Apparently over the last few weeks, several of the guys I go to church with, especially those who are ministers in training, have started saying the rapture is not biblical, even though there are verses such as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 that specifically speak of us being caught up with Christ. They have even gone on to state that scriptures such as Matthew 24:40-41 are not scriptures stating that believers shall be taken away, but in fact nonbelievers being separated. The quote being that New Jerusalem is talked about coming down to Earth in Revelation and we being with Christ there forever .
This is a bit concerning to me. I was wondering if anyone else has ever heard this before and if so, how do you take this?
Sounds like preterist doctrine.
I believe that that is the purpose of 1Cor. 15. Specifically vs. 52.
We know a trumpet blows, we know we are changed, we know we are like the angels (Matt 22:30). We know we are caught up. So whether they believe in a cookie cutter "rapture" or some other kind where "heaven" is the New Jerusalem, the simple facts still remain that these things are true. The angels can be caught up to the 3rd heaven... There's too much literal description for it all to be metaphorical.
If they believe in a resurrection, where Jesus ascended, why would they not believe in ours?
Quote from: taco_harvell on February 20, 2012, 02:08:29 AM
Sounds like preterist doctrine.
I agree. Look this book up: http://www.amazon.com/Upholding-Our-Future-Hope-Apostolic/dp/1567226639
That book was required reading for a local license in TN, and rightly so. Good book.
Quote from: minnesota68 on February 20, 2012, 03:01:10 AM
Quote from: taco_harvell on February 20, 2012, 02:08:29 AM
Sounds like preterist doctrine.
I agree. Look this book up: http://www.amazon.com/Upholding-Our-Future-Hope-Apostolic/dp/1567226639
That doctrine is considered by many in the UPCI to be heresy and in some districts if you believe it you will not be licensed.
The one person I know of personally does not adhere to the Preterist doctrine, because they fully believe in the things to come in regards to the Anti-Christ, Tribulation, Judgement Day, etc.., they just no longer see biblical proof of the rapture anymore and they will straight out tell you they don't believe in it. My friend is well versed in scripture and has what I would consider an excellent relationship with God.
I just always think that if the above was the case, that God would have allowed this to be known years ago when the Holy Ghost was coming back into the world after so long in dormancy.
Then without further data it is impossible to answer. What *does* he believe will happen? Will heaven descend to this earth and occupy it, sitting as a big cube on the ground? Will heaven shatter the earth and take its place?
Quote from: Kyle on February 20, 2012, 07:32:20 AM
The one person I know of personally does not adhere to the Preterist doctrine, because they fully believe in the things to come in regards to the Anti-Christ, Tribulation, Judgement Day, etc.., they just no longer see biblical proof of the rapture anymore and they will straight out tell you they don't believe in it. My friend is well versed in scripture and has what I would consider an excellent relationship with God.
I just always think that if the above was the case, that God would have allowed this to be known years ago when the Holy Ghost was coming back into the world after so long in dormancy.
Some people associated with Brother Baxter have taken that stance.
Quote from: Psalm_97 on February 20, 2012, 07:37:11 AM
Then without further data it is impossible to answer. What *does* he believe will happen? Will heaven descend to this earth and occupy it, sitting as a big cube on the ground? Will heaven shatter the earth and take its place?
He believes that the Earth will be destroyed by a solar flare (he says this is the only logical way the Earth can be destroyed by fire), killing off the majority of the population. Once that has happened, people who have been living in underground cities will come up and bring about the Anti-Christ and begin persecuting those who are alive and still serve the Lord. After this, then the Lord will come back to Earth and usher in the New Jerusalem.
Quote from: Kyle on February 20, 2012, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: Psalm_97 on February 20, 2012, 07:37:11 AM
Then without further data it is impossible to answer. What *does* he believe will happen? Will heaven descend to this earth and occupy it, sitting as a big cube on the ground? Will heaven shatter the earth and take its place?
He believes that the Earth will be destroyed by a solar flare (he says this is the only logical way the Earth can be destroyed by fire), killing off the majority of the population. Once that has happened, people who have been living in underground cities will come up and bring about the Anti-Christ and begin persecuting those who are alive and still serve the Lord. After this, then the Lord will come back to Earth and usher in the New Jerusalem.
Almost sounds like he has been reading sci-fi and confused it with scripture. Sounds like he needs to go back to the basics and read the bible and avoid so much speculation.
There are many ideas on how the world will be destroyed, but the solar flare idea? That is directly out of a series of survivalist books from the 1980's. The world is destroyed by a Government weapon creating a giant solar flare and people live in underground cities until they can live on earth again.
How can there be anew earth if it's just going to be people living under ground only to come out to the same earth? Seems like we'd have to ignore a bunch of scripture to but into all that.
Why is a rapture far fetched when Enoch & Elijah went right to heaven?
Too many holes for something we don't need the answers for. I enjoy some end time discussion occasionally but to have such a story to me means a lot of time went into that instead of Bible studies or teaching on more powerful truths for the here & now.
Plus, Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us, where we would be eventually, & then He ascended.
I haven't studied preterism or a rebuttal for such a subject but either I'm very ignorant or it's really that clear that we can conclude, we will be raptured.
Some young people want a new fresh revelation so bad as to exceed the previous generation to either make them proud or prove there is more then the lack they seen growing up. But without integrity, their efforts are rebellious.
It reminds me very much of how the Jews ignored key scriptures about Jesus' arrival to make it fit the world view they had in that day. In their minds, the only way He could do what they perceived was through already understood methods like rising to political power. Likewise, it seems they're using modern concepts to explain spiritual things.
I never did believe the rapture was scriptural.
Pay very close attention to what these verses are saying -
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Take note that it is clearly saying that "that day" shall not come till some point in time AFTER the Antichrist enters the rebuilt temple and proclaims to be God.
(what is "that day" ? - it is in verse one, the day of "our gathering together unto him" - also known as the "rapture")
.......so these verses clearly prove that the "rapture can NOT possibly be pre-trib, and there are other verses that show a post-trib "rapture".
Also read:
:copcar:
(no unapproved links}
:copcar:
If we stick with scripture, we find that the "rapture" is simply phase two of the resurrection of the righteous. The trumpet sounds and the dead in Christ rise first - {are given incorruptible immortal bodies} - and then the living in Christ immediately follow - {are given incorruptible immortal bodies} - rising in the air to be with the LORD.
Just remember that rapture = resurrection. Since the Bible clearly tells us when the resurrection occurs; we automatically know when the rapture occurs. Simultaneous event separated by moments and not years. Anyone who believes otherwise needs to be prayed for understanding.