Okay... I faced a dilemma last night.
The Safeway (grocery store chain) stores around here have excellent customer service.
Even the people in the express lane will ask if you'd like help out to your car. :-)
It's kind of funny at times. I'll go in and buy lunch from the deli and a drink from the impulse-buy fridge near the register, and they might ask if I need help out to the car.
But last night was a bit different. I had gotten some groceries for a friend, as well as a few things for myself. When I got to the register, I had 3 gallon jugs (milk & water), six [6-packs] of water bottles (they were on sale for $1 a pack!) and various other assorted items (maybe six bags full).
Did I need help? Yes. I was tired. The bottles seemed heavy, even though the cashier put each thing in individual bags for me so I'd have handles to lift them.
Did the cashier ask if I needed help? Of course. He actually seemed a bit concerned and asked two or three times if I was SURE I didn't want some help. (Did I look THAT tired/helpless/weak?)
Did I accept his offer? Of course not.
Why?
THAT, my friends, is a good question.
Was it because I didn't think I had any single bills to give someone a tip? I'm not even sure if they accept tips there, so I wouldn't have known what to do.
Was it because my van was a mess and I didn't want someone to see?
Was it because I'm so picky and knew that I wanted some things in the back of the van and other things in the side area and didn't feel like giving direction to someone about exactly what I wanted?
Was it because it was cold and rainy and I felt bad for inconveniencing someone in bad weather?
Was it because it was late at night and it looked like they were short-handed?
Was it really a combination of all of the above...
OR am I just becoming so independent that I'm incapable of receiving help, and so I make excuses so as not to "inconvenience" someone?
I think I'm still okay. Whenever there is a capable gentleman around who offers, I allow him to help me as much as he is able.
ALTHOUGH... come to think of it, if he's not in the process of doing the thing that he offers to do, I usually continue doing it myself and say "that's okay" or "thanks; I'm fine". lol
i.e.: "You need some help there?" (spoken while he is seated and my hands are full) vs. "Here; let me help you with that" (spoken as he rises from his seat, moving swiftly to help "rescue" me).
or "Would you like to sit down?" (spoken while he is reclining in the last seat in the house) vs. "Have a seat, ma'am" (spoken while rising from his chair and going to the kitchen to bring in another chair).
Perhaps that's what it was last night. There was no one around, and I knew I'd have to wait for help and inconvenience someone, etc. Maybe I'm not as far gone as I thought I was.
There's a grocery store in Mississippi (Brookshire's) that has enough baggers until every customer receives escort from the store into the parking lot. The baggers are not allowed to receive tips. After they bag your groceries, they stand there with their hands on your cart and wait for you to finish your transaction, and then begin pushing the cart out the door. The first time this happened to me (a couple years ago), I freaked OUT. lol I was like, "My purse is in there; I'll push the cart, thank you." but the guy still insisted that he would walk out with me to bring the cart back in when I was finished. I slowly thawed out over time to the concept that there was someone available to help me every time, and came to love that grocery store.
Any other ladies have any "I'm Miss Independent" stories?
:listen:
:roll: Too many to bore you with.
Yet another thing I need to work on.
:beret:
I'm not sure I understand... what is the problem here?? lol
I don't like to put people out. If I can do it, why shouldn't I?
the problem is with knowing how to graciously allow someone else to be kind to you.
when you are used to doing for yourself, it's hard to allow someone the pleasure of doing something for you. living in the city, it's hard to trust someone who is being kind.
okay, this will make me look old, but i remember when i was growing up (when stores were closed on Sunday and the busses didn't run) and the baggers ALWAYS packed your groceries and helped you to the car with them. no one thought anything of it. then it got to be too expensive for stores to hire baggers so everyone bagged their own. the next time i saw such a helpful phenomenon was in Thorp at IGA where they will call a bagger to the front and have them bag your groceries and take them to the car. of course, in Thorp everyone knows everyone and they're all related so it's like "Kyle, you wanna come help Aunt Betty out with the cart?" And, not only is Kyle getting paid for it, but Aunt Betty is marking her words that boy is nice and come graduation she'll make sure to remember him. ;) even i knew the kid who was bagging the day i went there. life is so slow there that it's not a problem and considered an honor to be helpful.
moral of the story: slow down. let people be nice to you and then do something nice for someone else. forget your independance. it's not all it's cracked up to be!
letting people be nice to you and having them work for you are different
they were nice to offer, and she was gracious about letting them offer... but then she was nice to them and saved them from having to do anything :biglaugh:
I don't consider it independence in a "I don't need you, I can do it all by myself, stop treating me like I'm helpless" feminazi type way
more like non-laziness and not wimping out just 'cause you're female
True that Amelia!
Sounds like I could've posted that, Rainbow. Hmm...
My brother has to remind me to not be so "independent." He tells me that he enjoys helping people when he can and he offers when he can...women and men. There's more, but another time...
I have "independent" problems when I'm at a car shop or getting my oil changed. "Hi, I don't want anything but my oil changed...please don't offer."
I haven't weighed in on this subject until now..the 'Miss Independent Stance Syndrome' "MISS" :) is a product of both society and individual lifestyle choices.
I've dated an Apostolic Lady who _hated_ having the door held open for her, except on special occasions..she didn''t change me. :)
Those Ladies who prefer to do most things yourselves are typically either over 22 and never been married, or if you're still in college, have a firmly set mind on much of what you want to do in life. Or, perhaps, divorced/widowed from a relationship where the guy was a jerk, and tends to make the woman reluctant/bitter about trusitng guys.
So, you have spent more years alone than the young woman who gets married th summer after high school, or after her first year of Bible College. Being alone means doing things your own way, and getting accustomed to being more solitary in your decision making (not saying ths is wrong-just a fact as I see it.)
Thus, even if you don't have the "femi-nazi" attidtude Lady Amelia described above, you probably have a certain order/way/manner you want Task X to be done in, and correctly consider you yourself are most capable of doing it in the manner you wanted.
Even as a gentleman, I have had to make some accomodations to modern times. For instance, a gentleman five or six generations might not have taken "no thanks," or even "No way!," for an answer..he might have forced the Lady to accept his help..it's the kind fo situation a guy trying that today would get to have a chat with the local law enforcement for.
The stark realities of crime (more so in the metro areas, but to some extent even in smaller cities,) has quite understandably made Ladies look askance, even with skepticism/pessimism/alarm, at the approach of a man they don't know.
A couple of recent incidents comes to mind..I was filling the gas tank, talking to a Lady I knew who was doing likewise..of course, I did not offer to pump her gas for her..we both went into the store, and I got in line to pay.
She may have went and got something else, and got in line behind me. I stepped aside and motioned for her to go ahead, which she was reluctant to do, despite my statement of "Ladies should go first." The clerk, who knew me, told the woman something to the effect of "you won't win, I know him." She then, although reluctant and perhaps a bit irritated, went on ahead of me.
Some nights later, I exit a store, and see a woman approachng the entrance from perhaps 20-30 feet away. I step back to the door and open it for her. She never gave any indication of what I had done, or that I existed, unless the not-completely-beaming expression she had on her face was a negative one to me or my action.
I will not change..I do not have to.. I like the Olde ways. But, I can see how women whp spend so many years 'on their own' have trouble letting someone help them.
It's also part of what makes us unique..there are some women I would be too old-fashioned for, and they can be perfectly nice women. However, there are still some Ladies that appreciate the old touches of courtesy.
John :waving:
Good post John.
I noticed that this morning though. I carried in a box of books related to mental health.. around seven thirty when I came in. I went out to get the second box around nine thirty (my boss's husband was here) and when I left, he asked if I needed help. I let him know I could get it - although I knew it'd be much easier for him and the box is heavy but I was capable. However, he was kind and came anyway saying he could at least hold the doors and when we got to the car, he did bring in the box. I appreciated it and let him know - I don't want to beg or be seen as needy but if the gesture is made - I do respect it. Men who are gentlemen are rare and although I am an independent and capable woman, I still want to be a lady - it's not absolutely necessary.. I don't think any less of men who don't hold the door for me or go the extra mile for a task - but I appreciate and admire those who do in a society where it's misinterpreted at times by some. Men aren't saying 'let me do this because I don't think you can' - I see it more as 'let me do this for you just because I can' .. If there were the least bit of insinuation that I couldn't do a task and that's why they insisted on it, I might be insulted but if it's obviously something I couldn't do easily enough, I'm realistic and would appreciate it.
Anyhow. I don't know if that made any sense whatsoever but I'm done work now and I'm headed home.
Quote from: Rae on March 01, 2007, 07:48:46 PM
Men aren't saying 'let me do this because I don't think you can' - I see it more as 'let me do this for you just because I can' .. If there were the least bit of insinuation that I couldn't do a task and that's why they insisted on it, I might be insulted but if it's obviously something I couldn't do easily enough, I'm realistic and would appreciate it.
Good way of putting it, Rae! :thumbsup2:
And John, that was an excellent post! Your understanding of the safety side of things was right on target. I'm very leery of men I don't know offering help. I can't help but wonder what they want from me. But at the same time, I can often tell a difference just in the way they offer whether it is just a kind offer or an attempt to get something from me.
:beret:
Quote from: Newsman on March 01, 2007, 07:35:21 PM
I will not change..I do not have to.. I like the Olde ways.
Good. :-) There aren't many gentlemen left.
Quote from: Newsman on March 01, 2007, 07:35:21 PM
But, I can see how women whp spend so many years 'on their own' have trouble letting someone help them.
The hard part for me is that I often say "no thanks" the first time a gentleman offers his assistance, in hopes that he will persist just a little and let me see that he is really serious and not just trying to do the polite thing in offering his assistance. By the time I realize that I really DO need help, the guy is usually a light year away because he was scared that I'd actually say I needed help, so he ran away as soon as I shook my head and said the "that's o..." part of "that's okay."
When I lived at home, I actually kind of leaned almost to the total opposite end of the spectrum, as I had my brother around and could ask for help from a strong, good-looking guy anytime I needed it. :biglaugh: I learned that it was awesome not to have to carry heavy things. I got spoiled when he would go to the grocery store with me and load most of the heavy stuff in the car and carry it in the house with such a wonderful, helpful attitude. (his wife is a lucky lady!)
It was kind of funny when I started hanging out with a guy who was interested in me. I found that he took me to be a bit on the bossy side when I would ask for his help in what I thought was a mild-mannered way. He had no sisters, and wasn't sure how to do the whole gentlemanly thing sometimes. If we started out the door and I was carrying several things and he had nothing to carry, I would turn to him and say, "would you mind helping me out a bit, please?" I actually got irritated that someone who claimed to be interested in me didn't even bother to ask if I needed help when I was obviously carrying something heavy. He didn't last long. lol
Quote from: Newsman on March 01, 2007, 07:35:21 PM
However, there are still some Ladies that appreciate the old touches of courtesy.
John :waving:
Yup. We sure do. Problem is that sometimes we have trouble being able to *accept* them. Keep being patient with those ladies, John. If enough gentlemen arise, perhaps the ladies will soon come out of hiding. :-)
Quote from: Rae on March 01, 2007, 07:48:46 PM
Men aren't saying 'let me do this because I don't think you can' - I see it more as 'let me do this for you just because I can' .. If there were the least bit of insinuation that I couldn't do a task and that's why they insisted on it, I might be insulted but if it's obviously something I couldn't do easily enough, I'm realistic and would appreciate it.
YES! That's PRECISELY correct, Rae! It's all in the attitude. If his attitude in his help makes me feel protected, safe and/or special, then I'm more prone to accept his help. If he makes me feel inferior or incapable, I'm much more inclined to get angry at his offer to help and refuse to let him do a thing for me.
Quote from: RainbowJingles on March 01, 2007, 11:35:04 PM
Quote from: Rae on March 01, 2007, 07:48:46 PM
Men aren't saying 'let me do this because I don't think you can' - I see it more as 'let me do this for you just because I can' .. If there were the least bit of insinuation that I couldn't do a task and that's why they insisted on it, I might be insulted but if it's obviously something I couldn't do easily enough, I'm realistic and would appreciate it.
YES! That's PRECISELY correct, Rae! It's all in the attitude. If his attitude in his help makes me feel protected, safe and/or special, then I'm more prone to accept his help. If he makes me feel inferior or incapable, I'm much more inclined to get angry at his offer to help and refuse to let him do a thing for me.
now see that might be when I'd take them up on it 'cause then I wouldn't feel bad for having them do something that I can do LOL
I understand wanting to be allowed to help someone, that desire goes both ways... but I like to be truly useful and helpful... not just that they are letting me help but that they actually need it
and if I actually need help, I will go get it and allow it and appreciate it... and if I'm able to skip the go get it part, all the better!!! lol
opening doors... if I really get there first I open the door and will hold it for whoever is behind me regardless.... however ;) I am pretty good at lagging well in advance of reaching the door to ensure that the guy gets there first and I don't have to move out of the way for him to open it LOL
Quote from: Amelia Bedelia on March 01, 2007, 11:58:55 PM
opening doors... if I really get there first I open the door and will hold it for whoever is behind me regardless.... however ;) I am pretty good at lagging well in advance of reaching the door to ensure that the guy gets there first and I don't have to move out of the way for him to open it LOL
BUT there are some guys who haven't quite mastered the whole holding the door open thing. lol I feel bad for them, because they're holding the door open for a lady and THERE'S NO WHERE FOR HER TO GO because he's standing IN the doorway! Makes me want to laugh.
Guys: if you're listening (and apparently not many of them have found this thread yet): When you hold the door open for a lady, move behind the door at least a bit so she can walk in and not feel like you're in the way or she's invading your space.
Sometimes we are on the inside of the door, so then we just hug the door and let them come on in....
Quote from: nwlife on March 02, 2007, 12:32:35 AM
Sometimes we are on the inside of the door, so then we just hug the door and let them come on in....
hmmm something seems off here... why not hug them instead? seems like that would be nicer than a... door
:biglaugh:
because some of them are total strangers or married....
I've actually been known to get upset at strangers who - in the name of politeness! - expect me to squeeze by them in a tight doorway . I'll wait for them to let go of the door, or step back "politely" myself until they get the message, or purposely use another door, because sometimes there's just not room and the guy is oblivious to that fact. Take the extra couple seconds and move out of the way in some way, shape or form. :mad:
*gets down off her pet peeve soap box*
I will do my best to step out of the way, but if i can't, i hug the door and hold in my gut so they can slide past...
*** had to reedit the post to make it readable***
(I really hate these editor programs sometimes, but unfortunately they are neccessary)
Quote from: nwlife on March 02, 2007, 01:13:51 AM
I will do my best to step out of the way, but if i can't, i hug the door and * Wash my mouth out with soap * in my gut so they can slide past...
:laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:
:laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:
:laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:
:laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:
:laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:
:laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:
Quote from: nwlife on March 02, 2007, 01:13:51 AM
I will do my best to step out of the way, but if i can't, i hug the door and * Wash my mouth out with soap * in my gut so they can slide past...
:laughhard: Sorry, we all know you meant "hold in" your stomach, it's just that when I saw that I instantly got a picture of you with a bar of soap in your mouth with soap bubbles foaming all around.
I have no problem with a man being a gentleman, holding a door open, letting me go ahead of him in line, etc. things that are done just to be a gentleman.
I do however, have a problem with a man trying to "help" me. Like Newsman said, probably due to my past, but not just a trust issue. It's more from having been made to feel like I would never be able to do anything on my own and now I guess I'm trying to prove I can. So when a man offers "help", I tend to not want to accept, or I want to repay him for the help.
On the other hand, if I had a husband, it would be different. I know that's sounds contradictive, because men like to feel needed, I guess we all do. But if I were to get involved in a relationship again, the first thing I would want understood would be that I don't
have to have a man in order to survive. I just don't want a man to get the impression that if I'm interested it's because I can't make it in this world without him, but that if I'm with him it's because I
choose to be, not because I have to be, and I'd want to know it's the same with him.
While I may enjoy my bugs and my snakes... I am not independent. Admittedly I MISS living with my parents, etc...
I hate driving on the snow. I hate messing with my car.
But I am somewhat askew at random guys asking to help... Trying to get better with the church guys and asking for help, etc though if I need it.
Nai
:offtopic:
Chinadoll!!! Been missing you, girl! You ok?
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 02, 2007, 02:06:09 AM
On the other hand, if I had a husband, it would be different. I know that's sounds contradictive, because men like to feel needed, I guess we all do. But if I were to get involved in a relationship again, the first thing I would want understood would be that I don't have to have a man in order to survive. I just don't want a man to get the impression that if I'm interested it's because I can't make it in this world without him, but that if I'm with him it's because I choose to be, not because I have to be, and I'd want to know it's the same with him.
I've been wondering lately if this doesn't have something to do with the high number of divorces we see today. It's interesting to me that in a time when a woman couldn't make it without a man, people stayed married. Now, divorce is the norm. The feminist will tell you that all those women before were being abused, etc., etc. Undoubtedly some were, but I'm wondering if a man's conscience didn't keep alot of those marriages together... him knowing that the wife and kids would likely starve without him. Nowadays, a man doesn't have to 'worry' about that, and look at the mess we're in.
I don't believe that's an accurate assessment brother. If anything it may force them to stay married because of love and working on the relationship rather than obligation. Maybe the men who would have only stayed out of obligation with out reguard for the Mrs. and kids now has a choice and chooses NOT to be vulnerable and have a real relationship that not's based on being the king of the castle but partner instead?
I'm not saying that's even true, but we could come up with a lot of ways to blame females and males alike- equally. So you have to pin point what happened first: Men being adulterous, abusers and abandoners, or simply dying for some reasong, leaving women to make it on their own, OR women being bent on surviving without a man. Or another variable that I haven't thought of right now.....
Quote from: wire2john on March 05, 2007, 04:27:08 AM
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 02, 2007, 02:06:09 AM
On the other hand, if I had a husband, it would be different. I know that's sounds contradictive, because men like to feel needed, I guess we all do. But if I were to get involved in a relationship again, the first thing I would want understood would be that I don't have to have a man in order to survive. I just don't want a man to get the impression that if I'm interested it's because I can't make it in this world without him, but that if I'm with him it's because I choose to be, not because I have to be, and I'd want to know it's the same with him.
I've been wondering lately if this doesn't have something to do with the high number of divorces we see today. It's interesting to me that in a time when a woman couldn't make it without a man, people stayed married. Now, divorce is the norm. The feminist will tell you that all those women before were being abused, etc., etc. Undoubtedly some were, but I'm wondering if a man's conscience didn't keep alot of those marriages together... him knowing that the wife and kids would likely starve without him. Nowadays, a man doesn't have to 'worry' about that, and look at the mess we're in.
It used to be extremely difficult for a woman to earn a living. While women could go to college and gain knowledge and skills to earn a decent living, the job opportunities and pay wasn't readily available. While this was fine for married women who depended on their husband's income to support them, it made it difficult for single women (You have to remember, there have always been women who have chosen not to marry, never had the opportunity, had legitimate divorces, and widows that have had to support themselves.). I believe while this may have kept the divorce rate low, it was also a factor in women feeling pressured to marry and compromising on their choice of a mate and at the same time it was a factor in men taking their wives for granted. While most men's conscience and sense of responsibility may have held a lot of marriages together, there was the minority that didn't live up to their responsibilities. I do agree that when the women are dependent on their husbands and husbands have the desire to take care of and provide for their family that the divorce rate will be minimal.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing for a woman to be dependant on a man. I'm saying I believe in a better way. Instead of men feeling as though women can't make it in this world without them, they have a desire to take care of their family out of love and compassion and a sense of responsibility. Instead of women feeling the need to get married in order to survive, choosing a man that she loves and wants to share the rest of her life with. Having respect for each other can have an influence on our divorce rate also. I would have no problem depending on a man and being a "helpmeet" to him if I felt like I was there because he wants me to be there and because I want to be there.
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 05, 2007, 03:23:49 PM
I'm not saying it's a bad thing for a woman to be dependant on a man. I'm saying I believe in a better way. Instead of men feeling as though women can't make it in this world without them, they have a desire to take care of their family out of love and compassion and a sense of responsibility. Instead of women feeling the need to get married in order to survive, choosing a man that she loves and wants to share the rest of her life with. Having respect for each other can have an influence on our divorce rate also. I would have no problem depending on a man and being a "helpmeet" to him if I felt like I was there because he wants me to be there and because I want to be there.
I like this.
I only read the first post. I don't have any problem accepting help. If they offered, I'm assuming they WANT to help, so I let them. We tip our carry-out-guys all the time. I don't know if they have policy against it, but I know the guys accept the $$.
I let them hold doors, chairs.. whatever! LOL.. I also do the same for them if they need it. :)
welll, I'm married but I'l give my 2 cents anyway!!
I think it is EXTREMELY important for a woman to be able to take care of themselves!! I know TONS of Apostolic girls that NEVER go to college and get married as soon as they're 18. If something happens to the husband, these women have virtually NO skills to be able to take care of themselves, let alone the half dozen children they had!!
I got my nursing degree. I got married at 29 and then CHOSE to stay home with my kids. It is a reassuring feeling to know that if something happened to my husband tomorrow, that I COULD support my kids if I had to......(and myself of course...) and that I wouldn't be stuck working a $6 hour job......
I pray nothing happens to my husband-----I rather enjoy him taking care of us.....it's just good to know that I can do it if I had to.............
sharon
Amen and amen! (To Sharon's post)
Quote from: terp on March 05, 2007, 04:54:05 PM
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 05, 2007, 03:23:49 PM
I'm not saying it's a bad thing for a woman to be dependant on a man. I'm saying I believe in a better way. Instead of men feeling as though women can't make it in this world without them, they have a desire to take care of their family out of love and compassion and a sense of responsibility. Instead of women feeling the need to get married in order to survive, choosing a man that she loves and wants to share the rest of her life with. Having respect for each other can have an influence on our divorce rate also. I would have no problem depending on a man and being a "helpmeet" to him if I felt like I was there because he wants me to be there and because I want to be there.
I like this.
I like it, too.
Quote from: Envelope on March 05, 2007, 08:11:27 PM
I pray nothing happens to my husband-----I rather enjoy him taking care of us.....it's just good to know that I can do it if I had to.............
Good point, Sharon, but there is a big difference between being able to do it if you have to...and being so independent that you try to do everything on your own. I've got a couple married friends that haven't made that switch very well.
And yes, I'm thankful to live in a culture/society where I can support myself. But that doesn't mean I want to. :)
:beret:
sippintea........your post made me smile...........
When my husband and I announced our engagement, my sister went OFF the deep end.....Grant it...we are BOTH nurses and she was already married with a child.......
She was like......."What are you thinking? How can you even think about staying home with kids?" etc etc etc.....
I seen the VAST difference in our choices. She feels she HAS to work to prove something........I am the opposite.....
I rather like the term "helpmeet".......it is exactly what we should be!!!
sharon
Hurray for Sharon!! :clap: :clap:
:beret:
Work and church and SCA Elona. That's pretty much it but it keeps me busy!
Nai
True independence aside from being able to walk on your own (Guy or Gal)
I believe is something like this
Woman- knowing you can walk by yourself and not having to have us there. but Surrendering and allowing us to try to walk beside you.
Man- surrendering the ability and enjoyment to run in the pack, and walking beside her.. Allowing your heart to care and be entangled by her.
Each gains a independence knowing they have someone to count on, having someone to walk beside... knowing there is someone to catch them when they spread the wings to fly and divebomb.
perfect brandon, perfect! :thumbsup2:
:great: Ditto
:beret:
Quote from: MellowYellow on March 05, 2007, 02:47:15 PM
I don't believe that's an accurate assessment brother. If anything it may force them to stay married because of love and working on the relationship rather than obligation. Maybe the men who would have only stayed out of obligation with out reguard for the Mrs. and kids now has a choice and chooses NOT to be vulnerable and have a real relationship that not's based on being the king of the castle but partner instead?
I'm not saying that's even true, but we could come up with a lot of ways to blame females and males alike- equally. So you have to pin point what happened first: Men being adulterous, abusers and abandoners, or simply dying for some reasong, leaving women to make it on their own, OR women being bent on surviving without a man. Or another variable that I haven't thought of right now.....
Men love differently than women do, and for different reasons. The concern I was describing is a kind of love. This is the first time I know of in history when women haven't held a "dependent" role in society. The common explanation is that men are stronger and used brute force to work things in their favor, now we're enlightened, etc., etc... but I'm skeptical about this explanation. Men are raised by women. Who has more access to influence over the young male mind than mothers? Look at what's happening in the black community. Black women have universal access to financial independence through state and federal programs. Is it just a coincidence that black men aren't marrying these women and raising their children in the kind of numbers considered normal in other racial demographics?
Quote from: wire2john on March 06, 2007, 12:08:21 AM
Quote from: MellowYellow on March 05, 2007, 02:47:15 PM
I don't believe that's an accurate assessment brother. If anything it may force them to stay married because of love and working on the relationship rather than obligation. Maybe the men who would have only stayed out of obligation with out reguard for the Mrs. and kids now has a choice and chooses NOT to be vulnerable and have a real relationship that not's based on being the king of the castle but partner instead?
I'm not saying that's even true, but we could come up with a lot of ways to blame females and males alike- equally. So you have to pin point what happened first: Men being adulterous, abusers and abandoners, or simply dying for some reasong, leaving women to make it on their own, OR women being bent on surviving without a man. Or another variable that I haven't thought of right now.....
Men love differently than women do, and for different reasons. The concern I was describing is a kind of love. This is the first time I know of in history when women haven't held a "dependent" role in society. The common explanation is that men are stronger and used brute force to work things in their favor, now we're enlightened, etc., etc... but I'm skeptical about this explanation. Men are raised by women. Who has more access to influence over the young male mind than mothers? Look at what's happening in the black community. Black women have universal access to financial independence through state and federal programs. Is it just a coincidence that black men aren't marrying these women and raising their children in the kind of numbers considered normal in other racial demographics?
what? what does race have to do with anything?
i am totally not following you here.
and as for women historically being independant, there are lots of examples of women throughout history who made their mark independantly. this is not a new thing.
:afro: "What's love got to do with it, got to do with it..." :freaky:
sorry, trav, this isn't the song on your mind thread. you are :offtopic: !! and i know about those things. :pwink:
sorry, kris, but who needs a heart when a heart can be bro-OOOHH-ken?
as a woman who is decidedly over independant, so they say, i must agree with you. who needs a heart?
:sing: oh no not i! i will survive! :sing:
...at least it's not raining men...!
what? ???
good thing it's not, God knows i have WAY TOO MANY men in my life as it is.
Quote from: newkris on March 06, 2007, 03:30:39 AM
what? ???
good thing it's not, God knows i have WAY TOO MANY men in my life as it is.
:o There is no such thing!!!!! :hypocrite:
oh honey, i got a couple for you, then! :pwink:
Quote from: newkris on March 06, 2007, 04:07:39 AM
oh honey, i got a couple for you, then! :pwink:
:shudder:
Quote from: newkris on March 06, 2007, 04:07:39 AM
oh honey, i got a couple for you, then! :pwink:
:clap: :hi:
Oooo! Oooo! Oooo!
What about ME!?!?!
Send one of them out to California, will ya?
Make him about 6 foot tall or so with a deep, intense love for God. While you're at it, find a strong, good-looking, brave, and confident one (the same one, actually, come to think of it; I'm aware that one is indeed enough for me). It'd be nice if he was a bit older than me and the kind of guy my Dad would approve of. :-)
Got any like that, newkris? :grin:
Quote from: newkris on March 06, 2007, 12:15:07 AM
what? what does race have to do with anything?
It has nothing to do with race per se, I'm using a particular problem as an example of the larger point I'm trying to make. At the NAACP's Gala to Commemorate the 50th Anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education Bill Cosby spoke about this issue. http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm
RJ - If Kris finds any like that .. make sure he has a younger brother. ;)
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 06, 2007, 04:03:02 AM
Quote from: newkris on March 06, 2007, 03:30:39 AM
what? ???
good thing it's not, God knows i have WAY TOO MANY men in my life as it is.
:o There is no such thing!!!!! :hypocrite:
:o :o :o :o
Quote from: Mel-Mel on March 06, 2007, 01:55:03 PM
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 06, 2007, 04:03:02 AM
Quote from: newkris on March 06, 2007, 03:30:39 AM
what? ???
good thing it's not, God knows i have WAY TOO MANY men in my life as it is.
:o There is no such thing!!!!! :hypocrite:
:o :o :o :o
:laughhard:
YOU know that's not like me! :nono: There are different ways you can have men in your life. I like having men (plural) in my life as in friends and family, that's what I was talking about.
As for as men "in my life", there will be 0 or 1, that's the only options. :grin:
Thats why I was like :o :o :o :o
LOL
Thanks for clairifying...you had me worried...I thought I was gonna have to come over and :pound: you
Quote from: Rae on March 06, 2007, 12:48:45 PM
RJ - If Kris finds any like that .. make sure he has a younger brother. ;)
Rae: I'll see what I can do. ;-) *looks around for a younger brother that might have an older brother... or vice versa. :-)
WAIT! What am I doing? I need to look for the OLDER brother first!
:roll:
What happened to those independent women?
When they get a whiff of testosterone they suddenly melt into a weepy pile of helpless, defenseless mush. :smirk2:
Quote from: Chseeads on March 06, 2007, 05:57:04 PM
When they get a whiff of testosterone they suddenly melt into a weepy pile of helpless, defenseless mush. :smirk2:
Oh no, not you too!! :pound:
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 06, 2007, 05:55:20 PM
:roll:
What happened to those independent women?
I have determined that independence is not something that I crave to the highest degree. I am willling to learn to become dependent on someone else to carry my new battery for my car. Those things are HEAVY, and I would have LOVED for some stranger to walk up to me and say, "may I help you to your car with that, ma'am?" I would have been like, "you are an ANGEL!!!" My independence in most areas is born of necessity. I'm ready for a new birth anytime God wants to give it to me!
Quote from: Chseeads on March 06, 2007, 05:57:04 PM
When they get a whiff of testosterone they suddenly melt into a weepy pile of helpless, defenseless mush. :smirk2:
Or they pull out a mallet and start beating the man INTO mush, it seems. :smirk2:
Defenseless?
:tank: :tank: :tank: :tank: :tank: :tank:
:uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi: :uzi:
:2gun: :2pistol: :uzi2:
:war:
Mush?
Ok, maybe you're somewhat right, but just a littel, teeny, tiny, little bitty bit. :roll:
:laughhard: :laughhard: You folks are cracking me up!
*wanders off still chuckling*
:beret:
mallet? who needs a mallet?
all you need is a :pwink: and they just melt!
Just know that, last night, while I was carrying my car battery, I would have become a defenseless pile of mushy oatmeal - or anything else, for that matter - if it had meant that some gentleman would have carried that stupid thing. The guy at the counter didn't even offer. He actually said, "do you need to leave this here and make two trips?"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ??? There was no cart or anything to put it in, either. Maybe guys in automotive stores in this part of the world just think that women are really really strong and can do whatever they want to do. At the other automotive place I had to go to recently, the guy carried my starters out to my car without even asking (yes, I bought two because I didn't know which one I needed). He just picked them up, made sure I had my receipt, and went outside with me. I thanked him profusely.
I have to admit, though, that I have given up on the helpless female "do you have jumper cables?" routine. As a matter of fact, I have graduated even farther than the "I have jumper cables; can you put them on and jump my car for me, please?" routine. I am now to the stage where I purchased a self-contained battery charger, and I know how to use it. I even know how to use it in the rain. :cool: :roll: The other day I *did* cast aside my independent facade long enough to ask a guy to help me push my car out of the way of traffic when it broke down in the parking lot. :hypocrite: Does that count for anything?
Quote from: newkris on March 06, 2007, 06:14:52 PM
mallet? who needs a mallet?
all you need is a :pwink: and they just melt!
Not all of em. I'm heat resistent. :smirk2:
I'm not melting...
I had two guys into the office today to set up the new fax & printers for the whole server - the wwires needed to be run through the panels in the ceiling. Buddy said he needed a ladder and that is what the maintenance man was for so he left them taped to the wall. *grin* I took care of it. Who needs a man? ;)
Oh and RJ - I have my own battery charger to in my trunk plus a set of tools - lol.
I don't have the tools yet. lol I keep thinking about taking a class in basic car maintenance and repair, though.
Of course, if I ever get married, the man in my life will never know that I know how to fix cars. lol
I should probably learn to change a flat someday, though, but it seems like, no matter WHERE you are, if you're a lady and have a flat tire, that men come out of NOWHERE to help. Of course, after the battery thing last night, my faith in the male sector of the species is waning.
I know how to change a tire. I haven't though. It happened once and there were three guys who volunteered - who am I to deprive them? ;)
Exactly. That's what always happens to me. I have the head knowledge, but I've never had to actually do it. I pray I never have to! lol
I cheat...AAA service can't be beat. Locked keys, car won't start, flat tire - the works. I, too, have thought about taking a mechanics class for the hey of it. I have already taken a welding class, so it can't be that bad!
Quote from: terp on March 06, 2007, 07:42:17 PM
I cheat...AAA service can't be beat. Locked keys, car won't start, flat tire - the works.
I'll join you on that one! :thumbsup2: Who wants to change a tire in slushy snow when all you have to do is make a phone call? :cool:
:beret:
Slushy snow? What's that? I forget.
:hypocrite:
Quote from: RainbowJingles on March 06, 2007, 06:16:47 PM
The guy at the counter didn't even offer. He actually said, "do you need to leave this here and make two trips?"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ??? There was no cart or anything to put it in, either. Maybe guys in automotive stores in this part of the world just think that women are really really strong and can do whatever they want to do. At the other automotive place I had to go to recently, the guy carried my starters out to my car without even asking (yes, I bought two because I didn't know which one I needed). He just picked them up, made sure I had my receipt, and went outside with me. I thanked him profusely.
Often we view these men that don't "come to a lady's rescue" at times like this as not being a gentleman. However, we can't assume that's the case with all of them. I wonder how many of these men have been yelled at by women who take offense to men offering assistance and had to listen to a speech about how "women are equal to men". I don't believe the majority of women are like this, but if I were in their shoes it probably wouldn't take too many times coming up against someone like that before I stopped offering. I also believe that
sometimes (in those cases where men are gentlemen and haven't given up on women) men are more likely to offer assistance to a woman that presents herself as a "lady".
Sad but true, some women may be to blame for whether a man is a gentleman or not.
Quote from: RainbowJingles on March 06, 2007, 07:45:49 PM
Slushy snow? What's that? I forget.
:hypocrite:
I'd be happy to send you some...we have a good 20 inches of brown snow to choose from. The only thing is that it might be water by the time it gets there. Hmm, how about a picture instead?!
My wife isn't helpless...... And occasionally, not really smart either. This is what happens when she starts lipping off to a homeland security officer.....
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/HomelandSecurity1.jpg)
LOL@ RandyWayne!!!
Your poor wife!!
sharon
<------ Me watching it happen
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 06, 2007, 08:00:31 PMmen are more likely to offer assistance to a woman that presents herself as a "lady".
I thought I looked kinda purdy yesterday. *sniff* You think I didn't present myself as a lady? I KNOW I didn't present myself as a man.
I'll have to figure out what to do differently next time. lol
Quote from: RainbowJingles on March 06, 2007, 10:10:24 PM
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 06, 2007, 08:00:31 PMmen are more likely to offer assistance to a woman that presents herself as a "lady".
I thought I looked kinda purdy yesterday. *sniff* You think I didn't present myself as a lady? I KNOW I didn't present myself as a man.
I'll have to figure out what to do differently next time. lol
:o Was it maybe something in between? :terminator:
Before I came into this church and started dressing the way I do now (like the way I slid around that? :grin: ) I probably could have lost count every week on how many times doors closed in my face when walking through behind a man. Now, I can't remember the last time that happened. :great:
Thats cause now you just look so Godly and cute, they have to hold it for you!
And plus, your older now....
*Runs and hides* :couch:
Tell ya what will make ya cry!
Of course I am ALWAYS in a dress, so it's pretty apparent I am a lady..........but a few months ago, my hubby and I went to the post office and I ran in while he stayed in the car with the girls. There are about 7 concrete steps going up to the door of the post office here (the non handicapped entrance). Anyway, I was about to the top step when a frail looking elderly man came limping up the steps.....I was going to get the door for HIM when he lunged in front of me....actually tripping on the top step...........to Open the door for ME!!! I profusely thanked him!!! I was thinking WOW, what a gentleman!!
I am sure some women (women's libbers) would have given the poor guy a tongue lashing!!
I was just awestruck that this poor elderly man, would do such a kind thing for me!!
sharon
In lieu of women and independence, this last post made me think... So, out of mere curiosity, what do you all consider a "women's libber?"
a woman's libber, in my opinion, is a woman who thinks she has to be equal to a man or better than a man in a man's job or a man's role.
i have seen many women lawyers try to compete with men and get frustrated because men don't have to deal with "family" issues like women do. well . . no kidding! it's not the way God made us. the women who realize that they can be intelligent and capable without having to compete with men are those who are happiest and who earn the most respect from their male peers. truly.
Quote from: newkris on March 06, 2007, 11:43:13 PM
a woman's libber, in my opinion, is a woman who thinks she has to be equal to a man or better than a man in a man's job or a man's role.
i have seen many women lawyers try to compete with men and get frustrated because men don't have to deal with "family" issues like women do. well . . no kidding! it's not the way God made us. the women who realize that they can be intelligent and capable without having to compete with men are those who are happiest and who earn the most respect from their male peers. truly.
very true.
the people who gain the most respect are those who excel at something--not those who force themselves into a situation to prove a point.
I like this that Sister Sharon posted: the Olde ways die hard.
As for Lady Elona's situation...the natural caution may have been heightened by where she lives..the San Francisco area..bastion of liberals wackos and bad appellate court decisions.
John :waving:
Quote from: Envelope on March 06, 2007, 10:30:03 PM
Tell ya what will make ya cry!
Of course I am ALWAYS in a dress, so it's pretty apparent I am a lady..........but a few months ago, my hubby and I went to the post office and I ran in while he stayed in the car with the girls. There are about 7 concrete steps going up to the door of the post office here (the non handicapped entrance). Anyway, I was about to the top step when a frail looking elderly man came limping up the steps.....I was going to get the door for HIM when he lunged in front of me....actually tripping on the top step...........to Open the door for ME!!! I profusely thanked him!!! I was thinking WOW, what a gentleman!!
I am sure some women (women's libbers) would have given the poor guy a tongue lashing!!
I was just awestruck that this poor elderly man, would do such a kind thing for me!!
sharon
A "Womans Lipper" is a woman who talks too much.
The "Lipper Dipper" and the "Big Lipper" are a group of stars that look like two women talking.
:laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:
good thing you don't teach science or sociology, trav. it appears you have taken the concepts of free flowing watercolors and mixing and matching acrylics and have applied it to sociology and science, which is an odd mix by itself.
but it makes a very nice word picture. :thumbsup2:
Sharon: Those experiences are quite humbling, aren't they? It really *does* make me want to cry.
Quote from: Newsman on March 07, 2007, 02:49:08 AM
As for Lady Elona's situation...the natural caution may have been heightened by where she lives..the San Francisco area..bastion of liberals wackos and bad appellate court decisions.
John :waving:
John: the interesting thing is that the conservatives and the old fashioned people out here seem to be very old-fashioned indeed, perhaps in response to the bastion of liberalism surrounding them. When I respond to someone's question, "how are you today?" with my usual "I am blessed," I get either a cold look or a frozen smile or a "WOW! That is AWESOME to hear someone out here talk like that. I really appreciate that..." etc etc etc. It's really interesting to respond like that out here, as opposed to the deep south (Mississippi), where everyone "grew up Christian". Of course, in the city, at certain times of the year, it's the kiss of death to respond like that, but I stay pretty much consistent with my response. :-) The point is that, not everyone out here is as steeped in liberalism as it's made out to be. Problem is that the press and the government is all leaning that way, apparently, so it ends up making everyone out here look bad.
Anyway... what was my point? lol
Basically, there are all different kinds of people out here. Yeah. Something like that.
I think it's time for me to get in bed. lol
What is the difference between a liberal and conservative believer?
wire2john:
A believer is a believer. Liberal and conservative are totally relative terms that I personally try not to use very "liberally" in reference to fellow believers. The Bible is the Bible. You either believe it and obey it or you don't. lol
In my post, I wasn't referring to believers in particular. I was more referring to the political and social liberalism and conservatism.
My main point was really that
the more wackos that you have in an area, the more it makes the people who want to be good feel the urge to be EXTREMELY good. :-)
Conservative and liberal labels have become pretty far removed from the words original meanings.
I am very "liberal" myself in that I like to do a lot to excess and not hold back as well as being able to at least understand the most extreme
viewpoints of an issue. Yet, politically, economically, and for the most part, religiously, I am by most measures, "an extreme Right-wing fanatic".
"Conservative" on the other hand is a very good description of people around my neck of the woods. Old farmers set in their ways, disliking ANY change, church going, yet wishing they could vote for a democrat because they "agree with everything the party stands for except abortion and gay marriages!". In other words, soak the rich (who is anyone who makes a nickel more than THEM) to give to the poor, and virtually no understanding of supply-side economics.
I tend to use the term "left wing" and socialist to describe liberals. Haven't come up with an equally good term for conservatives yet.
conservatives and liberials... I like to think that they are muppets being on two hands controlled by one brain...not a very smart brain either! :P
On my way to work this morning, one of my tires starts making a noise... thunk...thunk....thunk....
I was thinking, flat tire although it didn't feel like a flat. I stop, get out, check all the tires, feel around them, listen for air... nothing.
Back in the car, drive down the road and the noise changes, sounds like tap shoes, then shortly goes back to the thunk...thunk...thunk.
I stop again, feel around the tires (my hands are black by now), listen... nothing.
I get to work and park in customer parking because I have a feeling I'm going to need a tire changed before lunch. I get out of the car, and hear... hisssssssssssss. Now the tire talks, coulda told me that before. :roll:
I work at a bank corporate center, we have somewhere around 120-150 employees. I've got the word out that I need a tire changed. I know the men here are dressed up and don't want to get dirty, but I know many that keep an extra shirt in their office. The only volunteer so far... a woman. :o
Should I be surprised?
Now, Sister Mom, what I want to know is just how you know that many of the men keep an extra shirt in their office? :-? :o :ignore:
WOW, SisMom! Have you stopped to have your moments of thankfulness that you made it all the way to work without your tire going flat?!?!?!?!
That's awesome!
In this day and time alot of men have the idea they'd be seen as a male chauvinist if they offered to help. I wouldn't be surprised to hear a man (especially one in a supervisory position) could lose his job for such a blatant act of gender discrimination. It's too bad none of them offered to help, by the time you got through sueing the bank you might have gotten a new car and a promotion out of the deal. :biglaugh:
I can't think anyone would get fired for being kind to a friend or co-worker. Kindness never goes out of style...whether it's man or lady.
:beret:
Quote from: RainbowJingles on March 09, 2007, 05:20:38 PM
WOW, SisMom! Have you stopped to have your moments of thankfulness that you made it all the way to work without your tire going flat?!?!?!?!
That's awesome!
You better believe it!! :thumbsup2:
Quote from: SippinTea on March 09, 2007, 05:30:13 PM
I can't think anyone would get fired for being kind to a friend or co-worker. Kindness never goes out of style...whether it's man or lady.
:beret:
Unfortunately, there are some women out there giving us a bad rep, and have sued for much less. :roll:
Quote from: Chseeads on March 09, 2007, 05:07:21 PM
Now, Sister Mom, what I want to know is just how you know that many of the men keep an extra shirt in their office? :-? :o :ignore:
:hypocrite:
Actually, they usually have an extra polo shirt and slacks hanging on the back of the door to their office. Now, git yer mind outta the gutter. :biglaugh:
Quote from: wire2john on March 09, 2007, 05:26:55 PM
In this day and time alot of men have the idea they'd be seen as a male chauvinist if they offered to help. I wouldn't be surprised to hear a man (especially one in a supervisory position) could lose his job for such a blatant act of gender discrimination. It's too bad none of them offered to help, by the time you got through sueing the bank you might have gotten a new car and a promotion out of the deal. :biglaugh:
Funny thing is, several people suggest I ask my boss and said he'd more than likely do it. I just couldn't picture my boss out changing my tire, something just didn't seem right with that picture at all.
I finally got in contact with the man in charge of maintenance. When we went out to look at the tire, it was only a little low :o. He has a shop here with an air compressor and drove it there and refilled it with air and we think it will hold until I can go to lunch and get it down the road to a tire store. :great:
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 09, 2007, 05:38:12 PM
Quote from: Chseeads on March 09, 2007, 05:07:21 PM
Now, Sister Mom, what I want to know is just how you know that many of the men keep an extra shirt in their office? :-? :o :ignore:
:hypocrite:
Actually, they usually have an extra polo shirt and slacks hanging on the back of the door to their office. Now, git yer mind outta the gutter. :biglaugh:
:laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:
I don't remember the circumstances, but I can remember wanting to help a woman in a similar situation and then fearing it might be seen as inappropriate. If a woman asks for help it's ok, but just to offer because I'm a man and she's a woman has become taboo, unless of course she's 70 years old, we're talking about young able-bodied women.
Quote from: wire2john on March 09, 2007, 05:51:46 PM
I don't remember the circumstances, but I can remember wanting to help a woman in a similar situation and then fearing it might be seen as inappropriate. If a woman asks for help it's ok, but just to offer because I'm a man and she's a woman has become taboo, unless of course she's 70 years old, we're talking about young able-bodied women.
You sure about that?! :laughhard:
Did you get it fixed?
Quote from: Mel-Mel on March 09, 2007, 10:12:29 PM
Did you get it fixed?
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 09, 2007, 05:43:20 PM
I finally got in contact with the man in charge of maintenance. When we went out to look at the tire, it was only a little low :o. He has a shop here with an air compressor and drove it there and refilled it with air and we think it will hold until I can go to lunch and get it down the road to a tire store. :great:
Made it to the tire store, now I have all 4 new tires. It was way past due. :grin:
LOL
Looks like the car is ready for our next road trip....when do we leave? :freaky2:
BTW where did you go? I like Pepboys myself.
Quote from: Mel-Mel on March 09, 2007, 10:39:52 PM
LOL
Looks like the car is ready for our next road trip....when do we leave? :freaky2:
BTW where did you go? I like Pepboys myself.
You going somewhere? ???
Quote from: Sister_Mom on March 09, 2007, 10:42:08 PM
Quote from: Mel-Mel on March 09, 2007, 10:39:52 PM
LOL
Looks like the car is ready for our next road trip....when do we leave? :freaky2:
BTW where did you go? I like Pepboys myself.
You going somewhere? ???
HUH? Im not sure I get what you mean. Im kinda slow today.
You said "our" road trip, and I don't know of one, so I figured "you" are going somewhere.
oh....ding...
Yeah I might go somewhere...can I use your car?
My personal preference has always been to do things for myself as much as I can. Some of my independent spirit got curbed when I broke my back. Certain things now my back forces me to ask for help since I can't do heavy lifting.
Had something rather odd happen the other day...
I was approaching a door to a store, at the same time a man was coming up from the opposite direction...and seeing that we were both going to reach the door at about the same moment I slowed my walking just a tad to give him a chance to get there first. He suddenly stops (about 3 feet from the door), takes a step BACKWARDS, and waves his hand for me to go first. ??? So...I opened the door and stepped through. But then I couldn't very well let it slam in his face, so I ended up trying to hold the door open behind me until he grabbed it. *shakes head*
Somebody help me out here...what in the world was he thinking? ???
:beret:
Quote from: SippinTea on April 27, 2007, 05:25:03 PM
Somebody help me out here...what in the world was he thinking? ???
:beret:
or was he thinking should be the queston
lol
Consider if you will two options;
1) He was so smitten by the visage of your beauty he did not know what to do
2) He has become accustomed to women not wanting the door held open, so wanted you to go first, but not at the risk of causing a scene.
Other possibilities my sleep-deprived brain knoweth not.
John :waving:
:laughhard: Okay, I'm liking option one!
No, seriously, I'm not being rude or sarcastic...I really want to know what he might have been thinking. Was he trying to be a gentleman by letting me go first? Was he afraid of getting yelled at if he held the door open? Did he have back problems and was hoping I'd hold the door for him? LOL
*shrug* It doesn't really matter...just seemed a bit odd to me.
:beret:
Quote from: Newsman on April 27, 2007, 06:14:59 PM
Consider if you will two options;
1) He was so smitten by the visage of your beauty he did not know what to do
2) He has become accustomed to women not wanting the door held open, so wanted you to go first, but not at the risk of causing a scene.
Other possibilities my sleep-deprived brain knoweth not.
John :waving:
3) He's not a gentleman :smirk2:
Independent women are awesome....unless they brag about it.
Quote from: Sister_Mom on April 27, 2007, 06:54:08 PM
Quote from: Newsman on April 27, 2007, 06:14:59 PM
Consider if you will two options;
1) He was so smitten by the visage of your beauty he did not know what to do
2) He has become accustomed to women not wanting the door held open, so wanted you to go first, but not at the risk of causing a scene.
Other possibilities my sleep-deprived brain knoweth not.
John :waving:
3) He's not a gentleman :smirk2:
I'd think it was #2 or I'd just assume he didn't think of it because typically I don't unless the door is held for me and I'm pleasantly surprised. ;) But it happens so much (just holding the door behind me) that I've never thought about it.
One of the girls I travelled with through Cambodia and Vietnam was incredibly independent. I generally do my best to be a gentleman, but sometimes my offers are refused. For instance, when we went to Halong Bay, most of us only took a day pack, since we were only staying overnight. This particular girl wasn't sure if she wanted to stay longer though, so she took her entire back pack.
We arrived at the island we were staying on, and were faced with a couple of kilometers walk to our hotel, over a fairly steep headland. Seeing this pint-sized girl struggling with her large backpack, while I was carrying only a small daypack, kicked all my gentleman training into overdrive.
'Let me help you with some of that,' says I. Her reply flummoxed me:
'Why would you want to do that?'
In the end, I eventually was able to assist her by lagging behind the rest of the group with her, and carrying her water bottle, while she staggered up the hill carrying her back pack. My biggest fear was that my sister would find out, as I'm sure she would never let me hear the end of it! Wasn't quite the help I anticipated, but you do what you can. No wonder that chivalry today is dead - the stubbornly independent ladies were the ones who killed it!
Quote from: Ant on April 27, 2007, 11:24:31 PM
'Let me help you with some of that,' says I. Her reply flummoxed me:
'Why would you want to do that?'
:eek!:
Quote from: Ant on April 27, 2007, 11:24:31 PM
No wonder that chivalry today is dead - the stubbornly independent ladies were the ones who killed it!
:smirk2: Sad, but true, I'm afraid.
:beret:
I'm independent but I don't have a problem letting someone else do the work (ie. carry something heavy). *grin* She must have been out of her mind (I was going to say stubborn and a wee bit stupid *cough* but that's mean) to carry her bag when someone else had offered. Dad raised independent AND intelligent women.. lol - we know when to give up. ;)
Quote from: Rae on April 28, 2007, 12:25:16 AM
independent AND intelligent women.. lol - we know when to give up. ;)
know when to give up
and know when to not only give up but
smile real big
turn your head sideways
bat your eyelashes
and say "thank you sooo much.... *sigh* it must be nice to be so strong..."
and smile bigger but refrain from laughing when they blush :hypocrite:
Quote from: Rae on April 28, 2007, 12:25:16 AM
She must have been out of her mind (I was going to say stubborn and a wee bit stupid *cough* but that's mean)
hmm well I was going to agree if you were going to say it
Here's something I recall being brought up way back in discussions of holding doors open for women: the issue of a woman being uncomfortable when a man holds the door open for her while standing in it, thus she may have to brush up against him to get through the door being held open.
What I do when I see a situation like this (it doesn't always work out that your on the right side of a one-way door to open it in the traditional manner, I make a quick spot decision to either
1) Use the arm only while keeping the rest of the body as far away from the door as possible ( even in my advanced age, I still have a fair amount of strength,) so that I am not forcing her to brush against me to get through..or
2) Go ahead and walk through first, and hold it open from the other side.
John :waving:
Sir John, you bring up a valid point. And your two solutions make complete sense.
I can only speak from my perspective, not the other ladies on the forum...but in regards to feeling uncomfortable in close quarters, I'd have to say it all depends on the man holding the door. If he's given me the once-over as I'm approaching and/or has 'that' look in his eye, then yes, I'm very uncomfortable. But if I pick up that he's non-threatening and just being kind to hold the door open, then I'm okay with it.
I work with men all the time on the job and in ministry settings, and with (most of) those men close quarters don't make me feel threatened. With strangers, I guess I rely on whether or not I read anything questionable in their eyes or body language. *shrug*
My :twocents:
:beret:
I'll generally hold the door open for other people (even guys), especially if letting it close is going to be an inconvenience to them. Not many people do that here in Denmark though, so its neat to see people's reactions when they see other people going out of their way to be courteous.
Quote from: Amelia Bedelia on April 28, 2007, 03:16:32 AM
Quote from: Rae on April 28, 2007, 12:25:16 AM
independent AND intelligent women.. lol - we know when to give up. ;)
know when to give up
and know when to not only give up but
smile real big
turn your head sideways
bat your eyelashes
and say "thank you sooo much.... *sigh* it must be nice to be so strong..."
and smile bigger but refrain from laughing when they blush :hypocrite:
lol - I'm so not good at the whole batting your eyelashes. ;) And turning my head sideways always looks awkward. *grin*
From your avatar it looks like you've got the technique down pat. ;)
:beret:
I was gonna say somthing like that earlier when I read that, but I didnt....I should have known you would say it for me!
Quote from: Amelia Bedelia on April 28, 2007, 03:16:32 AM
smile real big
turn your head sideways
bat your eyelashes
and say "thank you sooo much.... *sigh* it must be nice to be so strong..."
LOL. You're a real heart-breaker, I can tell.
Quote from: SippinTea on April 28, 2007, 07:09:05 PM
From your avatar it looks like you've got the technique down pat. ;)
:beret:
lol _ I meant while flirting.. That's just a random picture. ;) And I always smile.. so that's out. ;)
The whole independant woman thing baffles me...I've always been dependant on someone, more often than not, it's my parents. It comes from having sporadic employment, living at home and not having a licence and never travelling more than a day's journey from home by myself (except for work). Mostly because of the discomfort it brings. Sheesh I'm a sheltered homebody. And courtesy and chivalry by people I know, impresses me rather than irks me.
Mind you, I do know what it's like to have a bit of a feminist streak. Like being really indignant when I'm told to help in the kitchen at greek family gatherings while the men just sit around talking (it still irks me quite a bit) and when people not related to me by blood, marriage or faith, do things for me even out of courtesy, I don't like it because it makes me feel like I owe them something.
Quote from: upcchris on May 04, 2007, 09:02:13 AM
The whole independant woman thing baffles me...I've always been dependant on someone, more often than not, it's my parents. It comes from having sporadic employment, living at home and not having a licence and never travelling more than a day's journey from home by myself (except for work). Mostly because of the discomfort it brings. Sheesh I'm a sheltered homebody. And courtesy and chivalry by people I know, impresses me rather than irks me.
Mind you, I do know what it's like to have a bit of a feminist streak. Like being really indignant when I'm told to help in the kitchen at greek family gatherings while the men just sit around talking (it still irks me quite a bit) and when people not related to me by blood, marriage or faith, do things for me even out of courtesy, I don't like it because it makes me feel like I owe them something.
At least enjoy that part that I made bold, if you don't enjoy it, your back in 20 years will really thank you for not lifting those heavy car parts, boxes or whatever up the stairs!!!
*grin* good point
Still, independance...I guess is a nice idea, but we all need someone we can depend on.
I'm very independant. But there's a part of me that would like depend on my helpmate. There's been a handful of attractive ladies that i've met, but something about them made it to where i didnt want to depend on them. There's a void that i have in my life that only a special person can fill. Eye candy i guess? :noo:
Time to pluck out them eyes brother :smirk2:
i'll just wear a blindfold :anon:
:laughhard: :laughhard: open mouth, insert foot :laughhard:
All women look good, some just only when I take off my glasses....especially since without them, the stigmitism limits the clarity to about 1 1/2 feet
(Yes I have decided to become more annoying....I might as well be)
Oooo, you are SO askin' to be pounded!!!
You'd best back-track really fast! LOL
:beret:
When I read that at first it looked like it said
Quote from: nwlife on May 21, 2007, 05:02:29 AM
All women look good, some just only want to take off my glasses....especially since without them, the stigmitism limits the clarity to about 1 1/2 feet
:laughhard: :laughhard:
Quote from: InChristGirl on May 21, 2007, 05:04:23 AM
When I read that at first it looked like it said
Quote from: nwlife on May 21, 2007, 05:02:29 AM
All women look good, some just only want to take off my glasses....especially since without them, the stigmitism limits the clarity to about 1 1/2 feet
:laughhard: :laughhard:
I like that quote, I like that quote!! :laughhard: :laughhard: :laughhard:
:spitlaugh: You guys are crazy tonight!!
:beret:
Quote from: SippinTea on May 21, 2007, 05:03:40 AM
Oooo, you are SO askin' to be pounded!!!
You'd best back-track really fast! LOL
:beret:
well I did find someone who would actually pound me today at work! :freaky2:
Brandon -- John would happily pound you.
And if you came to Indiana, I'd do the honors! I'd even take you to a place where several people would happily pound on you!
Nai
Lady Nai,
Brandon has his blue card, he wouldn't even have to sign a waiver to get :pound:
Going to any events this summer?
John :waving:
Hmmm...
And yeah, at least Simple Day and maybe Border Raids.
You should come here for Simple Day and then I can pound you!
Nai
Yeah!!! :pound: Newsman!!
:o Oops! Sorry, thought she said all the ladies should pound Newsman. :lol:
Only under one condition...
LOL
Nevermind.
Scratch that.
Nai
Awwwww!!! C'mon! Don't leave us hanging. :grin:
Nahhh....
*jabs Sister_Mom with the tip of her rattan sword*
Nai
Owwie! :-(
*Pokes Chinadoll with her plastic fork and runs and hides. * :biglaugh:
Still have some plastic forks hanging around? LOL Where is Anna?
Yeah, it was my only defense. I don't have a rattan sword. :smirk2:
Quote from: lojack on May 21, 2007, 04:53:55 AM
ok, eye candy wasn't a good choice of words.
Actually my sister uses that ...adjective? more often than not.
eye candy...
*pictures my eye with a tongue, licking a tootsie pop*
Hmmm...
i have thoroughly come to the conclusion that being an independant woman is COMPLETELY overrated and that men, at least some, like to be needed and enjoy being gentlemanly.
i think that a woman who doesn't enjoy a gentleman has missed something special.
this said after all week-end watching three very good friends in various seasons of relationships with very gentlemanly men. *sigh*
so very nice to see!
I enjoy being able to be independent (although not completely independent, because I'd never make it withou God), but I also thoroughly enjoy a man being a gentleman. :great:
I agree with Sister_Mom. I like that I am capable of doing pretty much anything I set my mind to without the assistance of a man; however, I really appreciate a gentleman. ;)
I'm with the last three lovely ladies that posted. I don't like being treated like I _can't_ do something, but I'm more than happy to let the men in my life take care of certain things. My latest fiasco with my car would be a perfect example. Thanks, God, for a Dad who cares and pays attention.
:beret:
Quote from: newkris on June 13, 2007, 12:19:10 AMi think that a woman who doesn't enjoy a gentleman has missed something special.
I agree, Newkris.
Wait! I don't have a gentleman TO enjoy!
What'd I miss?!?!
;-)
Seriously, though, I can really miss my brother sometimes, cuz he's an incredible gentleman. And since moving, I miss having single gentlemanly friends around. (It's a bit different somehow when your friend's husband offers to do something for you.)
I am also the type that enjoys being able to do things myself, but it is nice to have guy friends around that will help replace a doorknob or fix a toliet...not that I found any to do that for me, but it would be nice if they would. :smirk2:
What about the gentlemen you see daily around town that do the little things?
Sadly, they're usually over 60. LOL
:beret:
I dont see any of those, and what are you still doing at work? It is after 5....
You know, SisMom, I HAVE seen more than a few gentlemen 'round these parts... holding doors and such. It's just that they're never there when I need someone to carry a case of water into my apartment. And my husband is no help whatsoever. :tantrum:
Thats funny, Newsmans wife is never any help to him either....maybe they need to marry each other. :freaky2:
:spitlaugh:
:beret:
I've noticed less gentlemanly men here than back home; for instance, there, if any lady were near a door that a guy happened to be close to, it would be opened for her by the aforementioned gentleman. Here, it's actually surprising to have the door opened for you by a guy. ;) Maybe it's a big city thing. :biglaugh:
Watch it! I am NOT 60 years old: if women get that idea, I'll Never get another date with a 22 year old!
Hhmmmpppphhhhhhhhhh!!!!! :P
John :waving:
Quote from: SippinTea on June 13, 2007, 10:07:15 PM
Sadly, they're usually over 60. LOL
:beret:
Quote from: Newsman on June 14, 2007, 04:30:00 AM
Watch it! I am NOT 60 years old: if women get that idea, I'll Never get another date with a 22 year old!
Hhmmmpppphhhhhhhhhh!!!!! :P
John :waving:
Quote from: SippinTea on June 13, 2007, 10:07:15 PM
Sadly, they're usually over 60. LOL
:beret:
My post, Sir John, was in response to Sis Mom's...:P
Quote from: Sister_Mom on June 13, 2007, 10:03:04 PM
What about the gentlemen you see daily around town that do the little things?
So far as I know, I've never seen you 'daily around town'. Unless, of course, you've moved to Oregon recently. :biglaugh: And further more I never implied anything about you being 60. *laugh*
:beret:
Thats not what she told me Kind Sir, you should hear all the bad things she says about you on IM late at night!
*Hides from Ruby* :couch:
:o Lady SippinTea! How could you? :sadbounce:
John :-(
Mel!! :eek!: I'm horrified at you! :o (As well as speechless for the second time in the space of a week. LOL)
:beret:
What other time did I make you speechless?
It was someone else the first time.
And YOU, young lady, are in deep trouble for lying! *frowns hard*
:beret:
I was not LYING!! I was just properly exercising my media rights....
"You have the right to be misquoted"
:laughhard:
Quote from: Mel-Mel on June 14, 2007, 05:06:54 AM
I was LYING!! I was just properly exercising my media rights....
"You have the right to be misquoted"
:hypocrite:
Just helping Mel exercise her media right to BE misquoted.
Woohoo! :P
Thanks, Elona! *hug* ;)
:beret:
Anytime, Strawberry. :-)
:sadbounce:
I know I am more independent than I should be, but I guess that's how I've always been. If I ever wanted/needed anything I pretty much had to do it myself. I grew up learning to take care of myself. I find it very hard to allow people to do things for me.
My best friend is also this way. The only times we have ever really disagreed was because of this subject. He wanted to do something for me, or I wanted to do something for him. We both have learned to put our pride to the side and just smile and say "Thank you so much, I appreciate all you do for me" or some such thing. It's still not easy for me to ask for help, or even offer some that someone freely gives. Sis. Sandra reminded me of this very thing while in OK. It was at the time like a slap in the face, but it was one I needed. A wake up call that the reason why I struggle is because I try to do everything on my own. I can't survive unless I ask for help. And even more so, I have to allow that person to help me.
Now, what have I done... wasn't trying to slap anyone in the face ;)
LOL. I know you didn't mean to, but I'm glad you did. It makes me stop and think sometimes. Like tonight, my sister wanted to take me and mom out to eat. The normal me would be to say I'll pay, you're not going to, but I said thank you and ate my food like a good girl.
Also, once we got back to TX, someone else paid for our dinner. I had to be careful at my reaction although I still didn't sound as grateful as I should have. I know this isn't exactly the kind of thing that was meant when this thread was started, but it's true. I think financially is my worst downfall, because I don't want anyone to get me anything or buy me anything. Although, it's ok for me to spend 100 dollars on you even if I don't have it. You just can't give me anything in return. lol. That's just how I am, but I'm working hard on putting away my pride and being thankful
Quote from: teacheroftheLord on June 23, 2008, 03:45:55 AM
LOL. I know you didn't mean to, but I'm glad you did. It makes me stop and think sometimes. Like tonight, my sister wanted to take me and mom out to eat. The normal me would be to say I'll pay, you're not going to, but I said thank you and ate my food like a good girl.
Also, once we got back to TX, someone else paid for our dinner. I had to be careful at my reaction although I still didn't sound as grateful as I should have. I know this isn't exactly the kind of thing that was meant when this thread was started, but it's true. I think financially is my worst downfall, because I don't want anyone to get me anything or buy me anything. Although, it's ok for me to spend 100 dollars on you even if I don't have it. You just can't give me anything in return. lol. That's just how I am, but I'm working hard on putting away my pride and being thankful
I think you and I are a lot alike in this way as well. I so could have written this paragraph that you wrote. I didnt really look at it as a pride thing though... but i guess it is kinda... I really would have a much easier time paying for stuff and giving, than i would getting, or having mine paid for. I dont understand myself most of the time... lol, but thats the way i am.
It took me a long time to admit it was pride. It isn't in one way, it's just the way I was raised, but at the same time it is. Hmmm
Normally when I know someone else is paying, I make a joke about looking for the most expensive thing on the menu, but really I look for the least expensive.
In my defense, it's better to give than to receive. :grin:
:grin: you bet!
then its not like you feel like you owe them anything either...
Yeah. lol.
But I'm independent in more ways than financially. It's just that my other issues stem from deep issues that I don't want to discuss on here. lol. So, it's easier to talk about money.
Quote from: Newsman on June 14, 2007, 04:30:00 AM
Watch it! I am NOT 60 years old: if women get that idea, I'll Never get another date with a 22 year old!
John :waving:
22 year old? Why do you specify a 22 year old? *Looks on the calendar to see who is 22....*
Chel...speaking of...did I properly thank you for Steak and Shake? I was really out of it that night, so if I didnt, Im sorry, and...Thanks a whole lot. ;) *HUG*
Steak and shake? What did you shake?
Her steak of course!
No, all I had was a shake. A strawberry one. :)
Quote from: teacheroftheLord on June 23, 2008, 03:45:55 AM
LOL. I know you didn't mean to, but I'm glad you did. It makes me stop and think sometimes. Like tonight, my sister wanted to take me and mom out to eat. The normal me would be to say I'll pay, you're not going to, but I said thank you and ate my food like a good girl.
Also, once we got back to TX, someone else paid for our dinner. I had to be careful at my reaction although I still didn't sound as grateful as I should have. I know this isn't exactly the kind of thing that was meant when this thread was started, but it's true. I think financially is my worst downfall, because I don't want anyone to get me anything or buy me anything. Although, it's ok for me to spend 100 dollars on you even if I don't have it. You just can't give me anything in return. lol. That's just how I am, but I'm working hard on putting away my pride and being thankful
I know how you feel on this one!
Umm, if I'd used the age of my last date, it might have caused more than just you to be curious, plus cause you to have one your rare scared moments...however, I'll amend my statement!
see my revised statement in the (mis)quote below!
John :waving::bustamove
Quote from: Newsman on June 14, 2007, 04:30:00 AM
Watch it! I am NOT 60 years old: if women get that idea, I'll Never get another date with a 21 year old!
John :waving:
[/size]
22 year old? Why do you specify a 22 year old? *Looks on the calendar to see who is 22....*
[/quote]
:smirk2: Well, I'll be......
be what? 22?
I guess
When? :freaky2:
Hmph!
That hardly qualifies as an answer, you know. lol
Quote from: teacheroftheLord on June 23, 2008, 03:45:55 AM
Also, once we got back to TX, someone else paid for our dinner. I had to be careful at my reaction although I still didn't sound as grateful as I should have. I know this isn't exactly the kind of thing that was meant when this thread was started, but it's true. I think financially is my worst downfall, because I don't want anyone to get me anything or buy me anything. Although, it's ok for me to spend 100 dollars on you even if I don't have it. You just can't give me anything in return. lol. That's just how I am, but I'm working hard on putting away my pride and being thankful
That's actually a BIG DIFFERENCE between my culture (white Aussie) and my hubby's (professional class Chinese from Hong Kong)
We are more like "Lets go dutch" or "I'll pay this time, you pay next time"... In his culture, people make a bigger deal out of paying. And it's not always "fair" like that. There have been times where we took someone out and my husband insisted on paying, and instead of being grateful, our guest acted like it we should have let them pay instead - that attitude is actually SOOOOOOOO rude and ungrateful in my hubby's culture, where as in mine, it's somewhat normal.
It's also more important in my hubby's culture to REALLY say "thank you" after people buy you a meal - even if it is a sibling or a parent, even if it's "their turn" or something like that. People here in Hong Kong will generally say thank you probably at least 5 times!! It's reeaaallyyy different - but if you don't understand the other culture, it's really easy to be misunderstood, even with good intentions, and then you appear to be rude when you were just being "normal" for your culture.
Yeah. That's why if you're planning to interact with someone of another culture you spend time learning about them. It's so easy to offend if you don't know the culture.
I could probably unintentionally offend whether I knew the culture or not... ;)
True. However, it does make it easier if you know something about the background of the person you are communicating with.
For sure.
Quote from: practicalme on June 24, 2008, 05:28:38 PM
I could probably unintentionally offend whether I knew the culture or not... ;)
Me, too! Most of the time. I have asked people of other cultures loads of questions. It makes them feel good that you care, that they can teach Americans something while in America, and that you don't want to insult them.
The Arab guy, I babysat for, cracked up at me when I told him I had studied comparative religions mainly because I didn't want to say anything stupid and insult others.
I did get told off by a ten-year-old when I had handled their family Koran without washing my hands first. Those books are beautiful like the old illuminated manuscripts you see in museums.
:teeth: i do the same thing, when i am anything but happy and am at the store its like a challenge to me, no i dont need help i have two hands and am perfectly capable of doing what i need to, i think to me it shows a side of weekness they might not intend for it to be that way, when they ask, but if im mad, im thinking , what the heck does this person think im a invalad, when im sick its like, sighhhhh, no i can do it, stubburness bigtime, and when im stressed out its a power issues in my mind, i will take my own groceries ty very much, course them being just nice and helpfull doesnt cross my mind in the least, `lol :pound:
Stubborness? Did someone say my name?
Lol, it's true, I can be really stubborn about things too, not to an independant stance - as in I can do it myself. Except when at dinner people put stuff on my plate - it's a pet peeve, I can do it myself and I'll take the pportions I want from the dishes I want to eat. But usually I'm not fussed when people do stuff for me.
But when I broke my elbow recently, it was a bit of a lesson in humility and gratitude, I couldn't use my left arm at all, I really had to depend on others to do stuff for me, from assistance with hair, clothes, cutting my meat, and other stuff into bite-size pieces, thankfully I could pull on my uggs without much trouble. But it was a bit embarassing to need the help, when you're used to being self sufficient in the more minor things...but like I said, a lesson in humility and gratitude. And also that you don't know what you have until you don't have it any more, even if it's temporary incapacitation of a left arm.
Chris? How on earth did you break your ELBOW?!!??!
Are you okay??
lol, yeah I'm ok, still can't stretch my left arm out as much as my right and it still gets stiff and sore sometimes, and I still can't pick up heavier objects, I'm sure I posted it on ask upcchris. I broke it on April 1st (yes I broke my funny bone(not really) on April Fools day, only I wasn't fooling) I slipped and fell badly on my lunch break right outside the front door of my work. I could feel myself slipping and put out my hands to regain my balance or to break my fall, neither happened and I landed quite heavily on my arms and fractured my left elbow. I had two months off work and quite a bit of physio to get all better...well mostly. I'm back at work now, praise God! And I can do most of that stuff myself now, again Praise God!
Goodness! :o Sounds like you had a rough time for sure!
**HUGS** Chris
Quote from: practicalme on June 24, 2008, 05:28:38 PM
I could probably unintentionally offend whether I knew the culture or not... ;)
I think whenever you have a lot to do with another culture, both sides will "offend" at times - but generally people are understanding and they know you don't mean it and people "get over it" pretty quick! The key is to be adaptable, flexible, willing to learn and do things a bit differently. When people have an attitude "This is how I do it, so this is the best way. I'm not gonna listen to another perspective, EVERYONE I know has ALWAYS done it this way", they can't learn anything from ANY other culture... but when people are curious and interested and willing to learn and try something different, little "mistakes" and misunderstandings are no big deal!!
Nik, you're post reminded me of a quote by Dr. Jeffers: Blessed are the flexible for they will never get bent out of shape. lol, we watched a dvd BOTT 2007 yesterday and he was preaching on intimacy with God...wow, that was an awesome message.
Aww thanks Elona, at least I got some paid downtime, I'm ok now, but thanks **HUGS**
Quote from: upcchris on June 26, 2008, 02:57:22 AM
Blessed are the flexible for they will never get bent out of shape.
Great quote - it's sooooo true... People get aggravated and all that not because of situations, but because of their OWN attitude and mindset...
Quote from: nicolejoy on June 26, 2008, 03:02:00 AM
Quote from: upcchris on June 26, 2008, 02:57:22 AM
Blessed are the flexible for they will never get bent out of shape.
Great quote - it's sooooo true... People get aggravated and all that not because of situations, but because of their OWN attitude and mindset...
Tis true!
;)
I read this thread over again. It amused me.