Obama Slips Up About His Faith !

[Brother Dad]

Thank you I just got phone call and will come back and read it in a bit.

[bishopnl]

so nate, are you voting for obama now?

I'd rather have my hand fall off...

[bishopnl]

Here is the letter to William Stephens Smith in which Jefferson makes his "tree of liberty" comments (in which he also references Shay's rebellion):

Paris. Nov 13, 1787.

Dear Sir,

—I am now to acknoledge the receipt of your favors of October the 4th, 8th, & 26th. In the last you apologise for your letters of introduction to Americans coming here. It is so far from needing apology on your part, that it calls for thanks on mine. I endeavor to shew civilities to all the Americans who come here, & will give me opportunities of doing it: and it is a matter of comfort to know from a good quarter what they are, & how far I may go in my attentions to them. Can you send me Woodmason's bills for the two copying presses for the M. de la Fayette, & the M. de Chastellux? The latter makes one article in a considerable account, of old standing, and which I cannot present for want of this article.—I do not know whether it is to yourself or Mr. Adams I am to give my thanks for the copy of the new constitution. I beg leave through you to place them where due. It will be yet three weeks before I shall receive them from America. There are very good articles in it: & very bad. I do not know which preponderate. What we have lately read in the history of Holland, in the chapter on the Stadtholder, would have sufficed to set me against a chief magistrate eligible for a long duration, if I had ever been disposed towards one: & what we have always read of the elections of Polish kings should have forever excluded the idea of one continuable for life. Wonderful is the effect of impudent & persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, & what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusetts: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen-yard in order. I hope in God this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted.—You ask me if any thing transpires here on the subject of S. America? Not a word. I know that there are combustible materials there, and that they wait the torch only. But this country probably will join the extinguishers.—The want of facts worth communicating to you has occasioned me to give a little loose to dissertation. We must be contented to amuse, when we cannot inform.

[Chérie]

so nate, are you voting for obama now?

I'd rather have my hand fall off...

LOL!

[yosemite]

so nate, are you voting for obama now?

I'd rather have my hand fall off...

hahahahaha i agree with ya on that one.a typical unlikew for who the repubs have running does not mandate a vote for pure evil.

[Brother Dad]

Jefferson talked about how the form of government they had he felt to be the best.  rebelloin he spoke of as a little from time to time was to make the government more accountable.  I too would concur with that statement as if we never speak out then the government would run over top of us.  This is why I am so thankful we have the "freedom pf speech" in this country.  From be to say America is perfect.  From time to time we must stand up for what we fill to be right.  If we do not stand up against cewrtain laws then the government will take our rights away.

[yosemite]

Jefferson talked about how the form of government they had he felt to be the best.  rebelloin he spoke of as a little from time to time was to make the government more accountable.  I too would concur with that statement as if we never speak out then the government would run over top of us.  This is why I am so thankful we have the "freedom pf speech" in this country.  From be to say America is perfect.  From time to time we must stand up for what we fill to be right.  If we do not stand up against cewrtain laws then the government will take our rights away.

exactly!!!

[bishopnl]

If we do not stand up against cewrtain laws then the government will take our rights away.

I agree with you.  So if the government isn't to be trusted, why would we want to pledge allegiance to it?

Jefferson believed a society with no government to be the best, but that is incompatible with large populations, and he acknowledges that fact.  Of course, we know that the government run by God is the most perfect form of government, but we won't get that until we get to heaven.

[Rattlesnake]

In the words of the late great Thomas Jefferson, he did indeed say that "a little" rebellion is good every now and then because it established the encroachments committed by the government, but in the very next sentence he plainly states:

An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government. Meaning that the rebellion should be nothing more than a redress and not an overthrow.

Also,

It has its evils, too, the principal of which is the turbulence to which it is subject. But weigh this against the oppressions of monarchy, and it becomes nothing. Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem. Even this evil is productive of good. It prevents the degeneracy of government and nourishes a general attention to public affairs.

Simply stating that the form of Government we had, was nothing in comparison to the evils of monarchy.

The Kingdom of Jesus Christ is indeed "at hand" spiritually and every man, woman, and child has been given the opportunity to join, however, the millennial reign of Jesus Christ has not been established on this earth as of yet, the Kingdom has not acquired it's rightful status here. There will be a day when that takes place, and everything as we know it, will be dissolved and perfect harmony will ensue!

[bishopnl]

There seems to be a sudden shift here....

So now we are all in agreement that Jefferson viewed governments as a necessary evil, but something not to be trusted but rather held accountable at all times?

And that Jefferson saw our government as something that needed to be consistently challenged, not given whole hearted allegiance?

[Rattlesnake]

There was a remedy for the rebellion that Jefferson spoke of -- it's called voting......

[bishopnl]

There was a remedy for the rebellion that Jefferson spoke of -- it's called voting......

There was voting when Jefferson spoke of rebellion.  Jefferson certaintly didn't see the write to vote as a cure-all for the natural problems that man made governments have.

[jdcord]

I would encourage that we not get this ugly about what we feel about the country.  To make this statement shows you are being judgemental.  and does not refelct a Christ like attitude. 

That is exactly the point I was trying to make!  Did you read the post I was responding to??  You and I both made the same point, only I did so with sarcasm (trying to make the point a little more light-heardtedly than you did).

[jdcord]

I wonder why you can not give us the full speach and only a few lines from here ot there that changes the whole meaning.  I will grant that maybe Obama had a slip of words about what he beleived, as most people aren't sure why the believe what they are anyway.  But the fact remains that until his family became part of the system his wife was not proud to be an American. 

....   ....... Ummmmmmmm, .... I didn't quote any speech by Obama in the post you reply to, so I'm not quite sure what you mean.  The quotes I gave were all from letters written by Thomas Jefferson (to which I even provided the links, in case anyone would just so happen to want to read the letters in their entirety).

So again, I'm not quite sure what you're objecting to, unless perhaps you meant to reply to a different post, and somehow replied to the wrong post by mistake.

[jdcord]

That is certainly saying a lot of nothing.  Did you bother to think he was not talking about government of this world.  He was not talking to the Roman empire.  But he was talking to the Church and about the rebellious people in the Church.

If by "he"you are referring to the Apostle Peter (who wrote the epistle), then YES, I not only did bother to think that, but I have made that very case numerous times on this board.

It seems that you have managed to both misunderstand and misrepresent pretty much every single post that I've made in this thread.  How is that possible?  Have I done something previously to offend you?  Or is it just my stance on the topic of discussion in this thread that has managed to offend you? 

[Rattlesnake]

Neither did he see insurrection as a cure. As a matter of fact, when he spoke of the insurrection in Mass., he said it was done out of ignorance.

[Cody P]

I think that if your going to run a country you need to believe in it and follow what has been comanded by the former presidents.

[bishopnl]

Neither did he see insurrection as a cure. As a matter of fact, when he spoke of the insurrection in Mass., he said it was done out of ignorance.

That's right. He saw it as a necessary part of keeping government accountable....he didn't call it a cure, he called it "a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."

The fact is, Jefferson never advocated blind allegiance to the government.  Quite the opposite.  He thought a little insurrection and a hearty distrust of government would actually work to keep the government honest. 

*It should go without saying, I think, that Jefferson saw rebellion as the final cure for a government that had become oppressive of the rights of it's citizens.*

[Chérie]

I think that if your going to run a country you need to believe in it and follow what has been comanded by the former presidents.

funny. i thought it was "we the people.." not a bunch of dead old guys.

[bishopnl]

I think that if your going to run a country you need to believe in it and follow what has been comanded by the former presidents.

That's a bit troubling....I would think Presidents should be less concerned about what their predecessors had done, and more concerned about what the Constitution says.

Although, I admit, most Americans don't have a clue what the Constitution says.

[Brother Dad]

I wonder why you can not give us the full speach and only a few lines from here ot there that changes the whole meaning.  I will grant that maybe Obama had a slip of words about what he beleived, as most people aren't sure why the believe what they are anyway.  But the fact remains that until his family became part of the system his wife was not proud to be an American. 

....   ....... Ummmmmmmm, .... I didn't quote any speech by Obama in the post you reply to, so I'm not quite sure what you mean.  The quotes I gave were all from letters written by Thomas Jefferson (to which I even provided the links, in case anyone would just so happen to want to read the letters in their entirety).

So again, I'm not quite sure what you're objecting to, unless perhaps you meant to reply to a different post, and somehow replied to the wrong post by mistake.

Bishopnl took care of the post I was talkling about.  Sorry I confused you.

[yosemite]

If we do not stand up against cewrtain laws then the government will take our rights away.

 So if the government isn't to be trusted, why would we want to pledge allegiance to it?

it is not the government but the individualls that are in government. remember of the people for the people by the people. and that is what we pledge alligence to, under God.

[Brother Dad]

That is certainly saying a lot of nothing.  Did you bother to think he was not talking about government of this world.  He was not talking to the Roman empire.  But he was talking to the Church and about the rebellious people in the Church.

If by "he"you are referring to the Apostle Peter (who wrote the epistle), then YES, I not did bother to think that, but I have made that very case  numerous times on this board.

It seems that you have managed to both misunderstand and misrepresent pretty much every single post that I've made in this thread.  How is that possible?  Have I done something previously to offend you?  Or is it just my stance on the topic of discussion in this thread that has managed to offend you? 

My why do you think I am offended.  I simply was addressing what you wrote.  Once agin sorry for the confusion.  I was just wanting to clear up that I feel Peter was more talking about rebeling in the Church.

[yosemite]

There seems to be a sudden shift here....

So now we are all in agreement that Jefferson viewed governments as a necessary evil, but something not to be trusted but rather held accountable at all times?

And that Jefferson saw our government as something that needed to be consistently challenged, not given whole hearted allegiance?

in a sence your right same government, different people, and not a monarchy!

[yosemite]

later guys and gals!! no phone money equalls no phone, hence there goes the computer too!

whew! this economic crunch is getting to me. this month we had to choose car or phone!!

we will be back when we can afford such luxuries.