I"ve been troubled by this for quite awhile. Especially this year. I know the populace of this country are not ready in the slightest. It still seems like everything is "normal". Money trades hands and kids go to the mall. Everyone remains concerned about credit scores and retirement funds. The news media reports 'celebrity X's' latest escapades. Political candidates squabble about nothing, while the enemies of this country prepare.
Does anyone here see the warnings? Anyone else bothered about this? Anyone else given serious thought to our immediate future?
I'm not scared. I'm just troubled.
What do you think?
It is troubling. My hope is that if Americans will not turn back to God now, then perhaps the coming of judgment will cause us to turn back to Him. God's judgment often has that effect on a people.
Jerry,
I think this country, and probably some others, are so numbed at this point that it is going to take a very serious disaster to stir folks....even me to a degree. :(
This country has a history of always "winning". I think it will take a "loss" for this country to realize how much trouble it has been in for a long time now. You can see the same thing as it happened to the Jews over decades and centuries. Finally God's hand was removed and serious disaster ensued. I see this country collapsing daily and I see families going about their way as if it's all normal.
Numbed. That's about all I can think to say. :smirk2:
Yeah, that's the sad thing. We tend to "shake things off" so fast. What will it take to open our eyes and turn our hearts?
It just seems that I find myself thinking about this more and more. This year, the LORD has led me to websites addressing America and its demise. I wasn't even looking for them. Just somehow wound up there. The phrase: "It's all going to burn" has been rumbling thru my heart and soul for some months now. I'm not so much concerned about escaping the coming calamities, as I am being sure I - and mine - are truly ready and saved.
What I've discovered so far has been dreams, visions, & prophecies regarding God's coming judgment upon this country. Things like greater hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes. Famine and drought; fires and floods. Terrorism multiplied, involving nukes. Cities destroyed and entire states disappearing under water. Add to that, the collapse of our economy & martial law.
I really try to keep up with current events in all sectors of society. It takes a blind person not to see the writing on the wall. God is fully justified in destroying this country over the 50 million + abortions carried out the last 40 years. We have turned our face from Him and serve other gods. He has called and called and called, yet we still refuse to repent and turn from our wicked ways. We're getting shell shocked from all directions.
I honestly believe there is a strong possibility the final 7 yrs begins this Fall at Rosh Hoshanah. I'm afraid President Bush is determined to go to war with Iran, no matter the cost. This will be catastrophic for America. The repercussions will be deathly.
Our message now, more than ever, needs to be that of Jesus: Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. This time, it physically is near.
I'm really troubled in my spirit. Great revival is at hand. Great judgment accompanies it. Our time to shine is almost here. We have to be prepared.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 11, 2008, 04:52:12 AMI honestly believe there is a strong possibility the final 7 yrs begins this Fall at Rosh Hoshanah.
I'd like to hear more.
QuoteGreat revival is at hand. Great judgment accompanies it. Our time to shine is almost here. We have to be prepared.
I was talking to a coworker about this just yesterday. WE HAVE TO BE READY! People are going to begin running into churches and homes of those they have watched from afar and are deemed by them to be "true Christians". I WANT TO BE ONE OF THOSE! I don't need to know what anyone thinks of me now, but I pray that my light and salt have affected enough people that they know where to run to. It might be in their own personal tribulation period or it might be in the one of which you speak, but I asked the Lord that my life be recognizable as a lighthouse in the coming calamity! :grin:
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 11, 2008, 04:52:12 AM
It just seems that I find myself thinking about this more and more. This year, the LORD has led me to websites addressing America and its demise. I wasn't even looking for them. Just somehow wound up there. The phrase: "It's all going to burn" has been rumbling thru my heart and soul for some months now.
In addition to what John wrote, I'd like to hear more about this as well.
I will. Probably be tomorrow. I'm kinda slow. Two or more topics at once makes me think harder. :teeth:
Rosh Hoshanna - Feast of Trumpets to Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement is 2550 consecutive days or 86 moons + 9 days. Daniel says the 70th week is 1260 + 1290 = 2550 days.
THE NUMBER OF MOONS FROM TISHREI OF A GIVEN YEAR TO TISHREI 7 YEARS LATER VARIES. IT MAY BE 7 x 12 = 84 MOONS PLUS 2 EXTRA EMBOLISMAL ADAR 2 MOONS = 86 MOONS OR IT MAY BE 7 x 12 =84 PLUS 3 EXTRA EMBOLISMAL ADAR 2 MOONS = 87 MOONS. THOSE SEVEN YEAR SPANS CONTAINING 86 MOONS MATCH UP PERFECTLY THE TIMESPAN BETWEEN THE NEXT TWO FEASTS OF ISRAEL THAT ARE DUE FOR FULFILMENT. FROM TISHREI 1, (THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS), IN CERTAIN YEARS AND TERMINATING ON TISHREI 10, THE DAY OF ATONEMENT, DAY OF RECKONING, DAY OF JUDGEMENT SEVEN YEARS LATER THE TIME ELAPSED IS EXACTLY 2550 DAYS. THIS IS THE EXACT NUMBER OF DAYS, (1260 + 1290 DAYS), WHICH ENCOMPASSES THE 70TH WEEK OF DANIEL.
BELOW WE SEE HOW THE METATONIC CYCLES ARE LAID OUT ACROSS SUCCESSIVE 7 YEAR SPANS OF YEARS. WE ALSO NOTICE THAT THESE TISHREI TO TISHREI TIMESPANS ARE EITHER 87 MOONS OR 86 MOONS. THOSE TIMESPANS OF 86 MOONS FIT THE 70TH WEEK OF DANIEL SO PERFECTLY THAT WE ARE BOUND TO CONCLUDE THAT THE NEXT TWO HEBREW FEASTS DUE TO COME UP FOR FULFILLMENT, NAMELY THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS AND THE DAY OF ATONEMENT ARE IN FACT THE VERY TWO FEASTS THAT MARK THE BEGINNING OF THE 70TH WEEK OF DANIEL AND THE END OF THE 1290 DAYS THE ANGEL GABRIEL SPOKE OF IN HIS MESSAGE TO DANIEL. (DAN.12:11) THE 1290 DAYS EXTEND OUT 30 DAYS BEYOND THE 1260 DAYS OF THE LATTER HALF OF THE 70TH WEEK OF DANIEL AND MAY BE AGRACE PERIOD IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON THAT WILL MARK THE CLIMAX OF THIS AGE. THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS AND THE DAY OF ATONEMENT ARE THE FIRST TWO OF THE THREE FALL FEASTS OF ISRAEL. THESE FEASTS, #'s 5, 6, & 7 HAVE YET TO BE FULFILLED IN THE NEW COVENANT. HOLY HISTORY HAS YET TO REVEAL THESE EPIC EVENTS US. THEY ARE OUT THERE IN FUTURE HISTORY. AND THESE UPCOMING TWO FALL FEASTS MARK OUT THE FINAL SEVEN YEARS OF THIS AGE WITH TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE PRECISION.
Number of moons in 7 Years beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2004: 2004-2005 13 moons 2005-2006 12 moons 2006-2007 12 moons 2007-2008 13 moons 2008-2009 12 moons 2009-1010 12 moons 2010-2011 13 moons 87 moons (Fails to qualify for 70th week)
Number of moons in 7 Years beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2005: 2005-2006 12 moons 2006-2007 12 moons 2007-2008 13 moons 2008-2009 12 moons 2009-2010 12 moons 2010-1011 13 moons 2011-2012 12 moons 86 moons (Qualifies for 70th week)
Number of moons in 7 Years beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2006: 2006-2007 12 moons 2007-2008 13 moons 2008-2009 12 moons 2009-2010 12 moons 2010-2011 13 moons 2011-1012 12 moons 2012-2013 12 moons 86 moons (Qualifies for 70th week)
Number of moons beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2007 2007-2008 13 moons 2008-2009 12 moons 2009-2010 12 moons 2010-2011
13 moons 2011-1012 12 moons 2012-2013 12 moons 2013-2014 13 moons 87 moons (Fails to qualify for 70th week)
Number of moons beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2008 2008-2009 12 moons 2009-2010 12 moons 2010-2011 13 moons 2011-1012
12 moons 2012-2013 12 moons 2013-2014 13 moons 2014-2015 12 moons 86 moons (Qualifies for 70th week)
Number of moons beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2009 2009-2010 12 moons 2010-2011 13 moons 2011-1012 12 moons 2012-2013
12 moons 2013-2014 13 moons 2014-2015 12 moons 2015-2016 13 moons 87 moons (Fails to qualify for 70th week)
Number of moons beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2010 2010-2011 13 moons 2011-1012 12 moons 2012-2013 12 moons 2013-2014
13 moons 2014-2015 12 moons 2015-2016 13 moons 2016-2017 12 moons 87 moons (Fails to qualify for 70th week)
Beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2011 2011-1012 12 moons 2012-2013 12 moons 2013-2014 13 moons 2014-2015 12 moons 2015-2016
13 moons 2016-2017 12 moons 2017-2018 12 moons 86 moons (Qualifies for 70th week)
Beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2012 2012-2013 12 moons 2013-2014 13 moons 2014-2015 12 moons 2015-2016 13 moons 2016-2017
12 moons 2017-2018 12 moons 2018-1019 13 moons 87 moons (Fails to qualify for 70th week)
Beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2013 2013-2014 13 moons 2014-2015 12 moons 2015-2016 13 moons 2016-2017 12 moons 2017-2018
12 moons 2018-1019 13 moons 2019-2020 12 moons 87 moons (Fails to qualify for 70th week)
Beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2014 2014-2015 12 moons 2015-2016 13 moons 2016-2017 12 moons 2017-2018 12 moons 2018-1019
13 moons 2019-2020 12 moons 2020-2021 12 moons 86 moons (Qualifies for 70th week)
Beginning on Rosh Hoshanah 2015 2015-2016 13 moons 2016-2017 12 moons 2017-2018 12 moons 2018-1019 13 moons 2019-2020
12 moons 2020-2021 12 moons 2021-1022 13 moons 87 moons (Fails to qualify for 70th week)
By Gavin Finley MD - endtimepilgrim.org
*****************************************************************************
Besides all the socio-political, economic, and natural events taking place around the planet, add to the above the possibility of the blood moon around 2015. That event will occur only the one time in the 21st century. IF scripture is fulfilled by natural means and not relying on man made events {smoke, nuclear dust, etc}, the 7yrs would have to start in 2008.
The first 4 feasts were fulfilled to the day, by Jesus' first advent. There is no reason to doubt the last 3 will not be major portents of prophecy. As we can see, Rosh Hoshanah of 2008 completes Daniel's 2550 days in 2015.
We also have the testimony of scripture regarding 2001 beginning the 7th day {7000 yrs} from Adam, and 3rd day {3000 yrs} from Jesus. Genesis tells us God finished His work on the 7th day. Joseph's type of Christ revealed 14yrs from coming out of prison {resurrection} to having all kingdoms under his feet {return}. News media have repeatedly called the first 7 yrs of this century as "good/plentiful", and 2008 as beginning of "bad/famine".
The year of 2008 began & continues with the cry of REPENT going out to the churches and the world. The Lord is desperately trying to warn us to prepare. The midnight hour found in the parable of the virgins, could be from the 6th day going into the 7th. The virgins all rose to go meet the bridegroom. They all had oil to last until midnight. It was only the wise {understanding} who prepared for afterward. The wise had oil {illumination} for the brief journey of darkness to the Bridegroom and entered into the protection of the Kingdom. The foolish {unaware} took too long gaining oil and wound up taking the brunt of the judgment.
That's just some of the reasons I believe this is the time.
Check out these websites. {Note: I do not necessarily agree with everything on these places. Neither do I necessarily agree with everything on GP Forums. The information is very thought provoking and worth "trying the spirits". }
Each site has verbally authorized any and all information to be freely used.
www.endtimepilgrim.com www.propheticwatchmanvine.com
www.americaslastdays.com www.handofhelp.com/index.php
www.newwineministry.net
If these are a problem, just PM me & I will send them to you.
Quote from: OGIA on July 11, 2008, 10:57:23 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 11, 2008, 04:52:12 AMI honestly believe there is a strong possibility the final 7 yrs begins this Fall at Rosh Hoshanah.
I'd like to hear more.
QuoteGreat revival is at hand. Great judgment accompanies it. Our time to shine is almost here. We have to be prepared.
I was talking to a coworker about this just yesterday. WE HAVE TO BE READY! People are going to begin running into churches and homes of those they have watched from afar and are deemed by them to be "true Christians". I WANT TO BE ONE OF THOSE! I don't need to know what anyone thinks of me now, but I pray that my light and salt have affected enough people that they know where to run to. It might be in their own personal tribulation period or it might be in the one of which you speak, but I asked the Lord that my life be recognizable as a lighthouse in the coming calamity! :grin:
Yes, me too. The Bible consistently speaks of the remnant who come out of the masses and participate in exploits. The Lord has prepared us for this particular time. We have to put away all childish discentions and unite as the mature Body of Christ. We want to be manifested Sons of God.
Thanks, Jerry. :great:
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 11, 2008, 04:52:12 AM
The phrase: "It's all going to burn" has been rumbling thru my heart and soul for some months now. I'm not so much concerned about escaping the coming calamities, as I am being sure I - and mine - are truly ready and saved.
I mentioned things burning in a post above. A couple of weeks ago, I ran across this article. I only pasted part of it, as it is very lengthy. Leaves something to ponder on. The website is:
http://www.theamericannightmare.org/165_The_Great_Abyss_A-D.html
***********************************************************
WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ IS ACCURATE AND TRUE !
1. According to its own official maps, America (and both its neighbors) sit on top of the Hugoton-Panhandle Natural Gas Reserve, which is the largest natural gas reserve on earth.
2. In order to extract natural gas from what is basically an enormously large interconnected and "dry" set of chambers, America's energy companies have been pumping huge amounts of water into them for just under a hundred years to force the gas out into pipelines, then on to processing plants.
NOTE: In areas (such as the Rocky Mountains) the H-P Reserve consists of little more than dense oil soaked layers of shale rock, and for which reason, it is not profitable to extract gas from those areas. Even so, several very rich oil fields co-exist with the H-P natural gas reserve in these same areas of dense shale rock. In places such as south Texas oil formations are much deeper, and do not generally pose the problem we will be discussing. However, should our shallow natural gas reserve ever become ignited, the above areas would either explode or burn nevertheless.
3. Once the gas in a given part of the chamber of our natural gas reserve reaches a point where it's no longer dense enough to be economical to extract gas from, these energy companies simply move to areas that are more dense, in hopes that the vacuum caused by the receeding "replacement" water will eventually * Wash my mouth out with soap * in enough gas from other areas of the reserve.
4. Meanwhile, the law of gravity has been constantly pulling the replacement water they had previously filled that part of the gas chamber with into our water acquifers, which are located well below the gas chambers, leaving the partial vacuum that remains loaded with lower levels of natural gas.
5. Granted, most of the overall gas reserve consists of fairly dense shale rock, but there are large chambers (wide open spaces) particularly in the areas where the energy companies have been removing oil and natural gas, within the same general areas.
6. With nothing else to fill the void created by the reduced water level in the reserves, the resulting vacuum * Wash my mouth out with soap * air (oxygen) into these huge chambers from the surface of the earth; mostly through vent pipes left from the original drilling operation.
7. Once the oxygen to gas ratio reaches fourteen percent, the "mix" in this part of the reserve becomes volatile, and subject to exploding if and when it is ever ignited. A mix of twenty one percent oxygen to gas ratio causes that particular gas chamber to become a genuine fully loaded bomb, just waiting to be ignited.
8. At a point just thirty miles north of Pantex, where America stores its larger nuclear weapons, the H-P Reserve is less than fifty feet below the surface of the earth; and subject to being breached by just anything falling from the sky, such as an airplane, a meteorite, or a bomb.
9. If that should ever take place, the entire North American Continent would be subject to a series of explosions and fires, until it literally ceases to exist, because the entire N. American Continent is literally perched on top of the H-P Reserve. So, after the explosions, those parts that are made of heavily oil laden shale rock would simply burn until there is nothing left. Which means the dirt itself would burn.
:copcar:
Please break up longer posts, the page will load quicker for slower connections and it is easier to read
Thanks
:copcar:
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 24, 2008, 04:56:50 PM
8. At a point just thirty miles north of Pantex, where America stores its larger nuclear weapons, the H-P Reserve is less than fifty feet below the surface of the earth; and subject to being breached by just anything falling from the sky, such as an airplane, a meteorite, or a bomb.
I have a hunch that if this was a real danger, the Federal government would not store nuclear weapons in that particular spot.
Just my two cents.
Maybe and maybe not.
We are talking about the Govt you know. Uncle Sam's middle name is Pinnochio. :teeth:
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 25, 2008, 06:15:16 AM
Maybe and maybe not.
We are talking about the Govt you know. Uncle Sam's middle name is Pinnochio. :teeth:
Well, there are a lot of lies and secrets, to be sure.
But I think that if they suspected their precious weapons might be in danger, they'd move them.
Quote from: titushome on July 25, 2008, 02:29:14 PM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 25, 2008, 06:15:16 AM
Maybe and maybe not.
We are talking about the Govt you know. Uncle Sam's middle name is Pinnochio. :teeth:
Well, there are a lot of lies and secrets, to be sure.
But I think that if they suspected their precious weapons might be in danger, they'd move them.
From what I can gather, they are looking into that right now. I believe the outsource locations are Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran. Maybe Cuba cause it's closer. :freaky2:
Seriously though... the whole place could go up and never effect the nukes. It takes more than that to set them off. Plain ole fire doesn't cut it.
Just something to ponder. Nothing more.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 25, 2008, 04:21:27 PM
From what I can gather, they are looking into that right now. I believe the outsource locations are Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran. Maybe Cuba cause it's closer. :freaky2:
ROTFL!!! :rotfl:
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 25, 2008, 04:21:27 PM
Seriously though... the whole place could go up and never effect the nukes. It takes more than that to set them off. Plain ole fire doesn't cut it.
Oh - I thought the author of the article you posted was trying to say that the damage of the explosion would be exponentially compounded because it might set the nukes off.
He may, but I didn't get that. Have to read it again.
I got that the water process has created a vacuum in the gas pockets, and that oxygen is filling that gap. This causes less pressure on the gas, making it unstable, while now sitting upon a richer mixture of oxygen. It's that which has become a virtually infinite source for feeding flame.
Then, if a couple of nuke silos were afforded a direct nuclear hit, (which would be powerful enough to start a reaction), it would expand the flammable gas pockets thruout the continent. I think he implied an underground explosion deep enough, and "lucky" enough could ignite the gas. Especially since we keep pushing the gas to the top.
I'm not really sure if it's feasible. Just thought it interesting. I thought of the scriptures about the smoke of Babylon being seen by the nations, and how Babylon would become uninhabitable. Nukes will definately do that. But so could an out- of- control fire underneath the Earth's crust.
Add to that, the recent reports of EMP weapons sought by Iran and held by Russia. That would take care of our nukes.
Jesus said He would burn the planet. He didn't say how. We are the seed of our own destruction.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 26, 2008, 01:50:33 PM
Jesus said He would burn the planet. He didn't say how. We are the seed of our own destruction.
I believe it.
Tomorrow is 911 anniversary. The 7th to be exact. I think that is significant.
After seeing all the downsides that have occured over the last month and a half, I wonder just how much longer the USA has before "the big one"?
We spoke earlier of needing something massive to shake us out of our shells. Forestfires, bank closings, inflation, war, rumors of war, business collapses, floods, and hurricanes haven't seemed to do it. I guess it really will take a 9. quake and a 4. hurricane and a few nukes to get our attention. I guess the "church" is too busy waiting for the wealth transfer and prosperity to kick in. After all, the king's kids are deserving of the best. How sad. What a surprise is in store for the bulk of Christianity, as well as the world.
I sense more than ever that soon events will transpire to bring about the beginning of the tribulation. If we haven't begun it yet, know that Time is short. I urge each one here to go back before the Father and be sure all things are put under His feet. Go back and seek His face as never before for instructions regarding what is about to be unleashed upon the earth. Nothing will ever be the same. We must be prepared to step into our individual place; prepared to guide those whom we are given; prepared to set aside the old life and walk in the new. There is so much to be done in the weeks, months, years ahead for the Kingdom's sake.
Many of us will be put to death. Many will be imprisoned. All will be given the opportunity to turn away. It is my prayer we will all prove worthy to stand before Him and hear Him say "Well done".
It's that close.
Many will be raptured before the tribulation. I intend to be one of them! :clap:
Quote from: doogie on September 13, 2008, 05:53:18 AM
Many will be raptured before the tribulation. I intend to be one of them! :clap:
Scripturally, that's not true. The church will be here for the whole magilla. I'm afraid you've taken the bait of a HUGE deception - if not THE BIGGEST LIE - to ever hit the church.
Sorry. Better get prepared. Be a wise virgin who has extra oil to meet the Bridegroom. Be salt and light in the midst of the darkness coming upon the face of the world - the gross darkness covering the people. Be one of the remnant who do greater works than Jesus.
Like the song says: I'm going thru. Best to take another look at the Book.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 13, 2008, 03:05:16 PM
Scripturally, that's not true. The church will be here for the whole magilla. I'm afraid you've taken the bait of a HUGE deception - if not THE BIGGEST LIE - to ever hit the church.
I tend to agree with you on the first part, Jerry. I'm not sold on it, but lean that way heavily (more heavy over time! lol!). I was just thinking last night while reading that surely God wouldn't take His Church from the time in history when most people will be looking to Him, would He?? I can't base truth on that, but I see us likely being here to reap the harvest of the tribulation. Why put mankind through 7 years of hell without hope of deliverance to only put them through an eternity of it without hope afterwards?
HOWEVER.....I gotta disagree with you on the pretrib rapture possibly being the biggest lie. And, I'm sure you know what's coming. ;) The biggest lie, not only because it lies about the One and Only God but because it will be the one thing that will result in more people being lost, is the lie of the trinity. Throw in there the lies of the other various and asundry doctrines of the godhead that are blatantly false, and you get the BIGGEST LIE of all.
Just thought I'd throw my :twocents: in. :hypocrite:
And I caught your 2-cents John! Added them to another gallon jar with the others. Saving for a rainy day - which looks to be here about now.
:grin:
The great revival/harvest that the Church has been praying for and looking for occurs in the tribulation. Your logic is sound.
I heard again - not too long ago - the statement about God not allowing the dragging of His Bride thru the street to be defiled. Well, history is full of His Bride being dragged thru the street, resulting in:
death - imprisonment - beatings - loss of property - loss of homes - loss of family - etc. etc.
What makes today's church think we're so holy to escape that?
I tend to think the church knows it is too unholy to endure, and wants to run away.
Tribulation fire will burn alot of that away. For a few, anyhow. The rest will either fall away or perish early.
I say it again Church.... you better repent and get ready for what's coming now! Not years from today - but immediate future. Like weeks and months ahead. Listen to the cry of the Spirit in your heart and quit listening to false teachers in the pulpits. Now is not the time to fly away, but to prepare for the greatest hour the Church has ever known.
Do a quick study into these questions:
How many resurrections are there for Mankind {not counting Jesus' resurrection} and when do they occur?
Does the rapture occur before or after these resurrections?
The answer to those questions will reveal the truth about our immediate future.
Jerry,
What do you see that prompts you to say "weeks and months"? Just curious.
So, please eexplain to me why Jesus Christ would subject his "Bride" to the wrath that is to be pouted out on this wicked earth?
We are not appointed unto wrath, but will be caught up with Christ before the man of sin is revealed, returning to rule and reign with him during the millinium.
Quote from: doogie on September 13, 2008, 05:20:41 PM
So, please eexplain to me why Jesus Christ would subject his "Bride" to the wrath that is to be pouted out on this wicked earth?
We are not appointed unto wrath, but will be caught up with Christ before the man of sin is revealed, returning to rule and reign with him during the millinium.
The wrath of God upon a sinful planet is not until the end of the tribulation. Just as the flood did not come upon the earth until after 7 days of rain.
Has the purpose of tribulation ever been seriously looked at? A quick look at scripture reveals tribulation to be a refining element of the Lord for His people. There is no way at all that the Church is ready for a pre-trib rapture. The Church is too enmeshed within the world and the Harlot system. The Church must be purged and that takes tribulation/persecution.
Where does scripture endorse a single "man of sin"? Has it ever occurred to us that the "man of sin" is our fleshly nature being revealed by the Holy Ghost and destroyed by the fire of God? Every time we go thru the fires of tribulation, the purpose is to bring to the top the dross in our lives. The "man of sin" if you will. The Lord reveals this in order for us to deal with it and allow His "coming" in our lives to destroy it.
The type of the last 7 yrs is a type of Tabernacles. For 7 days the people have to eat unleavened bread. That is the pure word of God w/o any man-made doctrines/teachings added. The revealing of the "man of sin" corresponds to sweeping the house of leaven. The wrath of the Lamb is to purge His Body, and is targeted toward it's members who should know better.
The final wrath of God takes place after the resurrection & rapture, and appears to last approximately 1 yr. This will be a time of total world-war and Armeggadon. There will be no righteous upon the planet.
Salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ is the only refinement needed for the church to be "prepared" for the imminent pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.
:lurk:
Quote from: doogie on September 13, 2008, 07:17:39 PM
Salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ is the only refinement needed for the church to be "prepared" for the imminent pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.
Yes to the first part.
Scripture for the 2nd.
Any answers to the resurection question?
Hey Jerry:
You miss this?
Quote from: OGIA on September 13, 2008, 05:13:35 PM
Jerry,
What do you see that prompts you to say "weeks and months"? Just curious.
Quote from: OGIA on September 14, 2008, 12:19:49 AM
Hey Jerry:
You miss this?
Quote from: OGIA on September 13, 2008, 05:13:35 PM
Jerry,
What do you see that prompts you to say "weeks and months"? Just curious.
Yes I did. Sorry. Haven't been back to page 1. Will do that now.
What prompts "weeks and months"?
Well, first off, there is this niggling down in my spirit that keeps pushing and warning that time is running out. Difficult to vocalize. Just a prompting of the Spirit that increases hourly. This year began for me by the HG crying out REPENT! EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BURN! God always seeks repentance among His people before judgement. This has increased and not decreased all year.
Second - the state of American current affairs. Our economy is a wreck. Our dollar is about to collapse. Our govt is seizing more and more power over everyday life and individual rights. Our military is increasing "war games" with other nations, right in the face of very powerful enemies. Our leaders see nothing wrong with Iraqi/Afghanistan wars continuing perpetually. Presidential hopefuls think war with Russia would be a good thing. Our leaders desire to continue to spread the American Empire to whatever nation it chooses. Our debt is currently NINE TRILLION DOLLARS - not counting Fannie, Freddie, Medicare, and Social Security. Add those in and the total is around SEVENTY-FIVE TRILLION! We're on the verge of armed resurection over the decisions of our "elected" officials. The legalization and recognition of homosexual marriage. The 50+ million legal abortions since Roe vs Wade. Our own financial/educated experts are saying America - as we know it - can't continue past another decade. We'll be in third-world status.
Third - the increase of natural disasters just this year. California is being burned to the ground. There is a drought over much of the country. {droughts are scripturally signs of judgement} The bread basket of the middle states has been flooded out. The coasts are being pulverized by hurricanes coming in succession; some criss-crossing the state and re-grouping before dissolution. Our food production is being demolished. Earthquakes being felt in unlikely places. {there were tremors in NYC}
Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.
Fifth - the alignment of the Fall Feasts correspond more closely to 2008 than ever before. The signs in the sun, moon, and stars point toward possibly beginning soon.
Sixth - the propensity of Christians to put off all prophetic fullfilment to "some other generation" always adds years from now. Everything we have looked for and expected to happen based upon scripture is happening today - September 2008. Yet the church still thinks "some other time".
There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 01:55:28 AM
Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.
There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider.
Any specifics you can give -- what false teachings, anyone in particular, any group in particular, etc?
Quote from: OGIA on September 14, 2008, 02:07:08 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 01:55:28 AM
Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.
There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider.
Any specifics you can give -- what false teachings, anyone in particular, any group in particular, etc?
Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? :biglaugh:
False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!
Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.
Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.
The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.
The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?
The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".
The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.
All these are the preachings of another Jesus.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 02:52:44 AM
Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? :biglaugh:
Well, if you're going to call the saints out to repent, you gotta let 'em know what to repent over, right? The prophet usually let the folks know what they needed to do to get right with God, didn't they? ;)
QuoteChurch buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.
This is one I struggle with. I see a lot of people mimicking the Lord in His ministry to the poor, but where is the teaching in the epistles to the Church to do so outside of the Church? I don't see the ministry of the Lord to the poor evident as much in Paul's life, nor does he teach about it being for those outside of the Body, for example. I say that as an absolute, but relative to the ministry of Jesus on earth, there is very little ministering to the worldly poor in the accounts of the Church leaders. It all seemed to be directed to the Body.
There are a lot of "denominal" movements getting into what I call the "Jesus ministry". I'm involved in one here. They've been at it for almost 10 years now. Bought an old crack house and feed every Wednesday and tutor M-Th for over an hour after school. A group of a dozen or so middle-age, middle class white folks sacrficing BIG TIME for this work. It blows the Apostolic churches away, just what THEY do. BUT......they don't have the rest of the NT down hardly at all -- no leadership, no gifts of the Spirit, no direction, etc.
Anyway, just pondering...again...about this. I ask the Lord almost everyday if they are doing what we should be. I KNOW we have what they need in the spiritual sense, but do THEY have what WE need in the service sense? Or, is that not what the Lord meant by "unto the least of these my brethren"?
:smirk2:
Quote from: OGIA on September 14, 2008, 03:14:55 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 02:52:44 AM
Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? :biglaugh:
Well, if you're going to call the saints out to repent, you gotta let 'em know what to repent over, right? The prophet usually let the folks know what they needed to do to get right with God, didn't they? ;)
QuoteChurch buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.
This is one I struggle with. I see a lot of people mimicking the Lord in His ministry to the poor, but where is the teaching in the epistles to the Church to do so outside of the Church? I don't see the ministry of the Lord to the poor evident as much in Paul's life, nor does he teach about it being for those outside of the Body, for example. I say that as an absolute, but relative to the ministry of Jesus on earth, there is very little ministering to the worldly poor in the accounts of the Church leaders. It all seemed to be directed to the Body.
There are a lot of "denominal" movements getting into what I call the "Jesus ministry". I'm involved in one here. They've been at it for almost 10 years now. Bought an old crack house and feed every Wednesday and tutor M-Th for over an hour after school. A group of a dozen or so middle-age, middle class white folks sacrficing BIG TIME for this work. It blows the Apostolic churches away, just what THEY do. BUT......they don't have the rest of the NT down hardly at all -- no leadership, no gifts of the Spirit, no direction, etc.
Anyway, just pondering...again...about this. I ask the Lord almost everyday if they are doing what we should be. I KNOW we have what they need in the spiritual sense, but do THEY have what WE need in the service sense? Or, is that not what the Lord meant by "unto the least of these my brethren"?
:smirk2:
I'm primarily speaking of the poor, widows, and orphans in the Body. I think we should help the world, but not at the expense of our own. Sadly, we tend to leave most of that up to Social Security, Medicare, and blood family members. We take up thousands of dollars to expand or decorate the building, and take care of missionaries overseas, while many of the local congregants can't pay their light bill. We even manipulate them into giving toward our programs! I find it interesting that Jesus is not recorded as asking how much money you gave or buildings you built, but He does ask how did you take care of the hungry and needy among you. I think this refers to the least, don't you?
I'm pondering lots of things too. I'm convinced the closer we get to Jesus and the deeper our relationship with Him becomes; so many things will become more important. Actually, most important. I just find myself becoming more and more out of step with traditional "church" and its ways. Price to pay for that. So far, it's been worth it.
Keep on plugging in there doing all the things the Lord is leading you to do. Expect more changes in the months/weeks ahead.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 02:52:44 AM
Quote from: OGIA on September 14, 2008, 02:07:08 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 01:55:28 AM
Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.
There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider.
Any specifics you can give -- what false teachings, anyone in particular, any group in particular, etc?
Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? :biglaugh:
False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!
Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.
Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.
The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.
The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?
The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".
The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.
All these are the preachings of another Jesus.
Your delusional writings leave me speechless but NOT unable to respond by typing...
Let me attempt to un-delude you:
False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!You cannot lump all of "chrisianity" into the same pile. Have you considered these words of Jesus?
Mark 10:28-30
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.While some may mistakenly infer deeper meaning to the church building than as a common meeting place for believers of like faith, most understand that God's spirit dwells in the hearts of men - that we are the literal temple of God. That having been said THERE IS NOTHING WRONG - SCRIPTURALLY OR OTHERWISE - WITH HAVING A BUILDING TO WORSHIP IN.
The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.Not sure what "elitism" you are referring to, but Paul did set forth more than a few requirements for those seeking to be in the "ministry." You might read 1 Timothy 3 as a starting point.
The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years? Unnprofitable? I once spent a period of time in a "post-trib" church, and the pastor stood up and said "I dont see how God could come within the next seven years..." Highly contrary teaching as compared to the immenent return of Christ that was preached and taught by the early church (and continues to be preached today).
Read Matthew 24:42-44:
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy". The "chosen race" status of the Jews was never rescinded. Read what Paul had to say in Romans 11:25-29:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least. Not sure where you get this? The church will not be going through the "Great Tribulation," but persecution is another story. We are actually admonished in scripture that it is likely we will in fact be persecuted for Jesus Christ's name sake.
All these are the preachings of another Jesus. Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.
Shalom.
I'm sure OOJ will have his own responses, but here are mine:
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!
You cannot lump all of "chrisianity" into the same pile.
While one cannot, as you say, "lump all of Christianity into the same pile," one can recognize that what OOJ wrote is true: false teachings DO pretty much fill all of recognized Christianity. Here are some: trinitarianism; teaching that water baptism and the infilling of the Spirit are optional; training the saints - not usually by words, but by deeds - to rely solely on trained "ministers" for their spiritual feedings; the increasingly pervasive belief that Christ is but one of many ways to God; and the afore-mentioned so-called "prosperity gospel."
Regarding the last:
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
Have you considered these words of Jesus?
Mark 10:28-30
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
I believe these words of Jesus find their fulfillment at the Church's beginning as described in Acts, when it says they "had all things common." When the Church operates as she should, those who become members become without need, as they now have all the resources of all their brothers and sisters to meet their needs.
One cannot take - as "prosperity gospel" proponents have done - a passage such as this and claim that God wants to make us individually rich with the goods of this world.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.
While some may mistakenly infer deeper meaning to the church building than as a common meeting place for believers of like faith, most understand that God's spirit dwells in the hearts of men - that we are the literal temple of God. That having been said THERE IS NOTHING WRONG - SCRIPTURALLY OR OTHERWISE - WITH HAVING A BUILDING TO WORSHIP IN.
Actually, there is something wrong with "having a building to worship in": worship is something we do with our whole lives, not just when we gather together. I strongly suspect that our practice of dedicating buildings to be used solely for church gatherings has contributed greatly to the mentality of some that "worship" is something done once or twice a week, and the rest of our lives we can live as we please.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.
Not sure what "elitism" you are referring to, but Paul did set forth more than a few requirements for those seeking to be in the "ministry." You might read 1 Timothy 3 as a starting point.
I'll let OOJ define for himself what he meant by "elitism," but to me it invokes the idea - another false teaching widespread in modern Christianity - that those believers who are called to teach, preach, prophesy, evangelize and plant new churches are somehow "above" other believers. It's an idea that is usually denied verbally, but affirmed without question in reality.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
All these are the preachings of another Jesus.
Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.
Wow, doogie. Tell us how you really feel. :-?
Response to Titushome:
I'm sure OOJ will have his own responses, but here are mine:
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!
You cannot lump all of "chrisianity" into the same pile.
While one cannot, as you say, "lump all of Christianity into the same pile," one can recognize that what OOJ wrote is true: false teachings DO pretty much fill all of recognized Christianity. Here are some: trinitarianism; teaching that water baptism and the infilling of the Spirit are optional; training the saints - not usually by words, but by deeds - to rely solely on trained "ministers" for their spiritual feedings; the increasingly pervasive belief that Christ is but one of many ways to God; and the afore-mentioned so-called "prosperity gospel."
Rebuttal: OOJ's comments, to which I was responding, referenced a group of people who were apparently leaving the so-called "church system" and "pressing on into the kingdom." If OOJ were referring to those who were leaving secular religion and joining those of us who believe and practice the Apostles Doctrine, I wouldnt have taken issue. The tenor of his post and the slanderings contained therein, however, allude to the Apostilic Church teaching doctrines that are lies (his words, not mine!). We can all acknowledge that "Recognized Christianity" is full of falsehoods, but, in the context of this discussion, OOJ did not make that distinction.Regarding the last:
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
Have you considered these words of Jesus?
Mark 10:28-30
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
I believe these words of Jesus find their fulfillment at the Church's beginning as described in Acts, when it says they "had all things common." When the Church operates as she should, those who become members become without need, as they now have all the resources of all their brothers and sisters to meet their needs.
One cannot take - as "prosperity gospel" proponents have done - a passage such as this and claim that God wants to make us individually rich with the goods of this world.
Rebuttal: We can agree that those who preach a "prosperity gospel" are incorrect, but, in regard to your response to Verse 29, You are absolutely mistaken. Read Jesus words in the context of what they were discussing, and his disciples were asking basically "what are we going to get for our dedication to you - we've given up everything?" He responded that they would be blessed with physical things as well as family in this life, but that it would also come with persecution. You may also wish to read Matthew Chapter 6. Now, to be clear, I do not advocate riches and wealth as a result of "living for God," but I do believe that we will be taken care of.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.
While some may mistakenly infer deeper meaning to the church building than as a common meeting place for believers of like faith, most understand that God's spirit dwells in the hearts of men - that we are the literal temple of God. That having been said THERE IS NOTHING WRONG - SCRIPTURALLY OR OTHERWISE - WITH HAVING A BUILDING TO WORSHIP IN.
Actually, there is something wrong with "having a building to worship in": worship is something we do with our whole lives, not just when we gather together. I strongly suspect that our practice of dedicating buildings to be used solely for church gatherings has contributed greatly to the mentality of some that "worship" is something done once or twice a week, and the rest of our lives we can live as we please.\
Rebuttal: While I agree that our lives are to be lived in worship to Christ, I absolutely disagree with the premise that a building should not be dedicated as a common place of worship. While I do not for a second infer ANY spiritual meaning to the "church building," it is a functional and important element of the modern Church - if for no other reason than to assure that wholesale groups of people are ministered to by those embracing sound doctrine. Furthermore, one could ask the question whether corporate ownership of the "church building" by the associated "members" is not a much more prudent and stewardship-oriented methodology than renting or leasing. The issue of "saints" who have wrongfully developed a mentality that "worship" is sonething done twice a week wouldnt matter whether you met in someones home or a church building.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.
Not sure what "elitism" you are referring to, but Paul did set forth more than a few requirements for those seeking to be in the "ministry." You might read 1 Timothy 3 as a starting point.
I'll let OOJ define for himself what he meant by "elitism," but to me it invokes the idea - another false teaching widespread in modern Christianity - that those believers who are called to teach, preach, prophesy, evangelize and plant new churches are somehow "above" other believers. It's an idea that is usually denied verbally, but affirmed without question in reality.
Rebuttal: Again, read 1 Timothy 3. While this does not make anyone better than anyone else, it does establish a basis for leadership. And if there is "leadership," there is a pecking order. Like it or not, God has always LED his people, and the NT church is no different. If your are meaning to imply that the Apostle Paul was not above the churches he wrote to, you are mistaken. If he did not have authority, no one would have listened to what he had to say. Today, God calls Pastors who will give account for those whom they pastor. Is he "better" than the rest of the Church? No. But, he has been given spiritual authority, and as such, those of us who are saints, are subject to that authority. He is not a lord over God's heritage, rather a shepherd to guide us in truth. That having been said, a Pastor is not a substitute for the Infilling of the Holy Ghost, which will lead us and guide us into all truth.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
All these are the preachings of another Jesus.
Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.
Wow, doogie. Tell us how you really feel. :-?
Response: I will ferociously and vociferiously defend what I believe to be truth. There are those who may read this board who could be led astray by some who post their false interpretations of scripture. While I may inadequately defend scripture, I will at least make an attempt to do so. Consider that OOJ postulated that doctrines I hold sacred are in fact lies. A pacifistic response is not acceptable. I believe him to be of a contentious spirit and find his writings to be false doctrine.
Added later:
I also would say this: If OOJ's approach were one of "I have studied the scripture, and as such this is what I believe," I might respond differently. However, when he calls basic doctrinal beliefs "lies," it is disturbing. As such, I feel the need to be very very clear that I do not agree with his posting. I might add that I do not use the word "delusional" lightly - rather I see it as a sad end to those who choose to reinterpret Truth to fit their belief system.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 02:52:44 AM
Quote from: OGIA on September 14, 2008, 02:07:08 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 01:55:28 AM
Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.
There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider.
Any specifics you can give -- what false teachings, anyone in particular, any group in particular, etc?
Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? :biglaugh:
False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!
Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.
Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.
The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.
The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?
The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".
The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.
All these are the preachings of another Jesus.
Your delusional writings leave me speechless but NOT unable to respond by typing...
Let me attempt to un-delude you:
False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!
You cannot lump all of "chrisianity" into the same pile. Have you considered these words of Jesus?
Mark 10:28-30
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Titus is so much more eloquent than I. I hope to at least add some things for you.
******************************************************************
The last time I checked the Bible, the church - believers in Jesus Christ, also called Christianity - is called the Body of Christ. A body is singular and not plural. Did not Paul say the Body is one? Lumping Christianity into numerous piles would create another Jesus. But wait, isn't that what religion has done? Create a Jesus body not like scripture?
All prosperity teaching focuses on one thing only: THE FLESH. What's in it for me? If I do this, what do I get and when? The kingdom of God is not a stock market wherein returns come with investments. The Kingdom of God is the kingdom of our Christ; it is He who has made the investment in us thru redemption. It is He who expects a return for Himself. We are His creation, formed for His pleasure. Not the other way around. Jesus is not a genie who comes out of the magic Bible; nor is He bound by the incantation of sacred words. Much of what we see, and the attitude shown is that of carnal men hiding behind religious sounding phrases.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
This has been dealt with in Apostolic Truth pages 6-10 or thereabouts. The list of all scriptural references to tithing is there for consideration.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.
While some may mistakenly infer deeper meaning to the church building than as a common meeting place for believers of like faith, most understand that God's spirit dwells in the hearts of men - that we are the literal temple of God. That having been said THERE IS NOTHING WRONG - SCRIPTURALLY OR OTHERWISE - WITH HAVING A BUILDING TO WORSHIP IN.
No there's not. However, there is not an admonition or example to do so either.
The error comes when said building is transformed into "the house of God". The error comes when such building is considered "holy" and sacred. The error comes when the building becomes the identity of the saints. The error comes when the upkeep and maintenance of said building prevents proper care of congregational widows, orphans, and poor folks.
There is a reason the Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed by God.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.
Not sure what "elitism" you are referring to, but Paul did set forth more than a few requirements for those seeking to be in the "ministry." You might read 1 Timothy 3 as a starting point.
Elitism referring to a separate caste system as in priesthood. The current Protestant system is taken from the Catholic system, which is based upon the Judaist system, as well as influxes from pagan rites.
The ministry Paul spoke of is nothing like what we currently perceive to be correct. According to scripture, we are all equal priests and equal brethren in Christ. Here there are no big I's and little U's. No such thing as laity. That is what the unbelievers practice. Jesus said it shall not be so among you.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?
Unnprofitable? I once spent a period of time in a "post-trib" church, and the pastor stood up and said "I dont see how God could come within the next seven years..." Highly contrary teaching as compared to the immenent return of Christ that was preached and taught by the early church (and continues to be preached today).
Read Matthew 24:42-44:
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Actually, the early church clearly understood the Lord would return on the seventh day or 7000 years from Adam. They understood the Feasts were types of the 2 comings of the Lord; spring/religious/lamb and fall/civil/king. There is no record of a pre-trib rapture anywhere in scripture or history prior to the early 1800's. The closest the Bible comes to recording this teaching is when Paul talks about some false teachers who said the resurrection had already occurred. Nowhere in the Bible is there any proof of this deceit. Scripture tells us over and over that the Lord will come after the tribulation, on the last day. BTW, you haven't found the answer to an earlier question yet, have you? The question about which is first the resurrection or the rapture? Well, the answer is the resurrection of the righteous dead, immediately followed by the catching away with them, of the living. Scripture only records 2 resurrections: just and unjust. If the rapture occurs first, how can the martyred tribulation saints be saved? The only resurrection left is of the damned.
Jesus said 4 times in St John chapter six that the resurrection is on the last day. That last day is the 7000th year from Adam & the 3000th from Christ; where He raises up His temple. You know - the temple of His Body. The false teaching of an imminent return steals the hope of a future by discouraging education, discouraging self-improvement, discouraging relationships, discouraging preparation for life. It also builds up huge mountain of despair when the event doesn't happen. I'm old enough to remember that we weren't supposed to be here beyond the year 2000. Well, we are! Check with some folks and see how unprofitable it left their life. See what would have been done differently if this error had not been stressed so diligently. Check your history and you'll find this teaching began around the year 1830. America has exported it around the world, along with the prosperity message. Ask other nations how unprofitable it's been.
Also, it keeps us unprepared for what's coming upon us all. Like the foolish virgins who took no extra oil - made no preparations beyond midnight - today's church will find itself going thru circumstances it never had to. Re-check the Book. Do a web-search and you'll see what scripture really says.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".
The "chosen race" status of the Jews was never rescinded. Read what Paul had to say in Romans 11:25-29:
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Scripture says a Jew is one inwardly circumcised of the heart; and not outwardly circumcised by the flesh. Israel is no longer identified by the flesh but by the spirit. Paul said: know no man after the flesh. The Israel spoken of in Romans is the Israel of God - Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ Jesus. That is the "all Israel", not the natural nation. Jesus said because they failed to recognize His coming to them, there house would be made desolate. He cursed the fig tree as a type of national Israel. The fig tree would never again bear fruit. In 70 AD, the Temple was burned to the ground forever. The error of natural Israel somehow being sacred and holy while rejecting the Messiah, is ludicrous. I think it close to blasphemy. Many Jews will ultimately come to Christ and be saved, but it won't be because they are more holy or special than anyone else. Natural Jerusalem is the bond-woman Hagar; while New Jerusalem is the mother of promise Sarah. The bond-woman has been left desolate.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.
Not sure where you get this? The church will not be going through the "Great Tribulation," but persecution is another story. We are actually admonished in scripture that it is likely we will in fact be persecuted for Jesus Christ's name sake.
Most American Christians do not think persecution will happen to them. It is beyond their scope of reasoning. Persecution to an American is not being able to pray in school. Or, somebody cussed me out in the check out line. Or, they made fun of me because I'm Pentecostal, or Baptist, or Assembly of God. That's not persecution.
Americans do not think persecution will happen to them because the rapture will keep us from that. We won't be here when such bad things come to pass. We will be persecuted, imprisoned, and killed in this country. Again, take a closer look at the book w/o pre-conceived assumptions. We'll be here.
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
All these are the preachings of another Jesus.
Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.
Now that might be persecution. Calling those things you can't scripturally or historically refute "corrupt, possibly satanically - deluded". I do believe that if we were face-to-face, you'd probably hit me. Reminds me of the Sanhedrin confronting Stephen: foaming at the mouth with rage at his words. I hear religion speaking. And religion always presents another Jesus.
But aren't we talking about how the carnal leaven has slipped into the unleavened Body? Aren't carnal things "possibly satanically-deluded and corrupt"? I was asked for some examples of deceit and I gave them. So far, all you've done is rant and rave over some tried & true religious responses. None of which prove anything I've said to be incorrect. Scripture tells us to put on the mind of Christ. Now, Jesus has a glorified, immortal, incorruptible head attached to His Body. When I put on Christ, then corruption has put on incorruption and my understandings/thoughts are his and not my own. Therefore, they cannot come from a possibly corrupt, satanically-deluded mind. Isn't it more likely religion harbors the mind you've accused me of? Isn't it more likely the deceit comes from that interpretation of scripture?
Remember, 10 of the 12 spies were wrong. 10 of the 12 tribes worshipped the calf at Dan. Only 8 people thought it would rain. Majority consensus didn't apply then. What makes you think it does now?
Quote from: doogie on September 15, 2008, 10:33:44 PM
Response to Titushome:
Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.
Wow, doogie. Tell us how you really feel. :-?
Response: I will ferociously and vociferiously defend what I believe to be truth. There are those who may read this board who could be led astray by some who post their false interpretations of scripture. While I may inadequately defend scripture, I will at least make an attempt to do so. Consider that OOJ postulated that doctrines I hold sacred are in fact lies. A pacifistic response is not acceptable. I believe him to be of a contentious spirit and find his writings to be false doctrine.
Added later:
I also would say this: If OOJ's approach were one of "I have studied the scripture, and as such this is what I believe," I might respond differently. However, when he calls basic doctrinal beliefs "lies," it is disturbing. As such, I feel the need to be very very clear that I do not agree with his posting. I might add that I do not use the word "delusional" lightly - rather I see it as a sad end to those who choose to reinterpret Truth to fit their belief system. [/quote]
All Right. Thanks for making it plain. I appreciate that.
I am contentious, but not in the way you and others here believe. Apparently, you find anyone who challenges the religious conclusions of your doctrine to be in error. Apparently, you and other such ones are incapable of being deceived. It has to be someone else. Isn't that what Adam and Eve said when God revealed their error? Oh I'm contentious alright. I'm doing the best I can to reason & persuade everyone who will listen. I want religion to be destroyed out of the Body of Christ so we can all be like Him. That's what I want.
Why is something false only when "I" don't agree with it? Wherever I am today in my relationship with God - the deepest deeps and highest highs and truth understood - each step required exposing something false. Not one of us here today got here knowing everything. We all had to re-evaluate what we thought was true. I have yet to see a stopping place for that event. Not this side of Heaven anyway.
You find it false doctrine, even though you have yet to seriously study things out. At least as far as I can tell. Some things take weeks, months, and even years to recognize. You can't do it with one quick scan. Disagree all you want. Just do it after serious consideration and searching of scripture.
I might add that I do not use the word "delusional" lightly - rather I see it as a sad end to those who choose to reinterpret Truth to fit their belief systemWhat do you think a mixture of leavened bread and unleavened bread is? It is up to us to allow the HG to kill off the leaven and totally remove it. You can't do that only hearing a particular denominational doctrine or hearing particular denominational interpretations or fellowshipping with particular denominational saints. The Body is so much bigger than that and will feed itself. What your denominational saint cannot tell you, another saint can. Eventually there will be no denominations, just one united Body of Christ with Jesus as the Head. Together we can clearly see the real wolves among the sheep.
Doogie, your response has been one of the flesh and not the Spirit. It was the same response seen over and over in scripture by the Sanhedrin and enemies of God. I don't think that was the intent. I've disagreed with many here myself. That happens in discussion. Don't be so quick to condemn what you don't understand. I really don't care what you call me. I figure I'm in good company. :teeth:
Quote from: doogie on September 15, 2008, 10:33:44 PM
Rebuttal: OOJ's comments, to which I was responding, referenced a group of people who were apparently leaving the so-called "church system" and "pressing on into the kingdom." If OOJ were referring to those who were leaving secular religion and joining those of us who believe and practice the Apostles Doctrine, I wouldnt have taken issue. The tenor of his post and the slanderings contained therein, however, allude to the Apostilic Church teaching doctrines that are lies (his words, not mine!). We can all acknowledge that "Recognized Christianity" is full of falsehoods, but, in the context of this discussion, OOJ did not make that distinction.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I didn't make that distinction either. And that was intentional.
There's only ONE Church, doogie - and what we in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries have come to call "the Apostolic church" ain't it. The one true Church is the Church that has Jesus Christ as its head; it's the Church that is washed in His blood, filled with His Spirit, following His teachings, and conforming to His image.
No, I'm not attacking or even criticizing the apostolic movement that began in the early twentieth century; that's not my purpose here. All I'm saying is that equating that movement with the Church of God, which you seem to be doing - correct me if I'm wrong - is a mistake.
As far as "the Apostolic church teaching doctrines that are lies," many Apostolic churches I've been part of have taught and enforced the following incorrect doctrines and practices:
1. They typically set up one man, the pastor, as the sovereign head of the local assembly, and he is to be obeyed more or less without question, excepted only when he is in obvious violation of the Scriptures.
2. They typically teach, or at least imply, that the pastor somehow has a special relationship with God that the rest of the saints can't have, as evidenced by such sayings as "God will tell the pastor things he won't tell you or me," or "the pastor is empowered to make rules because God gives him the wisdom to know what's best for his church."
3. They typically refer to assemblies by the pastor's name, as in "Bro. So-and-so's church." It's not his church; it's Jesus' church.
4. They typically teach, all denials to the contrary, that the church building is sanctified. Thus we refer to the building as "the church" or "the house of God," we hear parents telling their children not to run "in church," and we are often told that when we enter the church building we are in the presence of God - as if we're not in His presence
outside the building.
5. They typically teach that regular attendance of scheduled meetings is mandatory, and that the faithfulness of anyone who misses a meeting is to be questioned.
I could go on, but I won't. These things, I believe, are the trappings of religion. They hamper, rather than help, the Body of Christ.
And yes, each is a perversion of something genuine: there really is a genuine role within the Church for pastors, building and meetings. But I'm not talking about the way things
should be; I'm talking about the way things often
are, about the errors that are passed off in our churches as gospel truth.
Quote from: doogie on September 15, 2008, 10:33:44 PM
Rebuttal: We can agree that those who preach a "prosperity gospel" are incorrect, but, in regard to your response to Verse 29, You are absolutely mistaken. Read Jesus words in the context of what they were discussing, and his disciples were asking basically "what are we going to get for our dedication to you - we've given up everything?" He responded that they would be blessed with physical things as well as family in this life, but that it would also come with persecution. You may also wish to read Matthew Chapter 6. Now, to be clear, I do not advocate riches and wealth as a result of "living for God," but I do believe that we will be taken care of.
I guess I'm failing to see the distinction between what I wrote and what you wrote; it seems to me like two different ways of describing the same thing.
Quote from: doogie on September 15, 2008, 10:33:44 PM
Rebuttal: While I agree that our lives are to be lived in worship to Christ, I absolutely disagree with the premise that a building should not be dedicated as a common place of worship. While I do not for a second infer ANY spiritual meaning to the "church building," it is a functional and important element of the modern Church - if for no other reason than to assure that wholesale groups of people are ministered to by those embracing sound doctrine. Furthermore, one could ask the question whether corporate ownership of the "church building" by the associated "members" is not a much more prudent and stewardship-oriented methodology than renting or leasing. The issue of "saints" who have wrongfully developed a mentality that "worship" is sonething done twice a week wouldnt matter whether you met in someones home or a church building.
These are valid points, but while you "do not for a second infer ANY spiritual meaning to the 'church building,' " many if not most believers do. This is a grievous error, with disastrous results, that needs to be corrected.
Quote from: doogie on September 15, 2008, 10:33:44 PM
Rebuttal: Again, read 1 Timothy 3. While this does not make anyone better than anyone else, it does establish a basis for leadership. And if there is "leadership," there is a pecking order. Like it or not, God has always LED his people, and the NT church is no different. If your are meaning to imply that the Apostle Paul was not above the churches he wrote to, you are mistaken. If he did not have authority, no one would have listened to what he had to say. Today, God calls Pastors who will give account for those whom they pastor. Is he "better" than the rest of the Church? No. But, he has been given spiritual authority, and as such, those of us who are saints, are subject to that authority. He is not a lord over God's heritage, rather a shepherd to guide us in truth. That having been said, a Pastor is not a substitute for the Infilling of the Holy Ghost, which will lead us and guide us into all truth.
The leadership described in the NT by Jesus and His disciples is leadership by example, by virtue of spiritual maturity, wisdom and experience. Thus there is no "pecking order." Within the Church, one does not have to be "above" another in order to exercise authority. This, rather, is the way of the world; but Jesus said it would not be so among us.
Otherwise, I heartily agree with everything you wrote, especially the parts I bolded.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 16, 2008, 06:26:01 AM
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 06:15:29 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 02:52:44 AM
Quote from: OGIA on September 14, 2008, 02:07:08 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 01:55:28 AM
Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.
There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider.
Any specifics you can give -- what false teachings, anyone in particular, any group in particular, etc?
Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? :biglaugh:
False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!
Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.
Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.
The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.
The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?
The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".
The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.
All these are the preachings of another Jesus.
Your delusional writings leave me speechless but NOT unable to respond by typing...
Let me attempt to un-delude you:
False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!
You cannot lump all of "chrisianity" into the same pile. Have you considered these words of Jesus?
Mark 10:28-30
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Titus is so much more eloquent than I. I hope to at least add some things for you.
******************************************************************
The last time I checked the Bible, the church - believers in Jesus Christ, also called Christianity - is called the Body of Christ. A body is singular and not plural. Did not Paul say the Body is one? Lumping Christianity into numerous piles would create another Jesus. But wait, isn't that what religion has done? Create a Jesus body not like scripture?
All prosperity teaching focuses on one thing only: THE FLESH. What's in it for me? If I do this, what do I get and when? The kingdom of God is not a stock market wherein returns come with investments. The Kingdom of God is the kingdom of our Christ; it is He who has made the investment in us thru redemption. It is He who expects a return for Himself. We are His creation, formed for His pleasure. Not the other way around. Jesus is not a genie who comes out of the magic Bible; nor is He bound by the incantation of sacred words. Much of what we see, and the attitude shown is that of carnal men hiding behind religious sounding phrases.
Um sure. So, please tell me exactly what Jesus was referring to, if not the obvious "carnal" things he mentioned? I am not for a second defending the idea of doing "spiritual things" for earthly gain, but I do believe that God will bless us if we seek HIS kingdom first.
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 12:50:41 AM
So, please tell me exactly what Jesus was referring to, if not the obvious "carnal" things he mentioned? I am not for a second defending the idea of doing "spiritual things" for earthly gain, but I do believe that God will bless us if we seek HIS kingdom first.
When Jesus referred to His followers being given the things of this world, He wasn't saying that we would be "blessed" with the abundance of material goods to which we in modern America have become accustomed - He was simply saying, as you said earlier, that our needs would be met; that no member of His family would be lacking for the physical necessities of life.
You wrote that "God will bless us if we seek HIS kingdom first." This is absolutely true. But the words of Jesus and the writings of His disciples speak a great deal more about the
spiritual blessings/riches we are to receive than the
physical. The only thing we are promised with regard to physical goods is that God will meet our basic needs.
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 12:50:41 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 01:55:28 AM
The last time I checked the Bible, the church - believers in Jesus Christ, also called Christianity - is called the Body of Christ. A body is singular and not plural. Did not Paul say the Body is one? Lumping Christianity into numerous piles would create another Jesus. But wait, isn't that what religion has done? Create a Jesus body not like scripture?
All prosperity teaching focuses on one thing only: THE FLESH. What's in it for me? If I do this, what do I get and when? The kingdom of God is not a stock market wherein returns come with investments. The Kingdom of God is the kingdom of our Christ; it is He who has made the investment in us thru redemption. It is He who expects a return for Himself. We are His creation, formed for His pleasure. Not the other way around. Jesus is not a genie who comes out of the magic Bible; nor is He bound by the incantation of sacred words. Much of what we see, and the attitude shown is that of carnal men hiding behind religious sounding phrases.
Um sure. So, please tell me exactly what Jesus was referring to, if not the obvious "carnal" things he mentioned? I am not for a second defending the idea of doing "spiritual things" for earthly gain, but I do believe that God will bless us if we seek HIS kingdom first.
[/b]
We seem to forget that there is no need to seek "blessings" at all. We can't get any more blessed than we already are!
Christ in you - is the biggest blessing of them all! It dwarfs everything thing else! Truly, what more do we need to seek? Oh yeah, we need to seek the "blessings of Abraham" don't we? We need to seek all Abe's
stuff. And that is what the prosperity gospel is all about.... giving to gain stuff.
There is nothing wrong with petioning nor expecting the Lord to provide "carnal" things. He know what we have need of in our lives. Yes, He will add all things to us
IF we seek the kingdom first. All things we need --- shelter, food, clothes, spending money, & even many of our wants. He promised to take care of us. The kingdom of God - first and foremost - is spiritual. It is bringing His rule and His reign in earth; just like the Prayer says. Read the Lord's Prayer again.
Notice it does not say: thy will be done
on earth; it says: thy will be done
in earth.
Thy will be done in this earthen vessel. Bring me under subjection to Your rule, Your reign, Your authority, just as the inhabitants of Heaven. That is what seeking the kingdom is all about. Then, because our focus is concentrated upon that, and our faith is in Him - He will add to our lives all the things we need and usually, desire. There is no need to seek "blessings" at all. Absolutely none. He is a good Father who provides for His children. He is a faithful Husband who provides for His Bride. Just trust Him.
Then we will give from the heart toward those "carnal things" needed by the Body. Then we will more easily discern what is truly being asked of God and what is asked of Man. No need to seek properity; it will already be there. What I have- I give because He has given me the means to meet your need. Or at least give toward it.
The church, on the other hand, envisions grand things for God and sets off on their own devices to bring it to pass. We go into debt to do it and then demand the congregation to pay it off. Doesn't the Bible warn us not to get into debt? Doesn't it say to owe no man anything? Yet so many turn to a false prosperity teaching to manipulate the sheep into footing the bill for Man's Kingdom. That's why it always falls to enticement to covet. Covet Abraham's material wealth.
You can have it too. God wants you to have it. All you have to do is give to my ministry. Just sow your seed for a hundred-fold return. God will provide it for you, if you give it to me. That's not the kingdom of God.
If the "carnal" things I "give up" for Christ lead to them being multiplied and returned to me ONE HUNDRED FOLD, how is this NOT a blessing above and beyond the basic necessities of life? Please respond without "spiritualizing" what was a "carnal" conversation between Jesus and his Disciples.
I am also curious as to why anyone would want to water down this promise that came from the mouth of God himself?
Titushome:
Please see my comments below.
Previously you wrote:
As far as "the Apostolic church teaching doctrines that are lies," many Apostolic churches I've been part of have taught and enforced the following incorrect doctrines and practices:
1. They typically set up one man, the pastor, as the sovereign head of the local assembly, and he is to be obeyed more or less without question, excepted only when he is in obvious violation of the Scriptures.
Response: The local "assembly" is a corporate body. Of course the pastor is the "leader" of the group. You are an intelligent person, how could you possibly believe that Pastor's are not ordained in scripture? Read 1 Timothy 3 where requirements for a "Bishop" are set forth, then deacons as well. What could Paul have possibly intended if not leadership? That having been said, there are boundaries, and if a "pastor" oversteps them, it can lead to problems.
2. They typically teach, or at least imply, that the pastor somehow has a special relationship with God that the rest of the saints can't have, as evidenced by such sayings as "God will tell the pastor things he won't tell you or me," or "the pastor is empowered to make rules because God gives him the wisdom to know what's best for his church."
Response: This teaching is most certainly modeled by the scriptural principles laid out in Epehsians 4:11-14:.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
A strong case could be made that rather than seeking advice from "friends" on an internet board, a church member should rather seek Godly counsel from their pastor - this could protect them from being led astray by what Paul refers to as the "sleight of men."
3. They typically refer to assemblies by the pastor's name, as in "Bro. So-and-so's church." It's not his church; it's Jesus' church.
Response: This is just chilidsh hyperbole on your part. The loose reference to a church as "Bro. So & So's church" is simply an easy reference tio a particular body of believers and has ZERO significance beyond that.
4. They typically teach, all denials to the contrary, that the church building is sanctified. Thus we refer to the building as "the church" or "the house of God," we hear parents telling their children not to run "in church," and we are often told that when we enter the church building we are in the presence of God - as if we're not in His presence outside the building.
Response: The effort to maintain a certain level of decorum is noble, and should be upheld. Unruly children running through the church is no different than unruly children running around in a restaurant - it is strongly looked down upon, and is disruptive to the experience of others. Actions that are distracting to others attempting to glean from the preaching of the Gospel of Christ should be discouraged in the church building. Furthermore, calling it the House Of God is not wrong - it is in fact a building dedicated to worship and the furtherance of the gospel. As far as the "presence of God" comment, maybe you are injecting humor? Of course God is omnipresent, however, as worship ensues, there is often an additional presence of God that visits the assembled worshippers. If you have not experienced this personally, I am deeply saddened for you. After all, this is supposed to be a a "spiritual" church. References to "entering the presence of God" are most likely a throback to the tabernacle and are intended to be symbolic, ie: The priest set aside his daily routine once a year and entered the Holy of Holies. When we come to church, we should set aside our cares and thoughts and enter into a time of corporate worship.
Added later You may also want to read the following NT verses that refer to the House Of God:
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
I guess Paul and Peter were mistaken when they referrd to the "Church Facility" as the "House Of God"
5. They typically teach that regular attendance of scheduled meetings is mandatory, and that the faithfulness of anyone who misses a meeting is to be questioned.
Response: Faithfulness is in fact revealed by attendance. How would your work feel if you missed several times a week, or were late every day? You'd probably be fired. It is only natural that a "corporate body" would be concerned about "members" who are not faithful to church.
I could go on, but I won't. These things, I believe, are the trappings of religion. They hamper, rather than help, the Body of Christ.
Response: Your comments reveal a lot about how you feel about what some refer to as "church government." How does it hinder the Body of Christ to have a pastor who cares for the saints under his charge? How does it hinder the Body Of Christ to have a building to worship in? How does it hinder the Body of Christ to discourage activites that disrupt the worship environment? How does it hinder the Body of Christ to encourage regular attendance to church - primarily so that the preaching of the Word of God can change and shape the Christain's life?
Answer: It doesnt.
That having been said, none of the aforementioned "practices" preclude a Christian from living for God in their daily lives, reading his word, paying their tithes, giving to the poor, etc.
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 04:18:12 PM
If the "carnal" things I "give up" for Christ lead to them being multiplied and returned to me ONE HUNDRED FOLD, how is this NOT a blessing above and beyond the basic necessities of life? Please respond without "spiritualizing" what was a "carnal" conversation between Jesus and his Disciples.
I am also curious as to why anyone would want to water down this promise that came from the mouth of God himself?
First... Jesus said the words He spoke were spirit and life. You can't un-spiritualize anything Jesus said. It is the flesh interpretations of religion that does so.
The answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive onehundredfold and shall inherit eternal life. (Mt 20:27-29)The hundredfold is not referring to material increase. It is referring to restoration. Let me explain.
Forsaken here means to "yield up". What was yielded up in search of the Kingdom? Houses, brethren, family, spouse, children, and property/possessions. God will give every bit of it back if you surrender it to Him. If I do not seek or worry about the "carnal/natural" things that go with life - the Father will add it to me. It means - if God so clothe the flowers of the field and feed the sparrow, how much more will He provide for us? It's not about trying to attain the carnal things, but rather seek the kingdom of God and to be conformed to His image. Be aware of needs? Sure, but don't focus on them.
Listen to what's preached. Listen to what many saints think will cause God to provide {bless} them.
I'm in need of _____. I'll sow a seed of faith into _______ ministry. Give to get is the order of the day. Does that sound like God's kingdom?
Again. Nothing wrong with being blessed above the necessities of life. That's good! It leaves us open to meet the needs of others and be a "blessing" to them. It's not a token of spirituality or a measure of righteousness. It's not to build bigger churches, or buy bigger equipment, or more stuff. It's to help provide for the Body.
Our church system in America, is predominantly focused upon getting and not giving. It's focused upon the flesh and not the spirit. I hope that is clearer.
Let me say this one more time:
Please explain to me how you can derive any meaning from Jesus words in Mark 10:30 other than what the PLAIN TEXT reads?
Im waiting...
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PM
1. They typically set up one man, the pastor, as the sovereign head of the local assembly, and he is to be obeyed more or less without question, excepted only when he is in obvious violation of the Scriptures.
Response: The local "assembly" is a corporate body. Of course the pastor is the "leader" of the group. You are an intelligent person, how could you possibly believe that Pastor's are not ordained in scripture? Read 1 Timothy 3 where requirements for a "Bishop" are set forth, then deacons as well. What could Paul have possibly intended if not leadership? That having been said, there are boundaries, and if a "pastor" oversteps them, it can lead to problems.
Allow me to clarify what I meant: of course there are human leaders within the body of Christ. But note my exact words, by which I described a typical pastor "as the sovereign head of the local assembly, [who] is to be obeyed more or less without question." There's a big difference between a
leader and a
sovereign head.
A leader provides guidance, and leads by making himself an example. His guidance is heeded because his spiritual maturity and wisdom are recognized by all.
A sovereign head, however - which is, to some degree, how most pastors these days function - issues directives to be obeyed, and obedience is due him because of his position, regardless of his personal maturity, wisdom, or alignment with the mind of God in a given situation.
Don't believe that most pastors function as sovereign heads? Consider the following: I've been a Christian for most of my life, over twenty-five years, and in that time I've been part of at least ten different churches, and visited countless more. In that time I've heard preached and taught
ad nauseam that to disobey one's pastor is to disobey God; that the pastor alone is tasked with "casting a vision" for the church, which all others are to give their full support; that, as I wrote before, the pastor has a special relationship with God that the rest of the saints can't have; that the pastor alone can baptize; that the pastor is primarily charged with the instruction of the saints; that the pastor is empowered to makes binding rules upon the saints in "his" church.
In all these things and more, the pastor effectively replaces Christ as the functional head of the church.
Contrast this with, for example, your pastor and mine: he does not make demands of obedience, but rather provides counsel. He makes a strong effort to include all who want to be included in planning and executing church events. While he shoulders the bulk of the preaching and teaching, he also utilizes the teaching gifts of numerous others within the church, and does so for a substantial amount of the teaching that goes forth. I've never heard him claim, explicitly or implicitly, to have a special relationship with God that others cannot; to the contrary, he regularly emphasizes his equality with the rest of the saints. And he has never, as far as I've heard, laid down rules to be followed.
But our pastor, in my experience, is an exception to the rule. Most other pastors I've encountered over the years, whether I heard them speak only once or whether I assembled with them for years, have been guilty, in small degree or large, of at least some of the things I've described above. Even worse, perhaps, is that many non-pastoring preachers and teachers I've heard over the years have with their words reinforced these erroneous ideas.
On the other hand, most pastors I've known have been spiritually mature, wise, and Christlike in most ways. Yet this does not change their guilt regarding their incorrect ways of relating to the rest of the Body. I actually had one former pastor, a man I love dearly and greatly admire, describe himself to me as "God's representative" - I almost leapt out of my seat when he said that! Yet I've found it to be a typical attitude among church leaders today.
continued...
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PM
2. They typically teach, or at least imply, that the pastor somehow has a special relationship with God that the rest of the saints can't have, as evidenced by such sayings as "God will tell the pastor things he won't tell you or me," or "the pastor is empowered to make rules because God gives him the wisdom to know what's best for his church."
Response: This teaching is most certainly modeled by the scriptural principles laid out in Epehsians 4:11-14:.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
A strong case could be made that rather than seeking advice from "friends" on an internet board, a church member should rather seek Godly counsel from their pastor - this could protect them from being led astray by what Paul refers to as the "sleight of men."
Ephesians 4:11-14 in NO way supports the erroneous idea that, as I wrote before, "the pastor somehow has a special relationship with God that the rest of the saints can't have, as evidenced by such sayings as 'God will tell the pastor things he won't tell you or me,' or 'the pastor is empowered to make rules because God gives him the wisdom to know what's best for his church.' " These conceptions are wholly unfounded on the Scriptures.
Ephesians 4:11-14 DOES tell us that God has gifted some men with the abilities to plant churches (apostles), to prophesy, to preach (evangelists), and to teach - with the goals that the saints be perfected, and the Body of Christ edified. This passage describes
functions within the Church more than it describes
positions over the Church. The entire NT is infused with the idea that all saints are equal under Christ. See Matthew 20:25-28, Luke 22:24-26, and Matthew 23:8-12 for starters.
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PM
3. They typically refer to assemblies by the pastor's name, as in "Bro. So-and-so's church." It's not his church; it's Jesus' church.
Response: This is just chilidsh hyperbole on your part. The loose reference to a church as "Bro. So & So's church" is simply an easy reference tio a particular body of believers and has ZERO significance beyond that.
If it was simply a matter of easy reference, I wouldn't have mentioned it. But when a church is identified with its pastor - not just his name, but his personality, preaching style, etc. - when his name appears on the sign board, and when he is empowered, as I described above, to govern the church as he sees fit - then it's only natural to
think of it as "his" church, as opposed to merely referring to it by his name.
continued...
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PM
4. They typically teach, all denials to the contrary, that the church building is sanctified. Thus we refer to the building as "the church" or "the house of God," we hear parents telling their children not to run "in church," and we are often told that when we enter the church building we are in the presence of God - as if we're not in His presence outside the building.
Response: The effort to maintain a certain level of decorum is noble, and should be upheld.
Since when? Do you have Scripture to back up that idea? Or is it simply a tradition to which you are accustomed?
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PMUnruly children running through the church is no different than unruly children running around in a restaurant - it is strongly looked down upon, and is disruptive to the experience of others. Actions that are distracting to others attempting to glean from the preaching of the Gospel of Christ should be discouraged in the church building.
I agree that no one should be permitted to disrupt the work of God taking place during the meeting. But I was referring more generally to those who take the tack that such behavior in the church building is wrong
because it's the church building - as though the building itself had some special significance. If it's not taking place during the meeting, then it's a whole different issue.
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PMFurthermore, calling it the House Of God is not wrong - it is in fact a building dedicated to worship and the furtherance of the gospel. As far as the "presence of God" comment, maybe you are injecting humor? Of course God is omnipresent, however, as worship ensues, there is often an additional presence of God that visits the assembled worshippers. If you have not experienced this personally, I am deeply saddened for you. After all, this is supposed to be a a "spiritual" church. References to "entering the presence of God" are most likely a throback to the tabernacle and are intended to be symbolic, ie: The priest set aside his daily routine once a year and entered the Holy of Holies. When we come to church, we should set aside our cares and thoughts and enter into a time of corporate worship.
I have experienced that, many times. But I would describe the experience as becoming more attuned to God's presence, as opposed to a supposed "additional presence of God." The importance of this distinction is highlighted by your last statement above: should we not strive
all the time to be more attuned to God's presence among and within us? Jesus was undoubtedly far more acutely aware of God's enduring presence than we usually are, and I want to be more like Him.
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PM
Added later You may also want to read the following NT verses that refer to the House Of God:
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
I guess Paul and Peter were mistaken when they referrd to the "Church Facility" as the "House Of God"
No, they were not mistaken, but neither were they referring to a building as "the house of God." Read I Timothy 3:15 again: "the house of God,
which is the church of the living God." It's the people, doogie - NOT the building. God no longer dwells in temples made with hands, remember? The same goes for I Peter 4:17 - we could rephrase that verse to say, "judgment must begin with the people of God." That this is what Peter meant is made clear with his very next phrase, "and if it first begin
at us."
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PM
5. They typically teach that regular attendance of scheduled meetings is mandatory, and that the faithfulness of anyone who misses a meeting is to be questioned.
Response: Faithfulness is in fact revealed by attendance. How would your work feel if you missed several times a week, or were late every day? You'd probably be fired. It is only natural that a "corporate body" would be concerned about "members" who are not faithful to church.
My regular presence at the office is an explicit condition of my employment. But nowhere in the Scriptures will you find regular attendance of church meetings to be a requirement of Church membership. Yes, for sure, we are instructed to "not forsake the assembling of [ourselves] together" - but that's it. There's no requirement regarding when to meet, or where, or how frequently, or even that the frequency be regular. God leaves that up to us; it's a heart issue.
And while it's only natural, as you wrote in your last statement, for us to be concerned when a brother or sister is hit-and-miss when it comes assembling with the rest of the Body, what I've seen usually crosses the line from concern into judgment, where a saint is looked down upon and gossiped about for any absence that is more than occasional. The frequency with which my family is not present at our church meetings, for example, would probably be considered suspect in the minds of many Christians I've known, without regard for the
reasons we're not there: assembling with another group of believers instead, or caring for a fussy baby, or taking a little vacation, or whatever.
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PM
I could go on, but I won't. These things, I believe, are the trappings of religion. They hamper, rather than help, the Body of Christ.
Response: Your comments reveal a lot about how you feel about what some refer to as "church government." How does it hinder the Body of Christ to have a pastor who cares for the saints under his charge? How does it hinder the Body Of Christ to have a building to worship in? How does it hinder the Body of Christ to discourage activites that disrupt the worship environment? How does it hinder the Body of Christ to encourage regular attendance to church - primarily so that the preaching of the Word of God can change and shape the Christain's life?
Answer: It doesnt.
That having been said, none of the aforementioned "practices" preclude a Christian from living for God in their daily lives, reading his word, paying their tithes, giving to the poor, etc.
I hope my elaborations have made more clear to you what I'm talking about when I say these things hinder, rather than help, the Body.
It is true, as you wrote, that none of these things prevent an individual believer from walking with God one-on-one, but what I'm talking about is the proper functioning of
the Body. And while the misfunction of the Body won't outright block any individual believer from pursuing God as deeply as they want to, I believe it can and often does negatively impact the spiritual growth of the individual saints.
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:38:02 PM
Let me say this one more time:
Please explain to me how you can derive any meaning from Jesus words in Mark 10:30 other than what the PLAIN TEXT reads?
Im waiting...
I thought I did. Why don't you explain how it means what you're saying.
Actually, if you back up to the beginning of their conversation in verse 17, we see the rich ruler who had great possessions. He chose not to forsake those possessions for the sake of the kingdom. The disciples were astonished and wanted to know who could be saved. Then comes the primary question: what about us?
That leads to my earlier reply. The point still remains that gaining possessions is not the focal point of following Christ. He will provide all that we need w/o our seeking them. He will determine the abundance - and/or lack thereof - among His people. The prosperity gospel totally ignores that.
The term "house of God" correlates directly with "house of David". Also with "and all his house", used often in the OT. It is plainly obvious from any look at scripture that the reference is toward people and not buildings.
If anything more gets said about prior arguments in this thread, including but not limited too the snake in the grass or whited sepulchres comments, I will lock this thread too. This isn't a place for hashing out personal differences.
Bishop1,
Jesus addresses current sins as well as prior ones! The response was not a personal attack - but a response and proof against a personal attack on a fellow brother.
I made it clear in the other thread in which the comments were made that any further discussion of this matter should be taken to pm or email. This board isn't a place to air personal grievances, which I considered most of the comments listed to be.
And when responding to future administrative actions, per board rules, pm rather than post.
http://godplace.com/forum/index.php?topic=25131.0 (http://godplace.com/forum/index.php?topic=25131.0)
Per the board rules, a link to which has already been posted here.
4) Please don't openly argue with or complain about the monitors. If you have a problem take it to e-mail!
7) The decision of the monitors to delete any thread or post is NOT subject to debate or discussion.
Also, from a notice Scott posted September 16th in the General Discussion area of the forum:
The above named persons are the staff of Godplace.com/forum.
If you start a thread, you do not moderate that thread, you don't own it and you do not call the shots in that thread. If you try to do so, you are in violation of one of the basic rules of any discussion forum. '' do not pretend to be a moderator / monitor''.
If there is a problem with a poster, notify a mod or admin, please do not attempt to moderate. If we need additional help, we will select that appropriate person.
This is a notice to all members. As a representative of Christ, it behooves all of us to act in a Christian manner, and when posting on any discussion forum, to follow the rules of that forum. Even if you feel you are in the right, that doesn't make any decision to violate the rules of the board righteous.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 17, 2008, 11:06:03 PM
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:38:02 PM
Let me say this one more time:
Please explain to me how you can derive any meaning from Jesus words in Mark 10:30 other than what the PLAIN TEXT reads?
Im waiting...
I thought I did. Why don't you explain how it means what you're saying.
Actually, if you back up to the beginning of their conversation in verse 17, we see the rich ruler who had great possessions. He chose not to forsake those possessions for the sake of the kingdom. The disciples were astonished and wanted to know who could be saved. Then comes the primary question: what about us?
:pound: MY POINT EXACTLY! To which Jesus replied:
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time ----> , houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come ----> eternal life.
That leads to my earlier reply. The point still remains that gaining possessions is not the focal point of following Christ. He will provide all that we need w/o our seeking them. He will determine the abundance - and/or lack thereof - among His people. The prosperity gospel totally ignores that.
Titushome:
In an effort to save space, I will briefly reference your point, and then give my responses (others reading this post can scroll-up to see your point in its complete context, etc.). I will break up my responses into "smaller chunks" as to allow for easier reading and manageability. This heading will only occur on this first response...
1. Pastor as "sovereign" head:
Response:
While there may be some who overstep their bounds as "overseer" of the "flock", lets take a look at what both Paul and Peter had to say about "oversight" in the "Body Of Christ."
First Paul, in Acts 20:17,28-30
17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Ok, so in verse 17, we establish who Paul was talking to - the "elders" of the church of Ephesus. Verse 28 reveals the authority they were given - that of "overseer. What does overseer mean? According to the American Heritage Dictionary, it means "One who keeps watch over and directs the work of others, especially laborers." They were tasked with "feeding" the "church of God." Was this physical food? No, it was sound doctrine that they were to "feed" the church. This is borne out by verses 29-30, where Paul warns of perverse men who would come into the church and "draw away disciples after them." It's no different today. The "overseers" of the Church are tasked with feeding the flock (preaching/teaching the word) and protect them from false teachings (doctrines).
Now, consider what Peter had to say in 1 Peter 5:1-5
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Like Paul, Peter addressed the Elders. Interestingly, he expressed the same concern as Paul - "feed the flock." He instructed them to "take oversight" of the "flock of God," and gave guidelines as to how they should go about it in verse 2. He admonished them to lead by example in verse 3. Then we read what he had to say in verse 5 - something that is contrary to the beliefs of some, who love to embrace the "counterculture" - he said that they should "submit" themselves unto the elder.
The common thread here is that both of these men acknowledged that the "elders" were there to provide oversight and feed the flock. What is oversight, if not supervision or direction?
Consider what God said through his prophet Jeremiah in Jeremiah 3:14-15
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding
Now, I realize this is an OT reference, however it reveals a principle that is consistent with the writings of both Paul and Peter. God promised to give his children pastors "according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding" The role of the modern-day pastor has not changed. It is to provide oversight in the local assembly, and feed them with GODLY knowledge and understanding - which can also be referred to as SOUND DOCTRINE.
While I have certainly read your comments questioning the pastor's authority in regard to vision-casting (modern day groupspeak referring to planning for the growth of the church), baptizing, their "special relationship with God", etc. - these are individual issues that really have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. I will briefly comment that some pastors establish "rules" for their local assembly, which is certainly within the bounds of their pastoral authority in a corporate setting.
Again, it is borne out by scripture that Jesus Christ does in fact endorse human pastoral "oversight" in the local church body. This does not preclude a pastor from conducting himself according to scripture, but it does give blessing to the modern day NT church model. If you must be technical about it, it could be said that the individual pastors in a given city are the "elders" of the church in that city (which also touches on item # 3 below...).
2. Pastor does not have a special relationship with God:
Response:
My point in referencing Ephesians 4:11-14 was to illustrate a principle that is evident in scripture. Namely that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers serve a purpose - as Paul put it - "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." To achieve ANY of the items listed in verse 12, requires wisdom and direction - if not the outright hand of God. The Church is not a democracy; rather it is a sovereign Theocracy wherein God uses the five-fold ministry to "edify" the Body of Christ. That is not to say that edification should not emanate from all in the Body of Christ, but it is to say that there are special instances wherein God uses Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers to induce growth, oversee and feed his church. Does this elevate the "pastor" or any of the other "ministries" to a superhuman level? No, but it does indicate that at times God "anoints" particular members of the Body of Christ to serve in any one, or any combination of these ministries. It just so happens that in the modern day NT church, pastors are appointed to oversee the local flock, and at any time, he/she may be also endowed with the other four "ministries." Does this demean the other members of the "Body of Christ" who have not been "anointed" or "called" to the distinctive service of these five mentioned ministries? No, rather, it gives us all hope that we may aspire to be set apart ourselves into one of these "holy" distinctions. As to the question of equality in the "church", we are certainly all "equal" in that we are saved by Jesus Christ, but that does not preclude the need we all have for "oversight" and "feeding."
3. Church being identified with its pastor:
Response:
Your views on this matter are influenced by your incorrect view as to oversight of the local assembly. Again, I will state, although in more detail, that churches in our modern world must comply with laws, customs and standards in order to exist. For example, if you start a business, you must post a sign declaring the nature of your business. Churches are no different. Since Jesus Christ did not establish a signage program for the church, nor did he admonish his disciples as to what name the church should have before he ascended, we are left with a plethora of choices as to how our local church assembly should be identified for easy reference. Admittedly, some of the more modern church names are much catchier than "First Pentecostal Church," it really has ZERO bearing on anything other than as a means to alert passerby of what "brand" of church it is. The fact that the Pastor's name is on the sign (or not) is again only relevant as a point of reference for those who may wonder who the pastor is. The use of signage has been around since the advent of written language, so if you have a problem with it, take it up somewhere else. Paul referenced churches by City, and referred to the "elders" of the individual assemblies in that city (see item # 1 above), we simply refer to each "facility" often by the given name on the sign, or the Pastor's name in a particular city or state. Again, this is a mere technicality, and as such, I want to emphasize my next statement so it is loud and clear:
INTRINSIC TO ANY "TRUE" CHRISTIAN BELIEF SYSTEM, BODY OF BELIEVERS, ETC. IS THE FOUNDATIONAL UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, NOT THE CHURCH OF "insert local pastor's name." TO IMPLY OTHERWISE IS HYPERBOLE.
4. Questioning whether decorum in the "church" is in fact "noble":
Response:
I do have a reference to back up the idea of "decorum" in the church:
1 Cor. 14: 33 "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. "
Here's another...
1 Cor. 14:40 "Let all things be done decently and in order."
While this was speaking to the issue of multiple tongues and interpretations during a gathering, it is a "principle" that can be applied here. Furthermore, I believe this to be a tradition to which most normal Christians are accustomed (not just me). How is the expectation that the church service not be disrupted by unruly behavior in any way not noble? To be clear, I use the term unruly to describe actions that are not consistent with the expectations of the assembled group. As an example, in a Pentecostal Church, it would not be considered unruly for someone to break out in tongues, or dance in the aisles during the middle of service, as this would be considered a "move of God" (subject to the guidelines of 1 Cor. 14:1-40, or course). Since you are the father of a young child I will patronize you and say that if a young child cries, or makes noise, there is certainly a "window" of acceptable behavior before it would be thought prudent that a parent take the child to the nursery. What is not acceptable is the continued disruption of a church service by those whose intention is to disrupt the activities of the others in attendance.
5. Questioning whether it is wrong to chasten the unruly when church service is not in progress:
Response:
This really falls under another issue, which is parental authority and obedience. If a parent so chooses to "elevate" the status of the "church building" in the eyes of their children in an effort to induce respect for the "church facility," then sobeit. Certainly many refer to the "church building" as the "House of God," but unlike what you are trying to imply, they are not equating it to the "Holy of Holies" in the Tabernacle. Rather, it is in fact a place of communal worship that has been dedicated to service unto God. As such, to teach their children respect for such matters is in fact noble, and should be encouraged - if for no other reason than to limit the number of disrespectful, unruly and disobedient children in our modern world. That having been said, a mature Christian understands that their body is the Temple of God, and since God is omnipresent, we can worship him anytime or any place. It is nice to have a communal place of worship as well...
6. "Additional" presence of God...:Response:
I really chose my words poorly in that response. Certainly we should be aware that God is omnipresent, but scripture does illustrate many instances where there was a unique and special visitation of God's presence. Consider the annual "Holy of Holies" visitation in the Tabernacle. Consider the day of Pentecost when cloven tongues like as of fire sat upon all of them. Consider our personal prayer lives where we begin to worship God and in time become attuned to and aware of his presence. A communal church service is no different. We all come in from our daily grid - whatever it may be - and must become attuned to God's presence. We do as the Psalms say and enter into His courts with thanksgiving and praise - usually opening with prayer, a few songs, etc. This is supposed to get the corporate body's mind off of their surroundings and onto God. All too often, however "worshippers" are more interested in their girlfriend across the church, their wife's purse, or whatever other distraction can be concocted to distract from actually focusing on God in worship and praise. Some do not believe in any public worship, others seem to only worship in public. A balance must be struck wherein a Christian lives their daily life as unto God, spends time in meditation on the word and private praise and worship, as well as entering into communal worship and praise. This communal worship and praise is for the purpose of the edification of the body as a whole. It also serves as a tool to draw in unbelievers, who sense the move and presence of God but may not be aware of what it is.
7. Questioning whether the church building is the "House Of God":Response:
We absolutely understand that our bodies are the "Temple of God." That having been said, there is nothing wrong - scripturally, or otherwise - with dedicating a facility to be used for conducting communal church services with "believers" of like faith.
If you consider the account of "Jacob's Ladder" in Genesis 28, he established a precept. He had a vision, and when he had awakened he said the following:
16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
17 And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
You will notice that in the phrase "house of God" is not capitalized. He was not stating that "this is none other than the Tabernacle of God," rather, he was acknowledging that God had dwelt there with him during his vision. The reference to a "house" was as a dwelling place - albeit a temporary one. Certainly, you could visit that spot today and there would not be a ladder there leading to heaven. But, for Jacob, that spot was sacred - sacred because he had been touched by God there. Today, there are many people who have found God in their local church building, and for them, it will always be the "house of God." If they ultimately come to an understanding of truth, they will realize that within them is the "House of God."
8. Church Attendance...:Response:
** I have to be careful here to annunciate very clearly that these are my words and interpretations of events, and in no way am I attempting to usurp ANY authority or misrepresent myself as anything else but a layman in the church I attend. Furthermore, this is being written without the approval or knowledge of the pastor whose authority we both worship under. **
Since you used a personal reference, I will go ahead and elaborate on that. When you first began attending the church you now attend, you made an agreement with the pastor that since your Father-in-Law conducts services at a local rest home, you would be meeting with them once a month. Like any agreement, in this instance, abscence from church in conformance with the agreement is not considered unfaithfulness. Nor is it considered unfaithfulness to miss due to illness, family vacation, etc. (at least in the church we both attend). If, on the other hand, your pastor became aware that you were missing church on a regular basis to attend services in churches whose doctrines were not consistent with those of your home church, he would most likely be compelled to counsel you in regard to avoiding false doctrine.
A fundamental key to your written response is your implied belief that you really answer to no one but Jesus Christ himself. As such, you imply in your writings that church attendance is really not necessary, and is at the whim of the "Christian." Please tell me how you reconcile the inverse of what Paul wrote in Acts chapter 20, and what Peter wrote in 1 Pet. 5:1-5? He did not write these things to the elders so they could "oversee" and "feed" empty chairs. It was understood that as part of the "body of christ" you would align yourself with an "elder" and as Peter said in 1 Peter 5:5:
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
It is a proud person who feels they are so wise that they no longer need attend church, or can attend once or twice a year just to make an appearance. The truly humble understand that at every possible occasion we should seek to join ourselves together with the Body of Christ so that we can be "fed" and submit ourselves to "oversight," even as Paul and Peter wrote as the surrogates of Jesus Christ himself.
Regarding the "Body of Christ" and who the "members" are, scripture is quite clear concerning this matter. We need not create an offensive list of excluded denominations, fellowships, etc. Rather, we simply apply this standard: "are they continuing in the Apostles Doctrine" as preached and taught in the new testament? Have they obeyed the scriptures as Jesus revealed them to Nicodemus, or as Peter commanded on the Day of Pentecost, and was later borne out with the conversion of Cornelius?
Consider this wonderful conversion of Cornelius and his household:
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Now, consider Peter's version when he recounted it to those in Jerusalem who were questioning his affiliation with a "Gentile:"
Acts 11:12-16
12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
The Angel of the Lord prefaced and endorsed Peter's doctrine by saying "Who shall tell the words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."
Subsequent to Peter preaching Christ to Cornelieus household, verses 44-48 reveal what happened:
1. The Gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on all of them that heard the word.
2. They spake with tongues and magnified God.
3. They were baptized in the name of the Lord.
If this constituted "salvation" in the early church, why would it be any different today? Those who do not believe in the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, and being baptized in the name of the Lord, are in fact NOT the body of Christ.
Consider what Jesus himself had to say to Nicodemus in John 3:1-7:
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Two things to consider:
a) Until a person is "born again," they cannot "see" the Kingdom of God. This speaks of the "enlightening" that occurs when we are born again - an enlightening that allows us to comprehend the Word of God, and to practice spiritual discernment.
b) Unless a person is "born again" they cannot "enter into" the Kingdom of God. Confession of one's faith in Christ alone does not procure "entrance" into the Kingdom of God. One MUST be "born again." All too many are "stopped" in the process at repentance. They are taught that confessing Christ as your personal saviour constitutes salvation, while this "methodology" never occurs in scripture.
So, the secular definition of "Christianity" consists of those who profess to follow Christ. The "Biblical" definition of "Christianity" are those who demonstrate their belief in Christ by being Born Again, as evidenced by repentance from sin, Baptisim in the name of the Lord, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. When we are filled with the Holy Ghost, which is Christ within us, we truly become "his body" on earth. To infer otherwise is false doctrine, and reveals either a misunderstanding or a manipulation of scripture. Admittedly, there are many who profess to love "Christ", but have not continued past the act of repentance.
I may be doing a poor job of it, but, I am merely reciting scripture verbatim where the question of "salvation" was posed, then answered by the Jesus Christ himself, or by the action of the Holy Ghost (which is also Jesus Christ...).
Shalom.
Quote from: titushome on September 17, 2008, 09:21:19 PM
Quote from: doogie on September 17, 2008, 05:03:01 PM
1. They typically set up one man, the pastor, as the sovereign head of the local assembly, and he is to be obeyed more or less without question, excepted only when he is in obvious violation of the Scriptures.
Response: The local "assembly" is a corporate body. Of course the pastor is the "leader" of the group. You are an intelligent person, how could you possibly believe that Pastor's are not ordained in scripture? Read 1 Timothy 3 where requirements for a "Bishop" are set forth, then deacons as well. What could Paul have possibly intended if not leadership? That having been said, there are boundaries, and if a "pastor" oversteps them, it can lead to problems.
Allow me to clarify what I meant: of course there are human leaders within the body of Christ. But note my exact words, by which I described a typical pastor "as the sovereign head of the local assembly, [who] is to be obeyed more or less without question." There's a big difference between a leader and a sovereign head.
A leader provides guidance, and leads by making himself an example. His guidance is heeded because his spiritual maturity and wisdom are recognized by all.
A sovereign head, however - which is, to some degree, how most pastors these days function - issues directives to be obeyed, and obedience is due him because of his position, regardless of his personal maturity, wisdom, or alignment with the mind of God in a given situation.
Don't believe that most pastors function as sovereign heads? Consider the following: I've been a Christian for most of my life, over twenty-five years, and in that time I've been part of at least ten different churches, and visited countless more. In that time I've heard preached and taught ad nauseam that to disobey one's pastor is to disobey God; that the pastor alone is tasked with "casting a vision" for the church, which all others are to give their full support; that, as I wrote before, the pastor has a special relationship with God that the rest of the saints can't have; that the pastor alone can baptize; that the pastor is primarily charged with the instruction of the saints; that the pastor is empowered to makes binding rules upon the saints in "his" church.
In all these things and more, the pastor effectively replaces Christ as the functional head of the church.
Contrast this with, for example, your pastor and mine: he does not make demands of obedience, but rather provides counsel. He makes a strong effort to include all who want to be included in planning and executing church events. While he shoulders the bulk of the preaching and teaching, he also utilizes the teaching gifts of numerous others within the church, and does so for a substantial amount of the teaching that goes forth. I've never heard him claim, explicitly or implicitly, to have a special relationship with God that others cannot; to the contrary, he regularly emphasizes his equality with the rest of the saints. And he has never, as far as I've heard, laid down rules to be followed.
But our pastor, in my experience, is an exception to the rule. Most other pastors I've encountered over the years, whether I heard them speak only once or whether I assembled with them for years, have been guilty, in small degree or large, of at least some of the things I've described above. Even worse, perhaps, is that many non-pastoring preachers and teachers I've heard over the years have with their words reinforced these erroneous ideas.
On the other hand, most pastors I've known have been spiritually mature, wise, and Christlike in most ways. Yet this does not change their guilt regarding their incorrect ways of relating to the rest of the Body. I actually had one former pastor, a man I love dearly and greatly admire, describe himself to me as "God's representative" - I almost leapt out of my seat when he said that! Yet I've found it to be a typical attitude among church leaders today.
continued...
I thought we were all Ambassadors - Dosen't that make us all representatives of Jesus? Isn't that what an Ambassador is - a representative?
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 16, 2008, 07:13:46 AM
Quote from: doogie on September 15, 2008, 10:33:44 PM
Response to Titushome:
Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.
Wow, doogie. Tell us how you really feel. :-?
Response: I will ferociously and vociferiously defend what I believe to be truth. There are those who may read this board who could be led astray by some who post their false interpretations of scripture. While I may inadequately defend scripture, I will at least make an attempt to do so. Consider that OOJ postulated that doctrines I hold sacred are in fact lies. A pacifistic response is not acceptable. I believe him to be of a contentious spirit and find his writings to be false doctrine.
Added later:
I also would say this: If OOJ's approach were one of "I have studied the scripture, and as such this is what I believe," I might respond differently. However, when he calls basic doctrinal beliefs "lies," it is disturbing. As such, I feel the need to be very very clear that I do not agree with his posting. I might add that I do not use the word "delusional" lightly - rather I see it as a sad end to those who choose to reinterpret Truth to fit their belief system.
All Right. Thanks for making it plain. I appreciate that.
I am contentious, but not in the way you and others here believe. Apparently, you find anyone who challenges the religious conclusions of your doctrine to be in error. Apparently, you and other such ones are incapable of being deceived. It has to be someone else. Isn't that what Adam and Eve said when God revealed their error? Oh I'm contentious alright. I'm doing the best I can to reason & persuade everyone who will listen. I want religion to be destroyed out of the Body of Christ so we can all be like Him. That's what I want.
Why is something false only when "I" don't agree with it? Wherever I am today in my relationship with God - the deepest deeps and highest highs and truth understood - each step required exposing something false. Not one of us here today got here knowing everything. We all had to re-evaluate what we thought was true. I have yet to see a stopping place for that event. Not this side of Heaven anyway.
You find it false doctrine, even though you have yet to seriously study things out. At least as far as I can tell. Some things take weeks, months, and even years to recognize. You can't do it with one quick scan. Disagree all you want. Just do it after serious consideration and searching of scripture.
I might add that I do not use the word "delusional" lightly - rather I see it as a sad end to those who choose to reinterpret Truth to fit their belief systemWhat do you think a mixture of leavened bread and unleavened bread is? It is up to us to allow the HG to kill off the leaven and totally remove it. You can't do that only hearing a particular denominational doctrine or hearing particular denominational interpretations or fellowshipping with particular denominational saints. The Body is so much bigger than that and will feed itself. What your denominational saint cannot tell you, another saint can. Eventually there will be no denominations, just one united Body of Christ with Jesus as the Head. Together we can clearly see the real wolves among the sheep.
Doogie, your response has been one of the flesh and not the Spirit. It was the same response seen over and over in scripture by the Sanhedrin and enemies of God. I don't think that was the intent. I've disagreed with many here myself. That happens in discussion. Don't be so quick to condemn what you don't understand. I really don't care what you call me. I figure I'm in good company. :teeth:
[/quote]
WOW!! It is amazing to me that you can say that doggie responded in the flesh - and not mention that you have done the same ( and first I might add) when you used the word "delusional" to describe the writings written in response to you're post. I looked back and read the whole conversation and did not find any place where you were called anything until you choose to call something that you could not answer scripturally, delusional!
It would seem to me, that inconsisties to scripture are a normal teaching around the world, but not by the church, but a select few who think that Jesus somehow made them professors over the rest of an ignorant church. While teaching the unlearned is a good thing, any teaching must first align itself with the gospel of Christ, or be considered by it's true value, a false doctrine!
Jesus, in coming back for his church, is coming back for a church that have made themselves ready, not for a church that he has to "beat down" so to speak, in order to get them ready for a rapture. We are taught, to be ready at all times, for we know not the hour Jesus will return, and in no wise are we taught that a good "a beat down" will get us in line before that great day.
There are many, who "like Satan himself" teach half truth and decieve many, one's who do not agree with scripture because it does not align itself with their personal belief on "how things should be done". Denying the fact that there is an Holy Order that must be followed by all in order to enter in to Heaven. And to be Christlike (as some have in error believed) is to accept all teachings and keep our opinions to ourselves, when we see a wrong, to avoid hurting someone's feelings.
To be Christlike, not only attends to the meekness and love to which we are to display, but also to the firmness and sometimes "unliked" stances we take in defense of this precious Gospel, against any and all who would distort or pollute this precious truth. Jesus tells us, that the world will hate us because it hated him, because like him, we will convince this world of their error and shed his light on their sins.
Quote from: doogie on September 21, 2008, 05:19:10 AM
1. Pastor as "sovereign" head:
Regarding most of what you posted, I thoroughly agree; I think perhaps we agree more than we know, but are approaching the issue from different perspectives.
I do have some disagreement, though, with just a couple of your final statements in this post.
Quote from: doogie on September 21, 2008, 05:19:10 AM
While I have certainly read your comments questioning the pastor's authority in regard to vision-casting (modern day groupspeak referring to planning for the growth of the church), baptizing, their "special relationship with God", etc. - these are individual issues that really have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.
Here, perhaps, is where our viewpoints differ most. While you believe these abuses of authority are "individual issues," non-related events that must be "looked at" and dealt with "on a case-by-case basis," I believe they are deeply related symptoms of the same root problem: namely, that the role of the pastor in the Church today in many ways goes far beyond what the Lord intends, or has laid out in the Scriptures.
Quote from: doogie on September 21, 2008, 05:19:10 AM
I will briefly comment that some pastors establish "rules" for their local assembly, which is certainly within the bounds of their pastoral authority in a corporate setting.
This is one strong example of what I just described above. On what Scripture is this teaching founded? That is, the teaching that pastors have been given authority by God to "establish rules" for their local assembly. Preach, teach, offer guidance, etc.? Yes. Make rules for other believers? No. It's wholly un-Scriptural.
Quote from: doogie on September 21, 2008, 05:23:09 AM
4. Questioning whether decorum in the "church" is in fact "noble":
Response:
I do have a reference to back up the idea of "decorum" in the church:
1 Cor. 14: 33 "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. "
Here's another...
1 Cor. 14:40 "Let all things be done decently and in order."
Dictionary.com defines "decorum" thus:
1. dignified propriety of behavior, speech, dress, etc.
2. the quality or state of being decorous; orderliness; regularity.
3. Usually, decorums. an observance or requirement of polite society.
Would you care to define, according to the Scriptures, what is "dignified propriety of behavior, speech, dress, etc." in a church meeting? The only real directive we are given is to submit to the order imposed by the Spirit; i.e., to allow the Lord Himself to direct the order of the meeting - as in the Scriptures you quoted above. I have a feeling that if we were to really do this, a great deal of our "dignified propriety" would go right out the window. I don't believe for a minute that the order of the Spirit has anything to do with the human-invented "dignified propriety" we typically observe in our church meetings. To the contrary, I think many times our "dignified propriety" actually stifles/hinders what the Spirit would do among and through us, were He permitted.
Quote from: doogie on September 21, 2008, 05:23:09 AM
While this was speaking to the issue of multiple tongues and interpretations during a gathering, it is a "principle" that can be applied here. Furthermore, I believe this to be a tradition to which most normal Christians are accustomed (not just me). How is the expectation that the church service not be disrupted by unruly behavior in any way not noble? To be clear, I use the term unruly to describe actions that are not consistent with the expectations of the assembled group. As an example, in a Pentecostal Church, it would not be considered unruly for someone to break out in tongues, or dance in the aisles during the middle of service, as this would be considered a "move of God" (subject to the guidelines of 1 Cor. 14:1-40, or course). Since you are the father of a young child I will patronize you and say that if a young child cries, or makes noise, there is certainly a "window" of acceptable behavior before it would be thought prudent that a parent take the child to the nursery. What is not acceptable is the continued disruption of a church service by those whose intention is to disrupt the activities of the others in attendance.
I mostly agree, although according to your own definition above, order in the meeting is a highly subjective and changeable thing; i.e., what is acceptable to one assembly, such as speaking in tongues and running the aisles, may not be acceptable to another. But what about what is acceptable to the Spirit? Is that not what really matters?
Quote from: doogie on September 21, 2008, 05:23:09 AM
If a parent so chooses to "elevate" the status of the "church building" in the eyes of their children in an effort to induce respect for the "church facility," then sobeit.
Absolutely not. This is wrong! If parents choose to "elevate the status of the church building in the eyes of their children," if parents teach their children to "respect the church facility," they are doing their children a tremendous disservice.
It's only a building!!! Our respect is to be reserved for God, His people, and (in a different way) the people who are not yet His.
Quote from: doogie on September 21, 2008, 05:25:01 AM
A fundamental key to your written response is your implied belief that you really answer to no one but Jesus Christ himself. As such, you imply in your writings that church attendance is really not necessary, and is at the whim of the "Christian." Please tell me how you reconcile the inverse of what Paul wrote in Acts chapter 20, and what Peter wrote in 1 Pet. 5:1-5? He did not write these things to the elders so they could "oversee" and "feed" empty chairs. It was understood that as part of the "body of christ" you would align yourself with an "elder" and as Peter said in 1 Peter 5:5:
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
Ultimately, we do in fact answer to no one but Jesus Christ Himself. In the meantime, of course, as we mature in Christ, we must answer to another - in particular, our elders, who have been charged with looking out for us and teaching us in the Lord.
If I have implied with anything I wrote that meeting with other Christians is not really necessary, then I apologize. That is not what I believe at all, and not what I intended to communicate. It is absolutely necessary to our continuing maturity in Christ that we regularly assemble with His people, our spiritual family, that we exhort one another and learn from one another - especially the younger learning from the elder, as the Bible describes.
With regard to 1 Peter 5:5, however, I would say not so much that we are to "align [ourselves] with an elder" as much as I would say that we are to submit - the word Peter used - ourselves to our elders, that we might learn to align ourselves with Christ.
Quote from: doogie on September 21, 2008, 08:48:38 PM
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Two things to consider:
a) Until a person is "born again," they cannot "see" the Kingdom of God. This speaks of the "enlightening" that occurs when we are born again - an enlightening that allows us to comprehend the Word of God, and to practice spiritual discernment.
b) Unless a person is "born again" they cannot "enter into" the Kingdom of God. Confession of one's faith in Christ alone does not procure "entrance" into the Kingdom of God. One MUST be "born again." All too many are "stopped" in the process at repentance. They are taught that confessing Christ as your personal saviour constitutes salvation, while this "methodology" never occurs in scripture.
So, the secular definition of "Christianity" consists of those who profess to follow Christ. The "Biblical" definition of "Christianity" are those who demonstrate their belief in Christ by being Born Again, as evidenced by repentance from sin, Baptisim in the name of the Lord, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. When we are filled with the Holy Ghost, which is Christ within us, we truly become "his body" on earth. To infer otherwise is false doctrine, and reveals either a misunderstanding or a manipulation of scripture. Admittedly, there are many who profess to love "Christ", but have not continued past the act of repentance.
Your whole post was great, but this commentary on John 3:1-7 was especially beautiful. Wonderful!
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 22, 2008, 05:06:43 PM
Quote from: titushome
I actually had one former pastor, a man I love dearly and greatly admire, describe himself to me as "God's representative" - I almost leapt out of my seat when he said that! Yet I've found it to be a typical attitude among church leaders today.
I thought we were all Ambassadors - Dosen't that make us all representatives of Jesus? Isn't that what an Ambassador is - a representative?
You're absolutely correct. The reason I had a problem this man's words was because he implied that he was a representative of God in a way that other believers are not. I'm not at liberty to describe the whole conversation in which these words were spoken, but trust me: that's exactly what he meant.
Wonderful expressions, guys. I really wish I were that eloquent.
I'd like to interject something here that had totally fled my mind in prior conversations. Perhaps it will make it a tad easier to understand the differences of position, regarding "pastor". And I will state again, that I do not ever propose the Body refrain from assembly. We are in fact, assembling together here, on the net, even as we speak. For while it would seem to some that this is nothing more than a "gripe-fest" or worse, in reality the Body meets to share itself. The Body {church} in Oregon has something to assemble {input} for the church in Texas, Wisconsin, Australia, England, Arkansas, Mexico, etc. We leave with something to contemplate about Christ. Whether we agree or not; whether we disputed the finer points or joyfully received it, doesn't make any difference. We met under the banner of Christ Jesus' love for each one of us.
The moderators are there to cool down the saints when passions threaten to get out of hand, but they do not reign. They do not tell anyone what to believe or not to believe; they do not limit topics to a pre-approved list; they do not ban perceptions not personally held; and they seldom interfere with the flow of conversation. They do settle disputes; they do discern what is inappropriate behavior or topic; they do monitor the ebb and flow of conversation within the entire forum. Theirs is the function of an elder.
Actually, the "internet" church is a very good example of how the "physical" church should function.
Well, that wasn't what I intended to say, but I'll take it. Let me now go back to my original thought.
I'd like to interject something here that had totally fled my mind in prior conversations. Perhaps it will make it a tad easier to understand the differences of position, regarding "pastor". Again, I do not imply or desire to do away with these gifts, but rather see them restored to proper function. That way, the entire Body will prosper as the Lord intends.
What we are dealing with is - to put it simply - the transition from King Saul to King David. Put another way - from the Church to the Kingdom.
Historically, Saul was crowned King at the beginning of wheat harvest. This is now known as the Day of Pentecost. Saul was a man chosen and anointed by God to rule His people. Saul was simultaneously carnal and godly. This is a type of the Church after Pentecost - carnal flesh filled with God's Spirit; sometimes acting carnally and sometimes godly. The Feast of Pentecost required wheat bread to be both leavened and unleavened. Thus, the church in Saul's kingdom operates in both truth and error; more so error as the leaven rises to completeness.
I Samuel 13 tells us that after Saul had reigned two years, his kingdom was taken from him for disobedience: he did not wait for the appointed time. For this, God anointed a new king, a man after His own heart: David.
Now we must choose our king - will we follow Saul or David? In order to follow David, we must leave the kingdom of Saul. We must reject his authority over us and submit to that of David. Saul was rejected after 2 days. Typically, this is the 2000 yrs of the church-age. Is it any wonder now that the same thing is happening in the Church? Saul is rejected and David is King. We seek to follow Christ and His Word; not the mixed leaven of Saul. David's men assembled out in caves in the wilderness, away from the structured known. It will only be for a short time, until the King is publicly crowned.
Interesting to note that David's enemy was Saul. The enemy of the "unchurched" is the recognized church. So to anyone who may be considering leaving Saul's kingdom - be prepared for the worst, especially from the church. It's not an easy thing to overcome. But we must do that. We must "defect" to the rule of David and let Saul die alone, surrounded by Philistines. {Which, btw is another story altogether.} Does this mean we can't assemble in cathedrals and such? No, it doesn't. It simply means answering to the direct voice of Christ, via the HG. No man - Saul - rules any longer. That kingdom - method of rulership - is going to die. The Beast is going to destroy it completely and utterly before David comes to the throne. Some of us are simply recognizing that and trying to prepare.
Another interesting note is the time David waited to be King. Having been anointed in the beginning of Saul's third year, he waited 15 years before assuming the throne. Taking into account that 1000 yrs with the Lord is as 1 day, and we have entered the 3rd day since Pentecost - we just might have only 15yrs before Jesus is crowned King.
I hope that may shed another light upon the conflict we currently face.
QuoteIf a parent so chooses to "elevate" the status of the "church building" in the eyes of their children in an effort to induce respect for the "church facility," then sobeit.
QuoteAbsolutely not. This is wrong! If parents choose to "elevate the status of the church building in the eyes of their children," if parents teach their children to "respect the church facility," they are doing their children a tremendous disservice. It's only a building!!! Our respect is to be reserved for God, His people, and (in a different way) the people who are not yet His.
I don't think anyone is advocating adoration of the edifice.
However, I think it's okay to instruct children, in a Godly way, how to behave
while in a public place. A building used for public, ecclesiastical meetings should be treated with respect as much as any other building.
Children do need to be trained in the way that they should go. One aspect of that is helping them to learn self-controlled, proper behavior toward property. Churches that rent or borrow facilities, for example, ought to have an attitude of "make it look better than when we arrived" during the take down/clean-up phase of the service, i.e. at the end. That's a Godly, i.e. respectful attitude.
Even if you want to have house churches, which is perfectly fine, children attending such meetings ought to be curtailed from their usually normal, rambunctious, and sometimes wild and immature behavior. There's nothing wrong in this. Yes, kids will be kids. But adults don't have to let children run rampant as mini-tyrants who damage (church) property simple because "it's only a building".
If you were to have a meeting in your home (i.e. have a house church), would you let children run and play and skip and jump and anything else the children might conjure up or desire (drawing on walls, play with water, throw balls around, going through your private items, etc.) unsupervised during the worship/edification?
If not, why allow it at a building that is borrowed/rented/owned by a church (the people) for the same purpose?
The standard should at the very least, be the same, and in most cases, higher for the borrowed/rented/owned property, realizing that some people who attend don't have the immediate patience or understanding for children who behave in an out of control manner.
Imagine the sinner on the verge of repentance suddenly distracted from God's move on his or her heart because the children of the church (the people) were allowed to
de-value the "church facility" in some way, like say jumping up and down on the pews, running around screaming, bouncing a ball against the walls, or whatever.
Such actions as these would actually
disrespect God, His people, and the people who are not yet His, because it interrupted God's move, hindered His people's ministry, and distracted those that are not yet His from changing their mind and yielding their life to Christ.
All because parents didn't elevate the "building" in the eyes of their children. Essentially, the children treated the building, and therefore the people in it, disrespectfully.
I surmise that this is what doogie is after.
If so, I don't think anything he is advocating is wrong or contrary to God's will, even if a perfect prooftext can't be found in Scripture.
I think when we are talking about the house God respect thereof, we tend to forget Jesus himself displayed a very angry attitude because the house of God (the temple) was being disrespected. He turned over the money changers tables, whipped them with a scourage of cords and told them - not to make his father's house (temple) a house of merchandise!
Well, it's almost October. The dominoes are almost in place, waiting to be pushed over. The President has pretty much publicly admitted the intent of nationalizing the banking industry. That's what this "bail-out" is really all about. Another big notch cementing fasicism upon America. In case some haven't realized it yet - America is broke! There is no money in the Treasury! This country lives on credit and the cards are almost maxxed out!
There are US troops returning from Iraq, prepared to "patrol" our streets in case of "civil unrest". This is directly forbidden in the Constitution, yet it is happening. October is also the beginning of the Govt fiscal year. Congress borrowed 600 billion to continue emergency running of the govt for 6 months. I would suggest pulling some cash out of your bank account. It might be a bit difficult to do so in the next few weeks. After IKE, I would also recommend keeping about 3-4 days of emergency supplies on hand. Just in case.
I believe we are about to possibly begin the great tribulation. Seven years of plenty have passed and it certainly looks like famine times are just about here. The Feast of Trumpets {Rosh-Hosanna} begins Sept 30-Oct 1, and it has scripturally and historically proven to be portentous. I've asked if America was ready for Judgement - I guess we will see.
My best advice is to go before our Father in repentance of anything we've failed Him at. Seek to strengthen relationship with Him and listen closely to what He says. The time ahead is going to be tempestuous and unlike anything we've been through before. Totally uncharted ground. The lifestyle to which we're accustomed is going to pretty much disappear. We' ll be forced to worship and serve Him in a different manner. No longer be "church as we know it". Each of us will have to be proven worthy on our own. Get prepared for persecution unheard of in this country. Get prepared for jail time and worse. But do not fear. The LORD will be with each of us. Also get prepared to do the miraculous. Get prepared for the great revival expected for centuries. We're entering the Super Bowl, and it's going to be glorious. But first we have to survive the training. :teeth:
Raven,
Thanks for your post - you're absolutely right. I suppose my reaction was a little too strong. I completely agree that children should be taught to respect buildings, including church buildings. I'm just strongly against the reverence of church buildings advocated by so many of my brothers and sisters.
Quote from: titushome on September 26, 2008, 04:26:19 AM
Raven,
Thanks for your post - you're absolutely right. I suppose my reaction was a little too strong. I completely agree that children should be taught to respect buildings, including church buildings. I'm just strongly against the reverence of church buildings advocated by so many of my brothers and sisters.
I know what you mean, Titus. I feel the same way.
I don't refer to a physical "temple" made
with hands as "God's House" or the like.
If I can, I usually just say "church building". I might say something like, "I'm going to church" and it sounds like a physical place, but I'm really talking about the people meeting together and going to that meeting, rather than a site on a map somewhere.
I came across this prophetic word a couple of weeks ago. I know we're all concerned about the plunging economy and America's myriad problems. It is – and has been - my belief that our troubles are first and foremost, the beginnings of judgment upon this nation. It will not get better, but worse and worse. However, those who truly are in the Body of Christ, and who truly depend upon the Lord Jesus for all provisions, have nothing to fear. We know that, but sometimes need to hear it afresh. We need reminding that we are Ambassadors of Christ. This world is not our home. JESUS IS COMING! MAKE YOURSELVES READY!
*****************************************************************************************************
U n l e a v e n e d B r e a d M i n i s t r i e s . o r g
Economic Depression a Trial
Jim Robey - 10/02/08
The Word of the LORD says, "Soon the American economy will collapse under the weight of national and personal sins. These things must be declares the LORD to try and purify my Bride and to recompense the abominations that have been committed in your country. I have stated in MY Word that the nations are a drop in the bucket to me, and I do with them as I please. Though many in this country have forgotten Me days without end, yet My judgments are redemptive in nature, and I will bring many people to Myself in their afflictions. Many have snubbed their noses at Me by thinking that America is too powerful to be brought to its knees. Yes, the goodness of the LORD brings men to repentance, but My afflictions that I send also bring men to repentance, as My servant David had stated.
"This Economic Depression will be lengthy and will try the souls of many. My true followers will be separated from those who only claim to call me by Name. But I provide for My people, as I have always. I still can provide a table in the wilderness, declares the LORD. Do not look to the great lack that is coming and is even here, but look to Me, as I have stated in My Word that I keep My people satisfied during famine. You have nothing to fear, but be full of faith and know that I will keep you and your families. It is I Who breaks the staff of bread in a nation that transgresses against Me. I have sent messenger after messenger, prophet after prophet to declare the sins of this nation, but to no avail. I do not afflict willingly, from the heart, the sons and daughters of men for their sins, but to redeem and restore a people to Myself. When a nation transgresses against Me, and I give them space to repent, and they trodden under foot My mercies, then it is righteous for me to stand up and act. Stay in MY Word. You are My disciples, if you continue in My Word.
"To those who neglect My Word and desire the corrupt things of this world shall indeed come a reaping. I have told you these things so that when your economy soon collapses that you will not lose heart, but that you will trust Me with all of your heart to take care of you. But do I find faith on the earth? Will you believe every Word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God? Whose report will you believe? Are you not a stranger and pilgrim traveling through this world, keeping yourselves unspotted from the world?
"Take courage, I am with you and dwelling in you. Be full of faith and trust and in the Day of Trouble I will rescue and deliver you.
"With Great Love, Your God and Father."
________________________________________
This "printer-friendly" document was printed from Unleavened Bread Ministries' website at www.unleavenedbreadministries.org. Original link for this document: http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=economicdep
Monday October 27, 2008
Changing Seasons
Today I woke up to the sight of snowflakes gently falling to the ground outside my window. It should have been a happy moment, but rather than feel any sense of joy, I just pulled the blanket closer to my chin and started thinking about the long winter ahead. I used to live in California, Southern California to be exact, and didn't ever have to worry about changing seasons. It was always sunny in California, and the worst it ever got, at least for the thirteen years I lived there was somewhere in the high fifties.
Having moved to Wisconsin after my wedding, I realized I had to keep track of the seasons a bit closer than I did while living on the West Coast. Yesterday, it was a bit breezy, but there were no outward signs that it would snow today, yet here the snow were falling to the ground this morning. Seasons change suddenly and without warning. What we took for granted today, (for me it was the ability to walk outside in a t-shirt without freezing), we realize the importance of, and feel the loss of tomorrow.
For a long time this nation didn't have to worry about changing seasons. We were the only superpower in the world, the big boy, with the big stick that all the other kids were scared of, we had a booming economy, an excellent housing market, and the only way someone didn't work in America was if they didn't want a job. Well, even though it's highly doubtful that I need to point it out to anyone, the seasons they are a-changing.
An empire can rise or fall, and economic system can fail and collapse irreparably so, as quickly as the seasons seem to change here in Wisconsin. If we have placed our trust in anything other than the heavenly Father, if we believe our security is in the color of our passport, our bank account, or our retirement portfolios, we will be shaken and uprooted, tossed asunder and trampled underfoot as readily as the rest of the world.
For over twenty years our ministry and others of like mind have been warning about the things that are beginning to take shape in this country. Some mocked, some laughed, some rejected, but some received and drew closer to God, growing in grace and faith and in their ability to trust God even for the smallest of things.
Yes, the warnings have ended. I believe the warnings ended some years ago, since a warning is basically a message informing of danger, far enough in advance wherein the danger can be avoided if the necessary steps are taken. We have gone past the point of no return, merrily gorging ourselves on the delicacies of prosperity, never once stopping to think that God Himself said the earth and everything in it shall pass away. Every time judgment was mentioned, we always assumed it was for a future generation, our children's children, or their children, but alas we see that all those messages all those warnings were for us, today.
I take no pleasure in saying that things will get significantly worse very soon, and that which has been foretold is being fulfilled. I realize I'm rambling, but for good reason. The hour is late!
If anyone was waiting to see the signs, if anyone was skeptical and wanted to see further proof before they committed themselves to God, before they took the call to repentance seriously, well perhaps the time has come to choose. Tomorrow is an uncertain time, and today may be all you have to surrender your heart to the heavenly Father.
With love in Christ,
Michael Boldea Jr.
www.mikeboldea.blogspot.com/
I heard a pastor the other day mention a passing reference to the following verses:
Therefore son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have commited a trespass against me. For when I had brought them inot the land, for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to them, then they saw every high hill, and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering: there also they made their sweet savour, and poured out there their drink offerings. Then I said unto them, What is the high place where-unto ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day. Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations? For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall i be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord God, I will not be enquired of by you. Ezekiel 20:27-31
Today is election day here in the U.S. I am not promoting either of the candidates at all. Both are simply acting out their chosen role in the current farce of "free elections". Neither of them have proven to be anything but an enemy of God and His Word. I cannot and will not choose the lesser of either evil.
Nonetheless, I find it very interesting to find the scriptural use - and only use - of the word Bamah to be in regard to idol worship. Idol worship in the high places (wrestle against principalities in high places) designed to deflect and steal the true worship of the Lord and deceive the people. The people are being led astray by their own foolish choices. America stands at the threshold of electing a leader whose name scripturally means "high place", specifically related to idols. A man whose Muslim identity hasn't been verified. Can this be another warning sign from our Lord? Is He giving us a picture of what to expect in the next 4 years?
Remember what the Lord said when this idolatrous people seeks Him in worship - I will not be worshipped by you. America is going down. No amount of "prayer" by her sinful "christians" will change this fact. We are entering into times unheard of, no matter who wins. I believe the Lord is graciously giving whoever has ears to hear and eyes to see, a chance to repent and come out of Babylon. Repent of the religion that holds us captive. Repent of the dependence upon what passes for church, and not our GOD. Repent of demanding our will and not thine.
Church, the time has come to REPENT, FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND! It is the last day. Time is running out. Everything in the world system is designed to combat Christ. Very soon, all the pieces will be in place and the slaughter can begin. Are you ready?
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 25, 2008, 01:34:03 AM
I think when we are talking about the house God respect thereof, we tend to forget Jesus himself displayed a very angry attitude because the house of God (the temple) was being disrespected. He turned over the money changers tables, whipped them with a scourage of cords and told them - not to make his father's house (temple) a house of merchandise!
Yet, the House of God is not a temple/building/sanctuary made with hands. It is us. The building so many meet in each Sunday & Wednesday remains nothing more than that - a building. There is absolutely nothing sacred about a "church". It is only the place where the CHURCH gathers. The same result can - and should - be accomplished in a Park, or a living room, or a car, or anywhere. Jesus said: where two or three are gathered together, there am I. Doesn't have to be our modern "church".
Yeah, Jesus got angry. But that was regarding the prior "temple". Notice he never got upset over a synagogue. And we should take a cue by running out all the merchandising ourselves. Where do we get off charging for a copy of a sermon? Or peddling car washes, bake-sales, books, DVD's, and sowing special seed offerings? We do far worse than those guys. I think Jesus needs to show up and give it another whack!
Our assembly places should be conducted with decorum. However, they are no more holy than a saints livingroom.
I received this e-mail the other day. We should pay heed.
***********************************************************
Pastor Joh.W.Matutis, (Berlin / Germany)
www.nnk-berlin.de <http://www.nnk-berlin.de> (english menu)
While praying this morning, God gave me a vision. He showed me a great, world-wide "mobilization"
I saw myself strolling along a beach. Suddenly, there sounded a loud boom, which became stronger and more massive. It was not the noise of the sea or of the wind. It was completely still outside. The sea water was as smooth as glass. The deep booming sound which was like the sound of the mountains about to cave in, a banging sound which I had up till now never heard in my whole life, came from the other side of the ocean, from far away. It became so strong and mighty, that the earth began to quake and shake. It sounded like the blasting of a deep bass trumpet. I had never heard this sort and depth of bass sound before now. The whole air vibrated. I holed myself up in the dunes of the embankment, face down, and waited to see what would come out of this natural spectacle.
When the booming refused to stop, and instead became stronger, I saw myself begin to pray in the vision, and to speak with my God. Then I heard a voice saying, "my child, fear not. That is my mobilization call, a signal, from the other world. I am calling my people out from all peoples. I myself am shaking the earth and the sea. The sinners and godless will pass away for fear and the fearful expectation of the things which are to come. Understand, my child, that all these have been initiated by the financial crises. That was just the beginning of ruin. The foundation of today's society will be so shaken that the people will lose all that they have acquired, and saved up till now.
Every infrastructure and welfare will collapse with time. Life will be very difficult for very many people. The general security will get out of control and there will be a proliferation of crime such that life on earth will be massively threatened. But you, who fear my name will I save from ruin. I am holding my arm of protection over you.
Although not even a silent wind blew, and not even a small wave was seen on the sea, the booming was so mighty, that my heart threatened to stop beating. Then I thought to myself, "I will now also die". And then the Lord said to me, "my child, do not fear. You are to live and continue to declare my works. Arise, go home and tell your loved ones. Let them know that the coming of my son is very close at hand, at the doorstep. I am setting everything in motion in order to take my people home, and I am now stripping them of everything that is holding them back, or blocking them."
As I stood up to obey God's voice, starting to make my way homewards, I saw very many people, lying in the dunes. They had come out from their houses, racing towards the sea to see and experience this extraordinary natural spectacle. They lay on their faces as if paralysed, exactly as I had lain a few minutes before now. As I passed by them on my way home, despite the continuous distant booming sound, these people called to me saying "you are crazy; you cannot make it home in this situation. It is too dangerous". They then buried their heads even further in the dunes, because they feared what would happen next. They no longer wanted to hear or know of anything.
And then said the Lord to me: "for you, my children, who fear my name, this is the day of my "mobilization". For you my "sun of salvation" arises, with which I gather my true children, and bring them together. Go, my son, and tell this everyone you can reach".
Then I asked the Lord "what shall I tell them?" "Tell my children, He said", "they are no longer to occupy themselves with perishable things, but rather, much more with the immortal, the eternal things. They are to seek me and study my word. They should forgive one another, so long as there is still time, and make peace with one another.
They should stop being envious of, and pointing fingers at one another. They should neither accuse nor suspect one another. Everyone should do what he is supposed to, and can do. Tell them to free themselves of every unnecessary thing, and to stop fighting spasmodically (intermittently) for their rights. From now on, I will ensure your rights, and provide for justice for you. Great changes are about to occur all over the world, in every area of life. Adjust yourselves therefore and be prepared. Nothing is going to be as it has been before now..."
The further I moved from the beach, the less of the booming sound I heard, even though I was of the opinion that the sound had become stronger and even more massive. I felt as if I had been secured in a class case.
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying "I will bring my children into safety in my own way. You will see everything I will do in the world, which will experience all the "plagues of Egypt" before I withdraw my children unto myself, before Pharaoh releases you forever. My people hold together! Stay with one another, encourage one another. Soon, you would have made it!"
That was the last thing I took with me from this vision.
As I thought about all that I had seen, and what I should do with it, the Lord spoke to me saying "spread this revelation I have given you this morning about my "mobilization" overall further to my children, and encourage them to do likewise, for I am at the door (I am coming soon). And tell them, especially my people, that they should be serious about their relationship with me (God), before it is too late...."
Do help me spread this message overall. Send it to your friends and acquaintances. Spread it your churches and house fellowships. Translate it into other languages.
Maranatha! Our Lord comes.
Pastor Joh Matutis
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on December 08, 2008, 03:18:58 AM
Pastor Joh.W.Matutis, (Berlin / Germany)
www.nnk-berlin.de <http://www.nnk-berlin.de> (english menu)
While praying this morning, God gave me a vision. When the booming refused to stop, and instead became stronger, I saw myself begin to pray in the vision, and to speak with my God.
As I stood up to obey God's voice,
And then said the Lord to me:
Then I asked the
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying
As I thought about all that I had seen, and what I should do with it, the Lord spoke to me
Maranatha! Our Lord comes.
My first question to Mr. Matutis would be "Which God and which Lord are you speaking of? God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Ghost?" :roll:
From Mr. Matutis's church website (http://www.freie-nazarethkirche.de/start.html):
QuoteThere is only one God who consists for ever of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We believe that the baptism should be done in form of immersion in the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost by everyone who has fully repented and who believes with all his/her heart in Jesus as their Saviour and Lord. (Mark 16:16)
We believe in baptism in the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:4. This baptism is for the purpose of equipping the saints for service.
If he can't get the basics right, Jerry, why should I pay heed to him?
Quote from: OGIA on December 09, 2008, 04:18:55 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on December 08, 2008, 03:18:58 AM
Pastor Joh.W.Matutis, (Berlin / Germany)
www.nnk-berlin.de <http://www.nnk-berlin.de> (english menu)
While praying this morning, God gave me a vision. When the booming refused to stop, and instead became stronger, I saw myself begin to pray in the vision, and to speak with my God.
As I stood up to obey God's voice,
And then said the Lord to me:
Then I asked the
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying
As I thought about all that I had seen, and what I should do with it, the Lord spoke to me
Maranatha! Our Lord comes.
My first question to Mr. Matutis would be "Which God and which Lord are you speaking of? God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Ghost?" :roll:
From Mr. Matutis's church website (http://www.freie-nazarethkirche.de/start.html):
QuoteThere is only one God who consists for ever of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
We believe that the baptism should be done in form of immersion in the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost by everyone who has fully repented and who believes with all his/her heart in Jesus as their Saviour and Lord. (Mark 16:16)
We believe in baptism in the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:4. This baptism is for the purpose of equipping the saints for service.
If he can't get the basics right, Jerry, why should I pay heed to him?
You don't John. Not at all.
You don't have to pay heed to anybody you don't want to. Me, him, friends, family, congregation, etc. Your choice. Why don't you ask the Holy Ghost dwelling inside you? He is - after all - the Spirit of Truth able to discern falsehood. Bypass your bias of the messenger and let Him reveal the message. Then, if you don't want to harken, fine. Go on your merry way. Plant daisies! Pet puppies! Listen to the myriad number of preachers who promise us it will never happen!
Like I said - it's up to you. At the very least, it was an interesting article. I prefer to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
Oh, as far as the brother's "basics" go: try out what I call "the thesaurus method" and substitue 'persons' with 'manifested'. It then looks similar to this:
While fully God, Jesus was also fully man, possessing a full and true humanity. He was both God and man. Moreover, the Holy Spirit is God with us and in us. Thus God is manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration. upci website - statement of belief
I'm not getting into that argument again. You're welcome to it. :cool:
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on December 09, 2008, 04:18:46 PM
You don't John. Not at all.
You don't have to pay heed to anybody you don't want to. Me, him, friends, family, congregation, etc. Your choice.
I'm not sure why you get your proverbial undergarments in a knot when someone questions you, Jerry? You come on here, copying and pasting something some guy in Europe claims to have gotten from the Lord, expecting me (and others, I guess) to "
heed the word of the Lord". I don't know this guy from Adam. So, I go to check out where he stands on the truth. It seems he doesn't stand right on the essentials. So, I reject his word. Yep, it might be true, but I'll stick to words from men who have the revelation of truth, not some johnny-come-lately whose walk with God is as clear to me as the sky here in Shreveport tonight. (It's not)
And you seem to think that just because I won't "heed" the words of this unknown that I don't heed anyone's words at all. You go so far as to grant me "permission" to not heed anyone's words, and go on to include some I wouldn't heed in the first place. But, I do thank you for your attempt at granting me permission. ;)
QuoteWhy don't you ask the Holy Ghost dwelling inside you? He is - after all - the Spirit of Truth able to discern falsehood. Bypass your bias of the messenger and let Him reveal the message. Then, if you don't want to harken, fine. Go on your merry way. Plant daisies! Pet puppies! Listen to the myriad number of preachers who promise us it will never happen!
Amazing, the implications in your post, Jerry! If I choose not to heed this man's message
after asking the Holy Ghost if he got this word from Him, I am told to go about my "merry way", ignoring the time I live in, frivolously wasting the gifts the Lord has blessed me with on horticulture and canines. Please! Of course, you then add in the possibility (probability?) that I am following all the false prophets of the.....*gasp*.....UPCI!! :roll:
QuoteAt the very least, it was an interesting article. I prefer to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
Yes, it was an interesting article, and I, too, prefer to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches. That's why I won't heed this man's words. I don't believe he is born again and so he is not a messanger of the Church. His message is very generic and Benny Hinn or Walter Cronkite could have spoken the same thing.
QuoteOh, as far as the brother's "basics" go: try out what I call "the thesaurus method" and substitue 'persons' with 'manifested'.
I prefer not to substitute, Jerry. It usually leads to doctrinal error.
Oh, by the way....I did not learn about the truth from the UPCI. I couldn't care less what they post as their doctrinal statements. I am not a member of the organization and feel it is on its way down a bad road. Sure, there will be a remnant to come out of it, but it did not and does not dictate my beliefs. In fact, I don't really agree with their statement on the godhead. I have learned what I know from men of God whose lives I
KNOW and from my own studies. I choose to follow proven men of God, not a voice in an email from a guy who does not teach truth.
QuoteI'm not getting into that argument again. You're welcome to it. :cool:
No argument here. It is what it is. I've quit arguing with folks. You are also free to accept the truth as well, or not, as anyone else. I can't make you. Just don't expect to post "words" from a man who does not teach truth and the error of that messanger not be brought to light when discovered. :-?
Quote from: OGIA on December 10, 2008, 03:33:20 AM
You come on here, copying and pasting something some guy in Europe claims to have gotten from the Lord, expecting me (and others, I guess) to "heed the word of the Lord". I don't know this guy from Adam. So, I go to check out where he stands on the truth. It seems he doesn't stand right on the essentials. So, I reject his word. Yep, it might be true, but I'll stick to words from men who have the revelation of truth, not some johnny-come-lately whose walk with God is as clear to me as the sky here in Shreveport tonight. (It's not)
The Scriptures tell us that the
Spirit will lead us into truth - not that there is any doctrinal litmus test to which all self-proclaimed messengers of God must be subjected.
God does fill trinitarians with His Spirit, and - gasp - yes, even speaks to and through them. When He does, we ought to listen. If you reject out-of-hand the words of anyone who doesn't believe in/understand oneness, then you're missing out on centuries of profound spiritual insight.
John... the point I was making - howbeit, in a semi-facetious way - was for you to at least attempt to let the Spirit say something before coming to a pre-determined conclusion. We're supposed to do that everyday, especially concerning scripture. That includes every message that comes across the pulpit of any congregation. That includes e-mails, forums, conversations, etc. Talking about my drawers.... listen to yourself!
I have no problem with any questions. It's just that same ole foolishness of - " they don't have/understand Acts 2:38, so nothing they say/do is true." {gag}
I don't really care if you heed or not. I don't really care if you believe it or not. I - Don't - Care! It's none of my business.
I post things that I desire to share with the Body. You don't want it ... ignore it. The brother may not be "oneness", but I am. It's not him you don't trust John. You don't trust me.
The man has some very valuable advice. Note the following:
Then I asked the Lord "what shall I tell them?" "Tell my children, He said", "they are no longer to occupy themselves with perishable things, but rather, much more with the immortal, the eternal things. They are to seek me and study my word. They should forgive one another, so long as there is still time, and make peace with one another.
They should stop being envious of, and pointing fingers at one another. They should neither accuse nor suspect one another. Everyone should do what he is supposed to, and can do. Tell them to free themselves of every unnecessary thing, and to stop fighting spasmodically (intermittently) for their rights. From now on, I will ensure your rights, and provide for justice for you. Great changes are about to occur all over the world, in every area of life. Adjust yourselves therefore and be prepared. Nothing is going to be as it has been before now... And tell them, especially my people, that they should be serious about their relationship with me (God), before it is too late...."
Oh, and the UPCI quote... that was to show how we use the word "manifested" rather than "persons". The UPCI is a well known and respected source that I know you are aware of. I wasn't talking primarily about any falsehood from their preachers. No more than any falsehood coming from other denominations. The falsehood reference was to any preacher promising we will not go thru judgment and tribulation in this country or the Church. Had nothing to do with any organization.
I look forward to any questions John. But make sure they are legitimate ones. Leave accusations at the door. ;)
Quote from: titushome on December 10, 2008, 04:47:46 PM
The Scriptures tell us that the Spirit will lead us into truth - not that there is any doctrinal litmus test to which all self-proclaimed messengers of God must be subjected.
I think you'll find the doctrinal litmus test of all the true prophets of the OT, titushome. That litmus test started with Deut. 6:4. This guy doesn't adhere to that. I choose to leave his message to others to "heed" if they choose.
QuoteGod does fill trinitarians with His Spirit, and - gasp - yes, even speaks to and through them. When He does, we ought to listen. If you reject out-of-hand the words of anyone who doesn't believe in/understand oneness, then you're missing out on centuries of profound spiritual insight.
How do you know when He does speak to and through them? If you don't know that this message came "from God", they why are you suggesting I listen to him? The message might have come from God, but he's not saying anything true children of God aren't saying. I just wonder why we put so much stock in a trinitarians "word from God" and why I am admonished to "heed" the words of a man I have zero knowledge of. If you choose to listen to him, so be it. I was simply calling out this man's doctrinal error and wondering why I am asked to listen to him when I know true saints of God who are much more enlightened than he.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on December 10, 2008, 05:29:46 PM
I don't really care if you heed or not. I don't really care if you believe it or not. I - Don't - Care! It's none of my business.
Well, then maybe you'll quit posting trash from trinitarians?
QuoteIt's not him you don't trust John. You don't trust me.
It's both of you, Jerry. Your move from truth has been predictably followed by your continued posting of junk from those who don't even hold truth in righteousness, much less have a revelation of it. As I said, the man may be right, but why do you just post any old Joe Schmo and expect those who read it to "heed" it? If you didn't expect us to, if you "don't care", etc.....why post it at all? Seems simply because you likely agree with him doctrinally, you expect us to accept his "word from God" as true, and expect us to accept this from someone who's not even in the Body, nonetheless.
QuoteI look forward to any questions John. But make sure they are legitimate ones. Leave accusations at the door. ;)
I don't have any questions about the man's "vision", and my post was not accusational. It was to show outright evidence of the man's lack of knowledge of truth and to question you about why I am expected to "heed" his words. No, Jerry; no accusations. Just bringing darkness to light. He's doctrinally in error. Doesn't the Bible say to avoid those who are?
Quote from: OGIA on December 10, 2008, 10:30:32 PM
Well, then maybe you'll quit posting trash from trinitarians?
someone who's not even in the Body, nonetheless.
He's doctrinally in error. Doesn't the Bible say to avoid those who are?
Ok. If that's how you see things. Let me offer one final word of advice. Heed it only if you desire. ;)
1... Throw out most - if not all - christian music you might have. (most groups are not "oneness", including Hinsons and Goodmans from years ago)
2... Turn off the radio. (same as #1)
3... Get rid of congregational songbooks. (ditto)
4... Cull down worship/choir congregational songs. (ditto)
5... Quit reading "christian' authors. (ditto)
6... Isolate all contact with many family members. (ditto)
7... Instigate background check on friends and workers. (ditto)
8... Quit reading newspapers/newsmagazines. (ditto)
9... Ignore the weatherman's forecasts. (ditto)
And finally...
10... Disregard everything Jesus said or says. He was baptized by John the Baptist. No record of the Apostles rebaptizing Him.Start with those 10, - add in refuse assistance from any unknown source, plus anything else that guarantees avoidance with those doctrinally in error - and you've got the makings for a real good monastary. :freaky2:
**********************************************************
Honestly though. When everything fails and our system of living is gone; when persecution starts and death is the price of proclaiming Jesus Christ; "oneness" or "trinitarian" will not matter. We'll all give our lives. We'll all be depending upon each other. I hope you are able to accept such help when the time comes. Peace.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on December 11, 2008, 01:31:15 AM
10... Disregard everything Jesus said or says. He was baptized by John the Baptist. No record of the Apostles rebaptizing Him.
:roll:
QuoteHonestly though. When everything fails and our system of living is gone; when persecution starts and death is the price of proclaiming Jesus Christ; "oneness" or "trinitarian" will not matter. We'll all give our lives. We'll all be depending upon each other. I hope you are able to accept such help when the time comes. Peace.
"Honestly though"? Does that mean everything you've said up until now has been
dishonest? ???
Jerry, you've moved past "we should heed his word" to me refusing help. I'm not sure the connection. I do realize that the Lord....He being Jesus Christ.....has used some odd methods of protecting His people throughout time. However, I don't heed the words of every Tom, Dick and Harry that decides to email out a "word from the Lord". There's also the bit about false prophets in the last days. How much easier is it to decide a false prophet by the doctrine he holds to? If every false prophet were so easily id'd, this would be a lot easier for some.
I will accept the help the Lord gives me in these last days. I feel led by the Spirit enough to know who and what to follow. My Father will see to it that I recognize those sent by Him and those not. It's just that I've got you.....one whose doctrine I don't believe is biblical in regards to salvation....telling me
"I should pay heed" to a man who can't even figure out how to properly baptize someone. That is the problem I have. And now you're trying to turn this into some game of refusing help when all I ever said was "
why should I heed his words"? Your only answer to that seems to be for me to go pick flowers or play with dogs as I continue to follow the false prophets in my life.
Yes, Jerry, the Lord is soon to come. Might be 7 years from now, might be 100. My lamp is trimmed and I am full of oil. I try to stay that way. Just don't try to scare people with talk of false prophets. I can only hope that Mr. Matutis learns he's not saved and that if the Lord is using him to sound an alarm that he, himself, heeds his own words and comes to the light of truth. I ask it in the name of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: OGIA on December 11, 2008, 03:18:37 AM
"Honestly though"? Does that mean everything you've said up until now has been dishonest? ???
No John. That means the above 10 were written as wry, facetious, & extremely illogical points to 'avoid those in doctrinal error'. But I can see its meaning too was lost on you.
Just forget it.
Night.
Quote from: OGIA on December 10, 2008, 10:22:16 PM
Quote from: titushome on December 10, 2008, 04:47:46 PM
The Scriptures tell us that the Spirit will lead us into truth - not that there is any doctrinal litmus test to which all self-proclaimed messengers of God must be subjected.
I think you'll find the doctrinal litmus test of all the true prophets of the OT, titushome. That litmus test started with Deut. 6:4. This guy doesn't adhere to that. I choose to leave his message to others to "heed" if they choose.
The only Scriptural "test" for prophets is the one stated in Jeremiah 28:9: "when the word of the prophet comes to pass, then that prophet will be known as one whom the LORD has truly sent."
Quote from: OGIA on December 10, 2008, 10:22:16 PM
QuoteGod does fill trinitarians with His Spirit, and - gasp - yes, even speaks to and through them. When He does, we ought to listen. If you reject out-of-hand the words of anyone who doesn't believe in/understand oneness, then you're missing out on centuries of profound spiritual insight.
How do you know when He does speak to and through them? If you don't know that this message came "from God", they why are you suggesting I listen to him?
I know when God is speaking to me through a man's words because the Spirit in me tells me it is so; the Spirit verifies that the man's words are of God.
And I'm not suggesting necessarily that you pay heed to the words of this or any other man. I'm suggesting only that you not reject a man's words as not from God, just because he is trinitarian. You might miss out on something God wants to say to you.
Quote from: titushome on December 11, 2008, 05:24:50 PM
The only Scriptural "test" for prophets is the one stated in Jeremiah 28:9: "when the word of the prophet comes to pass, then that prophet will be known as one whom the LORD has truly sent."
I believe the prophet's knowledge of and worship of the One True God had to come before he belted out any "
Thus saith the Lord"s.
THAT is the litmus test I am referring to. One has gotta get the basics down
first or all else is built on sand.
QuoteI'm suggesting only that you not reject a man's words as not from God, just because he is trinitarian. You might miss out on something God wants to say to you.
When I've surrounded myself with men who know truth and have lived this truth for decades, why would I open myself up to someone who is blinded to even the most basic of truths? I figure God will speak through the true man of God
LONG before He uses a false prophet to give me a word. :grin:
Here it is March 1st.
The usurper president has deceived this nation - and the world - into accepting his leadership.
Trillions of dollars have disappeared from the stock markets.
Drought is affecting a large portion of this country.
Sub-zero weather battered the northern states.
Unemployment is approximately 13%.
The banks who started this mess have been "rewarded" with billions.
The big 3 automakers want even more money.
Gold is $1000 per ounce.
Sec of State Clinton is begging China to continue loaning us money.
Financial/economic experts warn of collapse.
The church still preaches prosperity.
Are we ready yet?
Ready here! :)
I do believe it is going to get a lot worse. I mean A LOT! That is, unless the Lord has given up on the USofA. :smirk2:
I love some of these phrases...
QuoteThe usurper president has deceived this nation - and the world - into accepting his leadership.
The Usurper Part makes me want to giggle - not at you for saying it, but that phrase. I don't like the president, but why do you define him as a usurper, he is legally elected.
QuoteDrought is affecting a large portion of this country.
Not as much as you'd think. I work with Ag. Commodities and while there is some areas of drought, it is not as widespead as the doom and gloom media claims.
QuoteSub-zero weather battered the northern states.
Welcome to winter in Minnesota, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Canada and North Eastern USA! Each and every year it happens. This year was actually pretty mild, many times we see 3 to 4 weeks of sub zero weather from Christmas to mid / late January. We are talking 10 to 40 below in Minneapolis, and worse in northern Minnesota.
QuoteThe church still preaches prosperity.
Not our church and not most of the churches I know personally.
The Usurper Part makes me want to giggle - not at you for saying it, but that phrase. I don't like the president, but why do you define him as a usurper, he is legally elected.
Do you mean "legally" elected via a bought election, rigged electronic voting machines, & multiple illegals voting? Or do you mean "legally" via the just and incorruptible Electoral College? :laughhard:
I was primarily referring to his refusal to provide documented birth certificate for eligibility to even run. ALL his records are sealed and the Courts are throwing out LEGAL inquiries w/o even a hearing. His own family members have placed his birthplace in Kenya, not Hawaii. Besides which, out of all the alias' names he's used.... what is his REAL name?
Personally, it doesn't matter to me. He's not my king. I'm just making reference.
Drought is affecting a large portion of this country.
Not as much as you'd think. I work with Ag. Commodities and while there is some areas of drought, it is not as widespead as the doom and gloom media claims.
Well that's good news. Except for the areas whose lakes {water sources} are shrinking, livestock grass is practically non-existent, home foundations are cracking, fire danger in the red, crops not coming in, farmers going broke buying alternative feed - all affected by no or insubstantial rain. It's not even the dry season yet!
You're right. Everything is A-OK. All Govt propaganda via the "gloom and doom media" {those lying jackals}. Eat, drink, and be merry! All is well and things are normal. Sail on, Mac Duff! :thumbsup2:
Welcome to winter in Minnesota, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Canada and North Eastern USA! Each and every year it happens. This year was actually pretty mild, many times we see 3 to 4 weeks of sub zero weather from Christmas to mid / late January. We are talking 10 to 40 below in Minneapolis, and worse in northern Minnesota.
True, it does get very cold up there on a regular basis. Yet when taken in conjunction with the entire country - record lows, record snowfalls, record highs, etc - it all adds up.
the church still preaches prosperity.
Not our church and not most of the churches I know personally.
That's good. What do they teach? Cause the Church at large does continue to focus on prosperity. The Church at large does continue to proclaim: this is a bump in the road and America will get thru it. God is going to heal the land. The Church at large does continue to live unaware of what the Spirit is saying to the churches. The Church at large is not prepared for the continuing judgment upon this nation, nor the changes upon us.
That's why I ask.... are you ready?
Quote from: OGIA on March 03, 2009, 08:55:09 PM
Ready here! :)
I do believe it is going to get a lot worse. I mean A LOT! That is, unless the Lord has given up on the USofA. :smirk2:
Yeah, it's getting worse. What's that storm in Acts--- Euroclydon or something like that? I believe America's time is up. Individual basis now. Who will and will not repent.
Reminds me of that old Patrick Swayze movie...."This ain't Bad, but Bad's coming!"
The most important thing is to be ready spiritually. Be sure all is right and square with the LORD. That's our ark. That's our safety. There is no "safe haven" that will not be effected. We just have to listen to our King and trust Him whether we live or die. We have to overcome.
They overcame by the blood of the lamb, the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.
There has been much stirring the last few weeks concerning this country. Today, the following was posted. Not for fear, but for preparation. We really, really, really are on the cusp here. Please take this subject seriously.
*****************************************************************
Saturday, March 7, 2009
AN URGENT MESSAGE
I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to send out an urgent message to all on our mailing list, and to friends and to bishops we have met all over the world.
AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE - EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US.
For ten years I have been warning about a thousand fires coming to New York City. It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires—such as we saw in Watts, Los Angeles, years ago.
There will be riots and fires in cities worldwide. There will be looting—including Times Square, New York City. What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. We are under God's wrath. In Psalm 11 it is written,
"If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?" (v. 3).
God is judging the raging sins of America and the nations. He is destroying the secular foundations.
The prophet Jeremiah pleaded with wicked Israel, "God is fashioning a calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh, turn back each of you from your evil way, and reform your ways and deeds. But they will say, It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart" (Jeremiah 18:11-12).
In Psalm 11:6, David warns, "Upon the wicked he will rain snares (coals of fire)...fire...burning wind...will be the portion of their cup." Why? David answered, "Because the Lord is righteous" (v. 7). This is a righteous judgment—just as in the judgments of Sodom and in Noah's generation.
WHAT SHALL THE RIGHTEOUS DO? WHAT ABOUT GOD'S PEOPLE?
First, I give you a practical word I received for my own direction. If possible lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials. In major cities, grocery stores are emptied in an hour at the sign of an impending disaster.
As for our spiritual reaction, we have but two options. This is outlined in Psalm 11. We "flee like a bird to a mountain." Or, as David says, "He fixed his eyes on the Lord on his throne in heaven—his eyes beholding, his eyelids testing the sons of men" (v. 4). "In the Lord I take refuge" (v. 1).
I will say to my soul: No need to run...no need to hide. This is God's righteous work. I will behold our Lord on his throne, with his eye of tender, loving kindness watching over every step I take—trusting that he will deliver his people even through floods, fires, calamities, tests, trials of all kinds.
Note: I do not know when these things will come to pass, but I know it is not far off. I have unburdened my soul to you. Do with the message as you choose.
God bless and keep you,
In Christ,
DAVID WILKERSON
Posted by David Wilkerson on 3/07/09
Quote
I was primarily referring to his refusal to provide documented birth certificate for eligibility to even run. ALL his records are sealed and the Courts are throwing out LEGAL inquiries w/o even a hearing. His own family members have placed his birthplace in Kenya, not Hawaii. Besides which, out of all the alias' names he's used.... what is his REAL name?
All candidates must present proof of citizenship to the election board when they file to run. They are not however required to release personal records to the public. Sealing records is pretty common for people in higher office
QuoteTrue, it does get very cold up there on a regular basis. Yet when taken in conjunction with the entire country - record lows, record snowfalls, record highs, etc - it all adds up.
Weather is cyclical - always has been, always will be
Quote
the church still preaches prosperity.
Not our church and not most of the churches I know personally.
That's good. What do they teach?
Acts 2:38
I don't know of any church in our area that teaches it, I did know a preacher that did, but he fell into sin
Quote from: Scott on March 09, 2009, 01:01:10 AM
Quote
I was primarily referring to his refusal to provide documented birth certificate for eligibility to even run. ALL his records are sealed and the Courts are throwing out LEGAL inquiries w/o even a hearing. His own family members have placed his birthplace in Kenya, not Hawaii. Besides which, out of all the alias' names he's used.... what is his REAL name?
All candidates must present proof of citizenship to the election board when they file to run. They are not however required to release personal records to the public. Sealing records is pretty common for people in higher office
I take it then, that you are not familiar with the lawsuits via Freedom of Information Act that have been stonewalled since way before the election. No matter. I stand on my earlier statements.
True, it does get very cold up there on a regular basis. Yet when taken in conjunction with the entire country - record lows, record snowfalls, record highs, etc - it all adds up. Weather is cyclical - always has been, always will beI take it then that you ascribe the recent/current destruction caused by hurricanes, floods, drought, record-breaking heat/cold waves - as nothing more than 'weather cycles as usual'? There is nothing there to hint at judgment upon this sinful nation?
the church still preaches prosperity.Not our church and not most of the churches I know personally.That's good. What do they teach?
Acts 2:38 Beyond that..... anything about being led of the Spirit in giving? Anything about lay not treasures upon earth? Anything about deny yourself and take up your cross? Anything about my kingdom is not of this world? Anything such as that?
I don't know of any church in our area that teaches it, I did know a preacher that did, but he fell into sinThat's sad. Do you know any preachers or christians who are not of your denomination? A careful check will reveal the prosperity gospel is alive and well throughout the entire Body of Christ - including Acts 2:38 adherents.
I wonder Scott.... do you even believe the coming of the LORD is nigh? Do you believe the warning signs screaming at this nation and the world? Are you - like so much of the Body - asleep as to the time in which we now live? Do you think the warnings and admonishments I post are simply products of doom & gloom media frenzy? I really wonder. I really do.
The Body better prepare. All you lurkers out there who may not be sure what it all means. I'll tell you what it means. It means the economy is not going to right itself like is has in the past. It means the US Dollar is soon to be worthless. It means there will be shortages of food and other essentials. It means Christians who dare to stand up for Jesus Christ and insist that the cross is the only way to God - no matter the denomination - will ultimately be killed. It means everything you have heard and studied about the coming of the LORD is happening!
This is the Day of the LORD; the 7th day from Adam and the 3rd day from Jesus Christ. This is the time of the closing door upon a sinful and unrepentant church who continues to play the harlot. The easy life is over. Brace yourselves, for the night is swiftly approaching. Understand that the entire purpose of the BEAST KINGDOM is to make war with and overcome the Saints. The devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy; and he has the authority of our FATHER to do so. Time for games is done with. We must all examine ourselves and put aside every weight/sin that prevents conforming to Jesus' image.
What is coming quickly is designed to forever eradicate Man's kingdoms. That's why the weather damage to crops, land, shipping, production, etc. That's why the economy of America and the world is collapsing. The stock market will fall and never rise again. The time of trusting in mammon is over. GOD is bringing everything to a halt and forcing HIS people to depend upon HIM. The America we all knew is gone forever. The pulpits need to address this soon, or it'll be too late. Remember Jesus' warning.... the flood came and took them all away. They were not prepared. They did not heed the warnings. They never dreamed it would happen to them. Had not Noah been preaching this since their parents were children? Even the animals coming to the Ark did not convince them. How many of us will remain so blind? How many of us can't see the forest for the trees? Why do we insist it's business as usual?
Please.... don't take my word for it.... pray.... do an internet search.... listen to someone who refuses to ignore the screaming of the Holy Ghost. Don't let the status quo ministers/ministry convince you that "all is well". It's not. Euroclydon has the ship in its grip and will not let go. Everything is going to be shaken to see what is of GOD. Even our religious idols will not survive. We must fall upon the Rock, lest the Rock fall upon us. The kingdoms of this world are being brought down for the establishment of King Jesus. America will not survive as she was. She too will fall. Obama has his part to play and will play it well. Be a good Berean..... look into it while you can.
Jesus said 2000 years ago "Behold, I come quickly".
The disciples that walked with Him thought his return would happen before they died.
So has every generation of believers since then.
It's true, we have wars, rumor of wars, pestilence, disease, famines. Earthquakes, hurricanes, fires, tornadoes, tsunamis, droughts. But again, that's nothing new either. We've had all those things before, often on larger scales than we do now, and if we don't have records of them being clustered so close and so often as they are now, think about how long we've actually kept records of weather phenomena.
One preacher at our church made the comment regarding Katrina, "The entire french quarter, perhaps the most sinful section of the city was spared. And several apostolic churches were completely destroyed. I don't know about you friend, but I know my God has better aim than that!"
I'm not saying don't be prepared. Every single person *should* search their own heart and make sure they are right with God, because those that don't risk being caught unawares like the virgins in the parable. But scripture also says NO MAN knoweth the hour. Read whatever you want into current events, bad as they may be, you have no more biblical ground to state the end is nigh than people did 2000 years ago. God will come in His time, and His time alone, and we're not going to be able to predict it.
I mean, as long as we're talking hypotheticals here, ponder this. What's going to happen to someone's faith who comes to God under the belief that judgement is imminent, and then it doesn't happen. 5 weeks, 5 months, 5 years later, the world is continuing as it was. I don't know about you, but if that's what got me into church, that could be rather hard hitting to my faith.
Are things bad? Sure are. Is America full of sin? No doubt. Is everything going on God's way of judging the nation and heralding in the end of times? Hardly. Things are continuing much as they have before, and will again if the Lord tarries.
QuoteQuote from: onli-one-jehovi on March 09, 2009, 03:58:24 AM
Quote from: Scott on March 09, 2009, 01:01:10 AM
Quote
I was primarily referring to his refusal to provide documented birth certificate for eligibility to even run. ALL his records are sealed and the Courts are throwing out LEGAL inquiries w/o even a hearing. His own family members have placed his birthplace in Kenya, not Hawaii. Besides which, out of all the alias' names he's used.... what is his REAL name?
All candidates must present proof of citizenship to the election board when they file to run. They are not however required to release personal records to the public. Sealing records is pretty common for people in higher office
I take it then, that you are not familiar with the lawsuits via Freedom of Information Act that have been stonewalled since way before the election. No matter. I stand on my earlier statements.
I heard about them on Late Night George Noory Radio and many conspiracy theory web sites. The law is on his side, he only has to release his Birth Cert to the Election board when he files, nothing says that he nor anyone else has to release their personal records publically.
True, it does get very cold up there on a regular basis. Yet when taken in conjunction with the entire country - record lows, record snowfalls, record highs, etc - it all adds up.
QuoteWeather is cyclical - always has been, always will be
I take it then that you ascribe the recent/current destruction caused by hurricanes, floods, drought, record-breaking heat/cold waves - as nothing more than 'weather cycles as usual'? There is nothing there to hint at judgment upon this sinful nation?
Weather Cycle..
I do not ascribe all bad in the world as God's judgment upon America.
QuoteBeyond that..... anything about being led of the Spirit in giving? Anything about lay not treasures upon earth? Anything about deny yourself and take up your cross? Anything about my kingdom is not of this world? Anything such as that?
Sounds like bible to me. We teach the bible my friend.
QuoteI wonder Scott.... do you even believe the coming of the LORD is nigh?
I do as do most Christians
QuoteDo you believe the warning signs screaming at this nation and the world?
There are signs true, but not as great as the depression and WWII years.
QuoteAre you - like so much of the Body - asleep as to the time in which we now live?
Asleep right now? ? ?
QuoteDo you think the warnings and admonishments I post are simply products of doom & gloom media frenzy? I really wonder. I really do.
Doom and gloom media hype!
Quote from: CDAGeek on March 09, 2009, 06:57:33 PM
Jesus said 2000 years ago "Behold, I come quickly".
The disciples that walked with Him thought his return would happen before they died.
So has every generation of believers since then.
It's true, we have wars, rumor of wars, pestilence, disease, famines. Earthquakes, hurricanes, fires, tornadoes, tsunamis, droughts. But again, that's nothing new either. We've had all those things before, often on larger scales than we do now, and if we don't have records of them being clustered so close and so often as they are now, think about how long we've actually kept records of weather phenomena.
One preacher at our church made the comment regarding Katrina, "The entire french quarter, perhaps the most sinful section of the city was spared. And several apostolic churches were completely destroyed. I don't know about you friend, but I know my God has better aim than that!"
I'm not saying don't be prepared. Every single person *should* search their own heart and make sure they are right with God, because those that don't risk being caught unawares like the virgins in the parable. But scripture also says NO MAN knoweth the hour. Read whatever you want into current events, bad as they may be, you have no more biblical ground to state the end is nigh than people did 2000 years ago. God will come in His time, and His time alone, and we're not going to be able to predict it.
I mean, as long as we're talking hypotheticals here, ponder this. What's going to happen to someone's faith who comes to God under the belief that judgement is imminent, and then it doesn't happen. 5 weeks, 5 months, 5 years later, the world is continuing as it was. I don't know about you, but if that's what got me into church, that could be rather hard hitting to my faith.
Are things bad? Sure are. Is America full of sin? No doubt. Is everything going on God's way of judging the nation and heralding in the end of times? Hardly. Things are continuing much as they have before, and will again if the Lord tarries.
Very elegant and traditional response. No need for me to rehash a refute. I'm sure you've heard them all. Would like to make one, small comment though:
if the Lord tarries ........ See, that's just it. He's not tarrying any longer. Things
aren't continuing as they have before. No amount of explanations will change that. But thanks for answering.
Quote from: Scott on March 09, 2009, 10:39:14 PM
QuoteDo you think the warnings and admonishments I post are simply products of doom & gloom media frenzy? I really wonder. I really do.
Doom and gloom media hype!
You're the head here on this site. Want me to quit. Walk away from this? Drop what you refer to as "media hype"?
Quoteif the Lord tarries ........ See, that's just it. He's not tarrying any longer. Things aren't continuing as they have before. No amount of explanations will change that. But thanks for answering.
You've yet to show how things aren't continuing as they have before. Or any proof that the current trials the world faces aren't just more results of the world's corruption and fallen nature that it's dealt with since sin entered it.
The fact is, we don't know. Jesus could return tomorrow, or it could be another 2000 years off. The scripture is very plain when it says no man knows. I'm all for being ready - everyone should live their life spiritually as if any moment could be their last, otherwise they do risk being unprepared when Jesus returns. But by no means do we know that right now we are on the verge of it. To claim so goes against scripture.
Should we be ready? Yes. Should we prepare? Yes. Do we know for fact the current plights are a sign of his imminent return? No.
Quote from: CDAGeek on March 09, 2009, 06:57:33 PM
One preacher at our church made the comment regarding Katrina, "The entire french quarter, perhaps the most sinful section of the city was spared. And several apostolic churches were completely destroyed. I don't know about you friend, but I know my God has better aim than that!"
I mean, as long as we're talking hypotheticals here, ponder this. What's going to happen to someone's faith who comes to God under the belief that judgement is imminent, and then it doesn't happen. 5 weeks, 5 months, 5 years later, the world is continuing as it was. I don't know about you, but if that's what got me into church, that could be rather hard hitting to my faith.
Two other things....
And several apostolic churches were completely destroyed.Perhaps HE knew them to be more unrighteous than anyone realized. Judgment begins at the House of the Lord - that is among HIS people. Biblical history shows the destruction of "God's temple" was necessary to break the yoke of religion off believers. Many, many Jewish Christians remained fixated upon "God's Temple" and neglected the leading of the Holy Spirit. The church today tends toward the same bent. Jesus himself never had anything harsh to say toward sinners. It was the church of that time - those who were supposed to know better - who received the scathing of the LORD. It won't be any different today. We are supposed to know the time and seasons, but we don't. {Taken as a whole} What do you think HE's going to say? I for one, do not want to hear it said to me.
if that's what got me into church, that could be rather hard hitting to my faithI can see that. Yet, if it takes fear to keep me "in church" - that means I never developed a true relationship with Jesus. Such ones need to have their faith challenged. Actually, such faith needs to be shattered. Such faith is in "church" and not Christ.
Besides, how hard hitting will it be to millions in the Body when the pulpit promised "rapture" doesn't occur when we think it will? How hard hitting will it be when "Christian America" endures even worse calamities in the months to come? How hard hitting will it be when thousands of "preachers" are proven wrong?
The truth is always hard hitting to tradition faith. The 10 virgins were all asleep when the midnight call came. Some still need to wake up.
Quote from: CDAGeek on March 09, 2009, 11:21:54 PM
Quoteif the Lord tarries ........ See, that's just it. He's not tarrying any longer. Things aren't continuing as they have before. No amount of explanations will change that. But thanks for answering.
You've yet to show how things aren't continuing as they have before. Or any proof that the current trials the world faces aren't just more results of the world's corruption and fallen nature that it's dealt with since sin entered it.
The fact is, we don't know. Jesus could return tomorrow, or it could be another 2000 years off. The scripture is very plain when it says no man knows. I'm all for being ready - everyone should live their life spiritually as if any moment could be their last, otherwise they do risk being unprepared when Jesus returns. But by no means do we know that right now we are on the verge of it. To claim so goes against scripture.
Should we be ready? Yes. Should we prepare? Yes. Do we know for fact the current plights are a sign of his imminent return? No.
How things aren't continuing as they have before...... take a look at Wall Street, the Banking industry, the housing industry, the govts of the world, the weather storms, etc.
The US Stock Market had 7 trillion dollars evaporate in 6 months. The Govt has indebted we-the-people for over 8 trillion dollars in bail-outs. This is bail-outs and nationalization of the entire banking industry in this country. A close look at the recipients will show the majority to be owners of the Federal Reserve!
For the first time since Noah, a government established by the people has chosen to legitimize homosexual marriage. Not even the Greeks and Romans did that. The world itself is blatantly promoting one-world global government, with all that entails. A primary weapon in the so-called war on terrorism, is to freeze banking abilities. Does not scripture say - no man may buy or sell? This is unheard of in the history of the world. And some have the blind audacity to say "things are continuing as before?"
But by no means do we know that right now we are on the verge of it. To claim so goes against scripture.Au contrair. Scripture repeatedly tells us the times and seasons of Jesus' return and what to watch for. He even tells us it will be on the third & last day - 3000 yrs from Christ, 7000 yrs from Adam. It is no coincidence that all we see happening today begin to converge immediately after the year 2000. To claim we cannot know goes against scripture and the constant leading of the Holy Ghost. Some of us refuse to see the animals and are waiting for the rain.
Be a good Berean. Do your homework.
I hope that most here do not consider these warnings as "media hype". For those who do..... ignore it. For those who do not.... it is essential not to fear. Our King has everything under control and HE will take care of us.
Usually, the first thing I want to know is.....what do I do? The most important thing is to get the spiritual house in order. Be prepared spiritually so that the voice of the Holy Ghost can be clearly heard. HE will tell you what to do on an individual basis. If we listen to HIM, we will be alright.
I meant to post this yesterday, but got side-tracked.
*******************************************************
"If the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do?"
Recently I felt compelled to send out an URGENT message warning of an impending great calamity — such that will cause even God's elect to tremble.
One Bishop asked, "Is there no further word: How should the righteous respond to such a word?"
I can only answer by sharing what the Holy Spirit is speaking to my own heart and what I am to do. I shared that I was led in a practical way to lay aside a month's supply of food — because I have witnessed the panic in the wake of terrorism. That has to be a personal word for every individual.
This is what I hear the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart concerning my own spiritual response to impending calamity. It is simply this —STAND STILL AND SEE THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
"And Moses said to the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which he will show you today...The Lord shall fight for you, and you shall hold your peace" (Exodus 14:13-14).
This is the attitude of faith in the face of calamity. What could Israel do on the brink of the Red Sea ? Pharaoh's army is pressing in, mountains are on both sides, and there is an impossible sea ahead. The flesh cries, "Do something!"
The flesh cries hopelessness. Can God's people dry up the sea? Level a mountain? Fight a great army without having weapons? They are in what appears to be a dreadful, frightening situation. God's people tremble — and in this hour of trembling comes a word from God. In essence:
"Stand still. Fear not. This is the hour of salvation. You are going to witness the pulling down of the foundations of a world power. But in the same hour, I will fight for you. Hold your peace — be still and see my works."
Beloved, my warning is just one voice among many who are saying the same thing. We may all tremble for a season, but those who truly know God's Word will be quickly comforted by the Holy Spirit. We will be baptized with a great peace — a supernatural quietness — which will be a tremendous witness to the fearful multitudes.
In Christ,
3-8-09 David Wilkerson
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on March 09, 2009, 11:06:58 PM
Quote from: Scott on March 09, 2009, 10:39:14 PM
QuoteDo you think the warnings and admonishments I post are simply products of doom & gloom media frenzy? I really wonder. I really do.
Doom and gloom media hype!
You're the head here on this site. Want me to quit. Walk away from this? Drop what you refer to as "media hype"?
Not at all
By the way ... I LOVE media hype :laughhard:
it gets people talking and...
This
is
a
Discussion Board
if Media Hype makes people talk and they can have fun without killing each other...
I am all for it.
:freaky2: :freaky2: :freaky2: :freaky2:
Quote from: Scott on March 10, 2009, 10:49:54 PM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on March 09, 2009, 11:06:58 PM
Quote from: Scott on March 09, 2009, 10:39:14 PM
QuoteDo you think the warnings and admonishments I post are simply products of doom & gloom media frenzy? I really wonder. I really do.
Doom and gloom media hype!
You're the head here on this site. Want me to quit. Walk away from this? Drop what you refer to as "media hype"?
Not at all
By the way ... I LOVE media hype :laughhard:
it gets people talking and...
This
is
a
Discussion Board
if Media Hype makes people talk and they can have fun without killing each other...
I am all for it.
:freaky2: :freaky2: :freaky2: :freaky2:
Thanks. I can be agitating w/o really intending to ..... sometimes. :freaky2:
Ok. Now that we have received another warning from the LORD, the question remains: What shall we do? The obvious is to be spiritually prepared and safe within the sheepfold. This calamity will ultimately - and currently does - affect the whole world. There will not be any natural "safe place" unless the LORD prepares one. Thus, the "ark" truly is Christ. I can't remember which Book it is in, but do a bible search on the Sheepfold of Bozrah. That gives a pretty good picture of where God is placing us.
Anyway, here is a pastor's response to an urgent warning.
*********************************************************************
Friday, March 13, 2009
A PASTOR'S RESPONSE TO "AN URGENT WARNING"
By Gary Wilkerson
It is the task of a true prophet to warn. We have recently heard such a clear warning of perilous days just ahead of us. The prophet is like a man who comes to warn a shepherd that ravenous wolves are approaching.
It then becomes the shepherd's task to appropriately discern the warning and to guide those in his care to a place of wisdom and security. I am not a prophet. I am a local pastor. I must ask myself what I am to do in light of hearing the warning from God. What should I say to those under my pastoral care?
First, I want my people to clearly hear the word. What is it saying and what is it not saying. Some have heard of fires and looting and their hearts are filled with fear. I am to assure my people that God is always completely in control. God is sovereign. Nothing takes place outside of his notice and counsel, and all things happen for his ultimate, highest glory. Even in the most troubling of times, our God knows exactly what he is doing.
Second, I want those I serve to know two things concerning God's wrath. First, some leaders in the church have sadly fallen into the deception that there is no such thing as the wrath of God. Roman 1:18 says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth." Some act in ungodly ways, others are ungodly by their suppressing the truth of God's wrath. Some leaders reduce, ignore and even ridicule anyone who reminds them of the certainty of God's wrath. Romans 2:5 also tells us clearly that the wrath of God is toward those whose hearts are hard and impenitent. This leads to the second element of understanding God's wrath. It is never, ever, ever poured out on the children of God. In I John 2:2 "He is the propitiation for our sins." The word propitiation means "wrath quencher." What marvelous grace, what redemption! God's wrath at my rebellion and sin has been quenched on the Cross of Christ. Hard times come; rain falls even on the just but wrath does not.
Last, I am obligated to guide the flock given to me with loving-kindness and soberness. If a wolf or a storm is coming, I as a shepherd must know the conditions of my flock. Are any sitting on the fence? Warn them that this is no time for compromise or close affiliation with the world. Partying in the house of an Egyptian on the night of the Passover is definitely not a good idea. This is a time to stay close to the Chief Shepherd. This is also an opportunity for us to call out to those outside the gate. Jesus is the Door and has opened his heart. His cry it that all flee from wrath to come. More than shrinking behind a double-locked door or fleeing to a rural farm, this is a call from Jesus to move your life into the sheepfold.
When a prophet comes with a message of warning, often people want the prophet to give them specific advice about what to do in response. At times, God gives the prophet a word, but more often it is up to the shepherd, and even more so, up to every man of God to take the word into account for his own family. Just as a pastor has stewardship of the church, a man of God is to give an account of his own family. When one comes to warn that wolves are coming, it is not always his responsibility to tell them what to do. We can hear from God. Joseph heard God say to store up food for the season to come (Genesis 41). Moses heard God say to receive gifts from the Egyptians for their journey (Exodus12). We as well can hear from God for our situation. Sheep do hear the Shepherd's voice.
Jesus—in this hour, in this storm—will not only guide his people and comfort his flock but will also give them boldness, confidence and a heart to serve those troubled by the afflictions. A prophet once came to Paul and prophesied that if he went to Jerusalem he would be bound and put in prison. The prophet was faithful to give his word; it was up to Paul to hear from God how to deal with that warning. Paul, after hearing the prophecy, still decided to go to Jerusalem—willing to risk his life for the gospel (Acts 21). Some will hear and stay in a place of safety; others will hear and go to a place to serve. Some churches are positioned in cities that will need their spiritual strength and compassion. Perhaps the wisdom of Paul in Ephesians 5:15-18 speaks most to what we need, "Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise but as wise, making the best use of the time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit."
Posted by David Wilkerson on 3/13/2009
David is back in the public eye....
Now he can sell some more books....
Quote from: Scott on March 14, 2009, 09:16:36 PM
David is back in the public eye....
Now he can sell some more books....
Yes he can.
Or, he can make them available for free viewing online.
America's Last Call:
http://worldchallenge.edgeboss.net/download/worldchallenge/books/americas_last_call.pdf
God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression: http://worldchallenge.edgeboss.net/download/worldchallenge/books/gods_plan_to_protect_his_people.pdf
It's a lot easier to mock someone than it is to prayerfully consider the truth of their message.
I'm disappointed in you. As the "head" of this forum, you've just affirmed & authorized everyone here to do the same. I guess that Ishmael spirit is alive and kicking.
What is it you're so worked up about onli-one-jehovi? Boil it down for me if you will, because I'm not reading 6 pages of rantings to get at your points.... I don't know you well enough to believe what you have to say is worth the effort.
Quote from: titushome on July 10, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
It is troubling. My hope is that if Americans will not turn back to God now, then perhaps the coming of judgment will cause us to turn back to Him. God's judgment often has that effect on a people.
The idea that America was ever a "Godly" nation is a myth; it's nostalgia for a time that never was (the same thing happened in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire). It's true that various Christian philosophies have lost ground to other foreign (mostly Eastern) philosophies in America, but aside from that there's nothing to turn back to. Don't forget, when this country was at it's "Godliest" they burned those who preached baptism in Jesus' Name at the stake. If you're talking about the 1800's and early 1900's, yes the country held (as a general rule) a higher moral standard, but so did the rest of the civilized world. After all, American's have aped the fashions of Europe since the country's inception.
I was just pondering on all of this yesterday. You know, there might not be as many Americans in the Rapture as we assume there will be. Most of the true saints are probably in other countries by now.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on March 15, 2009, 02:06:31 PM
Quote from: Scott on March 14, 2009, 09:16:36 PM
David is back in the public eye....
Now he can sell some more books....
Yes he can.
Or, he can make them available for free viewing online.
America's Last Call:
http://worldchallenge.edgeboss.net/download/worldchallenge/books/americas_last_call.pdf
God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression:
http://worldchallenge.edgeboss.net/download/worldchallenge/books/gods_plan_to_protect_his_people.pdf
It's a lot easier to mock someone than it is to prayerfully consider the truth of their message.
I'm disappointed in you. As the "head" of this forum, you've just affirmed & authorized everyone here to do the same. I guess that Ishmael spirit is alive and kicking.
Mock?
Moi?
Of course, I do by the way consider the good David Wilkerson to be a false prophet, so I will mock him.
JMHO
Quote from: Jallen on March 16, 2009, 03:09:41 AM
What is it you're so worked up about onli-one-jehovi? Boil it down for me if you will, because I'm not reading 6 pages of rantings to get at your points.... I don't know you well enough to believe what you have to say is worth the effort.
What am I so worked up about? Boil it down for you? Ok. In a nutshell: Judgment is here & we are not ready.
And if it's rantings you do not desire to peruse, then you might as well stay away from all forums. Every topic is full of them. Some of it isn't worth it. Most of it is.
However, you can't know anyone well enough by reading one or two posts. If you're interested, you have to put forth the effort.
I was just pondering on all of this yesterday. You know, there might not be as many Americans in the Rapture as we assume there will be. Most of the true saints are probably in other countries by now.That's probably true. Thus, judgment upon this country will hopefully bring repentance to many. We need to be ready to manifest Jesus Christ to them in the midst of our calamities. Food, clothing, and shelter; as well as the comfort/grace of the Word of God. We need to be ready.
Quote from: Scott on March 16, 2009, 03:47:48 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on March 15, 2009, 02:06:31 PM
Quote from: Scott on March 14, 2009, 09:16:36 PM
David is back in the public eye....
Now he can sell some more books....
Yes he can.
Or, he can make them available for free viewing online.
America's Last Call:
http://worldchallenge.edgeboss.net/download/worldchallenge/books/americas_last_call.pdf
God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression:
http://worldchallenge.edgeboss.net/download/worldchallenge/books/gods_plan_to_protect_his_people.pdf
It's a lot easier to mock someone than it is to prayerfully consider the truth of their message.
I'm disappointed in you. As the "head" of this forum, you've just affirmed & authorized everyone here to do the same. I guess that Ishmael spirit is alive and kicking.
Mock?
Moi?
Of course, I do by the way consider the good David Wilkerson to be a false prophet, so I will mock him.
JMHO
And you're entitled to it.
I, of course, hold that all the preachers and saints who blithely contend that:
"All is well. All is as it was before. This is just a cycle of _________. We'll be ok. There is still lots of time. Someday Jesus will come."
are deceived by lying spirits. Such have tickling ears and hear only what satisfies them, having not a love for the truth. This is the bulk of the Church.
I was reminded of Isaiah, who said:
8.Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever {the latter day}: 9.That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: 10.Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: 11.Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us. 12.Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression {fraud} and perverseness, and stay thereon: 13.Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant. 14.And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.
(Isa 30:8-14)Time will tell. It always does.
I find that we as a church will not grow, nor see souls saved and kept if we continue to bombard them with doom and gloom scenarios. In the mid to late 1980's several ministers went through the UPCI and ALJC with doom and gloom preaching, full of conspiracies and prophecies of eminent disaster, danger, the mark of the beast, Gog and Magog and all sorts of scary scenarios. Souls were saved and churches were filled, we shouted and danced and proclaimed GREAT revival.
Within 5 years most of those saved through doom and gloom were gone!
Why? That type of ''ministry'' fosters fear and God has not given us the Spirit of Fear!
When will the Lord return? I don't know and I refuse to get involved in any predictions about his returning because no man knoweth the day nor the hour.
Could he come today?
Yup!
Could he come before I click on the post button?
Yup!
Could my children's children be having this same discussion in the year 2059?
Yup!
But to try and predict and convince people that NOW is the time - that borders on false prophet behavior.
I've read many of Wilkerson's materials over the years, read some of his earlier prophecies and frankly they did not come true!
So do I take his warning as true words from the Lord?
Nope!
Why?
He denies the oneness of God
He denies the New Testament baptism for the Nicean Formula; thus alligning himself with the Roman Catholic Church in Baptism - the same RCC that he loves to take to task.
I understand what you're saying. I even agree - to a point. Promoting fear never lasts. But if fear comes, it comes to those unsure and unprepared for the flood. Quite frankly, a good dose of fear can do wonders in bringing our flesh under subjection. Sinners in the hand of an angry God. Warning of calamity brings repentance to the sincere. Ninevah comes to mind.
God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of a sound mind. That sound mind is the mind of Christ. Right now, the klaxon call is sounding; blaring out its warning. The sound mind of Christ understands that redemption draws nigh. The sound mind recognizes the glory that is to come, and the inummerable host redeemed out of this great tribulation; to the glory of the Lamb.
I remember the 80's. In retrospect, I believe God was giving us a time of repentance; just as He did Ninevah. The book of Amos speaks of the mercy of God in delaying His judgment twice. America hasn't repented. This time is different. This is the 3rd day of Christ and the 7th day of Adam. It will happen.... this time.
People do not stay because of their ground, not because of the net. It is with the heart that man believes and is saved, not with the mind. The same statistics hold true for those who come to God via addictions or depression or loneliness. Unless the heart is fallowed into good ground, the seed is choked out. Fear is not the only cause.
True, no man knows the exact day or hour.... yet. Both Daniel and Revelation tell us the exact amount of time between point A and point B. Thus, if you find out when A begins (began), then B comes Xdays after that. Jesus repeatedly told us He would come on the 3rd Day - {just as God told us the ending is the 7th Day} - and gave warning signs for that time. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the conglomeration of all signs since 2001.
Has it brought fear? A certain amount. But it really brings a resolve and hope. Joyfullness and sorrow. For the kingdoms of this world are being brought down by the mountain made w/o hands. The earth is being prepared for the physical coming of the Kingdom of God. All things are being shaken that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Part of me hates to see the future I'd planned for myself to disappear, yet there is a joy in knowing what I've hoped for over the last 45yrs is coming to pass.
He cannot come today for the fullness of time has not occurred. He cannot come until the end of the tribulation, which is at the early stages. Any discussion in 2059 will be past tense within the Kingdom. Scripturally, physically, and spiritually - this is it.
How can recognizing the times revealed in the Word border false prophet behavior? Daniel told the exact date and time that Messiah would appear, centuries before it happened. All the people had to do was read the book. Yet only a handful believed and recognized Him. Simeon and Anna knew the scriptures and were looking for Him. They knew the time and the season, but not the day. Why do you think they hung around the Temple where the newborns would come for circumcision? The very priesthood assigned with the responsibility to watch and declare His coming were nowhere to be found. Why? Because they did not really believe scripture; nor did they really believe the Spirit. That's why Simeon and Anna were foolish, and Jesus, John the Baptist, the Disciples, and all the Church were false prophets to be mocked, disbelieved, and silenced.
I've read some of Jesus' prophecies and frankly many of them have not come true. Do we chuck them out due to the expiration date? Three thousand years is a long time. Surely, if He was speaking the truth they would have been fulfilled by now.
No one prophet or saint has the whole picture. We are told in scripture to judge the prophecy against the Word and the Holy Spirit of Truth to discern whether it be of God. And that's what I ask everyone who reads this - but you admittedly mocked it. You acted carnally based upon I don't know what. Denomination - I guess.
Wait, there it is..... "He denies the oneness of God. He denies the New Testament baptism for the Nicean Formula; thus alligning himself with the Roman Catholic Church in Baptism - the same RCC that he loves to take to task."
Do you know he believes in more than one God? Do you know he is false? What does the Bible say?
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Chirst is born of God: For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. {I John 2, 4, 5 }
I've read his books and heard him speak. He's a brother. The Spirit bears witness.
Do you still pay a mandatory 10% tithe established by the Nicean RCC? Do you still partake of the fear inspired curse if you don't pay?
Does denying scripture in this area abort you out of the Body of Christ? Does it make your entire witness false?
Has everything in the Book been revealed to you? Do you still operate in darkened understanding? Are you disqualified for doing so?
Of course not! Just because someone is not of _________ denomination does not mean they are lost. If anyone still believes that.... well, if you make it... you're in for a big surprise!
If all anyone continues to see is fear. If all anyone continues to see is hype. If all anyone continues to see is disbelief. Then that person is still asleep and will not have enough oil. Believe or disbelieve. Prepare or procrastinate. That's up to each individual. Hurricane Katrina was visibly on the radar, headed straight for New Orleans for four days. In spite of that, thousands still did not believe. All I am saying is:
WARNING! CALAMITIES ON THE RADAR HEADED FOR AMERICA! PREPARE YOURSELF!
Pray about it. Do an internet search. Read the book. Read the world. Add 2 + 2.
Do with it as you will.
Quote from: Jallen on March 16, 2009, 03:21:36 AM
Quote from: titushome on July 10, 2008, 02:56:51 PM
It is troubling. My hope is that if Americans will not turn back to God now, then perhaps the coming of judgment will cause us to turn back to Him. God's judgment often has that effect on a people.
The idea that America was ever a "Godly" nation is a myth; it's nostalgia for a time that never was (the same thing happened in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire). It's true that various Christian philosophies have lost ground to other foreign (mostly Eastern) philosophies in America, but aside from that there's nothing to turn back to. Don't forget, when this country was at it's "Godliest" they burned those who preached baptism in Jesus' Name at the stake. If you're talking about the 1800's and early 1900's, yes the country held (as a general rule) a higher moral standard, but so did the rest of the civilized world. After all, American's have aped the fashions of Europe since the country's inception.
I wasn't going to say anything because you weren't talking to me. However, I came across this short sermon synopsis today and it has information relating to such a foolishly ignorant jab at American History. While the overall theme relates to our continuing pending judgment; there are also historical links provided.
THE WATCHMEN, 911, AND THE HARBINGERSwww.stevequayle.com/News.alert/09_Global/090316.watchman.911.pdf
Folks, there are just too many true saints of God warning this country. When woven into the fabric of the obvious signs, only a fool would continue to listen to their pulpit scoffing at the fulfillment of prophetic Word. Take it to the Lord yourself. Hear what the Spirit is saying. God will talk to you. God will open eyes. God will reveal your place to be in this hour. That's what's important. Come out of Babylon and hear the true Word of the Lord.
Regardless of what others here might say or believe.... this is the time to prepare for tribulation such as the world has never seen. Especially here in America. It's coming. It's already at the door.
Stir yourselves from slumber and pray. Go into the closet and enter into the most holy place. Take your place in the Body to best succor the survivors. This nation will need both physical, emotional, and spiritual comfort. This is the time for the Church to shine with the glory of the Lord. Brace yourselves and prepare. You are needed in the coming hours.
QuoteI understand what you're saying. I even agree - to a point. Promoting fear never lasts. But if fear comes, it comes to those unsure and unprepared for the flood. Quite frankly, a good dose of fear can do wonders in bringing our flesh under subjection.
Remember God hath not given us the spirit of fear...... so why use that spirit to promote the kingdom?
QuoteSinners in the hand of an angry God. Warning of calamity brings repentance to the sincere. Ninevah comes to mind.
Sure, in a paganistic culture - a prophet shows up covered in whale puke, it got their attention. Today they shoot him full of thorzin and lock him up.
Quote
God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of a sound mind. That sound mind is the mind of Christ. Right now, the klaxon call is sounding; blaring out its warning. The sound mind of Christ understands that redemption draws nigh. The sound mind recognizes the glory that is to come, and the inummerable host redeemed out of this great tribulation; to the glory of the Lamb.
However, when fear dominates - there is no room for the sound mind.
QuoteI remember the 80's. In retrospect, I believe God was giving us a time of repentance; just as He did Ninevah. The book of Amos speaks of the mercy of God in delaying His judgment twice. America hasn't repented. This time is different. This is the 3rd day of Christ and the 7th day of Adam. It will happen.... this time.
Just as he did Ninevah?
Are you sure of that?
''Just as he did Ninevah?''
Why are Americans so arrogant that they assume that God is looking to punish them in particular?
Especially a nation that has taken it upon itself to propagate the gospel world wide?
QuotePeople do not stay because of their ground, not because of the net. It is with the heart that man believes and is saved, not with the mind. The same statistics hold true for those who come to God via addictions or depression or loneliness. Unless the heart is fallowed into good ground, the seed is choked out. Fear is not the only cause.
People do not stay because they came in for the wrong reasons..... when the fear goes away, they become complacent
QuoteTrue, no man knows the exact day or hour.... yet. Both Daniel and Revelation tell us the exact amount of time between point A and point B. Thus, if you find out when A begins (began), then B comes Xdays after that. Jesus repeatedly told us He would come on the 3rd Day - {just as God told us the ending is the 7th Day} - and gave warning signs for that time. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the conglomeration of all signs since 2001.
A very subjective time frame.
QuoteHas it brought fear? A certain amount. But it really brings a resolve and hope. Joyfullness and sorrow. For the kingdoms of this world are being brought down by the mountain made w/o hands. The earth is being prepared for the physical coming of the Kingdom of God. All things are being shaken that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Part of me hates to see the future I'd planned for myself to disappear, yet there is a joy in knowing what I've hoped for over the last 45yrs is coming to pass.
Bringing fear? God hath not given us the spirt of FEAR! Cannot use Fear it it is not given of God!
QuoteHe cannot come today for the fullness of time has not occurred. He cannot come until the end of the tribulation, which is at the early stages. Any discussion in 2059 will be past tense within the Kingdom. Scripturally, physically, and spiritually - this is it.
Disagree!
QuoteHow can recognizing the times revealed in the Word border false prophet behavior?
Not what I said: I have seen Wilkerson / Robertson / Falwell et all -> spew fort ''thus sayeth the Lord...'' many times in the past and nothing passeth.
QuoteDaniel told the exact date and time that Messiah would appear, centuries before it happened. All the people had to do was read the book.
I read Daniel, no exact date.
An exact date is Jun 05, 1926 or the 4th day of the 7th month 1 B.C. or the 14 th of the 5th year of the reigh of King (-----)
Quote. Why do you think they hung around the Temple where the newborns would come for circumcision?
Ya gotta be some where...
QuoteI've read some of Jesus' prophecies and frankly many of them have not come true. Do we chuck them out due to the expiration date? Three thousand years is a long time. Surely, if He was speaking the truth they would have been fulfilled by now.
So you are saying that the word of David Wilkerson = Jesus Christ?
???
QuoteNo one prophet or saint has the whole picture. We are told in scripture to judge the prophecy against the Word and the Holy Spirit of Truth to discern whether it be of God. And that's what I ask everyone who reads this - but you admittedly mocked it. You acted carnally based upon I don't know what. Denomination - I guess.
Oh, mock or disagree with you = carnal?
Bro: With college, law school and 25 plus years in the ministry, I promise you that I have been disagreed with many a number of people, it does not make them carnal, we each have our own opinions and our own views.
The future is a glass darkly, God did not mean for us to devine perfectly and exactly what will happen in the end times. We are told to be ready and wating.
Marvin Treece / Arlo Molenpaugh / Nate Haney / Ed Lucas / Irvin Baxter / S G Norris: all good men of GOD, each with a different take on the end times. Which one is carnal? Which one is not?
Our salvation is not based on prophecy, but Repentence / baptism / infilling.
QuoteWait, there it is..... "He denies the oneness of God. He denies the New Testament baptism for the Nicean Formula; thus alligning himself with the Roman Catholic Church in Baptism - the same RCC that he loves to take to task."
Do you know he believes in more than one God? Do you know he is false? What does the Bible say?
I know what the bible says, I also know what he preaches and teaches.
QuoteI've read his books and heard him speak. He's a brother. The Spirit bears witness.
I've read his books and he teaches another doctrine, not a bother and bearing a witness of not of God.
Quote
Do you still pay a mandatory 10% tithe established by the Nicean RCC? Do you still partake of the fear inspired curse if you don't pay?
Ah, one of those........
QuoteOf course not! Just because someone is not of _________ denomination does not mean they are lost. If anyone still believes that.... well, if you make it... you're in for a big surprise!
Who said denomination?
. All I am saying is:
Quote
WARNING! CALAMITIES ON THE RADAR HEADED FOR AMERICA! PREPARE YOURSELF!
Pray about it. Do an internet search. Read the book. Read the world. Add 2 + 2.
Do with it as you will.
One thing that you need to understand and you need to get:
Not everyone is going to agree with you, not everyone is going to accept what you say as Gospel truth.
That will not make them sinners, carnal or hellbound.
I read the bible, I teach bible prophecy, I study it and guess what... I don't see what you see and you don't see what I see.
Legend: blue = onli quote bold black = scott quote normal black = onli reply
I understand what you're saying. I even agree - to a point. Promoting fear never lasts. But if fear comes, it comes to those unsure and unprepared for the flood. Quite frankly, a good dose of fear can do wonders in bringing our flesh under subjection.
Remember God hath not given us the spirit of fear...... so why use that spirit to promote the kingdom?
Why preach of eternal hellfire and damnation? Can that not incite fear? Like I said: "if fear comes, it comes to those unsure and unprepared for the flood {judgment}."
{continued}
Sinners in the hand of an angry God. Warning of calamity brings repentance to the sincere. Ninevah comes to mind.
Sure, in a paganistic culture - a prophet shows up covered in whale puke, it got their attention. Today they shoot him full of thorzin and lock him up.
So, "godly America" has no need of repentance? Is our culture so holy? Aren't you trying to do the same thing on a verbal level?
God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of a sound mind. That sound mind is the mind of Christ. Right now, the klaxon call is sounding; blaring out its warning. The sound mind of Christ understands that redemption draws nigh. The sound mind recognizes the glory that is to come, and the innumerable host redeemed out of this great tribulation; to the glory of the Lamb.
However, when fear dominates - there is no room for the sound mind.
This is why Jesus repeatedly tells us "Fear not!" His Body is supposed to put on the mind of Christ and not use their natural one for discernment. Romans says to be not conformed to this world but be transformed byt the renewing of your mind that you might prove what is the good, perfect, and acceptable will of God. Fear should never dominate a saint of Jesus Christ.
I remember the 80's. In retrospect, I believe God was giving us a time of repentance; just as He did Nineveh. The book of Amos speaks of the mercy of God in delaying His judgment twice. America hasn't repented. This time is different. This is the 3rd day of Christ and the 7th day of Adam. It will happen.... this time.
Just as he did Nineveh? Are you sure of that? ''Just as he did Ninevah?''
Yes. Just as He did Nineveh. Jonah was told by the Lord Himself, that Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days. The nation repented and it was 150 yrs later that Jonah's prophecy came to pass. I believe America was shown mercy in the 80's and the time extended until now. Though it wasn't the entire nation that repented, it was possibly (and probably) the Church who cried out for mercy.
Why are Americans so arrogant that they assume that God is looking to punish them in particular? Especially a nation that has taken it upon itself to propagate the gospel world wide?
The topic title is: Are Americans Ready For Judgment? That's what we're focusing on – this particular country, America.
The arrogance comes from us being founded upon Biblical values and willingly submitting to the Creator. We have rightly proclaimed ourselves a Christian Nation and are known as such all over the world. We've sinned and know it. The fact we have propagated the gospel to the world – along with every other sin under the sun – simply intensifies the issue. Deep down, we know we're deserving of judgment, but don't want to admit a need to repent. Like Samson, we shake ourselves as before, not knowing the presence of God has lifted.
People do not stay because of their ground, not because of the net. It is with the heart that man believes and is saved, not with the mind. The same statistics hold true for those who come to God via addictions or depression or loneliness. Unless the heart is fallowed into good ground, the seed is choked out. Fear is not the only cause.
People do not stay because they came in for the wrong reasons..... when the fear goes away, they become complacent
Not necessarily. Jesus said the seed falls on 4 types of ground and only 1 of those reproduces itself. He also said that love grows cold. Paul says they fall away and believe a lie because they did not love truth. I don't recollect anywhere in scripture that mentions falling away because they came to Jesus for the wrong reasons. They might leave a congregation when the fear rubs off, but such are bad ground and the Word has no lasting effect.
True, no man knows the exact day or hour.... yet. Both Daniel and Revelation tell us the exact amount of time between point A and point B. Thus, if you find out when A begins (began), then B comes Xdays after that. Jesus repeatedly told us He would come on the 3rd Day - {just as God told us the ending is the 7th Day} - and gave warning signs for that time. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the conglomeration of all signs since 2001.
A very subjective time frame.
Of what good is a warning that has no basis of time frame? How can you have a last day in an infinite number of days? That's impossible. There has to be a finite number; a beginning and end, otherwise watching for signs is irrelevant. Read the gospels again. Repeatedly Jesus tells us when these things will be and what to look for – at the last day. Read Genesis creation story. God set the template of 7 days. According to Paul, the OT is a physical type of spiritual truth. According to the repeated patterns of scripture, there are only 7 days/7000 yrs and then eternity. Be a Berean and search it out.
Has it brought fear? A certain amount. But it really brings a resolve and hope. Joyfullness and sorrow. For the kingdoms of this world are being brought down by the mountain made w/o hands. The earth is being prepared for the physical coming of the Kingdom of God. All things are being shaken that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. Part of me hates to see the future I'd planned for myself to disappear, yet there is a joy in knowing what I've hoped for over the last 45yrs is coming to pass.
Bringing fear? God hath not given us the spirt of FEAR! Cannot use Fear it it is not given of God!
Do you honestly mean to tell me that you personally have never once felt fear over the things happening? Not even a twinge? When 911 occurred? Or when the stock market dropped & pensions were affected? Or when some banks shut down? Or when lay-offs circulated thru companies? None of those events sparked even a momentary fear in the flesh? I find that hard to believe.
Besides, there needs to be a holy fear of the Lord among His people. It is the world whose hearts are failing them for fear of the things coming upon the earth. His people are to have a sound mind.
He cannot come today for the fullness of time has not occurred. He cannot come until the end of the tribulation, which is at the early stages. Any discussion in 2059 will be past tense within the Kingdom. Scripturally, physically, and spiritually - this is it.
Disagree!
Acts 3:20,21 – And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since the world began.
Mt 24:29-31 – Immediately after the tribulation of those days.... shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another.
I Thes 4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump(et) of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
John 6:39,40,44,54: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24 – Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
There is absolutely no scriptural backing for the imminent return of Jesus Christ. Jesus himself repeatedly said it would be the last day when he returned from heaven; not at any unknown, unlooked for instantaneous moment over the last 2000 years. It is this error which has caused so much of the Church to not seriously look at all; much less be able to comprehend the true signs of the time. Disagree all you want. The Book says different.
{continued}
How can recognizing the times revealed in the Word border false prophet behavior?
Not what I said: I have seen Wilkerson / Robertson / Falwell et all -> spew fort ''thus sayeth the Lord...'' many times in the past and nothing passeth.
Let's see what you said: "But to try and predict and convince people that NOW is the time - that borders on false prophet behavior."
I gather this means anyone trying to sound the cry of the Bridegroom's coming NOW, rather than SOMEDAY - exhibits false prophet behavior. From your standpoint, that definitely means me.
You also said: "I've read many of Wilkerson's materials over the years, read some of his earlier prophecies and frankly they did not come true!"
I haven't read but a couple of Wilkerson's books, over the years. Frankly, at the time, their content was beyond my then level of understanding. I only studied what my denomination taught w/o seeking the Book. I no longer do that. Now I prove and disprove via the Bible. That changes everything. As far as Robertson and Falwell go..... we're not talking about them. They don't count in this discussion. At least, not yet.
Besides, I've heard many in the pulpit say: Thus sayeth the Lord!, and he never did either. I know little about any past prophecies other than the destruction coming to America. He wrote about that in the 80's, I believe. Again, just because it hasn't happened yet, does not mean it won't.
Daniel told the exact date and time that Messiah would appear, centuries before it happened. All the people had to do was read the book.
I read Daniel, no exact date. An exact date is Jun 05, 1926 or the 4th day of the 7th month 1 B.C. or the 14th of the 5th year of the reign of King (-----)
Daniel 9:25 - Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
If anyone really wanted to know the year this would happen, all that's needed is the date the command went forth. According to the Word of the Lord, four hundred and eighty three years later - Messiah would be revealed to Israel. King Artaxerxes issued this commandment in 445 B.C. 173,880 days later {32 A.D.} - Jesus presented himself as Messiah Prince by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. Sounds pretty exact to me.
Why do you think they hung around the Temple where the newborns would come for circumcision?
Ya gotta be some where...
Luke 2: And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And the angel said... for unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child. And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds. And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon...and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And he came by the Spirit into the temple:... and there was one Anna, a prophetess which departed not from the temple... and she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord.
Besides the Holy Ghost leading them to the temple at that precise moment; it is highly likely that the tale of the shepherds had reached even their ears. Again, being familiar with Daniel, it wouldn't be any stretch to look for him. Especially when Isaiah said a sign would be a virgin conceiving a son who was to be King over all Israel. They simply knew & recognized the seasons and the signs - just like we're to do.
I've read some of Jesus' prophecies and frankly many of them have not come true. Do we chuck them out due to the expiration date? Three thousand years is a long time. Surely, if He was speaking the truth they would have been fulfilled by now.
So you are saying that the word of David Wilkerson = Jesus Christ?
No. I'm saying that just because a prophecy being __X_ yrs old has not yet come to pass, does not invalidate the prophet or the prophecy.
No one prophet or saint has the whole picture. We are told in scripture to judge the prophecy against the Word and the Holy Spirit of Truth to discern whether it be of God. And that's what I ask everyone who reads this - but you admittedly mocked it. You acted carnally based upon I don't know what. Denomination - I guess.
Oh, mock or disagree with you = carnal? Bro: With college, law school and 25 plus years in the ministry, I promise you that I have been disagreed with many a number of people, it does not make them carnal, we each have our own opinions and our own views.
Not at all. I've repeatedly stated that all warnings, prophecies, etc need to be prayerfully considered and spiritually discerned against the Word of God. Your comments and attitude plainly show you have not done that. Disagree & mock me all you want. Just don't hide behind a prideful spiritual mask after making a carnal decision based on a pre-supposition. Balaam prophesied the truth in spite of himself. We are to try the spirit of the message, not pre-judge the messenger.
Our opinions and views do not matter when they conflict with Scripture. Your comments have been based upon tradition and denominal doctrine, and not scripture. We are one body, with one mind, and one truth: Jesus of Nazareth, the Word of God. There's more to the Body of Christ than any single denomination. Art thou a master of scripture and know not these things? {John 3:10 implied}
The future is a glass darkly, God did not mean for us to divine perfectly and exactly what will happen in the end times. We are told to be ready and waiting.
Really? Then why did he recite parable after parable after parable about his coming and the signs of the end of the age? Why did he command us to watch and pray that we be counted worthy to escape the punishment of sinners? Why did he tell us in Hosea that we would be forsaken 2 days, but brought to him the third? Why did he tell us his body would be buried for 2 days but rise the third? Why did he tell us the signs of his coming, when our redemption would draw nigh? Why did he seal Daniel's book until the end? Why would he tell Daniel that the wicked {to do or declare wrong} shall not understand? Why would he tell Daniel the wise would understand? Why did he admonish us to be wise and not foolish?
How can we be ready and waiting for an unknown day in infinity? How can we be ready if he just shows up out of the blue? If I knew you were coming Jesus, I'd have been ready. I thought you were coming tomorrow. Why didn't you let me know?
Is that the scenario you want to live by? He's not that way. He said I have no secrets from you. The Holy Ghost will reveal even what is to come. {John 16:13} The cry went out: Behold the Bridegroom cometh! Go ye out to meet him. God very much wants us to know when he comes.
Marvin Treece / Arlo Molenpaugh / Nate Haney / Ed Lucas / Irvin Baxter / S G Norris: all good men of GOD, each with a different take on the end times. Which one is carnal? Which one is not?
The one who teaches tradition and denominal doctrine that does not align with the scriptures is the carnal one.
To have a varied understanding of end times is simply looking thru a glass darkly. It is prophesying in part - part Spirit of God and spirit of man. All anyone can witness of is what they currently know. But each of us has to be open to the discerning of the Spirit, even if it means abandoning our religious concepts. To not do so, is to act carnally in rebellion against God. No matter whom you are.
Our salvation is not based on prophecy, but Repentence / baptism / infilling.
That's never been an issue. However, scripture says the sum of thy word is truth; and don't go beyond what is written. If we neglect rightly dividing the word by adding our opinions and viewpoints; we run the risk of being one of those whom the Lord told to depart, for they had worked iniquity. He said that to saved people; not to the lost. He will spew those same out of his mouth. It is important to come to an understanding of the end-time prophecies. Our salvation can depend upon it.
{continued}
Wait, there it is..... "He denies the oneness of God. He denies the New Testament baptism for the Nicean Formula; thus alligning himself with the Roman Catholic Church in Baptism - the same RCC that he loves to take to task."
Do you know he believes in more than one God? Do you know he is false? What does the Bible say?
I know what the bible says; I also know what he preaches and teaches.
I'm not sure you do. I think you can't - or won't - get past a self-applied label. The Bible says to judge no man by the flesh. Try the spirits to see if they are from God.
I've read his books and heard him speak. He's a brother. The Spirit bears witness.
I've read his books and he teaches another doctrine, not a brother and bearing a witness of not of God.
Really? Don't you mean: not my denominal doctrine? Jesus said anyone who does the will of God is his brother. {Mk 4} Jesus said the Father's will is that everyone that believes on the Son have everlasting life. {Jn 6} If Jesus calls him brother, then who are we - his body - to do less.
Do you still pay a mandatory 10% tithe established by the Nicean RCC? Do you still partake of the fear inspired curse if you don't pay?
Ah, one of those........
If by that, you mean: one who has actually taken the time and effort to search out every scripture reference in both the Old & New Testaments to see for myself.....
Then yeah, I am one of those.
If by that, you mean: one who hasn't actually taken the time and effort to search out every scripture reference in both the Old & New Testaments, but instead swallowed hook, line, and sinker the doctrine begun by the RCC several hundred years after Christ & the Apostles.....
Then no, I am not one of those.
According to the scriptures: tithing was an ordinance of Moses Law, commanded upon the farmers & ranchers only, in order to feed the Levite Priesthood. This is found strictly in the OT.
The NT introduced a new priesthood and abolished the old; nailing it to the cross of Calvary. {Eph 2:15, Col 2:14, Heb 7:12} We are to give cheerfully as the Spirit leads. There is no mandatory tithe for the Saints of Jesus Christ. Not one verse in the NT supports this. According to the Encyclopedia, it was Charlemagne who imposed tithing 700 yrs after Christ; the same RCC who distorted the godhead. Best to get the beam out of your own eye, and get the facts straight.
Of course not! Just because someone is not of _________ denomination does not mean they are lost. If anyone still believes that.... well, if you make it... you're in for a big surprise!
Who said denomination?
You did via implication.... "He denies the oneness of God. He denies the New Testament baptism for the Nicean Formula; thus aligning himself with the Roman Catholic Church in Baptism - the same RCC that he loves to take to task."
This entire discourse hasn't been about the content of the warnings, or their scriptural integrity. It hasn't been about what the Lord may be trying to tell us, or how fitly this corresponds to what the worldly experts are saying. This entire discourse has been about David Wilkerson's denominal stance. This entire discourse has been - again - turned into a oneness/trinity vendetta.
Is anyone other than me, astounded at this? All a self-confessed college graduate, lawyer, and 25 yr preacher can say is: He's not oneness and baptizes Trinitarian!
I'm stunned!
All I am saying is: WARNING! CALAMITIES ON THE RADAR HEADED FOR AMERICA! PREPARE YOURSELF!
Pray about it. Do an internet search. Read the book. Read the world. Add 2 + 2.
Do with it as you will.
One thing that you need to understand and you need to get:
Not everyone is going to agree with you, not everyone is going to accept what you say as Gospel truth.
That will not make them sinners, carnal or hellbound.
Oh, I get it. I do understand that. Not asking everyone to agree, nor blindly accept it as Gospel truth. All I ask is what I asked from the beginning. I ask what you apparently refused to do. I ask for consideration, prayer, checking veracity against the Word. I ask not to judge after the flesh, but after the Spirit. If we are led by the Spirit, we are the sons of God. Sons of God run everything thru the Spirit and the Word. If we do not do this, then we are being led by our carnal minds and become rebellious sinners, who will be Hell bound if we remain so.
I read the bible, I teach bible prophecy, I study it and guess what... I don't see what you see and you don't see what I see.
I know that. I study every day and see things I didn't yesterday. I learn things from others that I didn't understand before. It's called assembling ourselves. No one person or one denomination has it all. It's foolish to believe otherwise. I used to see what you see, until I read the Book w/o a prior agenda. It's amazing what it really says.
Ever thought about why sheep are clean but pigs aren't? Both have a cloven, divided hoof. What's the difference?
Well, sheep chew the cud. They slowly ingest their food, bringing it back up over a period of time. They rightly divide the Word {cloven hoof} and meditate upon it {chew the cud} gaining strength and growth. Sheep have to be led to feed. Sheep only listen to - and recognize - the voice of their shepherd.
Pigs never chew the cud. Pigs swallow anything and everything given to them. They have divided the Word somewhat, but never meditate upon it. They dig around and uproot morsels, finding treasures along the way. But they just gulp it down and look for more; running back and forth to the trough. Pigs will follow anyone who calls, as long as they feed what pleases them.
When Jesus {truth} came, the people were angry because he killed their pigs.
I don't want to be a pig again. I want to be a sheep. I want to recognize what the Great Shepherd feeds me, and contemplate it over and over for the nutrients. I don't want to blindly accept the provisions of pig-tenders who get upset at anyone who challenges their livelihood. I want to be led of the Spirit that I not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
I understand Scott. I understand all too well the battle between being a sheep and a pig. I understand it's easier for some to depend upon the pulpit rather than the Holy Spirit; to sit on past accomplishments and knowledge, manifesting little progression onward; and to limit ones' self to a small circle of Believers. I really do understand.
That's why this topic has been about warnings for the Body to prepare. It's been about chewing the cud of the Word in the field of current events. It's been about getting in order to follow the Shepherd to the safety of the sheepfold. It's been about reading the radar and seeing the storm coming to these shores.
All I've ever said was to brace yourself. Prepare for the judgment soon to come. Those who want to - will. Those who do not - won't. It's not up to me.
Do with it as you will.
{finished}
Way too many words to respond to them all...
too tired to night and fighting a cat allergy (just left a church get together and they had cats....) aaaaahhhh chooooooooooo
Hope you feel better. The pollen around here is going wild!
The pollen can be nuts here...but I am so allergic to cats. I was at a friend house for 3 hours and the cat really got to.
Anyway.....
You got carried away typing I cannot respond to it all..... :freaky2:
David Wilkerson: I read some of his writings on the Godhead and baptism - he is a ''titles'' baptizer. His work with drug addicts and gangs is amazing; however his Teen Challenge will not allow Apostolics to minister within their facilities. They want you to sign a doctrinal statement of faith, agreeing to Matt 28:19. We have one just 1 block from where I live and I cannot minister due to my Acts 2:38 beliefs.
'nuff said there
As for tithing: I pay my tithes, my minsters dues and offerings. Jesus has never failed me.
Prophecy teachings: Once upon a time we had to ban prophecy discussions at UPCI.COM and UPCI.WS because of the various beliefs and disagreements. In fact the most disturbing, rude and threatening emails I have received were because that I do not believe Post Trib.
okay enough for 2-nite..
ciao
QuoteSurely, if He was speaking the truth they would have been fulfilled by now.
:sing: AAAAAAAAmen!
Quote from: Scott on March 26, 2009, 12:10:26 AM
The pollen can be nuts here...but I am so allergic to cats. I was at a friend house for 3 hours and the cat really got to.
Anyway.....
You got carried away typing I cannot respond to it all..... :freaky2:
Ah... just answering. I am slow though. It took awhile. :teeth:
David Wilkerson: I read some of his writings on the Godhead and baptism - he is a ''titles'' baptizer. His work with drug addicts and gangs is amazing; however his Teen Challenge will not allow Apostolics to minister within their facilities. They want you to sign a doctrinal statement of faith, agreeing to Matt 28:19. We have one just 1 block from where I live and I cannot minister due to my Acts 2:38 beliefs.
'nuff said there
Sorry to hear that. It's a shame when religion gets in the way of brotherhood. On both sides of the door.
As for tithing: I pay my tithes, my minsters dues and offerings. Jesus has never failed me.
And He never will. I did notice though, the use of the word "pay". I'm not familiar with the scripture that says "pay" and it shall be "paid back" to you.
Prophecy teachings: Once upon a time we had to ban prophecy discussions at UPCI.COM and UPCI.WS because of the various beliefs and disagreements. In fact the most disturbing, rude and threatening emails I have received were because that I do not believe Post Trib.
I would never send anyone a threatening, rude, or disturbing e-mail over a difference of understanding. I do not see such things as negating or preventing brotherhood, {And by that, I mean members of the Body of Christ.} anymore than misunderstanding other facets of scripture. What did Paul say?
Till we all come into the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. {Eph 4:13-15}
We're all in this together. John said if we hate our brother, we are in darkness and not light. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. {I John 1 & 2}
We disagree about things. But I know you are my brother. I disagree with Wilkerson about things. But I know he is my brother. Nothing can ever change that.
okay enough for 2-nite..
ciao
Get some rest - brother.
Quote from: Tsalagi on March 26, 2009, 01:19:28 AM
QuoteSurely, if He was speaking the truth they would have been fulfilled by now.
:sing: AAAAAAAAmen!
Isa 66:22 - for as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make,......
Isa 66:23 - And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
Isa 66:24 - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesht.
Isa 65:17-25 - new heavens & new earth; Jerusalem a rejoicing; the voice of weeping not heard; child shall die one hundred years old; build houses and inhabit them; wolf & lamb feed together.
Isa 61:2 - ...and the day of vengeance of our God
Jer 50 & 51 - destruction/conquering of Babylon by a great northern army, burning her as Sodom and Gomorrah.
Zech 12:9-10 - And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seed to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. ... and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced
Zech 14:4 - And his feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives...
Rev 19:20 - and the beast was taken, and whth him the false prophet... these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10,12 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone... And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened... and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
I think that is enough to get the point across. :cool:
Since Wilkerson seems to be a trinitarian (I don't care what flavor or brand), I have to ask, Jerry: from which god did he get his warnings?
Quote from: OGIA on March 26, 2009, 10:14:11 PM
Since Wilkerson seems to be a trinitarian (I don't care what flavor or brand), I have to ask, Jerry: from which god did he get his warnings?
From the same one who sent John the Baptist.
But which one of the one? :smirk2:
Quote from: OGIA on March 27, 2009, 07:48:05 PM
But which one of the one? :smirk2:
Why don't you check the scriptures and tell us?
I only find one in the scriptures. But this Wilkerson fella apparently believes that this one contains more than one. So, the simple question is "which one of the one does he get his 'word' from"? Would you mind checking with him? I'm just curious is all. :)
Quote from: OGIA on March 28, 2009, 04:10:17 AM
I only find one in the scriptures. But this Wilkerson fella apparently believes that this one contains more than one. So, the simple question is "which one of the one does he get his 'word' from"? Would you mind checking with him? I'm just curious is all. :)
You're not curious John. Not in the least. No need to pretend.
I did check with the Lord, however. This is what He said about your "curiosity":
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Tim 2:23-26
Au contraire, Jerry. I am VERY ... yes, very ... curious and get more curious almost daily (to the point of burden, as I was just yesterday) as to "who" these "1 in 3" people are hearing from, giving honor to, speaking for, etc. That curiosity is peaked as I learn more about and come to realize that the truth that I and many others now refer to in the "Oneness of God" doctrine is the foundational truth by which all things, spoken or not, must be gauged.
You told Scott to "try the spirits". I suggest you do the same. The spirit of the trinitarian (I don't care what flavor) is antichrist, and so anything that person says I'd just as soon relegate to the dung hill. Sure, he may have some of it right, but, then again, he may not. Bottom line is the probability is high that he is not speaking from "God".
The messages you are posting from this man could be posted by any polytheist or Oneness adherent. We get your point. Just don't try to convince me that this Wilkerson guy is my brother or an oracle of God if He does not proclaim Jesus Christ and Him alone to be God.
And if he does, then his belief WILL lead him to obeying the Gospel. It is at a point after that when I will heed his "warnings" --- very generic warnings, most of which seem to attract attention as our local Shreveport "prophet" was doing here a few months back.
But, until then, he's just another voice muddling up the end of times and attracting folks who are blinded to the truth of the Oneness of God off into a ditch.
So, yeah .... I am curious, because any other doctrine makes me wonder just who they are hearing from. If you can't answer, so be it. But, keep your scriptures to yourself, particularly if you think questioning whether this guy adheres to the most important doctrine in scripture is "foolish and unlearned".... leading me to ask, "Which Lord is Jerry hearing from?"
I'm not going to argue with you John. We have this same discussion every conversation that arises. Go back and rehash prior posts over the last few years. I haven't changed my position.
Think what you want. Say what you want. Believe what you want. I no longer care. Take this as the last response you will get from me. I'm thru with you.
Paul wound up preferring Gentile believers to Jewish ones. I can understand why.
I'll take so-called Trinitarians over so-called Oneness Apostolics any day.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on March 28, 2009, 08:07:34 PM
I'll take so-called Trinitarians over so-called Oneness Apostolics any day.
I'm not surprised.
I don't know why you come on here posting "warnings" that
YOU FEEL everyone should heed just because
YOU agree with them/him/her. And when someone challenges the validity of your messenger, you get your feathers all ruffled. I know America is probably not much in the Lord's favor anymore, but don't post some trinitarian junk to try to prove it and expect me to listen to that person's "
word from God" anymore than I listen to his/her junk on the godhead. I've got enough work to do to "try the spirits" of those who have the godhead doctrine right. Why would I want to do the same with someone who doesn't have the simple message of the Oneness of God and, likely it seems, the new birth as not only an understanding but an experience?
I don't post much here anymore, Jerry, but I do check in from time to time. You and anyone else will most likely always here from me on matters like this. Matters little to me if you respond. These days, your responses only prove to me the reality of the slippery slope of deceit.
Jerry?
revelationist???
Ok. Perhaps the majority here feel as John does. {I'm not so sure, but that's my opinion.}
Surely the OP portion of the Body - or should I rather say,the only portion of the Body - is not isolated from current events? Surely someone perceives and bears witness of the time in which we have arrived?
Where then is any OP watchman crying out a warning?
Where is a list of preparation given from the Holy Ghost to them?
Who besides Irvin Baxter is saying anything beyond basic biblical doctrines?
Your guys aren't saying anything!
But portions of the other sheep are screaming at the top of their lungs! They're screaming along with tv news, newspapers, internet, movies, tv shows, the stars, the weather, the sun and the moon. The planet Earth itself is going nuts!
But some will not listen or even search the scripture to see if these things are so. Their excuse: That messenger is not oneness and baptizes trinity.
Overlook the fact that these same messengers have repented and been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb.
Overlook the fact that the ONE GOD filled them with the Holy Ghost. The same Holy Ghost given only to His redeemed children.
Overlook the fact that their message lines up with scripture and is easily tested via Prayer, Spirit, and Word.
Yeah, that'll hold up in court.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. No one has to believe any thing posted here. No one. I have posted these warnings because I truly wish to participate in some small way, warning the brethren. Scripture says: At midnight the cry went out; the Bridegroom comes! That's all I am trying to do - cry out.
And I'm a nobody. Not some big name or someone with a hidden agenda. But i am telling you all to prepare for what's coming upon this country. Coming very, very, soon. Not just here, but around the globe. That's all. Judgment begins at the House of God.
I promise you this: in the calamitous days to come, denomination will not matter. OP's will be in the same situation as the rest of the Body. And when the Lord chooses to send help/deliverance via a "trinitarian", I doubt it will be rejected. The time for childish bandying over perfect understanding will be over. Such denominal attachments will be moot. The Body will truly recognize itself in that time.
No, you don't have to listen. You don't have to consider anything. But I hope you do. I hope that at least one person will step back, take a good look, and go to the Lord to see if this is true. One person ask: Are we really that close? My preacher hasn't mentioned anything, but could he be unaware? One person consider: What do I need to do to prepare?
For the record - my pastor doesn't really believe me either. Neither does most of the ministry at our congregation. Some of the people might, but I haven't found them yet. Much of my family isn't sure. They want to, but it's alot to grasp. Easier to skate along, waiting for "someday but not today". A handful of christians at work believe. But that's about it.
That leaves the net. I've found some there, scattered around the world. Overall, the Church is asleep. Like the disciples in the dark hour before His arrest. Somehow, they couldn't be roused out of slumber.
So I'm not surprised at disbelief. Not in the least. That's why each of us have to do with it as we will. Like salvation, it is an individual choice. No one can believe for someone else.
I'm done. Events are escalating too fast to keep posted. Now you'll have to search for yourself.
Thanks Scott for not locking this topic. Thanks for not deleting it too.
I'm not going to argue with anyone over baptism or godhead, but I will discuss anything pertaining to topic.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to want a reaction that either meets or exceeds yours and are not content with a simple "You're right, Jerry", which I have given you. You also seem to think that because I reject your messenger that I am not about my Father's business. No, I am not out on the steet corners crying aloud, nor am I a watchman on a wall. If you want to be, go for it. My calling, as best I can tell at this time, is simple outreach to a neighborhood around our church. And, don't expect me to get all up in arms about the plight of the UPC, ALJC, PAW, UMC, SBC, etc, etc. I pray for those who have truth and those who don't. But, I don't go beating their doors down with the urgency of the Lord's return. Again, if that's your calling, go for it. I just hope you teach them the truth about salvation, because that stuff about being in the Body after repentance is not scriptural. But, I digress.............. ;)
And, you also want me to validate your messenger. Won't happen. :hi:
I don't care about denomination titles, I care about the basic tennents of salvation.
Quote
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Luke 24
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise[h] from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high."
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Paul further said:
Quote
Galatians 1
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ
If they are teaching a different doctrine, Paul calls them accursed and now I am supposed to accept their teaching? ? ? ?
Quote from: Scott on March 30, 2009, 11:06:42 PM
I don't care about denomination titles, I care about the basic tennents of salvation.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Luke 24
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise[h] from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high."
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Paul further said:
Galatians 1
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ
If they are teaching a different doctrine, Paul calls them accursed and now I am supposed to accept their teaching? ? ? ?
[/quote]
I told you. I'm not going to bandy or argue godhead/trinity at all. We have pages and pages chronicling our positions.
I will answer relating to topic.
If they are teaching a different doctrine, Paul calls them accursed and now I am supposed to accept their teaching? ? ? ? Paul calls anyone preaching
another gospel accursed; not another doctrine. Careful reference in Acts and Galations reveals the "another gospel" preached. Look at Acts 15:1 - And certain men which came down from Judaea
taught the brethren, and said,
Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. These men were Jewish christians who demanded an addition to the cross and faith in Jesus, in order to be saved.
Doctrine can be erroneous and lack clarity; or intentionally deceitful and designed to ensnare from the grace in Christ; yet still remain in the Body. The wheat grows with the tares. Pentcost is celebrated with leavened bread. That's why you have in the Church truth and falsehood; clarity and darkness; partial and perfected. It must all be baked in the fires of tribulation to become a holy offering acceptable unto the Lord.
I am not asking you or anyone else to accept all of their teaching. There is error in it. Just as there is error in "ours". But there is truth too. It is that truth we must be willing and able to receive. Like it or not - our Lord and King
has filled these men with the Holy Ghost. Our Lord and King,
has spoken to them concerning events soon to come. Our Lord and King
has given us warnings outside "our" circle. Our Lord and King
has graced His Body with dreams and visions in the last days.
Jesus said He had sheep that were not of this pasture. He was referring to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, scattered and intwined with the Gentiles. However, as a spiritual type, He was also referring to each of our "pastures". Each of our sheepfolds who might foolishly believe they alone are the entire flock. No matter how convinced we become over "our" exclusivity, there is always another pasture of His sheep. Always.
You can't determine brotherhood based upon doctrine. You can only determine brotherhood based upon the cross. Jesus said: my brethren are they who do the will of God. The will of God is for everyone to believe Jesus is the Messiah.
That is the line of demarcation separating darkness and light. Jesus said anyone who does that will be translated {born} out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, and receive the Holy Ghost - because they believed on the only begotten Son of God.
Again. Pray, search the Word, and make a decision. At the very least, stash it away somewhere and see what happens.
Quote
told you. I'm not going to bandy or argue godhead/trinity at all. We have pages and pages chronicling our positions.
I will answer relating to topic.
However for this topic to exist, we have to then accept or deny the teachings of men whose doctrine we disagree with.
I cannot discuss Wilkerson's ''prophecy'' because he teaches a false salvational doctrine.
QuoteIf they are teaching a different doctrine, Paul calls them accursed and now I am supposed to accept their teaching? ? ? ?
Paul calls anyone preaching another gospel accursed; not another doctrine. Careful reference in Acts and Galations reveals the "another gospel" preached. Look at Acts 15:1 - And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Another Gospel another doctine.. simply word play. There is one plan of salvation, one gospel, not many. That plan of salvation is what we refer to as the Acts 2:38 plan. The apostles Doctrine.
Paul was writing to the Galation church - they starting teaching something different. That applies today, if they start promoting or teaching a different they are as those in Galatia.... Accursed.
QuoteThat's why you have in the Church truth and falsehood; clarity and darkness; partial and perfected. It must all be baked in the fires of tribulation to become a holy offering acceptable unto the Lord.
However God will not use a teacher of False Doctrine to prophecy true doctrine.
QuoteI am not asking you or anyone else to accept all of their teaching.
Actually you are, you ask us to accept Wilkersons' prophecy...
Previously you asked us to accept
Gavin Finley MD - endtimepilgrim.org
tp://www.theamericannightmare.org/165_The_Great_Abyss_A-D.html
Economic Depression a Trial
Jim Robey - 10/02/08
www.mikeboldea.blogspot.com/
www.nnk-berlin.de <http://www.nnk-berlin.de> (english menu)
How many of these so called MEN OF GOD teach the Bible plan of salvation?
I cannot and will not accept any of their teaching as they have a false plan of salvation - especially when it comes to these ''so called messages from God''. If they are of God, why is he giving to men that teach false doctrines?
QuoteThere is error in it. Just as there is error in "ours"
Disagree - our doctrine is the bible plan of salvation. One Lord, One Faith ONE BAPTISM!
Quote. But there is truth too. It is that truth we must be willing and able to receive. Like it or not - our Lord and King has filled these men with the Holy Ghost. Our Lord and King, has spoken to them concerning events soon to come. Our Lord and King has given us warnings outside "our" circle. Our Lord and King has graced His Body with dreams and visions in the last days.
Where does the bible tell us to accept the teachings of men with false doctrine?
QuoteJesus said He had sheep that were not of this pasture. He was referring to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, scattered and intwined with the Gentiles. However, as a spiritual type, He was also referring to each of our "pastures". Each of our sheepfolds who might foolishly believe they alone are the entire flock. No matter how convinced we become over "our" exclusivity, there is always another pasture of His sheep. Always.
That tells us that the gospel is not just one person, but for all! All can be saved - all have the same chance to believe or disbelieve, this does not mean those who reject the truth.
QuoteYou can't determine brotherhood based upon doctrine. You can only determine brotherhood based upon the cross. Jesus said: my brethren are they who do the will of God. The will of God is for everyone to believe Jesus is the Messiah.
Sure you can, we are not to be unevenly yoked!
That is the line of demarcation separating darkness and light. Jesus said anyone who does that will be
Quotetranslated {born} out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, and receive the Holy Ghost - because they believed on the only begotten Son of God.
That doesn't mean we accept any doctrine. Remember the devils believe in Jesus, does that make THEM my brother?
QuoteAgain. Pray, search the Word, and make a decision. At the very least, stash it away somewhere and see what happens.
I pray
I search the word
I choose to believe the word of God and the apostles Doctrine.
Ok. Good comments.
If after years of trying to break through the erroneous concept that only oneness pentecostals make up the Body of Christ - it doesn't really make a difference what I reply to your posts. It doesn't really matter what anyone not of your denomination says. It won't be considered or believed.
'Nuff said.
Thank you for your time.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on April 01, 2009, 02:51:04 PM
Ok. Good comments.
If after years of trying to break through the erroneous concept that only oneness pentecostals make up the Body of Christ - it doesn't really make a difference what I reply to your how many times I have written on this here discussion thingie. It doesn't really matter what anyone not of your denomination says. It won't be considered or believed.
'Nuff said.
Thank you for your time.
Bro - its a battle you are fightin' thats for sure.
For us to accept some of your beliefs, we have to go against ours. For you to accept our beliefs, you have to go against yours. :frustrated: :frustrated: :frustrated: on both sides.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on April 01, 2009, 02:51:04 PM
your how many times I have written on this here discussion thingie.
:question: :question: :question:
Uh.... this has been altered.
I would never leave a reply so disrupted. It takes me too long to ponder and get the words right.
I also would never use the phrase - "discussion thingie"; especially in such a serious conclusion.
I generally keep copies but the one time I don't..... :o
It's part of an april fools joke one of the admin's pulled on the forum - certain words have had filters applied to them. Don't fret about it too much :)
We had some fun bro....
We worked a list of words that are normally used and did an auto censor....
It was quite funny and through out the day we just added additional words as people decided to have fun with it.
Quote from: CDAGeek on April 03, 2009, 07:14:50 AM
It's part of an april fools joke one of the admin's pulled on the forum - certain words have had filters applied to them. Don't fret about it too much :)
Posted on: April 03, 2009, 02:51:22 PMPosted by: Scott
Insert Quote
We had some fun bro....
We worked a list of words that are normally used and did an auto censor....
It was quite funny and through out the day we just added additional words as people decided to have fun with it.
Oh. That explains it.
Are you going to put the words back? There is a tendency to totally undo the thought and intent of a post.
Quote from: Scott on March 31, 2009, 11:10:16 PM
I cannot discuss Wilkerson's ''prophecy'' because he teaches a false salvational doctrine.
Do you also reject the writings of John Bunyan, Oswald Chambers, DL Moody, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Matthew Henry, Philip Yancey, et al, on such diverse subjects as God's love, prayer, pain and suffering, holiness, etc. - because the authors were trinitarian?
If not, is there not an inconsistent standard being applied here?
If so, then I pity you. What foolishness; what ignorance; what arrogance.
Quote from: titushome on April 10, 2009, 10:00:42 PM
Do you also reject the writings of John Bunyan, Oswald Chambers, DL Moody, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Matthew Henry, Philip Yancey, et al, on such diverse subjects as God's love, prayer, pain and suffering, holiness, etc. - because the authors were trinitarian?
If not, is there not an inconsistent standard being applied here?
If so, then I pity you. What foolishness; what ignorance; what arrogance.
Foolishness? Ignorance? Arrogance? Just because a person does not agree with or desire to look into the "words" of those who never had the light of the truth of the Oneness of God and/or salvation shine upon them? (Or, probably more correctly: those men/women who have had that light shine on them but reject it?)
Is it foolish, ignorant, and/or arrogant to even disagree with men of like precious faith -- those who profess to hold to the same doctrines I do? Is it foolish, ignorant, and/or arrogant if I chose not to read Bro. David Bernard's books (I only use his name because of his name recognition, but I could use many more) because I disagree with him on personal issues or because some fruit I see in his life does not line up with the word of God?
No, it is not, titus. I believe it would be a matter of choice, not inconsistency or foolishness or ignorance or arrogance. I could find a man or men whose lives do measure up to the word of God and forsake wasting time studying Bro. Bernard's writings if I chose not to agree with him.
Some men's fruit stinks more than others. From what I know about Wilkerson (in my limited reading and from personal information from others), he's just a bit off his rocker. Yep, that info could be wrong, but if it is I still see no loss in not giving him honor. But, I've not heard these things about some of the men you mentioned. Sure, they could have been looney, but I think history would have weeded them out by now. As is likely it will with Wilkerson.
The point is that there are men who I know agree with me on the doctrines I mentioned above whose "word" I take with a grain of salt or not at all. Why not so much more with those who never have professed to know the truth?
Choice; not foolishness, ignorance or arrogance. :great:
Quote from: titushome on April 10, 2009, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: Scott on March 31, 2009, 11:10:16 PM
I cannot discuss Wilkerson's ''prophecy'' because he teaches a false salvational doctrine.
Do you also reject the writings of John Bunyan, Oswald Chambers, DL Moody, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Matthew Henry, Philip Yancey, et al, on such diverse subjects as God's love, prayer, pain and suffering, holiness, etc. - because the authors were trinitarian?
If not, is there not an inconsistent standard being applied here?
If so, then I pity you. What foolishness; what ignorance; what arrogance.
ah
Now we go to the personal attack.
Shall I ban you, delete you or just consider that you are rude?
You see there is a difference between scholarly studies and claiming to be the oracle of God. There are many who know the world of God and yet deny the truth. The devils know the word of God, yet I don't accept that they are the oracle of God.
Quote from: Scott on April 11, 2009, 05:28:16 PM
Quote from: titushome on April 10, 2009, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: Scott on March 31, 2009, 11:10:16 PM
I cannot discuss Wilkerson's ''prophecy'' because he teaches a false salvational doctrine.
Do you also reject the writings of John Bunyan, Oswald Chambers, DL Moody, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Matthew Henry, Philip Yancey, et al, on such diverse subjects as God's love, prayer, pain and suffering, holiness, etc. - because the authors were trinitarian?
If not, is there not an inconsistent standard being applied here?
If so, then I pity you. What foolishness; what ignorance; what arrogance.
ah
Now we go to the personal attack.
Shall I ban you, delete you or just consider that you are rude?
You see there is a difference between scholarly studies and claiming to be the oracle of God. There are many who know the world of God and yet deny the truth. The devils know the word of God, yet I don't accept that they are the oracle of God.
Oh, doesn't sound too personal to me. No worse than what I'm called. :teeth:
Sounds more like an observation of a double-standard. The authors mentioned did consider/present themselves as Christian; translated into the kingdom of light by the blood of the Lamb. I'm pretty sure the Bible tells us
we all are holy vessels of God, speaking the will of the Father as the Spirit gives utterance. Scripture even says the Holy Ghost will speak of things to come. Sounds oraclely to me. {I did use that word. It was not unfunnily changed to alter the meaning}
Just consider it "persecution" and continue the conversation. Please. :grin:
Quote from: Scott on April 11, 2009, 05:28:16 PM
Quote from: titushome on April 10, 2009, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: Scott on March 31, 2009, 11:10:16 PM
I cannot discuss Wilkerson's ''prophecy'' because he teaches a false salvational doctrine.
Do you also reject the writings of John Bunyan, Oswald Chambers, DL Moody, CS Lewis, AW Tozer, Matthew Henry, Philip Yancey, et al, on such diverse subjects as God's love, prayer, pain and suffering, holiness, etc. - because the authors were trinitarian?
If not, is there not an inconsistent standard being applied here?
If so, then I pity you. What foolishness; what ignorance; what arrogance.
ah
Now we go to the personal attack.
Shall I ban you, delete you or just consider that you are rude?
You see there is a difference between scholarly studies and claiming to be the oracle of God. There are many who know the world of God and yet deny the truth. The devils know the word of God, yet I don't accept that they are the oracle of God.
My comments do not constitute a personal attack. I am stating my belief that to reject a man's writings out-of-hand because he is trinitarian is foolish, ignorant and arrogant. There is quite a bit we can learn from the authors I mentioned, and others, even though they fail(ed) to see God's "oneness" (as we call it).
I'm not a big fan of Wilkerson's writings either, although I much admire his work via Teen Challenge. But if I reject his writings it's because I disagree with what he's written - not simply because he is trinitarian.
Quote from: OGIA on April 11, 2009, 01:34:41 PM
Choice; not foolishness, ignorance or arrogance. :great:
See my reply to Scott, above. It is your choice, yes. But if it is your choice to reject some writings out-of-hand for the reason that the author is trinitarian, then your choice is foolish, ignorant and arrogant.
You apparently didn't read my post very well. No big deal. It ain't worth arguing over. I mean, it's not like it's doctrine or anything important. ;)
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on April 13, 2009, 01:14:32 AM
The authors mentioned did consider/present themselves as Christian; translated into the kingdom of light by the blood of the Lamb.
There were many in the days of the Lord's existence on earth that thought themselves to be Abraham's offspring, too. It's not what man thinks he is; it's what God thinks he is. I don't care how "enlightened" some of the men mentioned were, it does not make the children of God.
Quote from: titushome on April 13, 2009, 02:57:22 AM
There is quite a bit we can learn from the authors I mentioned, and others, even though they fail(ed) to see God's "oneness" (as we call it).
Quote from: titushome on April 13, 2009, 02:57:22 AM
I'm not a big fan of Wilkerson's writings either, although I much admire his work via Teen Challenge. But if I reject his writings it's because I disagree with what he's written - not simply because he is trinitarian.
I agree whole-heartedly.
There are numbers of oneness apostolic writers I disagree with as well. But that doesn't mean I reject everything they say because I believe they are mistaken/mislead on a some topics.
If I rejected books and sermons based on whether I agree 100% with someone's viewpoint... well, I don't think I'd have any authors or speakers left to listen to.
I attempt to take to heart the good I see/read/hear, and dismiss the other - not throw out the entire person and their works. *shrug*
My two cents... :)
Quote
My comments do not constitute a personal attack. I am stating my belief that to reject a man's writings out-of-hand because he is trinitarian is foolish, ignorant and arrogant. There is quite a bit we can learn from the authors I mentioned, and others, even though they fail(ed) to see God's "oneness" (as we call it).
When you direct those comments at someone, it becomes a personal attack. Please read the rules of this board. I give some leeway in these types of discussions for emotions, but not directed personal attacks.
:copcar:
Is there anything else that can be added to this thread?
If not I will lock it.
I will give it 72 hours.
:copcar:
i dont think there is...go ahead and lock it... :hypocrite:
There's alot that can be added. No need to lock it because it was once again changed into a oneness vs trinitarian thread.
Shoot man, we've finally gotten more than 2 people responding! I'm still waiting to see the lurkers give some honest insight on the topic's intention.
If you want to lock something out, then lock out that tired old "O vs T" stuff.
Can't we just once be brothers w/o sniping each other to pieces?
Can't we agree to disagree and have a real conversation, with real input that edifys and informs the Body?
I know we can. Please. Just once - overlook the messengers and see the message. Will anyone be mature enough to do that?
Scott, 2000 hits isn't just to see the same-ole-same-ole. Time for the people out there to participate. Don't let injured pride shut down intelligent discussion.
half those hits were prolly me just trying to get it off my unreads...lol
i personally dont like this thread...i think its sad that gp has started allowing ppl to cause others to question what they believe...when ppl start making oneness apostolics question their beliefs, well...its scary...
i know thats not what it was started for...but it always comes back to that
Quote from: *mesipie* on April 14, 2009, 04:38:09 AM
half those hits were prolly me just trying to get it off my unreads...lol
i personally dont like this thread...i think its sad that gp has started allowing ppl to cause others to question what they believe...when ppl start making oneness apostolics question their beliefs, well...its scary...
i know thats not what it was started for...but it always comes back to that
Yes it is scary. It's always scary to cast aside denominal teachings, personal beliefs, and doctrines in order to look into the Book to see what it really says. It's always scary to come to the conclusion that much of what we think and thought was "truth", turns out to be incomplete or wrong.
But that's what maturity does. That's what progression brings.
Every convert Jesus made while upon this earth; every Jew that followed and was martyred for Him; came out of a personal lifetime of "truth". Each of them had to walk the scary path of spiritual revelation, questioning their beliefs - both correct and incorrect, gaining some and losing others - in order to mature in Christ.
It always comes back to that because that's the purpose of the gospel. That's the purpose of the Body assembling itself - putting each other together - adding to one another in love and edification. That is the purpose of those with much making up for those with little, that the Body have no lack.
It comes back to that in an unhealthy/divisive way when the Body - or portions thereof - remain intent to focus only on their religions traditions, filtering all things thru that rather than the unleavened Word. Apostolics do not have a monopoly on this.
I know many here do not agree with me. That's fine. I know many here do not consider anyone other than "oneness" as belonging to Christ's Body. That's a personal perogative. But I still ask this question:
IF the information/warnings/etc are false due to the "trinitarian" messenger - WHERE are the true warnings/information/etc given to "oneness" messengers?I'm still waiting for postings of those we can discuss and evalutate. Not argue - evaluate. Just like the intention is to evaluate these.
But we can't do that because it always has to come back to "oneness vs trinity" since it's too scary to consider.
Personally, I hope you are scared. I hope you are shaken. Scared and shaken enough to allow the Holy Ghost to burn thru every misconception and partial understanding. Enough to allow the Holy Ghost to prepare you for the Time upon us. Not fear, but a fearful reverence of the things upon us.
Are we ready for judgement? I would say no. We're not ready for God to shake our foundations and beliefs in order to build upon the Rock. That's why it's scary.
This is an Apostolic Forum. Other teachings just are not going to be accepted.
*shrug*
You said it yourself, your own pastor doesn't accept what you teach and believe.
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
God said that He would send a strong delusion to they that dont receive the love of the truth...there are many ppl that have grown up apostolic, and have KNOWN THE TRUTH...but didnt embrace it..or maybe they were tricked by the enemy...and at some point the Lord sent them a strong delusion...im sad that this seems to have happened to some, but i personally rebuke the spirit that some of you are bringing into this forum...i think it is wrong, and is a sin, i dont want that delusion...i dont want to believe a lie and go to hell!!...i know that what i believe is THE truth...i have no question about that, but i pray to God that the things you say dont cause others to falter on their beliefs
delete it scott if i stepped over the line!...sorry if i did
I stand by the doctrine taught by the Apostle's, not some creed determined at the council in Nice.
Quote from: Scott on April 14, 2009, 11:15:37 PM
This is an Apostolic Forum. Other teachings just are not going to be accepted.
*shrug*
You said it yourself, your own pastor doesn't accept what you teach and believe.
Yes, this is an Apostolic
public forum. As such, it is subject to discussion of
all beliefs - including those not necessarily accepted by Apostolics. Experience has shown me that primarily Christians {believers/children of Jesus Christ} post here. Experience has shown that most are Apostolic in background.
Denominally speaking, I am Apostolic too. Believe in Acts 2:38 & Dt 6:4. Obeyed and practice both.
I just came to the realization that there is more to the Bible - and the Kingdom - than that.
I just came to the realization that the Body of Christ is lots bigger than I was taught.
I just came to the realization that the Holy Ghost is an abler teacher than any man.
I just wanted to share those realizations with those like me - Apostolics.
But apparently, most Apostolics can't get past their religion. Such are no different than most Baptists, Methodists, Assembly of God, Catholic, etc. That is where the struggle is - getting past religion and making the effort to "see" what the Bible really says about everything.
But you don't want to hear or consider anything outside of your doctrine and traditions and interpretations. Ok. That's your perogative. I will accept and honor that.
Quote from: Scott on April 14, 2009, 11:15:37 PM
*shrug*
You said it yourself, your own pastor doesn't accept what you teach and believe.
That's right. He doesn't. But you want to know why? I'll tell you.
He is just like you in many, many, ways. He is submerged in the doctrine and teachings of Man and finds
any challenge to personal, established beliefs too difficult to face. It is difficult to look at oneself and truly examine every thing you think you believe and compare it to Scripture with no pre-conceived conclusions.
It is difficult to realize that what you thought was "truth" is really not. It is difficult to face the reality that admitting being incorrect - for years - about traditionally accepted practices might result in loss of face, prestige, income, congregants, and friends. So it's easier to find fault with the messenger, rather than consider the message.
He doesn't believe me because I'm wrong. He doesn't believe me because I'm right. Just like so many Christians remaining in spiritual Babylon, the price is too high. To paraphrase an old movie - "He isn't ready to handle the truth".
Thus the continuance in traditional practices. Scripture refers to it in one place as "itching ears".
Quote from: *mesipie* on April 15, 2009, 01:28:39 AM
God said that He would send a strong delusion to they that dont receive the love of the truth...there are many ppl that have grown up apostolic, and have KNOWN THE TRUTH...but didnt embrace it..or maybe they were tricked by the enemy...and at some point the Lord sent them a strong delusion...im sad that this seems to have happened to some, but i personally rebuke the spirit that some of you are bringing into this forum...i think it is wrong, and is a sin, i dont want that delusion...i dont want to believe a lie and go to hell!!...i know that what i believe is THE truth...i have no question about that, but i pray to God that the things you say dont cause others to falter on their beliefs
Actually, God said strong delusion would be upon those
who had pleasure in unrighteousness. If you go back to the posts I've made over the years - even the posts in this particular topic - you will never find one instance I supported or encouraged unrighteousness. You will not find one instance in which I did not promote Jesus Christ and a deeper development in relationship with Him. You will not find one instance in which I claimed there is more than one God. You will not find one instance in which I discredited baptism in the name of Jesus.
Not one time. What you will find is challenges to the notion of only Apostolics being in the Body. What you will find is encouragement to consider the fact that God gives the Holy Ghost to others. What you will find is an ongoing cry to depend upon the Holy Ghost to bring understanding to scripture. What you will find is a demand to search the scriptures and see if all things are so; from the pulpit to the internet - be a good Berean.
I don't want anyone to be lost. I don't want them to remain unlearned either. There is a wealth of knowledge and instruction given by godly saints who aren't in the Apostolic denomination. Shame to see so many saints not use it because of traditional outlooks passed down generation after generation.
I'm still waiting on many questions to be answered. But I guess it is beyond the biblical ability of this denomination. That's why the pat response "They don't believe oneness and baptize trinitarian" is the catch-all solution.
I'm willing to answer for every word spoken here. Every stated comment. It's not about who's right or wrong per se. It's about what God is saying to the churches. It's about God warning His people of things to soon come. He is warning us. He is going to continue judging this nation in ways we've never seen. I just hope we all listen and prepare, because very soon denominations will not matter. The beast will be openly attacking the Body. Not just Apostolics, either.
Brace yourselves. Pray for direction in this hour. Pray for the Body to overcome. Pray to fulfill your part in Kingdom destiny.
Maranantha.
Quote from: SippinTea on April 13, 2009, 03:33:14 AM
Quote from: titushome on April 13, 2009, 02:57:22 AM
There is quite a bit we can learn from the authors I mentioned, and others, even though they fail(ed) to see God's "oneness" (as we call it).
Quote from: titushome on April 13, 2009, 02:57:22 AM
I'm not a big fan of Wilkerson's writings either, although I much admire his work via Teen Challenge. But if I reject his writings it's because I disagree with what he's written - not simply because he is trinitarian.
I agree whole-heartedly.
There are numbers of oneness apostolic writers I disagree with as well. But that doesn't mean I reject everything they say because I believe they are mistaken/mislead on a some topics.
If I rejected books and sermons based on whether I agree 100% with someone's viewpoint... well, I don't think I'd have any authors or speakers left to listen to.
I attempt to take to heart the good I see/read/hear, and dismiss the other - not throw out the entire person and their works. *shrug*
My two cents... :)
Thank you.
Jerry, you are as guilty of what you accuse others of as you claim the others are. You claim some new revelation about the Body and are irritated because people won't "heed" Wilkerson's "prophecy" (or whatever he calls it). Have you ever thought that others (me, in particular) don't want any of these new revelations you espouse? Don't you get it that, in my case, it's partly because I study with 2 men whose knowledge and revelation of the word of God are what I see to be leaps and bounds above yours? They don't believe what you do, nor do they heed the words of a man whose fruit has been a bit....well, fruity over the years.
Go ahead and let people into the Kindgom of God that you think the word of God does. Go ahead and heed Wilkerson's words. Go ahead and call Oneness doctrine/discussion tired, boring, old, etc. [God help me if I ever do!] Go ahead and continue to sit under a pastor you disagree with just so you can use him as your example of someone (supposedly) in authority over you who is not as "mature" as you and/or whose eyes are not as opened as yours.
No one is stopping you from carrying on. Just don't act like you are the "mature" one around here when your doctrine is obviously wrong nor expect what you post to be accepted as "gospel". You might just very well be the one being deceived, not everyone else. The bondage of one's beliefs is the strongest bondage known to man. And I don't know if anyone else has seen that happening to you over the years, but I feel like it has been.
But, then again, maybe it's me who is immature.
Or, maybe we're both still babies.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on April 15, 2009, 02:07:54 PM
Quote from: Scott on April 14, 2009, 11:15:37 PM
This is an Apostolic Forum. Other teachings just are not going to be accepted.
*shrug*
You said it yourself, your own pastor doesn't accept what you teach and believe.
Yes, this is an Apostolic public forum. As such, it is subject to discussion of all beliefs - including those not necessarily accepted by Apostolics. Experience has shown me that primarily Christians {believers/children of Jesus Christ} post here. Experience has shown that most are Apostolic in background.
Denominally speaking, I am Apostolic too. Believe in Acts 2:38 & Dt 6:4. Obeyed and practice both.
I just came to the realization that there is more to the Bible - and the Kingdom - than that.
I just came to the realization that the Body of Christ is lots bigger than I was taught.
I just came to the realization that the Holy Ghost is an abler teacher than any man.
I just wanted to share those realizations with those like me - Apostolics.
But apparently, most Apostolics can't get past their religion. Such are no different than most Baptists, Methodists, Assembly of God, Catholic, etc. That is where the struggle is - getting past religion and making the effort to "see" what the Bible really says about everything.
But you don't want to hear or consider anything outside of your doctrine and traditions and interpretations. Ok. That's your perogative. I will accept and honor that.
[/quote]
Actually this is
NOT a public forum. This is a private forum and each member is allowed in only up approval by the Admin. The topics in this forum are subject to the approval and good will of the staff of Godplace. We do not have to allow any specific discussion and in fact disallow certain topics.
Yes, we are primarily Apostolic / Pentecostals!
Yes, I believe that if God wanted to share a message with the world - it would come through an ''oracle'' that has obeyed his word. To come from an ''oracle'' that believes differently is akin to calling his word untrue.
Quote
He doesn't believe me because I'm wrong. He doesn't believe me because I'm right.
Is that what he told you? Or are you just assuming it because you just don't want to admit that you just might be wrong?
Quote
What you will find is challenges to the notion of only Apostolics being in the Body.
I don't care what they call themselves - there is only ONE plan of Salvation. They can call themselves Hindu Lutheran Buddhists - as long as they've abided by the biblical plan of salvation.
No matter what you say, we are not chaning our minds
Quote
I'm still waiting on many questions to be answered. But I guess it is beyond the biblical ability of this denomination. That's why the pat response "They don't believe oneness and baptize trinitarian" is the catch-all solution.
The ''pat response'' as you term it - is not a catch all solution, it is simply that there is one biblical plan of salvation, either folks follow it or they don't.
Jerry what you want is someone to re affirm that you are right and so far no one has affirmed that for you - obviously this is the wrong forum to gain that affirmation.
Let me just add something else for everyone.
I've been around the block a few times - having been in the ministry for many years and in many functions both pastoral and non pastoral. I've seen a lot of different doctrines and views come up and try to creep in to churches and the minds of the saints of God. I have found that the word of God is true and stands true. God is not wishy washy - he is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Whenever someone comes in with a ''different'' or ''new'' revelation, it needs to be consistant with the word of God or it is not of God.
All Roads do not lead to Heaven and sad to say there will be some mighty shocked people one day when the Lord returns for those who are alive and remain. Not all who call in the name of Jesus will be in heaven, some will have hearts that are not right with him. However - those who do make it will have one thing in common..the biblical plan of salvation.
The most common method that folks use to ''prove their point'' is to attack the UPCI (ALJC, PAW etc...) or accuse us of denominational prejudice due to standards, traditions and stubbornness.
If that does not work, the next step is to point the finger condemn and let folks that do not agree with you know that they are not as holy, not as attuned to the spirit and refusing to accept this new revelation.
The next step is name calling and insults and anger.
This discussion has run its course and it is obvious that this thread is simply an attempt to get us to believe and accept your new revelation, you had your opportunity and now it is time to move on to something else.
Have a great day.