Subsistencies?

[rootbeer]

I repeatedly asked someone for a definition of "person" in regard to their belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons, and this is what I received:

Person and personhood were used in concepts in the early Christian theological tradition, during the first centuries A.D. by the Church Fathers. The very concept of person (prosopon in Greek) was the result of a theological dispute, how God, according to the Christian (Orthodox) teaching, can be One and three at the same time. Further explication of the problem led to the formulation that there is one substance (or being) and three subsistences (hypostases): God Father, God Son and God Holy Spirit, but still just one God, not three. This theological concept of the person as something that has a specific identity and holds the fullness of being, was applied to the human being as well. The Church Fathers interpreted the "icon of God" in man as human ability to exist as a person, having his/her own unique identity in communion with other persons. Later in the West the concept was translated into Latin as persona and was explained by Boethius and St. Augustine as something characterized by rational capacities.[3]

This word, subsistencies, is something I have not previously encountered.  What do you think?  Is the Holy Spirit a subsistency?

[EricShane]

oh wow..

I think thats meddling with things that dont matter...

[Melody]

and that is how they got away from truth, by adding to the Word.  When God says He is one, that is exactly what He means.  I am a mother, daughter and my own identity reguardless of those relationships in my life.  That still does not make me some triad personhood.  It's a reflection of the different ways I interact with people and toward ideas. 

Same with God.  Sometimes He interacting with us as bottom line authority, Father of creation, sometimes He is interacting with us as a friend- a son of man- interceding between the unfanthomable vast greatness of God and us mere humans.  He is a Spirit, the very Spirit of Love in fact and this is where our minds are limited.  I walk into a room and you see me, my physical self.  Rarely will you discern my presence before my physicality.  Yet with God, he supercedes the basic physical.  How do we describe that?  Does it mean there is another personality to his being?  No, it's to articulate the actions of a God we cannot see, but the effects of which we can. 

And you could say that those relationships are inseparable but distinct.  However that still does not validate addressing the multiple ways I interact with separate "names" as the trinity would lead one to percieve the titles to be.  Trinitarianism produces a mentality that there is in fact 3 separate parties in which to interact with.  They are not simply calling God "Father" when He feels or they need a father figure, and Jesus when they need a friend.  And they percieve the Spirit to being yet another entity.

I can totally see there being so much discussion and exploration to try to understand and articulate what God is that men begin to try and fit God into what they can understand rather than waiting on understanding from His Spirit and conceding to His infinite depth.  If we focus on the 3, though there is also friend, teacher, etc. aspects of who God is, we get distracted from the incredible intimacty of our ONE relationship to Him.

[Robert Williams]

When Scripture states "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one!" (Shama Yisrael, Yahveh elohiym: Yahveh echad!) the words used for "God" and "one", both signify plurality, which usually makes Trinitarians cheer and Oneness people nervous, actions which are unwarranted on both accounts.

"Elohiym" (translated as "God" when speaking of the Creator and "gods" when referring to idols) is always in plural construct.  It's important to remember that the Hebrew language is quite different than English in many respects.  In English we can take a single subject (me, for instance) and assign and attribute numerous qualities and attributes to it (I am a son, a husband, an employee, etc.)  This is not gramattically correct in the Hebrew language.  If you have a "god" in Hebraic conceptual thinking, it has a single attribute (being a single entity).  If you take out your chisel and carve a big smiley face with buck teeth on your idol, it will forever retain that singular quality until you either change it or it is destroyed.  Objects with singular qualities can not be referred to as alive, and elaborate "mouth washing" ceremonies were conducted in dedicating idols to the gods they represented, in which any human participation in the idol's creation was renounced and the tools used in making it were sewn up in sheepskin with heavy rocks and thrown into the river (to remove all evidence that man had a part in creating the idol.)

In Scripture, it is evident that God has infinite qualities and characteristics: He is righteousness, Holiness, grace, judgment, passion, wrath, so on and so forth.  Therefore, in the Hebrew language, God must be referred to as a plurality.  It really has nothing to do with a Trinity (which in reality takes away from Who God is in diminishing Him to a triad).  In Genesis 1:26 and 28 the translators first wrote "let us make man in our own image" and then added confusion by following with "God made man in His own image".  It would have been better to stick with one or the other, and perfectly fine in an English translation to ascribe multiple characteristics to a single entity, but for some reason they didn't and have thus given rise to much heated debate. 

An accurate translation of "elohiym" into English (when speaking of the Creator) is "God, His majesties" (because there are infinite attributes and qualities about God that are deemed majestic).  The picture behind the word (which may aid in understanding) is of a finely cut, many-faceted jewel (such as a diamond). As the jewel is held up to the light and slowly turned, the light catches and reflects off each of the wonderfully designed facets, giving a continual appearance of wonder and beauty.  That's a picture of how we should behold our Creator, as He reveals to us the different attributes of His nature. God isn't so small that we can figure him out after a few years of living for Him, but a beautiful entity of awe and wonder that constantly reveals new (to us) and beautiful aspects of His nature to us as we stand before Him and behold Him (which really provides incentive on our part to spend time in His presence, don't you think?)

Shalom and God bless!
RW

[Robert Williams]

The other word used to describe God in Deut. 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one!" (Shama Yisrael, Yahveh elohiym: Yahveh echad!) is echad, which means "oneness through the twisting and binding of many". (again the Trinitarians cheer and the Oneness cringe)  Behind the concept of "echad" is the picture of a rope.  If you take a normal rope (not necessarily synthetic) and take it apart, you may be surprised to discover that all of the threads are not the same length and width.  Some may be several feet in length and as thick as twine, others may only be a quarte inch long and as thin as a hair.  Once a rope has been unravelled, you could probably group together several strands, give them a quick yank, and break them in two with little effort.  However, it is through the process of braiding a rope, as one takes the fibers together and begin to twist and bind them together against themselves that the rope derives its strength.  Consider the depth of meaning of "elohiym" (the infinite qualities of God) and imagine those infinite qualities as they are twisted and bound together in the deity that is our Creator and you begin to see the strength and power of God.  He is not only strong because He is a judge, but also because of His mercy; not only that He is Omnipresent (everywhere present), but twist that to His Omnipotence (all powerful) and bind that to His Omniscience (all knowing), and braid that to the fact that He is our Sustainer, Provider, Nourisher, etc... and an awesome picture of God emerges.  To bring it closer to home, within all of those mindblowing qualities is twisted a passionate and eager desire for each and every one of us!

There are several verbs in Hebrew that carry the picture of the rope (strength through twisting and binding).  Here is another one that has a direct correlation between the fact that God is "echad" and our relationship with Him.

Isaiah 40:31 is a very familiar verse, that speaks of us mounting up on wings as eagles, running without weariness, walking without fainting, etc... but it starts with a simple statement, "They that wait upon the LORD (Yahveh)..."  The word translated as "wait" is qavah, which signifies strength through the twisting and binding together.  Sound familiar?  It is directly connected to the echad (oneness) of God.  It is His desire for each one of us to live out our existence twisting and binding the threads of our lives to the threads which make up Who He is; it is the origin of our strength.

Shalom and God bless!
RW