The Official 2011 Godplace Christmas debate thread.

[Scott]

If you want to debate or argue about Christmas, it has to be limited to this thread.  Any arguments / debates etc.. outside this thread will be deleted.

[Lynx]

Oh good.  I've seen three running threads on the same thing around the holidays in some forums. 

I'll save a lot of time and list all the taglines people like to use:

Christmas trees are pagan! 

Christ wasn't even born on December 25th!

Santa is an anagram of Satan!

<insert other "Christmas is anti-christian" comments here>!

[Scott]

Christmas trees are pagan! 

No one has ever proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is pure speculation and the quoted scripture is taken out of context.

Christ wasn't even born on December 25th!

No one ever said he was

Santa is an anagram of Satan!

But it IS Spanish for Saint - Santa Maria, Santa Clara, Santa Domingo, Santa Pedro, Santa Paolo

[Lynx]

Thank you.  There, we got those out of the way.  What's next on the list? I remember there were a few others that people kept hollering about, but can't remember what they were.

[Roscoe]

Christmas trees are pagan! 

No one has ever proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is pure speculation and the quoted scripture is taken out of context.

I've always thought that that scripture (Jeremiah 10:2) was more in keeping with totem poles, that kinda thing that the natives did. But,having said that, we've never had a tree in my life, having been raised VERY conservative pentecost, and we'll not have one this year. Not calling anyone sinful for having one, but 1) it's one less thing for me to deal with and 2) Not having one is one more link to the way I was raised, and the "old path" that I feel seems to be more diluted in some ways. If that makes sense. 

[Scott]

Roscoe:  Totem Poles or Idols made from wood.

I can live without a tree, nothing against them - I guess it is that growing up we always decorated my grandmothers house and seldom decorated our house . I think it was because we had a big party on a weeknight and decorated her house and it was boring to decorate ours. Once in a while we put up a tree.

This year our dog is too goofy, he was scared last year - this year he might attack it.

[Roscoe]

Roscoe:  Totem Poles or Idols made from wood.

I can live without a tree, nothing against them - I guess it is that growing up we always decorated my grandmothers house and seldom decorated our house . I think it was because we had a big party on a weeknight and decorated her house and it was boring to decorate ours. Once in a while we put up a tree.

This year our dog is too goofy, he was scared last year - this year he might attack it.

I shudder to imagine what our chihuahu would do to a sparkly lighted tree.....I have enough issues with him unrolling the entire roll of tp from the bathroom.

[Melody]

I think you guys covered it!  No need to debate now. ☺


We have a whole tradition thing going.  Some people go shopping on black Friday before the crack of dawn.  Some people watch football.  We?  We go cut down or buy a real tree and the adventure begins.  We have yet to get a tree that fits or doesn't have a critter hiding in it.  One year we had a bunch of stick bugs or praying mantis'.  We go pick out an ornament that represents a family memory from that year.  We have the going to Colorado, going to Seattle and this year... moving to a real house with a big yard.  Not sure what our ornament will be.  Our Christmases have not been remembered by the presents we got but the funny story of getting a tree that year and who was at Christmas.  We also always have a nativity scene and there is no angel on top of the tree but a star that we enjoy talking about in Christ's birth story. 

We NEVER sing O' Tanenbaum.  We do however enjoy family devotion a little extra by the decorated tree. 

I kind of look at it as the same thing as putting up streamers and balloons for people's birthdays.  We're just celebrating and the season's characteristics dictate how we do that.  Evergreens are the only thing that look pretty this time of year.  I wouldn't be against doing a palm tree if we were tropic natives.


I'm so over the whole Santa thing. It used to really irritate me.  But I will not lie to my kids and have no problem with them pretending.  I don't care what other people do with theirs.  I try to teach my kids tact, which I lack big time.  I do not feel one oz. of shame or regret though of Hannah in her tot years answering or telling kids that there is no Santa.  I don't care anymore who's offended... LOL  She has more wisdom now but it is still a challenge when kids come up and ask her if she believes or if there is one.   


I celebrate and we discuss both Christ's birth and ressurection throughout the year so I don't care what day it actually occured.  It's not the day, every day belongs to the Lord, it's the GOD part of the story that counts.  I suppose for people who only celebrate once a year it might be a bigger deal for them to get the day right. 


The world's not going to get any more Christian so it's not like getting irritated at the world and how they twist it is going to help.  We have to represent what is profitable & true so there continues to be a witness.

[taco_harvell]

What about yule logs? Yule logs are pagan!! LOL Just wanted to add to the discussion.

[The Purple Fuzzy]

If you feel a conviction about it, then you shouldn't do it, no matter what anyone else thinks.

[SippinTea]

BOL! Scott, you just had to do that, didn't you. *grin*

If you feel a conviction about it, then you shouldn't do it, no matter what anyone else thinks.

Yep. Because that's what makes it a personal conviction.

It's like any other personal conviction though... people tend to try to make it a heaven or hell issue and do away with the "personal" part of the equation. *shrug*

[Lynx]

It's like any other personal conviction though... people tend to try to make it a heaven or hell issue and do away with the "personal" part of the equation. *shrug*

Precisely.  A lot of people assume that because they have a conviction about something, it is EVIL and should be avoided.  Like facial hair - all the men in my church lose their beards and mustaches a few weeks after they start coming.  Not because the pastor preaches against it (he doesn't) but because... and I've asked a few of them... they just feel they should get rid of it.  But in a different area it would be fine, and none of the men in the church in that different area have a conviction about it.


About Christmas trees in particular, I don't give a flying flitter either way.  I don't personally want to bother with them because I don't think they add anything to my family's get-together and it's a lot of hassle.  I don't have a conviction about it though - I'm just lazy. 

For the record, the issues I mentioned in my first post in this thread were not my personal arguments.  They were issues I have seen many people raising in the past, many times per issue.  :-/  So I thought I'd clear the deck and get them all out of the way first.   

[Scott]

On Christmas morning after we sacrifice a small animal to the Christmas tree we open presents if the tree accepts the offering.




Actually our Christmas Tradition is simple: If we are at home ..

1.) My son's exchange a gift on Christmas eve
2.) We eat home made chili or Homemade Pizza on Christmas Eve
3.) We watch a Christmas Movie

Christmas day everyone sleeps until they decide to get up and we gather around as a family and read Luke Chapter 2 before opening gifts and then breakfast. The rest of the day is free day and we eat dinner around 5pm

[World Traveler]

Hmmm.... I don't see my favorite Christmas debate listed. Mine is on "How old was Jesus when the wise men came to him?"
LOL
Just had to add a (yule) log to the fire.

[Scott]

They didn't come on Christmas and he wasn't a baby.

[upcchris]

As far as I'm aware, the only yule logs I've heard of in Australia are cakes - probably because it's usually around 30C around Christmas over here - and therfore proper yule logs wouldn't be thought of, because no one in their right mind would have an open fire going around that time of year - not even a campfire, because it would be bushfire season.

It really depends. Personally I don't make a big fuss about getting the day right and think that people who make a big deal about it are being argumentative and looking for a fight....or at the very least an argument. We celebrate Christ's birth on Dec 25th regardless oof the fact that the date's wrong.

Sometimes we put up a tree, a couple of times we hung a bunch of stars on a bunch of painted twisted willow, and once we just had a Nativity scene. *srugs* I don't think it's pagan, it would be a whole lot less of a hassle to not put one up, but it does add to the Christmassy ambiance.

[World Traveler]

Thank you for engaging the debate Scott. Now I can continue.
I do believe he was a baby.
Why?

Luke 2:21 "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb."

Why was he circumcised on the 8th day? Because God commanded all males to be circumcised on the 8th day (Leviticus 12:3).
Hmmm... what else is commanded. Oh yes, the purification of the woman who gave birth...

According to Leviticus 12:4 "And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled.

When the 33 day separation is added to the 7 days of uncleanness in Leviticus 12:2, it comes out to 40 days.

So, it takes 40 days for the women to be considered whole and clean after giving birth to a male child.

With that thought, let us return again to Luke.

In Luke 2:22-23 it states, "And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeith the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

So, Mary, Joseph, and Jesus all traveled about 4.3 miles to Jerusalem. The rest of the verses in Luke chapter two, up to verse 38, talk about the sacrifice they made and the two witnesses (Simeon and Anna) who spoke of who he was (confirmation).

So, Nazareth is 93.8 miles away. Surely it would be easier to go back to Bethlehem. Did they? What do the scriptures say?

In Luke 2:39-40 it states, "And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. And the child grew, and waxed strong in the spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him."

Seems to me that after 40 days Jesus was no longer in Bethlehem.

So, why did the scriptures say the wise men came to a house, not a manger?
So, why did the scriptures refer to Jesus as a child and not a baby?
So, why did King Herod want to kill all the kids two years old and younger?

For these answers it may help to look more into human nature since the scriptures, to my reading, do not address them directly.

We know the wise men saw the star where they resided in the East (Persia?). Assuming a tight schedule we can figure it took them a few weeks of reading and researching  to determine what the star meant. Then they had to get together their goods, their caravan, etc.and head across the desert. Let's say, all total, from the first sighting of the star until they actually stook in Herod's presence, it took one year.
The distance of travel alone and the fact they saw it in their homeland shows the star showed up long before Jesus actual birth.
When they arrive in Israel, they head to see King Herod. After all, he should know what is going on right?
King Herod consulted the chief priests and scribes he learned that the child was born in Bethlehem and sent the wise men their with the instructions to come back and let him know where the child was.

Going by the star, it was probably assumed that they were not looking for a baby, but a child of 9 months to 1 year old.

Now, as we know, the wise men did find him in a house, not a manger, and being warned of God in a dream not to to return to Herod, returned to their own country another way.

Why a house and not a manger? Remember, Mary could not move. It was her time of purification. In addition, after all the commotion (shepherds, stories of angels proclimations, etc), I doubt if the manager of the inn would let his new found celebrity stay in a manger. Once the crowds were gone from the taxing and returned to their own homes, he probably invited them into his own home to stay, or someone else did so.

Now back to Herod. Herod finally realized the wise men are not coming back. Not only were they not coming back, but in Herod's mind their very actions mocked him (Matthew 2:16).

Think of Herod's mindset. Here is a man who has no problem killing children to protect his position. Is he going to be mindful of accuracy in age or location? In verse 16 it states he did not limit the killing to Bethlehem alone, but to all the coasts thereof.

Why? He was angry. He was very angry. The scriptures use the term "wroth".

So, lets look at the mindset again. He has diligently inquired of the wise men as to when they saw the star. He probably learns that it was 9 months to a year before. He is probably one of these people that assumes "all people lie" and so, now that he feels he has been mocked, also feels he has been lied to. So, to make sure he gets the child, he doubles the time (make sure they get him... kill all two years of age or younger) and the area (not just Bethlehem, but all the coast there of in case they are in a rural area of Bethlehem).

Personally, from my reading and understanding, I feel the wise men saw him in a house before Mary's forty days of cleansing and purification were over (but after the eight days and his circumcision). By the time Herod realized what had happened, they, according to the scriptures quoted above, had already been to Jerusalem and were on their way home to Nazareth.

Now, from a logic instead of reasoning standpoint, consider this.

Nazareth is where their home was, where their family (support group) was, where Joseph's tools of his trade and ability to make a living were. Why hang out in Bethlehem for two years?

Of course, there is still one last scripture to address - Matthew 2:13.

The fact that Joseph, Mary, and Jesus went to Jerusalem after the days of her purification were over and then on the Nazareth after that is scripture (Luke chapter two).

So how do we coincide that with Matthew 2:13 that states that after they departed (this scripture follows verse 12 where the wise men are said to depart back to their own country) that Joseph was told in a dream by the Lord to flee to Egypt because Herod is going to seek the young child to destroy him?

If the "They" in verse 13 refers to the wise men, then that negates the scriptures in Luke chapter two about them returning to Nazareth after going to Jerusalem.

But, if the "They" refers to after Joseph, Mary, and Jesus had departed Bethelem (and were now safely on their way back in Nazareth) the story comes together. Remember Herod's mindset. I don't believe this man was content with the Bethlehem area. I believe this man probably became paranoid and started looking elsewhere as well. Just a personal opinion.

Anyway, that is my diagnosis of the situation. Opposing viewpoints are welcome. Just remember, this is for fun and enlightenment. Knowing when the wise men met Jesus in NOT a heaven or hell issue to get bent out of shape over.

[Scott]

 A two year old is not a baby, it is in fact a toddler or a holy terror as most two year olds are.  One of my kids at age two shoved a piece of cinnamon candy up his nose around Christmas and on New Years Day one child swallowed a Safety pin and we spent the day in the Hospital E.R.

[sunlight]

On Christmas morning after we sacrifice a small animal to the Christmas tree we open presents if the tree accepts the offering.




Actually our Christmas Tradition is simple: If we are at home ..

1.) My son's exchange a gift on Christmas eve
2.) We eat home made chili or Homemade Pizza on Christmas Eve
3.) We watch a Christmas Movie

Christmas day everyone sleeps until they decide to get up and we gather around as a family and read Luke Chapter 2 before opening gifts and then breakfast. The rest of the day is free day and we eat dinner around 5pm

and here I was waiting for the "sitting under a bridge and act like homeless people and eat pie"

[Scott]

*shrug*

Our Tradition is simple but works for us.

The funny thing is, my kids never ever woke up ealy on Christmas morning.  I'd be up reading and listening to music hours before they'd haul their carcasses out of bed. A friend of mine stopped by one Christmas day around 1pm to drop off a couple of gifts and was surprised that my boys had just got out of bed.

[Scott]

and here I was waiting for the "sitting under a bridge and act like homeless people and eat pie"

Well we do hit the street corners later holding our " Stranded while Traveling - anything will help" signs.

[sunlight]

lol!

[Scott]

lol!

Last year we passed a guy, maybe 28 - 30 years old holding a "Disabled / Homeless Viet Nam Vet" Sign and there is a guy who stands near a McDonalds holding a sign that says "Victim of the New World Order" while a mile or two the other direction if you get there at the right time, you can see shift change.  The hand off signs.

[EricShane]

BOL! Scott, you just had to do that, didn't you. *grin*

If you feel a conviction about it, then you shouldn't do it, no matter what anyone else thinks.

Yep. Because that's what makes it a personal conviction.

It's like any other personal conviction though... people tend to try to make it a heaven or hell issue and do away with the "personal" part of the equation. *shrug*

well, its just my oppinion that if its contradictictory to the bible then you shouldnt do it, wether it personally convicts   you or not.. Although the word should convict us, even when it doesnt we should still try to live as sanctified as possible.. With that said i may go gome and burn moms christmas tree lol jk

[Lynx]

Compared to previous Christmas debate threads, this one has been a bit of a disappointment.  We didn't even get to the part where someone says we should boycott all stores that say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."   

Oh well.  Maybe we can get someone more argumentative in here by next year's holiday season.