Are you Happy

[jdcord]

I think God wants us to respect our elders, our leaders and those in authority, whether it be respecting JD because he's Scott's right-hand-man, or respecting the president. I wouldn't throw a mud ball at JD because he's a good dude. 

And don't you forget it!

[drummr]

Nate,

I really agree with you on pretty much every point, whether it seems that way or not.  

We certainly have a right to question our leaders on constitutional issues with the understanding
that if they fail in their responsibilities, we will vote for someone else.  I believe you illustrated this
earlier in your opinions about the current Republican administration that has enacted some of the
most liberal, socialist policies in memory.

My concern is centered more on the rancorous, bitter politics that have characterized our nation.
When someone says, "That man is not MY president" I just don't understand it.  This is my nation
and the president of this nation deserves the respect befitting the office.  My Lord has appointed
him leader of my nation and in so doing has placed him in authority over me.  Any disagreement should
be civil, and courteous.  Certainly any constitutional arguments can and should be presented succinctly
and courteously since we are Christians.

I think about the issues Jesus faced with the tyranny of Roman influence that was contrary to Jewish law.
He seemed much more focused on reaching individual souls than in the political process.  The zealots
wanted a strong messiah, a king of kings, to take up their political ideology.  Jesus said, "Render unto
Caesar that which is Caesars".  The Lord is coming soon and He is going to set all of this political nonsense
straight.  In the meantime, I want to be a christian in politics as well as practice.

Now, I cannot answer your contention that the dignities in these verses are only "celestial beings".  But even
if they are, these leaders are certainly extensions of the principalities and powers that we are speaking of.  

Ultimately it is scripture like the following that concerns me:

1 Peter 2:
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against
    you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

We honor our leaders because doing so honors God who is our true Master.  This means people we may disagree with
who have been made our masters.  

[Richard]

Very good

[Sis]

I think God wants us to respect our elders, our leaders and those in authority, whether it be respecting JD because he's Scott's right-hand-man, or respecting the president. I wouldn't throw a mud ball at JD because he's a good dude. 

And don't you forget it!

Wasn't there something about gazpacho way back when?

[bishopnl]

Cliff,

I agree, to a degree, with most of the points you raise.  I do think we have not just a right, but a responsibility to hold our leaders to the Constitution which they have sworn to uphold.  And I do believe that as Christians, our allegiance is to Christ, and He is our first priority.

I won't delve too deeply into other thoughts I may have, because they'd probably be too radical for most people here.    Suffice it to say, I think that there is more that can be done than just vote for someone else when the government abuses the power of the Constitution.  (Note: I'm not advocating armed insurrection).  But I certainly think that the "dream of the Founders" that Obama referenced in his victory speech is embodied in the Declaration of Independence, and not in any political rhetoric we hear today.  

Barack Obama is the President.  Being president doesn't mean I have to support him, agree with him, or give him the benefit of the doubt.  And I'm not going too.  If he follows the Constitution, then he has my full support.  I'm not interested in unity for the sake of "doing away with bi-partisanship" or whatever other reasons people may have.  I don't believe in compromising my beliefs for the sake of unity.

And what's more, most of the same people who are echoing these sentiments of "support him" and "come together" are the same people who spent the last 8 years not just fighting, but demeaning, slandering, and reviling the current President.  I know you, Cliff, aren't included in that number, but there are a good number of people who are.  Those people are hypocrites.  They cannot seriously expect those of us who oppose Obama to do what they themselves would not do.

[drummr]

Nate,

I would say your arguments are fair enough.  I agree that the "come together" crowd are
hypocrites more often than not.  How much of an activist I would be hinges largely on how
my activism matches the will of God, especially in these times, likely the End of Days.
It seems like much of our political process is a distraction that has very little bearing on what
is of ultimate importance.

Thanks for the lively conversation. 

[bishopnl]

How much of an activist I would be hinges largely on how
my activism matches the will of God, especially in these times, likely the End of Days.
It seems like much of our political process is a distraction that has very little bearing on what
is of ultimate importance.

Well the kind of change I think would be necessary isn't going to happen...but I like to argue the point, anyway.    I think the "change we need" isn't likely to come from any political party.   :grin:

[Nelle]

I like to wait and see.

There are always many promises given during a campaign. Once in office, it's often harder than one might think to accomplish everything. Because as a normal citizen, and even just to a Senator or Rep., there just isn't any way they can possibly know what's coming up for them in that position. So with time, they'll figure it out.


I'll pray for him and the country. We definitely are going to need it, as things seem to be getting ever-so-chaotic.

[Sis]

Plus as a Senator, he didn't have access to National secrets like he will when in office.