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Apostolic Truth Questions

Started by Brother Dad, May 15, 2008, 12:00:19 pm

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Brother Dad

I enjoy a good Bible Study.  However it has came to my attention that there are certain ones here on God Place that are here to try and stir up confusion.  I have noticed no matter what the answer to a question is say will try to twist it around some how and make it confusing.  The Bible say:  Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

In light of this I have decided that from now on I will not answer a thread dealing with the Oneness of God.  I will however accept PM with a question.  I will pray over them and if God shows me to answer I will.  I will no longer be a tool that Satan and these people can use to promote their confusion.  I would encourage all Apostolics to refrain from getting into these discussions with these people.  Let us have good clean fellowship. 

There are many other things in the Bible we can discuss but when it leads to an attack on the truth, let us refrain from it.  This is only my feeling and my suggestion.  Of course I in no way can tell you what you must do.  I just wanted everyone to know where I stand. 

I have made many good friends on this post and I have gotten some Words from the Lord while on this post.  So I am glad we have it.  But just as with anything else if the Devil can find a way to mess it up he will surely try to.  The Bible tells us:  2 Cor 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

So as we see satan working let us shut him down in the name of Jesus Christ.

God Bless you all and Thank God for a place like God Place where we can meet true Apostolics from other places.  As a matter of fact gotta go now and meet up with a couple from GP.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Scott

:copcar:


*shrug*


Yes I deleted a number of posts and I do not apologize for it.

I do not thing that Bro dad was making any accusations against anyone in particular, he didn't call anyone out by name nor did he point his fingers at anyone. He simply stated openly that  he was abstaining from certain types of threads. If nothing else he put himself on notice and now has to live up to his word. 

Lets face facts... Godplace and other Forums do get their share of folks with Axes to grind and dissension to spread.  In fact some of our posters have gone to forums for other denominations and did the exact same thing and bragged about it on Godplace. The key is to identify those and ignore them.

I think it best if we all just back down a bit and not assume that he is pointing a finger at you or you or you or you or even you.




"I find your lack of faith disturbing." (Vader)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf (Orwell and Churchhill)


The Never Ending Battle

yosemite

May 16, 2008, 10:14:02 pm #2 Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 11:49:12 pm by yosemite
i also feel as bro dad does, although i might post, it is my concern that apostolic oneness be carefull as to what they listen to and post.

just as scot said, we should learn who is not of like faith,or is subject to argument, and ignore them. since this is an apostolic site, if i see a post that strikes interest, or concern, or if i just have a question, i may post, or maybe not.

though i will not be subject to un-neaded debate anymore.(i admit to debateing too much before)

                                     
(it is un-like me to give up ground to un-like beleivers)

as i have stated before, i dont have the HG,but beleive firmly on oneness and am only just now growing in the knowledge of the word. i do not wish to be led astray.

which bring me to this:  thanks Brother Dad for the study material...yo

My conscience is captive to the Word of God.Thus I cannot and will not recant, for going against my conscience is neither safe nor salutary. I can do no other, here i stand, God help me. Amen      -Martin Luther

Q-tip

May 17, 2008, 04:23:38 am #3 Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 04:26:18 am by Q-tip
QuoteApostolic Truth Questions


I suppose this is the subject for this discussion thread.



The funny thing about "truth" (  referring to individual perspectives ) is that it all comes from the same place.   Regardless of the number of beliefs on any one subject, they are all scripturally sound to the individual presenting them.  Even within a single apostolic church you will find several explanations on even the most fundamental beliefs including the "oneness" of the godhead.

It is no wonder that there is an issue of confusion.

So is it possible for people to get together and search the scriptures for an explanation that makes sense to all?   

Christ was always willing to discuss and fully explain his truth.  Should we not also be so willing to search and discuss our beliefs in a productive manner that is not offensive.

So what is the truth?  Is it my truth  Or  a different truth of someone else?   How can anybody know for sure what the truth is when there is not a cohesive approach to discuss and search for the answer that does not present confusion.


 
Could it be that I will reread this in a day or so and realize that I make no sense?  I dunno, I am just in a rambling mood.


Anyway, concerning truths:

For some time now I have been pondering some ideas that most would find ridiculous.  Not because they are not supported by scripture, but because they do not necessarily agree with what most would consider to be "truth".  Eventually I would like to present them in full but I just do not have the time to dedicate to such discussions at this time.

A quick summary of a couple of them:


Satan and his "fallen angels" are fulfilling a role God created them for.  They still answer to God (Satan presented himself to God along with the other angels in Job)  but Satan was given a certain amount of authority here on earth.  It is their purpose to represent that which is against Gods will (since God could not do this himself).  Thus creating free will.


Bear with me on the following.

God is not omnipresent ( especially in the NT ) and is only active through the Holy Ghost within us.  The world is Satans playground but we are the vessels of the HG.  If God were omnipresent then there could be no sin or opposition to his will (thus no free will since there would not be another option).  Nor would there be a need for angels (messengers).

Absence of God from world explains why bad things happen to good people.



Wonders what I am doing.

:popcorn:

///////////////\"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.\"///////////////

yosemite

May 17, 2008, 04:33:58 am #4 Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 05:02:35 am by yosemite
i said i would post if i had a concern. i am real concerned about that last post and i feel that that subject will only start another debate, confusion, and discontent. i can only say i disagree with everything you said. and i will leave it there.  *sighs and questions*  where are the apostolics???  -yo
My conscience is captive to the Word of God.Thus I cannot and will not recant, for going against my conscience is neither safe nor salutary. I can do no other, here i stand, God help me. Amen      -Martin Luther

Q-tip

Quotesaid i would post if i had a concern. i am real concerned about that last post and------


Glad I could be of service.  Yep, thats what I do from time to time...just post crazy stuff. :grin:
///////////////\"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.\"///////////////

yosemite

May 17, 2008, 05:22:46 am #6 Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 05:49:46 am by yosemite
well since you think it was a service-it was. it was a dis-service to the word,a perversion of Christ's work on the cross and a distraction for who ever reads it.
  one day you will have to give an acount for all those idle words!

we can get along. we can even talk bible as long as we stay on the old path.
satan was created for glory of God and with free will. it was not Gods plan for him to fall, it was satans plan.
God is omnipresent. as far as the good people thing goes-all things happen for the glory of God. we dont know what God has in store for us or the next guy.
it rains on the just as well as the unjust.
and it is true demonds are still in Gods controll. he used them to torment king sol. they have to flee in the name of Jesus though.
in conclusion i will add this to the good people thingy. the prince of peace came not to bring peace but turned mother against daughter,father against son. figure that verse out then you might be on a road to where you and i can talk. oh one more thing, truth is not relative and does not change with the times or from person to person. the old path is always just that,the old path. it is the straight and narrow,and few be that find it. relative truth is a broad path paved with good intentions,many will be that travel this deceiving highway.-yo
My conscience is captive to the Word of God.Thus I cannot and will not recant, for going against my conscience is neither safe nor salutary. I can do no other, here i stand, God help me. Amen      -Martin Luther

Q-tip

Quotewhere are the apostolics


Here I am.   :waving:

If you knew me very well ( not just by my posts ) you would know that I am very much apostolic. 


I believe in the apostolic faith, however ( and I speak only for myself ) I am not threatened by exploring thoughts that have a potential to open up my understanding.

Each of the things I mentioned can actually be supported and all in all may very well explain issues of confusion that turn people away from God. 

There is much more to it than what I posted.   




God Bless.

Chris.
///////////////\"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.\"///////////////

Backseat Radio

Definatley some rather interesting thoughts Q-tip.  not sure if I agree or disagree but there certainly interesting.

Quote from: yosemite on May 17, 2008, 04:33:58 am
where are the apostolics??? 


I'm just simply a Christian trying to live according to what I see in the word of God

Q-tip

May 17, 2008, 06:22:08 am #9 Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 06:49:36 am by Q-tip
Let me back track a little bit to explain (briefly)  why I suggest that Satans fall was in Gods plan.


I hit a little on this before in the "sin" and "Esau" threads but did not elaborate on it. 

It can be deduced in scripture that God created angels sometime between the first and fourth day of creation.  Suggesting that he created them for a purpose in dealing with man. 

God placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden with Adam and Eve.  He then allowed Satan to enter the garden and tempt Eve.

Between creation and the temptation of Eve Satan had already "fallen".



We should ask ourselves why God would create man so perfectly and then place the tree in the garden and allow satan to tempt Eve. He could have not placed the tree there and he also could have simply caused satan and his followers to simply not exist.  However he did not.  In stead he created the possibility to attain free will by allowing Satan to represent that which was against his will and tempt Eve to Sin.   Thus creating the sinful nature of man simply because we were then able to choose Gods will or that which was not Gods will.


How could God represent that which was against his own will?

He could not.

So he created Satan for that purpose and gave him dominion over the earth ( Satan is the prince of the world ). 

We all know that there is an evil spirit from God.  Right?

Notice the interaction between God and Satan in the book of Job.  It says Satan presented himself to the Lord with the other angels. 
Even after falling from heaven he was still presenting himself to God.  Also notice the interaction between them.  It was very professional ( so to speak ) and Satan sought certain permissions from God.  He did nothing without Gods permission. 

Do you think Satan attained the ability to "fall" on his own, or do you believe that God knew very well what he was doing when he created him.

Just the fact that God allowed Satan to exist without the urge to destroy him until after judgement is proof enough for me that God had a plan for Satan.  Is that so hard to accept?



If Satan did not represent that what is against Gods will, how could we have attained the temptation to do anything else.

///////////////\"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.\"///////////////

yosemite

yall can go for vanity if you want. lean on your own understanding. the more i think on it, brother dad your right. there are so many here relying on vain bableings and false doctrines, it is useless to post here. seems as though they follow like an uncurable plague of sorts.   *sighs*
My conscience is captive to the Word of God.Thus I cannot and will not recant, for going against my conscience is neither safe nor salutary. I can do no other, here i stand, God help me. Amen      -Martin Luther

Q-tip

Concerning Omnipresence.

I believe that God changed his interaction with man from the OT to the NT.  While in the OT he was more personally involved and often repented, in the NT we no longer see that direct involvement. 

Can sin exist in Gods presence?  Can man exist in the glory of Gods presence?

For free will to exist, God had to remove himself from the world.  Giving Satan power on earth to tempt us to stray from Gods will. 

Instead he dealt with us via angels (messengers) as well as Jesus ( yes he is god but no time to go there now) and now through the Holy Ghost.   Instead of being everywhere he is in us by means of the HG.  By dwelling in us we attain something that the world does not have in and of itself.

Are there any scriptures in the NT that really say otherwise?  Why is it said that he is omnipresent. 

I am not saying I have accepted this, only that I have been thinking on it.  It is worth considering.
///////////////\"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.\"///////////////

Backseat Radio

Quote from: yosemite on May 17, 2008, 06:28:38 am
yall can go for vanity if you want. lean on your own understanding. the more i think on it, brother dad your right. there are so many here relying on vain bableings and false doctrines, it is useless to post here. seems as though they follow like an uncurable plague of sorts.   *sighs*


your welcome to your opinion of the content of discussions on here but some of us on here would like to have open discussion with out having to hear terms like "vain babblings" and "false doctrine" thrown at us for simply discussing an idea.


yosemite

May 17, 2008, 06:37:04 am #13 Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 06:42:01 am by yosemite
simply put and will comply from now on with *ignores*


but i see you failed to comment on this:

oh one more thing, truth is not relative and does not change with the times or from person to person. the old path is always just that,the old path. it is the straight and narrow,and few be that find it. relative truth is a broad path paved with good intentions,many will be that travel this deceiving highway.-yo
My conscience is captive to the Word of God.Thus I cannot and will not recant, for going against my conscience is neither safe nor salutary. I can do no other, here i stand, God help me. Amen      -Martin Luther

Q-tip

May 17, 2008, 06:39:38 am #14 Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 06:46:01 am by Q-tip
Quoteyall can go for vanity if you want. lean on your own understanding. the more i think on it, brother dad your right. there are so many here relying on vain bableings and false doctrines, it is useless to post here. seems as though they follow like an uncurable plague of sorts.   *sighs*




I am just trying to stir up a conservation with those who so choose to endulge.  I don't think I have suggested anything that changes God or beliefs vital to salvation.  Just discussing Gods interaction with us.

Nothing I have said will cause one to question who God is or how to attain salvation.
///////////////\"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.\"///////////////

Backseat Radio

Q-tip

The idea you present concerrning Satan and  his angels brings to mind some things the apostle Paul stated

Romans 9:14-24 (KJV)
14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


yosemite

oh one more thing, truth is not relative and does not change with the times or from person to person. the old path is always just that,the old path. it is the straight and narrow,and few be that find it. relative truth is a broad path paved with good intentions,many will be that travel this deceiving highway.-yo



  good night.
My conscience is captive to the Word of God.Thus I cannot and will not recant, for going against my conscience is neither safe nor salutary. I can do no other, here i stand, God help me. Amen      -Martin Luther

Backseat Radio

Quote from: yosemite on May 17, 2008, 06:37:04 am
simply put and will comply from now on with *ignores*


but i see you failed to comment on this:

oh one more thing, truth is not relative and does not change with the times or from person to person. the old path is always just that,the old path. it is the straight and narrow,and few be that find it. relative truth is a broad path paved with good intentions,many will be that travel this deceiving highway.-yo


I'll agree truth itself does not change.  our understanding of truth and ability to explain truth does change as we grow in the Lord.

Q-tip

May 17, 2008, 06:58:11 am #18 Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 07:00:34 am by Q-tip
Pauls truth wasn't necessarily Peters truth either.   They each had their own paths.

I was hoping to have a few days off before really getting into these but ..oh well. 
///////////////\"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.\"///////////////

apsurf

So truth is only relative and true only to the person who holds that particular view? ???

apsurf

Yosemite and BSR is correct.....truth doesn't change, but our understanding of it does change over the course of our walk with God.

For example, the fact that God is one, doesn't change, but how we are able to comprehend it and explain it can and does change over time.

Q-tip

QuoteSo truth is only relative and true only to the person who holds that particular view? Huh


I dunno.   I suppose it depends on the subject matter of what truth applies to.  Paul was led to the gentiles but peter couldn't see it.

///////////////\"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.\"///////////////

OGIA

May 17, 2008, 02:11:50 pm #22 Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 02:13:53 pm by OGIA
Hey Q-tip:

Some interesting thoughts.  I've got a few questions and comments.  The questions may be rhetorical at times, but I guess they're still questions.

Quote from: Q-tip on May 17, 2008, 06:22:08 am
It can be deduced in scripture that God created angels sometime between the first and fourth day of creation.


It is my understanding that God created angels before the earth:

Job 38
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


I don't know how that affects your theory, but just thought I'd throw that in there.   :grin:


QuoteBetween creation and the temptation of Eve Satan had already "fallen".


Did you ever wonder if God created man because of Satan's fall?   :-?


QuoteIn stead he created the possibility to attain free will by allowing Satan to represent that which was against his will and tempt Eve to Sin.   Thus creating the sinful nature of man simply because we were then able to choose Gods will or that which was not Gods will.


God creating Satan so that man could attain free will seems to be a theme in your post.  Is that an accurate thought I have?  If so, I can't agree with that.  I believe that when God chose to create ANYTHING that He brought about the reality of something "not God", and "not God", though created with a free will like the Creator, is fallible, because "not God" will likely choose to make decisions unlike God.  Clear as mud?   :lol:



QuoteEven after falling from heaven he was still presenting himself to God.  Also notice the interaction between them.  It was very professional ( so to speak ) and Satan sought certain permissions from God.  He did nothing without Gods permission. 


I agree with this and have always thought it to be this way between God and Satan.  I think God utterly despises Satan, but I don't think He treats him unfairly.  I surely don't think God and Satan stand toe-to-toe beating the snot out of each other, nor do I think that happens between Satan and his fallen crew and those who kept their place in heaven.  I believe Satan MUST ask permission before he touches one of God's children, and I believe those not in covenant relationship with God are fair game for Satan. 


QuoteDo you think Satan attained the ability to "fall" on his own, or do you believe that God knew very well what he was doing when he created him.


I think God knew "very well", even perfectly, and knows the same at all times.  This is where foreknowledge comes into the picture for me.  Existing in eternity (though it might be more accurate to say that God IS eternity) and seeing "the end from the beginning" really takes away (for me) the possibility that God created Lucifer so that man could attain free will....if that is what you are implying.


QuoteIf Satan did not represent that what is against Gods will, how could we have attained the temptation to do anything else.


I believe anything that God creates is created with the same freedom He has to choose right and wrong.  The difference is that God CANNOT choose wrong.  It's just not in His vocabulary.  But, it was and is in the angels' and ours.  "Not God" is fallible, but God chose to create "not God" anyway.  THAT act brought about free will, not Satan. 


And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9


Ignorance of the Identity of the One True God is not a valid reason to practice idolatry.

OGIA

Concerning Omnipresence.

Quote from: Q-tip on May 17, 2008, 06:33:27 am
I believe that God changed his interaction with man from the OT to the NT.  While in the OT he was more personally involved and often repented, in the NT we no longer see that direct involvement.


How much more "personal" can God get than coming in flesh and then allowing us to be partakers of His divine nature?   ;)


QuoteCan sin exist in Gods presence?  Can man exist in the glory of Gods presence?


I'm not sure how this applies? 


QuoteFor free will to exist, God had to remove himself from the world.  Giving Satan power on earth to tempt us to stray from Gods will. 


I addressed this in my previous post.  I don't think man's free will has anything to do with Satan.  Free will apparently existed in the angels and in man when each was created.  I look at free will as God being "fair" to that which He creates.  If He creates anything without free will, then why create anything at all?


QuoteInstead he dealt with us via ... Jesus ( yes he is god but no time to go there now) and now through the Holy Ghost.


I think this is a fatal dagger in your thought.   :lol:  You cannot discount the fact that Jesus is God in flesh or that the Holy Ghost is this same One Spirit active in our lives and in the world. 

Again, how much more personal can God get than becoming like one of us?  How much more personal can He get than allowing us to partake of His divine nature?  If anything, over time, man's fall brought God into a more personal relationship with His creation than at any other time except maybe before the fall.  And, who knows ..... maybe we actually have a more personal relationship with Him than Adam did pre-fall?  I guess the other option is that it was no different.   :-?


QuoteInstead of being everywhere he is in us by means of the HG.  By dwelling in us we attain something that the world does not have in and of itself.


If God is not everywhere, how are sinners being saved everywhere?  Unless the Father, the Spirit, draw a sinner he/she cannot be saved.  God MUST be everywhere or neither you or I would be born again.


QuoteAre there any scriptures in the NT that really say otherwise?  Why is it said that he is omnipresent. 


The NT does not need to say that God is omnipresent.  His nature cannot change, for He is immutable.  The HG is God's "presence" active in the world today.  It (and I use that term to emphasize the role and not the person that is the HG) is not a "fill in" for God while He takes a sabbatical (pun intended  :lol:).

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9


Ignorance of the Identity of the One True God is not a valid reason to practice idolatry.

yosemite

ogia, it is my recent discovery (maybe) that you and i may be on the same old path. in another post you made to a just beleive person, i saw a resemblence of the paths we take. at this time i can only say thanks for that comment and your latest post here and i agree. i'll be studying your posts more indepth from now on. there are some here that i am just going to disregard totally.
there are a lot of things the bible didnt explain.
i have only recently discovered that staying on the old path is better than publicly stating ideas or thoughts
where the bible does not go into detail. publicly, i prefer to stick to what the apostles preached word for word. this is and always will be the old path. it is not subject for debate and does not change from one person to the next nor does it change with time. the only thing that changes is us. we may grow in knowledge of the spirit but the truth never changes.

sorry if i seem a little quick to judge. i am knew to the word and am carefull as to what i listen to.(now)
  some times i am quick to disregard something and maybe i should take time to consider,but in no way is this a weakness only a defence mechenism.

                                                   -yo
My conscience is captive to the Word of God.Thus I cannot and will not recant, for going against my conscience is neither safe nor salutary. I can do no other, here i stand, God help me. Amen      -Martin Luther