Someone Please Explain to me

[EricShane]

hahahahaha!! that was my point. glad you got it!! does it matter who the message comes from? as long as the message is right, it is fine with me.

i did not go into the fullness of jehova's witness. i just posted history facts that were backed up with dictionaries, dates and events not a religious conversion to jehova's witness.

I'm sorry, I disagree.  Reckart and the Jehovah's Witnesses are both frequently in error.  Would you attend a Trinitarian church if you felt that 85% of the messages preached in their pulpits were in line with Bible?

So why use such a resource to validate your point?  Do you think that Benny Hinn is a valid resource? Because I consider your sources to be about as valid.

I dont agree with every preacher I hear... and probably only 85% no matter where your at, match up w/the bible... lol...

[EricShane]

okay, I am Pentecostal Holiness... Apostolics classify us as "Trinitarians" or "Trinity" - like some of our people classify them as "Jesus Onlys" - Growing up I 'never' heard the words 'trinity' or anything till I met some apostolics at school, and they said I was trinity and i was like "No Im Not!" lol... I had never heard of that, so appearantly... it must be an apostolic word they have made up for us... and I can Boldly say, I have NEVER in my life, met a person that believes in Three Gods, or anything like that at all... - We Believe God is the Father, and Jesus is his son (manifest in the flesh) and the Holyghost is the spirit of God, we believe all three manifest Differently, but all these three are one... - We believe thier different and the same... if that makes sense - However, we baptise the way Jesus said to in the name of the Father Son and the Holyghost.

[yosemite]

i also have jason dulle in my history archives but avoided posting him in my last posts to prove a point.

- We believe thier different and the same... if that makes sense - However, we baptise the way Jesus said to in the name of the Father Son and the Holyghost.

and this may be the reason yall are classified as being trinity!! name one who was baptised in this manner after acts2:38. remember the 12 in acts who had to be re-baptised?

[bishopnl]

the bible is its own source and if ya dont line up, your in err. history on the other hand is across the board. if man knows anything it would be the history of men-(not of MAN -creation). would i sit in on a trinitarian church? no. that does not mean that i cant research history of men through whomever i chose.

that is why i have so many sources of history!! i search them all!! most line up great some faulter. regardless, all tell me the same thing about trinity!!  all men are subject to err! that is why i want two or more witnesses. tada!!

OK.  Use whatever sources you like. 

And I'll ignore them b/c I think your sources are contradictory and not credible. 

I dont agree with every preacher I hear... and probably only 85% no matter where your at, match up w/the bible... lol...

If 15% of teaching is at odds with scripture, I wouldn't stay for the other 85%.  We're not talking a few minor differences in opinion.  I don't listen to (x) percentage of truth that comes from Reckart or the JW's, because there is a substantial percentage that is blatantly at odds with scripture.  Period.

IF the argument here is that sources no longer matter, you'd be hard pressed to find one academic or scholar who would agree. 

[yosemite]

the bible is its own source and if ya dont line up, your in err. history on the other hand is across the board. if man knows anything it would be the history of men-(not of MAN -creation). would i sit in on a trinitarian church? no. that does not mean that i cant research history of men through whomever i chose.

that is why i have so many sources of history!! i search them all!! most line up great some faulter. regardless, all tell me the same thing about trinity!!  all men are subject to err! that is why i want two or more witnesses. tada!!

OK.  Use whatever sources you like. 

And I'll ignore them b/c I think your sources are contradictory and not credible. 

I dont agree with every preacher I hear... and probably only 85% no matter where your at, match up w/the bible... lol...

If 15% of teaching is at odds with scripture, I wouldn't stay for the other 85%.  We're not talking a few minor differences in opinion.  I don't listen to (x) percentage of truth that comes from Reckart or the JW's, because there is a substantial percentage that is blatantly at odds with scripture.  Period.

IF the argument here is that sources no longer matter, you'd be hard pressed to find one academic or scholar who would agree. 

if you want to disregard history, that is your choice! i for one will stay with history no matter the source for what i have found is a general acknowledgement that certain things have happened at certain time no matter who done the research.
in history as well as the bible you have to have witnesses. in this case all agree to the conclusion i was making and has no bearing on the source.

now back to my question without regard to source. was what i posted wrong in its content. do you beleive the events around the trinity actually happened? or are you only up for bebate (stirring the pot so to speak).

besides the sources i used did not contrsdict one another in context of history, just religion, in which i did not get into. i just went to the history side of what each have produced.

[bishopnl]

Yo:

Here is just one quick "contradiction" between your two sources.

Reckart says:  "Few realize that the trinity doctrine that was adopted at the Council of Nicaea..."

While the JW says:  "None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity"

Further, Reckart's article is almost completely unsourced, which should eliminate it as a serious scholarly source.

I'm not disregarding history.  I am a history major.  I do contend that just because someone throws out a fact every now and then doesn't make them an expert...especially when it is a FACT that they are teaching false doctrine.  Using JW as a primary source regarding the Trinity is like Iran criticizing North Korea for it's nuclear weapons program.

I'm sorry, but I won't take Reckart's word for ANYTHING.  He is correct in some of his particulars, but so what?  When setting about to teach what you see as an Apostolic truth, why would you disregard more scholarly (and more Christlike) sources in favor of sites that teach false or perverted doctrine? 

[yosemite]

Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site
Should You Believe in the Trinity?
How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop? 
AT THIS point you might ask: 'If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom?' Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.
That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.

both of my soures have agreed to this point. the doctrine is not what i was after but the history, in which i gave two examples of the broad board that seem to have come up with the same thing.hmmmmm! remember what i said about two or more witnesses!

[OGIA]

I find this topic very confusing sometimes, and it frustrates me.

Somnic:

First off, welcome to GP!  

Secondly, and with tears in my eyes, I can tell you that coming to the understanding of what we refer to as the "oneness of God" is the most incredible experiences and revelations you will ever have.  I remember the first time I really "saw" how ONE God is!!  I about did cartwheels down the hall of my house!!!    And always remember that it comes "line upon line, precept upon precept" and will likely continue your whole lifetime; for only when we see Him face to face will we then know Him as He knows us.  

I say the above to say: don't let the confusion beat you or get to you to where you give up studying about and seeking revelation from God about not only "what" He is (Father, Son, HS, healer, provider, redeemer, etc), but "WHO" He is (Jesus Christ).  There are times these days that I still read passages and say "I just don't get it", but then I get a picture of the most absolute truth of God's word -- "....the Lord is One" --- and WHO embodies that One God, and the confusion disappears as I see the One who was born in a manger and who died for me being the same One who said "Let there be light!".  And, I don't always get the revelation of whatever is baffling me, but I know that if He wants me to see it and I am seeking the answer that He will provide it according to His will and purpose.

Learn about the basics of Oneness.  As bishopnl said, David Bernard's books are good.  Jason Dulle's writings have kept me company many nights, too!   :grin:  Learn about the development of the trinity and what "true" trinitarianism teaches.  Maybe most importantly -- give GOD time.  He won't force feed you and has a plan to reveal incredible truths to you over time, as long as you keep seeking.

God bless you on your journey!  And be sure to let us know when He gives you those "WOW!" moments in the future!!!  

[bishopnl]

both of my soures have agreed to this point.

One says Nicea established a trinitarian doctrine, one says it didn't.

I'm not going to waste time arguing with you over your source material.  I recommend for serious pursuit of truth, that one avoid both Reckart and the Jehovah's Witnesses.  I admit that it's disturbing that in one's haste to "refute" Trinitarian doctrine, someone would use such sources, but that's your perogative.

I agree with OGIA in that Somnic should continue to seek truth, and in that search, prayerfully consider the source of information.  Turning to one false doctrine to disprove another is the blind leading the blind.  They both fall into a ditch.

[yosemite]

reading ogia's post kinda gave me a wow moment. wish we could stay on the topic at hand and not go through this sources deal.

as a matter of fact i dont want to be a part of the pot stirring.

[yosemite]

both of my soures have agreed to this point.

One says Nicea established a trinitarian doctrine, one says it didn't.

I'm not going to waste time arguing with you over your source material.  I recommend for serious pursuit of truth, that one avoid both Reckart and the Jehovah's Witnesses.  I admit that it's disturbing that in one's haste to "refute" Trinitarian doctrine, someone would use such sources, but that's your perogative.

I agree with OGIA in that Somnic should continue to seek truth, and in that search, prayerfully consider the source of information.  Turning to one false doctrine to disprove another is the blind leading the blind.  They both fall into a ditch.

i have repeatedly asked to get back to subject and you have refused and now you say i'm blind leading the blind when i have asked what was wrong in my post time after time. you have never yet said what was wrong just gave some college history thing like that makes you superior to the subject. you havent even read to see what you were talking of when you gave an example, you just threw something down. i have also continually said i was not in search of doctrine but history!     ha! done

[bishopnl]

Ok, Yo.  I'm not in the mood to argue with you about it.  It disturbs me, but so does 90% of what I read on forums that are labeled Apostolic, so that's nothing new.

[yosemite]

hahahaha! you mean to tell me you remain when there is ten percent lacking. LOLhahahaha

[bishopnl]

That's because I pity some of you. 

[Rae]

Nate.. I'll enjoy reading your replies again! haha

[Somnic]

I find this topic very confusing sometimes, and it frustrates me.

Somnic:

First off, welcome to GP!  

Secondly, and with tears in my eyes, I can tell you that coming to the understanding of what we refer to as the "oneness of God" is the most incredible experiences and revelations you will ever have.  I remember the first time I really "saw" how ONE God is!!  I about did cartwheels down the hall of my house!!!    And always remember that it comes "line upon line, precept upon precept" and will likely continue your whole lifetime; for only when we see Him face to face will we then know Him as He knows us.  

I say the above to say: don't let the confusion beat you or get to you to where you give up studying about and seeking revelation from God about not only "what" He is (Father, Son, HS, healer, provider, redeemer, etc), but "WHO" He is (Jesus Christ).  There are times these days that I still read passages and say "I just don't get it", but then I get a picture of the most absolute truth of God's word -- "....the Lord is One" --- and WHO embodies that One God, and the confusion disappears as I see the One who was born in a manger and who died for me being the same One who said "Let there be light!".  And, I don't always get the revelation of whatever is baffling me, but I know that if He wants me to see it and I am seeking the answer that He will provide it according to His will and purpose.

Learn about the basics of Oneness.  As bishopnl said, David Bernard's books are good.  Jason Dulle's writings have kept me company many nights, too!   :grin:  Learn about the development of the trinity and what "true" trinitarianism teaches.  Maybe most importantly -- give GOD time.  He won't force feed you and has a plan to reveal incredible truths to you over time, as long as you keep seeking.

God bless you on your journey!  And be sure to let us know when He gives you those "WOW!" moments in the future!!!  

Well I believe in "Oneness" and always will, and I do have a WOW moment to tell you about.  The night of the day I recieved the Holy Ghost, I was reading the bible.  While reading it I recieved three visions.  Each one was the same.  It was me standing on a pullpit preaching to my church.  I know that god has a plan for me and I am seeking that path.  But part of that is learning what is what and studying the bible.  I made this thread to better understand the "Trinity".  I didn't make this thread so two people could agrue over who has better resources.

If what Yo posted is false doctrine, then please post the right one so I may continue on with my studies and knowledge of the "Truth".  I came here because I thought it might be easier to get, i dunno, maybe a few links to point me in the right direction, or a few authors I should read up on.

Yo and bishonl, I believe we are all supposed to be united in one belief.  We are not here to argue amongst eachother.  Settle your differences in PMs because I really don't want to read you two agruing over who is right and who is wrong.  I seek Truth, not drama.

[EricShane]

I find this topic very confusing sometimes, and it frustrates me.

Somnic:

First off, welcome to GP!  

Secondly, and with tears in my eyes, I can tell you that coming to the understanding of what we refer to as the "oneness of God" is the most incredible experiences and revelations you will ever have.  I remember the first time I really "saw" how ONE God is!!  I about did cartwheels down the hall of my house!!!    And always remember that it comes "line upon line, precept upon precept" and will likely continue your whole lifetime; for only when we see Him face to face will we then know Him as He knows us.  

I say the above to say: don't let the confusion beat you or get to you to where you give up studying about and seeking revelation from God about not only "what" He is (Father, Son, HS, healer, provider, redeemer, etc), but "WHO" He is (Jesus Christ).  There are times these days that I still read passages and say "I just don't get it", but then I get a picture of the most absolute truth of God's word -- "....the Lord is One" --- and WHO embodies that One God, and the confusion disappears as I see the One who was born in a manger and who died for me being the same One who said "Let there be light!".  And, I don't always get the revelation of whatever is baffling me, but I know that if He wants me to see it and I am seeking the answer that He will provide it according to His will and purpose.

Learn about the basics of Oneness.  As bishopnl said, David Bernard's books are good.  Jason Dulle's writings have kept me company many nights, too!   :grin:  Learn about the development of the trinity and what "true" trinitarianism teaches.  Maybe most importantly -- give GOD time.  He won't force feed you and has a plan to reveal incredible truths to you over time, as long as you keep seeking.

God bless you on your journey!  And be sure to let us know when He gives you those "WOW!" moments in the future!!!  

Well I believe in "Oneness" and always will, and I do have a WOW moment to tell you about.  The night of the day I recieved the Holy Ghost, I was reading the bible.  While reading it I recieved three visions.  Each one was the same.  It was me standing on a pullpit preaching to my church.  I know that god has a plan for me and I am seeking that path.  But part of that is learning what is what and studying the bible.  I made this thread to better understand the "Trinity".  I didn't make this thread so two people could agrue over who has better resources.

If what Yo posted is false doctrine, then please post the right one so I may continue on with my studies and knowledge of the "Truth".  I came here because I thought it might be easier to get, i dunno, maybe a few links to point me in the right direction, or a few authors I should read up on.

Yo and bishonl, I believe we are all supposed to be united in one belief.  We are not here to argue amongst eachother.  Settle your differences in PMs because I really don't want to read you two agruing over who is right and who is wrong.  I seek Truth, not drama.

amen For real - parties involved please PM each other... understanding Trinity/Oneness stuff is hard enough to comprehend or understand than to have people bickering about how what they believe is better...

and back to Trinity beliefs...

I dont understand, oneness nor trinity... - I told Elona recently I believe in Oneness and Trinity... Im somewhere in the middle... I believe in both, so pray to one and a half Gods I guess... lol...

a true story : When I was very young, and didnt understand anything... I didnt know 'who' to pray to... Jesus or God, so I would pray "Dear Jesus, Or God... Whichever one of you can hear me..." lol... Now that im Older its even worse... "Dear Jesus, God, Yeshuaw, Jehova, and Etc." - lol... But the good thing is, that God knows the Intents of the Heart, God sees the heart and knows when a person is sincere - I could be Wrong for believing Jesus is Gods son... I could be led astray by some false Doctrine and Die lost... Same way with oneness... I dont know... I pray things out for myself, I dont take into consideration what other people have to say... I seek it out myself... and in the end, all I find is "I love Jesus, God and all of the above"

[Somnic]

Jesus is Gods son, in flesh.  But God is Jesus also in manifest.  You see, Jesus plays two roles.  The "Son" in "flesh" and the "Father" in "Spirit".  I can understand how it can be confusing.  There are several scriptures that tell you that Jesus is God.  I will list two below.  There are more, but these two I know right off hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;...

[EricShane]

Jesus is Gods son, in flesh.  But God is Jesus also in manifest.  You see, Jesus plays two roles.  The "Son" in "flesh" and the "Father" in "Spirit".  I can understand how it can be confusing.  There are several scriptures that tell you that Jesus is God.  I will list two below.  There are more, but these two I know right off hand.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;...

exactly! - But, does that mean... everyone is Pure In heart? because Every eye shall behold Jesus but only the pure in heart shall see God... - or does it mean, only the pure in heart will see God, in Jesus... or something... I duno... its all confusing...

[Somnic]

Sometimes the bible says something that is a medafore for something and other times its to be read as it is.  In this case its not a medafore.  Its to be taken as it says.

[Niki]

The Bible says that we are to do all things in His name. So when you pray, just say "Jesus" and you've said it all. The fullness of the godhead is in Jesus. It's all in Him.

The next shoe to drop is to inhibit the human mind from examining the theory, by claiming no one can understand it, it must be accepted by faith.

This reminded me of something I was thinking about today. It was in response to how confused people are when it comes to the godhead, who the Father is, who Jesus is, etc. (If the Holy Ghost is the father of Jesus, as it says in Matthew, and Jesus is the father of creation and the heavenly Father, what is the Father the father of? Seems like there's nothing left for Him to be the father of. Unless He's the father of the Holy Ghost, which would make Him Jesus' grandfather. lol) My thought was that if it's in the Bible it's meant for us to understand, otherwise it wouldn't be in the Bible at all. I understand that some are too carnal or blind to see it. Perhaps lack of sincerity. Who knows? But the truth can and will be revealed to any and all who sincerely hunger for it.

Sorry. I don't really have much to add at the moment to the whole explanation-of-the-trinity thing. Who could understand such nonsense anyway? I've read the Athanasian Creed (seems like I've still got it in a box somewhere) and it doesn't make a lick of sense.

[OGIA]

I do have a WOW moment to tell you about.  The night of the day I recieved the Holy Ghost, I was reading the bible.  While reading it I recieved three visions.  Each one was the same.  It was me standing on a pullpit preaching to my church.  I know that god has a plan for me and I am seeking that path.  But part of that is learning what is what and studying the bible.

So true! I pray the diligence of your search will produce much fruit for God's Kingdom!!

I didn't make this thread so two people could agrue over who has better resources.

Well, that's the nature of internet forums....even Christian ones.  I've done it (gotten off topic and argued) and will probably do it again.  You gotta learn (I'm still learning) to ignore some stuff and tolerate other stuff. 

I made this thread to better understand the "Trinity".

I came here because I thought it might be easier to get, i dunno, maybe a few links to point me in the right direction, or a few authors I should read up on.

Bishopnl gave two wonderful links.  Did you get to look at them?  Also, Bro. David Bernard's book "The Oneness of God" is online: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/one-Top.htm

Those three resources should keep you busy for a while.  Plus, God will open other doors as you keep studying.  Check with your pastor and see what books and resources he has and suggests, too (maybe first?).  God bless!

[bishopnl]

Bishopnl gave two wonderful links.  Did you get to look at them?  Also, Bro. David Bernard's book "The Oneness of God" is online: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/one-Top.htm

Thank you.  Internet discussion forums are about discussion.  My contribution is that I don't feel it's wise to go to places like the official website of the Jehovah's Witnesses for a better understanding of the Trinity.  You might find some truth there--but you are also going to find a lot of error.  Thus, I posted links that are what I feel are better sites that won't compound confusion.

And while on that note, I'm going to state something clearly.  Discussion forums are for discussion.  Not everyone here is always going to agree.  I don't always take part in the Bible discussion forum, although I do read in here frequently.  But it gets tiresome to constantly read people bemoaning back and forth discussion that occurs on some of these threads--and I refer not just to this thread, but all the threads in general.  People may not always agree with you, but that doesn't mean that they are just "quibbling" while you are "defending the truth" or whatever.  As OGIA said...if you find some discussion unhelpful, ignore it. 

[titushome]

My contribution is that I don't feel it's wise to go to places like the official website of the Jehovah's Witnesses for a better understanding of the Trinity.

The fact of the matter is, someone who is looking for Truth will find it no matter where you look - even in material prepared by Jehovah's Witnesses, or Mormons, even Muslims or Buddhists!

I once read a "Christian" book, the premise of which is that Christians ought to watch popular movies, seek out the threads of Truth therein, then use that knowledge to witness to their non-Christian friends who have seen the same movies.  Problem is, most of the movies the book offered as examples were horrible - full of all kinds of garbage people of God do not need to watch.

My point is this: it's far better to seek pure Truth.  If we have to wade through falsehoods and filth in order to obtain the nuggets of Truth, then we're wasting our time.

[bishopnl]

My point is this: it's far better to seek pure Truth.  If we have to wade through falsehoods and filth in order to obtain the nuggets of Truth, then we're wasting our time.

That's all I was trying to say.  Thank you for stating it much better than I could have.  It's not anything personal.  We all want Truth!