ARE AMERICANS READY FOR JUDGMENT?

[titushome]

1.  Pastor as "sovereign" head:

Regarding most of what you posted, I thoroughly agree; I think perhaps we agree more than we know, but are approaching the issue from different perspectives.

I do have some disagreement, though, with just a couple of your final statements in this post.

While I have certainly read your comments questioning the pastor's authority in regard to vision-casting (modern day groupspeak referring to planning for the growth of the church), baptizing, their "special relationship with God", etc. - these are individual issues that really have to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

Here, perhaps, is where our viewpoints differ most.  While you believe these abuses of authority are "individual issues," non-related events that must be "looked at" and dealt with "on a case-by-case basis," I believe they are deeply related symptoms of the same root problem: namely, that the role of the pastor in the Church today in many ways goes far beyond what the Lord intends, or has laid out in the Scriptures.

I will briefly comment that some pastors establish "rules" for their local assembly, which is certainly within the bounds of their pastoral authority in a corporate setting. 

This is one strong example of what I just described above.  On what Scripture is this teaching founded?  That is, the teaching that pastors have been given authority by God to "establish rules" for their local assembly.  Preach, teach, offer guidance, etc.?  Yes.  Make rules for other believers?  No.  It's wholly un-Scriptural.

[titushome]

4.  Questioning whether decorum in the "church" is in fact "noble":

Response:

I do have a reference to back up the idea of "decorum" in the church:

1 Cor. 14: 33 "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. "

Here's another...

1 Cor. 14:40 "Let all things be done decently and in order."

Dictionary.com defines "decorum" thus:

1.   dignified propriety of behavior, speech, dress, etc.
2.   the quality or state of being decorous; orderliness; regularity.
3.   Usually, decorums. an observance or requirement of polite society.

Would you care to define, according to the Scriptures, what is "dignified propriety of behavior, speech, dress, etc." in a church meeting?  The only real directive we are given is to submit to the order imposed by the Spirit; i.e., to allow the Lord Himself to direct the order of the meeting - as in the Scriptures you quoted above.  I have a feeling that if we were to really do this, a great deal of our "dignified propriety" would go right out the window.  I don't believe for a minute that the order of the Spirit has anything to do with the human-invented "dignified propriety" we typically observe in our church meetings.  To the contrary, I think many times our "dignified propriety" actually stifles/hinders what the Spirit would do among and through us, were He permitted.

While this was speaking to the issue of multiple tongues and interpretations during a gathering, it is a "principle" that can be applied here.  Furthermore, I believe this to be a tradition to which most normal Christians are accustomed (not just me).  How is the expectation that the church service not be disrupted by unruly behavior in any way not noble?  To be clear, I use the term unruly to describe actions that are not consistent with the expectations of the assembled group.  As an example, in a Pentecostal Church, it would not be considered unruly for someone to break out in tongues, or dance in the aisles during the middle of service, as this would be considered a "move of God" (subject to the guidelines of 1 Cor. 14:1-40, or course).  Since you are the father of a young child I will patronize you and say that if a young child cries, or makes noise, there is certainly a "window" of acceptable behavior before it would be thought prudent that a parent take the child to the nursery.   What is not acceptable is the continued disruption of a church service by those whose intention is to disrupt the activities of the others in attendance. 

I mostly agree, although according to your own definition above, order in the meeting is a highly subjective and changeable thing; i.e., what is acceptable to one assembly, such as speaking in tongues and running the aisles, may not be acceptable to another.  But what about what is acceptable to the Spirit?  Is that not what really matters?

If a parent so chooses to "elevate" the status of the "church building" in the eyes of their children in an effort to induce respect for the "church facility," then sobeit.

Absolutely not.  This is wrong!  If parents choose to "elevate the status of the church building in the eyes of their children," if parents teach their children to "respect the church facility," they are doing their children a tremendous disservice.  It's only a building!!!  Our respect is to be reserved for God, His people, and (in a different way) the people who are not yet His.

[titushome]

A fundamental key to your written response is your implied belief that you really answer to no one but Jesus Christ himself.  As such, you imply in your writings that church attendance is really not necessary, and is at the whim of the "Christian."  Please tell me how you reconcile the inverse of what Paul wrote in Acts chapter 20, and what Peter wrote in 1 Pet. 5:1-5?  He did not write these things to the elders so they could "oversee" and "feed" empty chairs.  It was understood that as part of the "body of christ" you would align yourself with an "elder" and as Peter said in 1 Peter 5:5:

5  Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Ultimately, we do in fact answer to no one but Jesus Christ Himself.  In the meantime, of course, as we mature in Christ, we must answer to another - in particular, our elders, who have been charged with looking out for us and teaching us in the Lord.

If I have implied with anything I wrote that meeting with other Christians is not really necessary, then I apologize.  That is not what I believe at all, and not what I intended to communicate.  It is absolutely necessary to our continuing maturity in Christ that we regularly assemble with His people, our spiritual family, that we exhort one another and learn from one another - especially the younger learning from the elder, as the Bible describes.

With regard to 1 Peter 5:5, however, I would say not so much that we are to "align [ourselves] with an elder" as much as I would say that we are to submit - the word Peter used - ourselves to our elders, that we might learn to align ourselves with Christ.

[titushome]

1  There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Two things to consider:

a)  Until a person is "born again," they cannot "see" the Kingdom of God.  This speaks of the "enlightening" that occurs when we are born again - an enlightening that allows us to comprehend the Word of God, and to practice spiritual discernment.

b)  Unless a person is "born again" they cannot "enter into" the Kingdom of God.  Confession of one's faith in Christ alone does not procure "entrance" into the Kingdom of God.  One MUST be "born again."  All too many are "stopped" in the process at repentance.  They are taught that confessing Christ as your personal saviour constitutes salvation, while this "methodology" never occurs in scripture.   

So, the secular definition of "Christianity" consists of those who profess to follow Christ.  The "Biblical" definition of "Christianity" are those who demonstrate their belief in Christ by being Born Again, as evidenced by repentance from sin, Baptisim in the name of the Lord, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit.  When we are filled with the Holy Ghost, which is Christ within us, we truly become "his body" on earth.  To infer otherwise is false doctrine, and reveals either a misunderstanding or a manipulation of scripture.  Admittedly, there are many who profess to love "Christ", but have not continued past the act of repentance.

Your whole post was great, but this commentary on John 3:1-7 was especially beautiful.  Wonderful!

[titushome]

I actually had one former pastor, a man I love dearly and greatly admire, describe himself to me as "God's representative" - I almost leapt out of my seat when he said that!  Yet I've found it to be a typical attitude among church leaders today.

I thought we were all Ambassadors - Dosen't that make us all representatives of Jesus?  Isn't that what an Ambassador is - a representative?

You're absolutely correct.  The reason I had a problem this man's words was because he implied that he was a representative of God in a way that other believers are not.  I'm not at liberty to describe the whole conversation in which these words were spoken, but trust me: that's exactly what he meant.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Wonderful expressions, guys. I really wish I were that eloquent.

I'd like to interject something here that had totally fled my mind in prior conversations. Perhaps it will make it a tad easier to understand the differences of position, regarding "pastor". And I will state again, that I do not ever propose the Body refrain from assembly. We are in fact, assembling together here, on the net, even as we speak. For while it would seem to some that this is nothing more than a "gripe-fest" or worse, in reality the Body meets to share itself. The Body {church} in Oregon has something to assemble {input} for the church in Texas, Wisconsin, Australia, England, Arkansas, Mexico, etc.  We leave with something to contemplate about Christ. Whether we agree or not; whether we disputed the finer points or joyfully received it, doesn't make any difference. We met under the banner of Christ Jesus' love for each one of us.

The moderators are there to cool down the saints when passions threaten to get out of hand, but they do not reign. They do not tell anyone what to believe or not to believe; they do not limit topics to a pre-approved list; they do not ban perceptions not personally held; and they seldom interfere with the flow of conversation. They do settle disputes; they do discern what is inappropriate behavior or topic; they do monitor the ebb and flow of conversation within the entire forum. Theirs is the function of an elder.

Actually, the "internet" church is a very good example of how the "physical" church should function.

Well, that wasn't what I intended to say, but I'll take it. Let me now go back to my original thought.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I'd like to interject something here that had totally fled my mind in prior conversations. Perhaps it will make it a tad easier to understand the differences of position, regarding "pastor". Again, I do not imply or desire to do away with these gifts, but rather see them restored to proper function. That way, the entire Body will prosper as the Lord intends.

What we are dealing with is - to put it simply - the transition from King Saul to King David. Put another way - from the Church to the Kingdom.

Historically, Saul was crowned King at the beginning of wheat harvest. This is now known as the Day of Pentecost. Saul was a man chosen and anointed by God to rule His people. Saul was simultaneously carnal and godly. This is a type of the Church after Pentecost - carnal flesh filled with God's Spirit; sometimes acting carnally and sometimes godly. The Feast of Pentecost required wheat bread to be both leavened and unleavened. Thus, the church in Saul's kingdom operates in both truth and error; more so error as the leaven rises to completeness.

I Samuel 13 tells us that after Saul had reigned two years, his kingdom was taken from him for disobedience: he did not wait for the appointed time. For this, God anointed a new king, a man after His own heart: David.

Now we must choose our king - will we follow Saul or David? In order to follow David, we must leave the kingdom of Saul. We must reject his authority over us and submit to that of David. Saul was rejected after 2 days. Typically, this is the 2000 yrs of the church-age. Is it any wonder now that the same thing is happening in the Church? Saul is rejected and David is King. We seek to follow Christ and His Word; not the mixed leaven of Saul. David's men assembled out in caves in the wilderness, away from the structured known. It will only be for a short time, until the King is publicly crowned.

Interesting to note that David's enemy was Saul. The enemy of the "unchurched" is the recognized church.  So to anyone who may be considering leaving Saul's kingdom - be prepared for the worst, especially from the church. It's not an easy thing to overcome. But we must do that. We must "defect" to the rule of David and let Saul die alone, surrounded by Philistines. {Which, btw is another story altogether.} Does this mean we can't assemble in cathedrals and such? No, it doesn't. It simply means answering to the direct voice of Christ, via the HG. No man - Saul - rules any longer. That kingdom - method of rulership - is going to die. The Beast is going to destroy it completely and utterly before David comes to the throne. Some of us are simply recognizing that and trying to prepare.

Another interesting note is the time David waited to be King. Having been anointed in the beginning of Saul's third year, he waited 15 years before assuming the throne. Taking into account that 1000 yrs with the Lord is as 1 day, and we have entered the 3rd day since Pentecost - we just might have only 15yrs before Jesus is crowned King.

I hope that may shed another light upon the conflict we currently face.

[Raven180]

If a parent so chooses to "elevate" the status of the "church building" in the eyes of their children in an effort to induce respect for the "church facility," then sobeit.

Absolutely not.  This is wrong!  If parents choose to "elevate the status of the church building in the eyes of their children," if parents teach their children to "respect the church facility," they are doing their children a tremendous disservice.  It's only a building!!!  Our respect is to be reserved for God, His people, and (in a different way) the people who are not yet His.

I don't think anyone is advocating adoration of the edifice.

However, I think it's okay to instruct children, in a Godly way, how to behave while in a public place. A building used for public, ecclesiastical meetings should be treated with respect as much as any other building.

Children do need to be trained in the way that they should go. One aspect of that is helping them to learn self-controlled, proper behavior toward property. Churches that rent or borrow facilities, for example, ought to have an attitude of "make it look better than when we arrived" during the take down/clean-up phase of the service, i.e. at the end. That's a Godly, i.e. respectful attitude.

Even if you want to have house churches, which is perfectly fine, children attending such meetings ought to be curtailed from their usually normal, rambunctious, and sometimes wild and immature behavior. There's nothing wrong in this. Yes, kids will be kids. But adults don't have to let children run rampant as mini-tyrants who damage (church) property simple because "it's only a building".

If you were to have a meeting in your home (i.e. have a house church), would you let children run and play and skip and jump and anything else the children might conjure up or desire (drawing on walls, play with water, throw balls around, going through your private items, etc.) unsupervised during the worship/edification?

If not, why allow it at a building that is borrowed/rented/owned by a church (the people) for the same purpose?

The standard should at the very least, be the same, and in most cases, higher for the borrowed/rented/owned property, realizing that some people who attend don't have the immediate patience or understanding for children who behave in an out of control manner.

Imagine the sinner on the verge of repentance suddenly distracted from God's move on his or her heart because the children of the church (the people) were allowed to de-value the "church facility" in some way, like say jumping up and down on the pews, running around screaming, bouncing a ball against the walls, or whatever.

Such actions as these would actually disrespect God, His people, and the people who are not yet His, because it interrupted God's move, hindered His people's ministry, and distracted those that are not yet His from changing their mind and yielding their life to Christ.

All because parents didn't elevate the "building" in the eyes of their children. Essentially, the children treated the building, and therefore the people in it, disrespectfully.

I surmise that this is what doogie is after.

If so, I don't think anything he is advocating is wrong or contrary to God's will, even if a perfect prooftext can't be found in Scripture.

[Rattlesnake]

I think when we are talking about the house God respect thereof, we tend to forget Jesus himself displayed a very angry attitude because the house of God (the temple) was being disrespected. He turned over the money changers tables, whipped them with a scourage of cords and told them - not to make his father's house (temple) a house of merchandise!

[onli-one-jehovi]

Well, it's almost October. The dominoes are almost in place, waiting to be pushed over. The President has pretty much publicly admitted the intent of nationalizing the banking industry. That's what this "bail-out" is really all about. Another big notch cementing fasicism upon America. In case some haven't realized it yet - America is broke! There is no money in the Treasury! This country lives on credit and the cards are almost maxxed out!

There are US troops returning from Iraq, prepared to "patrol" our streets in case of "civil unrest". This is directly forbidden in the Constitution, yet it is happening. October is also the beginning of the Govt fiscal year. Congress borrowed  600 billion to continue emergency running of the govt for 6 months. I would suggest pulling some cash out of your bank account. It might be a bit difficult to do so in the next few weeks. After IKE, I would also recommend keeping about 3-4 days of emergency supplies on hand. Just in case.

I believe we are about to possibly begin the great tribulation. Seven years of plenty have passed and it certainly looks like famine times are just about here. The Feast of Trumpets {Rosh-Hosanna} begins Sept 30-Oct 1, and it has scripturally and historically proven to be portentous. I've asked if America was ready for Judgement - I guess we will see.

My best advice is to go before our Father in repentance of anything we've failed Him at. Seek to strengthen relationship with Him and listen closely to what He says. The time ahead is going to be tempestuous and unlike anything we've been through before. Totally uncharted ground. The lifestyle  to which we're accustomed is going to pretty much disappear. We' ll be forced to worship and serve Him in a different manner. No longer be "church as we know it". Each of us will have to be proven worthy on our own. Get prepared for persecution unheard of in this country. Get prepared for jail time and worse. But do not fear. The LORD will be with each of us. Also get prepared to do the miraculous. Get prepared for the great revival expected for centuries. We're entering the Super Bowl, and it's going to be glorious. But first we have to survive the training. 

[titushome]

Raven,

Thanks for your post - you're absolutely right.  I suppose my reaction was a little too strong.  I completely agree that children should be taught to respect buildings, including church buildings.  I'm just strongly against the reverence of church buildings advocated by so many of my brothers and sisters.

[Raven180]

Raven,

Thanks for your post - you're absolutely right.  I suppose my reaction was a little too strong.  I completely agree that children should be taught to respect buildings, including church buildings.  I'm just strongly against the reverence of church buildings advocated by so many of my brothers and sisters.

I know what you mean, Titus. I feel the same way.

I don't refer to a physical "temple" made with hands as "God's House" or the like.

If I can, I usually just say "church building". I might say something like, "I'm going to church" and it sounds like a physical place, but I'm really talking about the people meeting together and going to that meeting, rather than a site on a map somewhere.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I came across this prophetic word a couple of weeks ago. I know we're all concerned about the plunging economy and America's myriad problems. It is – and has been - my belief that our troubles are first and foremost, the beginnings of judgment upon this nation. It will not get better, but worse and worse. However, those who truly are in the Body of Christ, and who truly depend upon the Lord Jesus for all provisions, have nothing to fear. We know that, but sometimes need to hear it afresh. We need reminding that we are Ambassadors of Christ. This world is not our home. JESUS IS COMING! MAKE YOURSELVES READY!

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Economic Depression a Trial
Jim Robey - 10/02/08

The Word of the LORD says, "Soon the American economy will collapse under the weight of national and personal sins.  These things must be declares the LORD to try and purify my Bride and to recompense the abominations that have been committed in your country.  I have stated in MY Word that the nations are a drop in the bucket to me, and I do with them as I please.  Though many in this country have forgotten Me days without end, yet My judgments are redemptive in nature, and I will bring many people to Myself in their afflictions.   Many have snubbed their noses at Me by thinking that America is too powerful to be brought to its knees.  Yes, the goodness of the LORD brings men to repentance, but My afflictions that I send also bring men to repentance, as My servant David had stated.

"This Economic Depression will be lengthy and will try the souls of many.  My true followers will be separated from those who only claim to call me by Name.  But I provide for My people, as I have always.  I still can provide a table in the wilderness, declares the LORD.   Do not look to the great lack that is coming and is even here, but look to Me, as I have stated in My Word that I keep My people satisfied during famine.  You have nothing to fear, but be full of faith and know that I will keep you and your families.  It is I Who breaks the staff of bread in a nation that transgresses against Me.  I have sent messenger after messenger, prophet after prophet to declare the sins of this nation, but to no avail.  I do not afflict willingly, from the heart, the sons and daughters of men for their sins, but to redeem and restore a people to Myself.  When a nation transgresses against Me, and I give them space to repent, and they trodden under foot My mercies, then it is righteous for me to stand up and act.  Stay in MY Word.  You are My disciples, if you continue in My Word.

"To those who neglect My Word and desire the corrupt things of this world shall indeed come a reaping.  I have told you these things so that when your economy soon collapses that you will not lose heart, but that you will trust Me with all of your heart to take care of you.  But do I find faith on the earth?  Will you believe every Word that proceeds forth from the mouth of God?   Whose report will you believe?  Are you not a stranger and pilgrim traveling through this world, keeping yourselves unspotted from the world?

"Take courage, I am with you and dwelling in you.  Be full of faith and trust and in the Day of Trouble I will rescue and deliver you.

"With Great Love, Your God and Father."
________________________________________
This "printer-friendly" document was printed from Unleavened Bread Ministries' website at www.unleavenedbreadministries.org.  Original link for this document: http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=economicdep

[onli-one-jehovi]

Monday October 27, 2008

Changing Seasons

Today I woke up to the sight of snowflakes gently falling to the ground outside my window. It should have been a happy moment, but rather than feel any sense of joy, I just pulled the blanket closer to my chin and started thinking about the long winter ahead. I used to live in California, Southern California to be exact, and didn't ever have to worry about changing seasons. It was always sunny in California, and the worst it ever got, at least for the thirteen years I lived there was somewhere in the high fifties.

Having moved to Wisconsin after my wedding, I realized I had to keep track of the seasons a bit closer than I did while living on the West Coast. Yesterday, it was a bit breezy, but there were no outward signs that it would snow today, yet here the snow were falling to the ground this morning. Seasons change suddenly and without warning. What we took for granted today, (for me it was the ability to walk outside in a t-shirt without freezing), we realize the importance of, and feel the loss of tomorrow.

For a long time this nation didn't have to worry about changing seasons. We were the only superpower in the world, the big boy, with the big stick that all the other kids were scared of, we had a booming economy, an excellent housing market, and the only way someone didn't work in America was if they didn't want a job. Well, even though it's highly doubtful that I need to point it out to anyone, the seasons they are a-changing.

An empire can rise or fall, and economic system can fail and collapse irreparably so, as quickly as the seasons seem to change here in Wisconsin. If we have placed our trust in anything other than the heavenly Father, if we believe our security is in the color of our passport, our bank account, or our retirement portfolios, we will be shaken and uprooted, tossed asunder and trampled underfoot as readily as the rest of the world.

For over twenty years our ministry and others of like mind have been warning about the things that are beginning to take shape in this country. Some mocked, some laughed, some rejected, but some received and drew closer to God, growing in grace and faith and in their ability to trust God even for the smallest of things.

Yes, the warnings have ended. I believe the warnings ended some years ago, since a warning is basically a message informing of danger, far enough in advance wherein the danger can be avoided if the necessary steps are taken. We have gone past the point of no return, merrily gorging ourselves on the delicacies of prosperity, never once stopping to think that God Himself said the earth and everything in it shall pass away. Every time judgment was mentioned, we always assumed it was for a future generation, our children's children, or their children, but alas we see that all those messages all those warnings were for us, today.

I take no pleasure in saying that things will get significantly worse very soon, and that which has been foretold is being fulfilled. I realize I'm rambling, but for good reason. The hour is late!

If anyone was waiting to see the signs, if anyone was skeptical and wanted to see further proof before they committed themselves to God, before they took the call to repentance seriously, well perhaps the time has come to choose. Tomorrow is an uncertain time, and today may be all you have to surrender your heart to the heavenly Father.

With love in Christ,

Michael Boldea Jr.

www.mikeboldea.blogspot.com/

[onli-one-jehovi]

I heard a pastor the other day mention a passing reference to the following verses:

Therefore son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have commited a trespass against me. For when I had brought them inot the land, for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to them, then they saw every high hill, and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering: there also they made their sweet savour, and poured out there their drink offerings. Then I said unto them, What is the high place where-unto ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day. Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations? For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall i be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord God, I will not be enquired of by you.  Ezekiel 20:27-31

Today is election day here in the U.S. I am not promoting either of the candidates at all. Both are simply acting out their chosen role in the current farce of "free elections". Neither of them have proven to be anything but an enemy of God and His Word. I cannot and will not choose the lesser of either evil.

Nonetheless, I find it very interesting to find the scriptural use - and only use - of the word Bamah to be in regard to idol worship. Idol worship in the high places (wrestle against principalities in high places) designed to deflect and steal the true worship of the Lord and deceive the people. The people are being led astray by their own foolish choices. America stands at the threshold of electing a leader whose name scripturally means "high place", specifically related to idols. A man whose Muslim identity hasn't been verified. Can this be another warning sign from our Lord? Is He giving us a picture of what to expect in the next 4 years?

Remember what the Lord said when this idolatrous people seeks Him in worship - I will not be worshipped by you. America is going down. No amount of "prayer" by her sinful "christians" will change this fact. We are entering into times unheard of, no matter who wins. I believe the Lord is graciously giving whoever has ears to hear and eyes to see, a chance to repent and come out of Babylon. Repent of the religion that holds us captive. Repent of the dependence upon what passes for church, and not our GOD. Repent of demanding our will and not thine.

Church, the time has come to REPENT, FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND!   It is the last day. Time is running out. Everything in the world system is designed to combat Christ. Very soon, all the pieces will be in place and the slaughter can begin. Are you ready?

[OGIA]

Are you ready?

Yes, I am!!    :grin:

[onli-one-jehovi]

I think when we are talking about the house God respect thereof, we tend to forget Jesus himself displayed a very angry attitude because the house of God (the temple) was being disrespected. He turned over the money changers tables, whipped them with a scourage of cords and told them - not to make his father's house (temple) a house of merchandise!

Yet, the House of God is not a temple/building/sanctuary made with hands. It is us. The building so many meet in each Sunday & Wednesday remains nothing more than that - a building. There is absolutely nothing sacred about a "church". It is only the place where the CHURCH gathers. The same result can - and should - be accomplished in a Park, or a living room, or a car, or anywhere. Jesus said: where two or three are gathered together, there am I. Doesn't have to be our modern "church".

Yeah, Jesus got angry. But that was regarding the prior "temple". Notice he never got upset over a synagogue. And we should take a cue by running out all the merchandising ourselves. Where do we get off charging for a copy of a sermon? Or peddling car washes, bake-sales, books, DVD's, and sowing special seed offerings? We do far worse than those guys. I think Jesus needs to show up and give it another whack!

Our assembly places should be conducted with decorum. However, they are no more holy than a saints livingroom.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I received this e-mail the other day. We should pay heed.
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Pastor Joh.W.Matutis, (Berlin / Germany)
www.nnk-berlin.de <http://www.nnk-berlin.de> (english menu)


While praying this morning, God gave me a vision. He showed me a great, world-wide "mobilization"

I saw myself strolling along a beach. Suddenly, there sounded a loud boom, which became stronger and more massive. It was not the noise of the sea or of the wind. It was completely still outside. The sea water was as smooth as glass. The deep booming sound which was like the sound of the mountains about to cave in, a banging sound which I had up till now never heard in my whole life, came from the other side of the ocean, from far away. It became so strong and mighty, that the earth began to quake and shake.  It sounded like the blasting of a deep bass trumpet. I had never heard this sort and depth of bass sound before now. The whole air vibrated.  I holed myself up in the dunes of the embankment, face down, and waited to see what would come out of this natural spectacle.

When the booming refused to stop, and instead became stronger, I saw myself begin to pray in the vision, and to speak with my God. Then I heard a voice saying, "my child, fear not. That is my mobilization call, a signal, from the other world.  I am calling my people out from all peoples. I myself am shaking the earth and the sea. The sinners and godless will pass away for fear and the fearful expectation of the things which are to come.  Understand, my child, that all these have been initiated by the financial crises. That was just the beginning of ruin. The foundation of today's society will be so shaken that the people will lose all that they have acquired, and saved up till now.

Every infrastructure and welfare will collapse with time. Life will be very difficult for very many people. The general security will get out of control and there will be a proliferation of crime such that life on earth will be massively threatened. But you, who fear my name will I save from ruin. I am holding my arm of protection over you.

Although not even a silent wind blew, and not even a small wave was seen on the sea, the booming was so mighty, that my heart threatened to stop beating. Then I thought to myself, "I will now also die".  And then the Lord said to me, "my child, do not fear. You are to live and continue to declare my works.  Arise, go home and tell your loved ones.  Let them know that the coming of my son is very close at hand, at the doorstep. I am setting everything in motion in order to take my people home, and I am now stripping them of everything that is holding them back, or blocking them."

As I stood up to obey God's voice, starting to make my way homewards, I saw very many people, lying in the dunes. They had come out from their houses, racing towards the sea to see and experience this extraordinary natural spectacle. They lay on their faces as if paralysed, exactly as I had lain a few minutes before now.  As I passed by them on my way home, despite the continuous distant booming sound, these people called to me saying "you are crazy; you cannot make it home in this situation. It is too dangerous". They then buried their heads even further in the dunes, because they feared what would happen next. They no longer wanted to hear or know of anything.

And then said the Lord to me: "for you, my children, who fear my name, this is the day of my "mobilization". For you my "sun of salvation" arises, with which I gather my true children, and bring them together. Go, my son, and tell this everyone you can reach".

Then I asked the Lord "what shall I tell them?"  "Tell my children, He said", "they are no longer to occupy themselves with perishable things, but rather, much more with the immortal, the eternal things. They are to seek me and study my word. They should forgive one another, so long as there is still time, and make peace with one another.

They should stop being envious of, and pointing fingers at one another. They should neither accuse nor suspect one another. Everyone should do what he is supposed to, and can do. Tell them to free themselves of every unnecessary thing, and to stop fighting spasmodically (intermittently) for their rights.  From now on, I will ensure your rights, and provide for justice for you. Great changes are about to occur all over the world, in every area of life. Adjust yourselves therefore and be prepared. Nothing is going to be as it has been before now..."

The further I moved from the beach, the less of the booming sound I heard, even though I was of the opinion that the sound had become stronger and even more massive.  I felt as if I had been secured in a class case.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying "I will bring my children into safety in my own way. You will see everything I will do in the world, which will experience all the "plagues of Egypt" before I withdraw my children unto myself, before Pharaoh releases you forever.  My people hold together! Stay with one another, encourage one another. Soon, you would have made it!"

That was the last thing I took with me from this vision.

As I thought about all that I had seen, and what I should do with it, the Lord spoke to me saying "spread this revelation I have given you this morning about my "mobilization" overall further to my children, and encourage them to do likewise, for I am at the door (I am coming soon).  And tell them, especially my people, that they should be serious about their relationship with me (God), before it is too late...."



Do help me spread this message overall. Send it to your friends and acquaintances. Spread it your churches and house fellowships.  Translate it into other languages.


Maranatha! Our Lord comes.

Pastor Joh Matutis

[OGIA]

Pastor Joh.W.Matutis, (Berlin / Germany)
www.nnk-berlin.de <http://www.nnk-berlin.de> (english menu)

While praying this morning, God gave me a vision. When the booming refused to stop, and instead became stronger, I saw myself begin to pray in the vision, and to speak with my God.

As I stood up to obey God's voice,

And then said the Lord to me:

Then I asked the

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying

As I thought about all that I had seen, and what I should do with it, the Lord spoke to me

Maranatha! Our Lord comes.

My first question to Mr. Matutis would be "Which God and which Lord are you speaking of?  God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Ghost?"   


From Mr. Matutis's church website (http://www.freie-nazarethkirche.de/start.html):

There is only one God who consists for ever of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

We believe that the baptism should be done in form of immersion in the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost by everyone who has fully repented and who believes with all his/her heart in Jesus as their Saviour and Lord. (Mark 16:16)

We believe in baptism in the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:4. This baptism is for the purpose of equipping the saints for service.

If he can't get the basics right, Jerry, why should I pay heed to him?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Pastor Joh.W.Matutis, (Berlin / Germany)
www.nnk-berlin.de <http://www.nnk-berlin.de> (english menu)

While praying this morning, God gave me a vision. When the booming refused to stop, and instead became stronger, I saw myself begin to pray in the vision, and to speak with my God.

As I stood up to obey God's voice,

And then said the Lord to me:

Then I asked the

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying

As I thought about all that I had seen, and what I should do with it, the Lord spoke to me

Maranatha! Our Lord comes.

My first question to Mr. Matutis would be "Which God and which Lord are you speaking of?  God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Ghost?"   


From Mr. Matutis's church website (http://www.freie-nazarethkirche.de/start.html):

There is only one God who consists for ever of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

We believe that the baptism should be done in form of immersion in the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost by everyone who has fully repented and who believes with all his/her heart in Jesus as their Saviour and Lord. (Mark 16:16)

We believe in baptism in the Holy Ghost according to Acts 2:4. This baptism is for the purpose of equipping the saints for service.

If he can't get the basics right, Jerry, why should I pay heed to him?

You don't John. Not at all.

You don't have to pay heed to anybody you don't want to. Me, him, friends, family, congregation, etc. Your choice. Why don't you ask the Holy Ghost dwelling inside you? He is - after all - the Spirit of Truth able to discern falsehood. Bypass your bias of the messenger and let Him reveal the message. Then, if you don't want to harken, fine. Go on your merry way. Plant daisies! Pet puppies! Listen to the myriad number of preachers who promise us it will never happen!

Like I said - it's up to you. At the very least, it was an interesting article. I prefer to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.


Oh, as far as the brother's "basics" go: try out what I call "the thesaurus method" and substitue 'persons' with 'manifested'. It then looks similar to this:

While fully God, Jesus was also fully man, possessing a full and true humanity. He was both God and man. Moreover, the Holy Spirit is God with us and in us. Thus God is manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration.   upci website - statement of belief

I'm not getting into that argument again. You're welcome to it.   

[OGIA]

You don't John. Not at all.

You don't have to pay heed to anybody you don't want to. Me, him, friends, family, congregation, etc. Your choice.

I'm not sure why you get your proverbial undergarments in a knot when someone questions you, Jerry?  You come on here, copying and pasting something some guy in Europe claims to have gotten from the Lord, expecting me (and others, I guess) to "heed the word of the Lord".  I don't know this guy from Adam.  So, I go to check out where he stands on the truth.  It seems he doesn't stand right on the essentials.  So, I reject his word.  Yep, it might be true, but I'll stick to words from men who have the revelation of truth, not some johnny-come-lately whose walk with God is as clear to me as the sky here in Shreveport tonight.  (It's not)

And you seem to think that just because I won't "heed" the words of this unknown that I don't heed anyone's words at all.  You go so far as to grant me "permission" to not heed anyone's words, and go on to include some I wouldn't heed in the first place.  But, I do thank you for your attempt at granting me permission.  

Why don't you ask the Holy Ghost dwelling inside you? He is - after all - the Spirit of Truth able to discern falsehood. Bypass your bias of the messenger and let Him reveal the message. Then, if you don't want to harken, fine. Go on your merry way. Plant daisies! Pet puppies! Listen to the myriad number of preachers who promise us it will never happen!

Amazing, the implications in your post, Jerry!  If I choose not to heed this man's message after asking the Holy Ghost if he got this word from Him, I am told to go about my "merry way", ignoring the time I live in, frivolously wasting the gifts the Lord has blessed me with on horticulture and canines.  Please!  Of course, you then add in the possibility (probability?) that I am following all the false prophets of the.....*gasp*.....UPCI!!  

At the very least, it was an interesting article. I prefer to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

Yes, it was an interesting article, and I, too, prefer to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.  That's why I won't heed this man's words.  I don't believe he is born again and so he is not a messanger of the Church.  His message is very generic and Benny Hinn or Walter Cronkite could have spoken the same thing.

Oh, as far as the brother's "basics" go: try out what I call "the thesaurus method" and substitue 'persons' with 'manifested'.

I prefer not to substitute, Jerry.  It usually leads to doctrinal error.

Oh, by the way....I did not learn about the truth from the UPCI.  I couldn't care less what they post as their doctrinal statements.  I am not a member of the organization and feel it is on its way down a bad road.  Sure, there will be a remnant to come out of it, but it did not and does not dictate my beliefs.  In fact, I don't really agree with their statement on the godhead.  I have learned what I know from men of God whose lives I KNOW and from my own studies.  I choose to follow proven men of God, not a voice in an email from a guy who does not teach truth.

I'm not getting into that argument again. You're welcome to it.  

No argument here.  It is what it is.  I've quit arguing with folks.  You are also free to accept the truth as well, or not, as anyone else.  I can't make you.  Just don't expect to post "words" from a man who does not teach truth and the error of that messanger not be brought to light when discovered.  

 

[titushome]

You come on here, copying and pasting something some guy in Europe claims to have gotten from the Lord, expecting me (and others, I guess) to "heed the word of the Lord".  I don't know this guy from Adam.  So, I go to check out where he stands on the truth.  It seems he doesn't stand right on the essentials.  So, I reject his word.  Yep, it might be true, but I'll stick to words from men who have the revelation of truth, not some johnny-come-lately whose walk with God is as clear to me as the sky here in Shreveport tonight.  (It's not)

The Scriptures tell us that the Spirit will lead us into truth - not that there is any doctrinal litmus test to which all self-proclaimed messengers of God must be subjected.

God does fill trinitarians with His Spirit, and - gasp - yes, even speaks to and through them.  When He does, we ought to listen.  If you reject out-of-hand the words of anyone who doesn't believe in/understand oneness, then you're missing out on centuries of profound spiritual insight.

[onli-one-jehovi]

John... the point I was making - howbeit, in a semi-facetious way - was for you to at least attempt to let the Spirit say something before coming to a pre-determined conclusion. We're supposed to do that everyday, especially concerning scripture. That includes every message that comes across the pulpit of any congregation. That includes e-mails, forums, conversations, etc. Talking about my drawers.... listen to yourself!

I have no problem with any questions. It's just that same ole foolishness of - " they don't have/understand Acts 2:38, so nothing they say/do is true." {gag}

I don't really care if you heed or not. I don't really care if you believe it or not. I - Don't - Care! It's none of my business.

I post things that I desire to share with the Body. You don't want it ... ignore it. The brother may not be "oneness", but I am. It's not him you don't trust John. You don't trust me.

The man has some very valuable advice. Note the following:

Then I asked the Lord "what shall I tell them?"  "Tell my children, He said", "they are no longer to occupy themselves with perishable things, but rather, much more with the immortal, the eternal things. They are to seek me and study my word. They should forgive one another, so long as there is still time, and make peace with one another.  

They should stop being envious of, and pointing fingers at one another. They should neither accuse nor suspect one another. Everyone should do what he is supposed to, and can do. Tell them to free themselves of every unnecessary thing, and to stop fighting spasmodically (intermittently) for their rights.  From now on, I will ensure your rights, and provide for justice for you. Great changes are about to occur all over the world, in every area of life. Adjust yourselves therefore and be prepared. Nothing is going to be as it has been before now... And tell them, especially my people, that they should be serious about their relationship with me (God), before it is too late...."

Oh, and the UPCI quote... that was to show how we use the word "manifested" rather than "persons". The UPCI is a well known and respected source that I know you are aware of. I wasn't talking primarily about any falsehood from their preachers. No more than any falsehood coming from other denominations. The falsehood reference was to any preacher promising we will not go thru judgment and tribulation in this country or the Church. Had nothing to do with any organization.


I look forward to any questions John. But make sure they are legitimate ones. Leave accusations at the door.   

[OGIA]

The Scriptures tell us that the Spirit will lead us into truth - not that there is any doctrinal litmus test to which all self-proclaimed messengers of God must be subjected.

I think you'll find the doctrinal litmus test of all the true prophets of the OT, titushome.  That litmus test started with Deut. 6:4.  This guy doesn't adhere to that.  I choose to leave his message to others to "heed" if they choose.

God does fill trinitarians with His Spirit, and - gasp - yes, even speaks to and through them.  When He does, we ought to listen.  If you reject out-of-hand the words of anyone who doesn't believe in/understand oneness, then you're missing out on centuries of profound spiritual insight. 

How do you know when He does speak to and through them?  If you don't know that this message came "from God", they why are you suggesting I listen to him?  The message might have come from God, but he's not saying anything true children of God aren't saying.  I just wonder why we put so much stock in a trinitarians "word from God" and why I am admonished to "heed" the words of a man I have zero knowledge of.  If you choose to listen to him, so be it.  I was simply calling out this man's doctrinal error and wondering why I am asked to listen to him when I know true saints of God who are much more enlightened than he.

[OGIA]

I don't really care if you heed or not. I don't really care if you believe it or not. I - Don't - Care! It's none of my business.

Well, then maybe you'll quit posting trash from trinitarians? 

It's not him you don't trust John. You don't trust me.

It's both of you, Jerry.  Your move from truth has been predictably followed by your continued posting of junk from those who don't even hold truth in righteousness, much less have a revelation of it.  As I said, the man may be right, but why do you just post any old Joe Schmo and expect those who read it to "heed" it?  If you didn't expect us to, if you "don't care", etc.....why post it at all?  Seems simply because you likely agree with him doctrinally, you expect us to accept his "word from God" as true, and expect us to accept this from someone who's not even in the Body, nonetheless.

I look forward to any questions John. But make sure they are legitimate ones. Leave accusations at the door.  

I don't have any questions about the man's "vision", and my post was not accusational.  It was to show outright evidence of the man's lack of knowledge of truth and to question you about why I am expected to "heed" his words.  No, Jerry; no accusations.  Just bringing darkness to light.  He's doctrinally in error.  Doesn't the Bible say to avoid those who are?