ARE AMERICANS READY FOR JUDGMENT?

[doogie]

So, please eexplain to me why Jesus Christ would subject his "Bride" to the wrath that is to be pouted out on this wicked earth?

We are not appointed unto wrath, but will be caught up with Christ before the man of sin is revealed, returning to rule and reign with him during the millinium.

[onli-one-jehovi]

So, please eexplain to me why Jesus Christ would subject his "Bride" to the wrath that is to be pouted out on this wicked earth?

We are not appointed unto wrath, but will be caught up with Christ before the man of sin is revealed, returning to rule and reign with him during the millinium.

The wrath of God upon a sinful planet is not until the end of the tribulation. Just as the flood did not come upon the earth until after 7 days of rain.

Has the purpose of tribulation ever been seriously looked at? A quick look at scripture reveals tribulation to be a refining element of the Lord for His people. There is no way at all that the Church is ready for a pre-trib rapture. The Church is too enmeshed within the world and the Harlot system. The Church must be purged and that takes tribulation/persecution.

Where does scripture endorse a single "man of sin"? Has it ever occurred to us that the "man of sin" is our fleshly nature being revealed by the Holy Ghost and destroyed by the fire of God? Every time we go thru the fires of tribulation, the purpose is to bring to the top the dross in our lives. The "man of sin" if you will. The Lord reveals this in order for us to deal with it and allow His "coming" in our lives to destroy it.

The type of the last 7 yrs is a type of Tabernacles. For 7 days the people have to eat unleavened bread. That is the pure word of God w/o any man-made doctrines/teachings added. The revealing of the "man of sin" corresponds to sweeping the house of leaven. The wrath of the Lamb is to purge His Body, and is targeted toward it's members who should know better.

The final wrath of God takes place after the resurrection & rapture, and appears to last approximately 1 yr. This will be a time of total world-war and Armeggadon. There will be no righteous upon the planet.

[doogie]

Salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ is the only refinement needed for the church to be "prepared" for the imminent pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

[mesipie]

[onli-one-jehovi]

Salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ is the only refinement needed for the church to be "prepared" for the imminent pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

Yes to the first part.

Scripture for the 2nd.

Any answers to the resurection question?

[OGIA]

Hey Jerry:

You miss this?

Jerry,

What do you see that prompts you to say "weeks and months"?  Just curious.  

[onli-one-jehovi]

Hey Jerry:

You miss this?

Jerry,

What do you see that prompts you to say "weeks and months"?  Just curious.  

Yes I did. Sorry. Haven't been back to page 1. Will do that now.

[onli-one-jehovi]

What prompts "weeks and months"?

Well, first off, there is this niggling down in my spirit that keeps pushing and warning that time is running out. Difficult to vocalize. Just a prompting of the Spirit that increases hourly. This year began for me by the HG crying out REPENT! EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BURN! God always seeks repentance among His people before judgement. This has increased and not decreased all year.

Second - the state of American current affairs. Our economy is a wreck. Our dollar is about to collapse. Our govt is seizing more and more power over everyday life and individual rights. Our military is increasing "war games" with other nations, right in the face of very powerful enemies. Our leaders see nothing wrong with Iraqi/Afghanistan wars continuing perpetually. Presidential hopefuls think war with Russia would be a good thing. Our leaders desire to continue to spread the American Empire to whatever nation it chooses. Our debt is currently NINE TRILLION DOLLARS - not counting Fannie, Freddie, Medicare, and Social Security. Add those in and the total is around SEVENTY-FIVE TRILLION! We're on the verge of armed resurection over the decisions of our "elected" officials. The legalization and recognition of homosexual marriage. The 50+ million legal abortions since Roe vs Wade. Our own financial/educated experts are saying America - as we know it - can't continue past another decade. We'll be in third-world status.

Third - the increase of natural disasters just this year. California is being burned to the ground. There is a drought over much of the country. {droughts are scripturally signs of judgement} The bread basket of the middle states has been flooded out. The coasts are being pulverized by hurricanes coming in succession; some criss-crossing the state and re-grouping before dissolution. Our food production is being demolished. Earthquakes being felt in unlikely places. {there were tremors in NYC}

Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.

Fifth - the alignment of the Fall Feasts correspond more closely to 2008 than ever before. The signs in the sun, moon, and stars point toward possibly beginning soon.

Sixth - the propensity of Christians to put off all prophetic fullfilment to "some other generation" always adds years from now. Everything we have looked for and expected to happen based upon scripture is happening today - September 2008. Yet the church still thinks "some other time".

There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider. 

[OGIA]

Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.

There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider. 

Any specifics you can give -- what false teachings, anyone in particular, any group in particular, etc?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.

There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider. 

Any specifics you can give -- what false teachings, anyone in particular, any group in particular, etc?

Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? 

False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!

Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.

Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.

The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.

The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?

The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".

The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.

All these are the preachings of another Jesus.

[OGIA]

Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? 

Well, if you're going to call the saints out to repent, you gotta let 'em know what to repent over, right?  The prophet usually let the folks know what they needed to do to get right with God, didn't they?  

Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.

This is one I struggle with.  I see a lot of people mimicking the Lord in His ministry to the poor, but where is the teaching in the epistles to the Church to do so outside of the Church?  I don't see the ministry of the Lord to the poor evident as much in Paul's life, nor does he teach about it being for those outside of the Body, for example.  I say that as an absolute, but relative to the ministry of Jesus on earth, there is very little ministering to the worldly poor in the accounts of the Church leaders.  It all seemed to be directed to the Body.

There are a lot of "denominal" movements getting into what I call the "Jesus ministry".  I'm involved in one here.  They've been at it for almost 10 years now.  Bought an old crack house and feed every Wednesday and tutor M-Th for over an hour after school.  A group of a dozen or so middle-age, middle class white folks sacrficing BIG TIME for this work.  It blows the Apostolic churches away, just what THEY do.  BUT......they don't have the rest of the NT down hardly at all -- no leadership, no gifts of the Spirit, no direction, etc.

Anyway, just pondering...again...about this.  I ask the Lord almost everyday if they are doing what we should be.  I KNOW we have what they need in the spiritual sense, but do THEY have what WE need in the service sense?  Or, is that not what the Lord meant by "unto the least of these my brethren"?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? 

Well, if you're going to call the saints out to repent, you gotta let 'em know what to repent over, right?  The prophet usually let the folks know what they needed to do to get right with God, didn't they?  

Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.

This is one I struggle with.  I see a lot of people mimicking the Lord in His ministry to the poor, but where is the teaching in the epistles to the Church to do so outside of the Church?  I don't see the ministry of the Lord to the poor evident as much in Paul's life, nor does he teach about it being for those outside of the Body, for example.  I say that as an absolute, but relative to the ministry of Jesus on earth, there is very little ministering to the worldly poor in the accounts of the Church leaders.  It all seemed to be directed to the Body.

There are a lot of "denominal" movements getting into what I call the "Jesus ministry".  I'm involved in one here.  They've been at it for almost 10 years now.  Bought an old crack house and feed every Wednesday and tutor M-Th for over an hour after school.  A group of a dozen or so middle-age, middle class white folks sacrficing BIG TIME for this work.  It blows the Apostolic churches away, just what THEY do.  BUT......they don't have the rest of the NT down hardly at all -- no leadership, no gifts of the Spirit, no direction, etc.

Anyway, just pondering...again...about this.  I ask the Lord almost everyday if they are doing what we should be.  I KNOW we have what they need in the spiritual sense, but do THEY have what WE need in the service sense?  Or, is that not what the Lord meant by "unto the least of these my brethren"?

I'm primarily speaking of the poor, widows, and orphans in the Body. I think we should help the world, but not at the expense of our own. Sadly, we tend to leave most of that up to Social Security, Medicare, and blood family members. We take up thousands of dollars to expand or decorate the building, and take care of missionaries overseas, while many of the local congregants can't pay their light bill. We even manipulate them into giving toward our programs! I find it interesting that Jesus is not recorded as asking how much money you gave or buildings you built, but He does ask how did you take care of the hungry and needy among you. I think this refers to the least, don't you?

I'm pondering lots of things too. I'm convinced the closer we get to Jesus and the deeper our relationship with Him becomes; so many things will become more important. Actually, most important. I just find myself becoming more and more out of step with traditional "church" and its ways. Price to pay for that. So far, it's been worth it.

Keep on plugging in there doing all the things the Lord is leading you to do. Expect more changes in the months/weeks ahead.

[doogie]

Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.

There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider. 

Any specifics you can give -- what false teachings, anyone in particular, any group in particular, etc?

Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? 

False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!

Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.

Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.

The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.

The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?

The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".

The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.

All these are the preachings of another Jesus.

Your delusional writings leave me speechless but NOT unable to respond by typing... 

Let me attempt to un-delude you:

False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!

You cannot lump all of "chrisianity" into the same pile.  Have you considered these words of Jesus?

Mark 10:28-30
28  Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29  And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.

Mal 3:8  Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.

While some may mistakenly infer deeper meaning to the church building than as a common meeting place for believers of like faith, most understand that God's spirit dwells in the hearts of men - that we are the literal temple of God.  That having been said THERE IS NOTHING WRONG - SCRIPTURALLY OR OTHERWISE - WITH HAVING A BUILDING TO WORSHIP IN.

The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.

Not sure what "elitism" you are referring to, but Paul did set forth more than a few requirements for those seeking to be in the "ministry."  You might read 1 Timothy 3 as a starting point.

The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?

Unnprofitable?  I once spent a period of time in a "post-trib" church, and the pastor stood up and said "I dont see how God could come within the next seven years..."  Highly contrary teaching as compared to the immenent return of Christ that was preached and taught by the early church (and continues to be preached today). 

Read Matthew 24:42-44:

42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".

The "chosen race" status of the Jews was never rescinded.  Read what Paul had to say in Romans 11:25-29:

25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.

Not sure where you get this?  The church will not be going through the "Great Tribulation," but persecution is another story.  We are actually admonished in scripture that it is likely we will in fact be persecuted for Jesus Christ's name sake. 

All these are the preachings of another Jesus.

Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.

Shalom.

[titushome]

I'm sure OOJ will have his own responses, but here are mine:

False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!

You cannot lump all of "chrisianity" into the same pile.

While one cannot, as you say, "lump all of Christianity into the same pile," one can recognize that what OOJ wrote is true: false teachings DO pretty much fill all of recognized Christianity.  Here are some: trinitarianism; teaching that water baptism and the infilling of the Spirit are optional; training the saints - not usually by words, but by deeds - to rely solely on trained "ministers" for their spiritual feedings; the increasingly pervasive belief that Christ is but one of many ways to God; and the afore-mentioned so-called "prosperity gospel."

Regarding the last:

Have you considered these words of Jesus?

Mark 10:28-30
28  Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29  And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

I believe these words of Jesus find their fulfillment at the Church's beginning as described in Acts, when it says they "had all things common."  When the Church operates as she should, those who become members become without need, as they now have all the resources of all their brothers and sisters to meet their needs.

One cannot take - as "prosperity gospel" proponents have done - a passage such as this and claim that God wants to make us individually rich with the goods of this world.

Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.

While some may mistakenly infer deeper meaning to the church building than as a common meeting place for believers of like faith, most understand that God's spirit dwells in the hearts of men - that we are the literal temple of God.  That having been said THERE IS NOTHING WRONG - SCRIPTURALLY OR OTHERWISE - WITH HAVING A BUILDING TO WORSHIP IN.

Actually, there is something wrong with "having a building to worship in":  worship is something we do with our whole lives, not just when we gather together.  I strongly suspect that our practice of dedicating buildings to be used solely for church gatherings has contributed greatly to the mentality of some that "worship" is something done once or twice a week, and the rest of our lives we can live as we please.

The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.

Not sure what "elitism" you are referring to, but Paul did set forth more than a few requirements for those seeking to be in the "ministry."  You might read 1 Timothy 3 as a starting point.

I'll let OOJ define for himself what he meant by "elitism," but to me it invokes the idea - another false teaching widespread in modern Christianity - that those believers who are called to teach, preach, prophesy, evangelize and plant new churches are somehow "above" other believers.  It's an idea that is usually denied verbally, but affirmed without question in reality.

All these are the preachings of another Jesus.

Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.

Wow, doogie.  Tell us how you really feel. 

[doogie]

Response to Titushome:

I'm sure OOJ will have his own responses, but here are mine:

False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!

You cannot lump all of "chrisianity" into the same pile.

While one cannot, as you say, "lump all of Christianity into the same pile," one can recognize that what OOJ wrote is true: false teachings DO pretty much fill all of recognized Christianity.  Here are some: trinitarianism; teaching that water baptism and the infilling of the Spirit are optional; training the saints - not usually by words, but by deeds - to rely solely on trained "ministers" for their spiritual feedings; the increasingly pervasive belief that Christ is but one of many ways to God; and the afore-mentioned so-called "prosperity gospel."

Rebuttal:  OOJ's comments, to which I was responding, referenced a group of people who were apparently leaving the so-called "church system" and "pressing on into the kingdom."  If OOJ were referring to those who were leaving secular religion and joining those of us who believe and practice the Apostles Doctrine, I wouldnt have taken issue.  The tenor of his post and the slanderings contained therein, however, allude to the Apostilic Church teaching doctrines that are lies (his words, not mine!).  We can all acknowledge that "Recognized Christianity" is full of falsehoods, but, in the context of this discussion, OOJ did not make that distinction.

Regarding the last:

Have you considered these words of Jesus?

Mark 10:28-30
28  Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29  And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

I believe these words of Jesus find their fulfillment at the Church's beginning as described in Acts, when it says they "had all things common."  When the Church operates as she should, those who become members become without need, as they now have all the resources of all their brothers and sisters to meet their needs.

One cannot take - as "prosperity gospel" proponents have done - a passage such as this and claim that God wants to make us individually rich with the goods of this world.

Rebuttal:  We can agree that those who preach a "prosperity gospel" are incorrect, but, in regard to your response to Verse 29, You are absolutely mistaken.  Read Jesus words in the context of what they were discussing, and his disciples were asking basically "what are we going to get for our dedication to you - we've given up everything?"  He responded that they would be blessed with physical things as well as family in this life, but that it would also come with persecution.  You may also wish to read Matthew Chapter 6.  Now, to be clear, I do not advocate riches and wealth as a result of "living for God," but I do believe that we will be taken care of. 

Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.

While some may mistakenly infer deeper meaning to the church building than as a common meeting place for believers of like faith, most understand that God's spirit dwells in the hearts of men - that we are the literal temple of God.  That having been said THERE IS NOTHING WRONG - SCRIPTURALLY OR OTHERWISE - WITH HAVING A BUILDING TO WORSHIP IN.

Actually, there is something wrong with "having a building to worship in":  worship is something we do with our whole lives, not just when we gather together.  I strongly suspect that our practice of dedicating buildings to be used solely for church gatherings has contributed greatly to the mentality of some that "worship" is something done once or twice a week, and the rest of our lives we can live as we please.\

Rebuttal:  While I agree that our lives are to be lived in worship to Christ, I absolutely disagree with the premise that a building should not be dedicated as a common place of worship.  While I do not for a second infer ANY spiritual meaning to the "church building," it is a functional and important element of the modern Church - if for no other reason than to assure that wholesale groups of people are ministered to by those embracing sound doctrine.  Furthermore, one could ask the question whether corporate ownership of the "church building" by the associated "members" is not a much more prudent and stewardship-oriented methodology than renting or leasing.  The issue of "saints" who have wrongfully developed a mentality that "worship" is sonething done twice a week wouldnt matter whether you met in someones home or a church building.

The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.

Not sure what "elitism" you are referring to, but Paul did set forth more than a few requirements for those seeking to be in the "ministry."  You might read 1 Timothy 3 as a starting point.

I'll let OOJ define for himself what he meant by "elitism," but to me it invokes the idea - another false teaching widespread in modern Christianity - that those believers who are called to teach, preach, prophesy, evangelize and plant new churches are somehow "above" other believers.  It's an idea that is usually denied verbally, but affirmed without question in reality.

Rebuttal:  Again, read 1 Timothy 3.  While this does not make anyone better than anyone else, it does establish a basis for leadership.  And if there is "leadership," there is a pecking order.  Like it or not, God has always LED his people, and the NT church is no different.  If your are meaning to imply that the Apostle Paul was not above the churches he wrote to, you are mistaken.  If he did not have authority, no one would have listened to what he had to say.  Today, God calls Pastors who will give account for those whom they pastor.  Is he "better" than the rest of the Church?  No.  But, he has been given spiritual authority, and as such, those of us who are saints, are subject to that authority.  He is not a lord over God's heritage, rather a shepherd to guide us in truth.  That having been said, a Pastor is not a substitute for the Infilling of the Holy Ghost, which will lead us and guide us into all truth.

All these are the preachings of another Jesus.

Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.

Wow, doogie.  Tell us how you really feel. 

Response:  I will ferociously and vociferiously defend what I believe to be truth.  There are those who may read this board who could be led astray by some who post their false interpretations of scripture.  While I may inadequately defend scripture, I will at least make an attempt to do so.  Consider that OOJ postulated that doctrines I hold sacred are in fact lies.  A pacifistic response is not acceptable.  I believe him to be of a contentious spirit and find his writings to be false doctrine.

Added later:

I also would say this:  If OOJ's approach were one of "I have studied the scripture, and as such this is what I believe," I might respond differently.  However, when he calls basic doctrinal beliefs "lies," it is disturbing.  As such, I feel the need to be very very clear that I do not agree with his posting.  I might add that I do not use the word "delusional" lightly - rather I see it as a sad end to those who choose to reinterpret Truth to fit their belief system.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Fourth - this year has shown a dramatic increase among the people of God abandoning "the church system". People are leaving in droves, answering the call of the Spirit to come out of Babylon. People are leaving the church and pressing on into the kingdom. The pull is getting stronger as false teaching is being revealed.

There's a lot more. I hope that is enough to consider. 

Any specifics you can give -- what false teachings, anyone in particular, any group in particular, etc?

Oh John. You don't ask the easy stuff do you? 

False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!

Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.

Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.

The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.

The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?

The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".

The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.

All these are the preachings of another Jesus.

Your delusional writings leave me speechless but NOT unable to respond by typing... 

Let me attempt to un-delude you:

False teachings.... pretty much fill all of recognized christianity. One of the biggest is the prosperity gospel. The one where God wants you to be rich. You can receive that by sowing into "my ministry". Puhleze!

You cannot lump all of "chrisianity" into the same pile.  Have you considered these words of Jesus?

Mark 10:28-30
28  Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29  And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Titus is so much more eloquent than I. I hope to at least add some things for you.

******************************************************************

The last time I checked the Bible, the church - believers in Jesus Christ, also called Christianity - is called the Body of Christ. A body is singular and not plural. Did not Paul say the Body is one? Lumping Christianity into numerous piles would create another Jesus. But wait, isn't that what religion has done? Create a Jesus body not like scripture?

All prosperity teaching focuses on one thing only: THE FLESH. What's in it for me? If I do this, what do I get and when? The kingdom of God is not a stock market wherein returns come with investments. The Kingdom of God is the kingdom of our Christ; it is He who has made the investment in us thru redemption. It is He who expects a return for Himself. We are His creation, formed for His pleasure. Not the other way around. Jesus is not a genie who comes out of the magic Bible; nor is He bound by the incantation of sacred words. Much of what we see, and the attitude shown is that of carnal men hiding behind religious sounding phrases.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Tithing is another big deceit. Fleeces the sheep by unruly shepherds.

Mal 3:8  Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

This has been dealt with in Apostolic Truth pages 6-10 or thereabouts.  The list of all scriptural references to tithing is there for consideration.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Church buildings being "the house of God". Spending so much money on programs that ignore the poor and widows but build man's kingdom.

While some may mistakenly infer deeper meaning to the church building than as a common meeting place for believers of like faith, most understand that God's spirit dwells in the hearts of men - that we are the literal temple of God.  That having been said THERE IS NOTHING WRONG - SCRIPTURALLY OR OTHERWISE - WITH HAVING A BUILDING TO WORSHIP IN.

No there's not. However, there is not an admonition or example to do so either.

The error comes when said building is transformed into "the house of God". The error comes when such building is considered "holy" and sacred. The error comes when the building becomes the identity of the saints. The error comes when the upkeep and maintenance of said building prevents proper care of congregational widows, orphans, and poor folks.

There is a reason the Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed by God.

[onli-one-jehovi]

The elitism of the ministry. The high priesthood propagating ministry and laity being separate.

Not sure what "elitism" you are referring to, but Paul did set forth more than a few requirements for those seeking to be in the "ministry."  You might read 1 Timothy 3 as a starting point.

Elitism referring to a separate caste system as in priesthood. The current Protestant system is taken from the Catholic system, which is based upon the Judaist system, as well as influxes from pagan rites. 

The ministry Paul spoke of is nothing like what we currently perceive to be correct. According to scripture, we are all equal priests and equal brethren in Christ. Here there are no big I's and little U's. No such thing as laity.  That is what the unbelievers practice. Jesus said it shall not be so among you.

[onli-one-jehovi]

The pre-trib rapture lie. How unprofitable has that been to the Body over the years?

Unnprofitable?  I once spent a period of time in a "post-trib" church, and the pastor stood up and said "I dont see how God could come within the next seven years..."  Highly contrary teaching as compared to the immenent return of Christ that was preached and taught by the early church (and continues to be preached today). 

Read Matthew 24:42-44:

42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Actually, the early church clearly understood the Lord would return on the seventh day or 7000 years from Adam. They understood the Feasts were types of the 2 comings of the Lord; spring/religious/lamb and fall/civil/king. There is no record of a pre-trib rapture anywhere in scripture or history prior to the early 1800's. The closest the Bible comes to recording this teaching is when Paul talks about some false teachers who said the resurrection had already occurred. Nowhere in the Bible is there any proof of this deceit. Scripture tells us over and over that the Lord will come after the tribulation, on the last day. BTW, you haven't found the answer to an earlier question yet, have you? The question about which is first the resurrection or the rapture? Well, the answer is the resurrection of the righteous dead, immediately followed by the catching away with them, of the living. Scripture only records 2 resurrections: just and unjust. If the rapture occurs first, how can the martyred tribulation saints be saved? The only resurrection left is of the damned.

Jesus said 4 times in St John chapter six that the resurrection is on the last day. That last day is the 7000th   year from Adam & the 3000th from Christ; where He raises up His temple. You know - the temple of His Body. The false teaching of an imminent return steals the hope of a future by discouraging education, discouraging self-improvement, discouraging relationships, discouraging preparation for life. It also builds up huge mountain of despair when the event doesn't happen. I'm old enough to remember that we weren't supposed to be here beyond the year 2000.  Well, we are! Check with some folks and see how unprofitable it left their life. See what would have been done differently if this error had not been stressed so diligently. Check your history and you'll find this teaching began around the year 1830. America has exported it around the world, along with the prosperity message. Ask other nations how unprofitable it's been.

Also, it keeps us unprepared for what's coming upon us all. Like the foolish virgins who took no extra oil - made no preparations beyond midnight - today's church will find itself going thru circumstances it never had to. Re-check the Book. Do a web-search and you'll see what scripture really says.

[onli-one-jehovi]

The "sacredness" of Jews and Israel and how Jerusalem is "holy".

The "chosen race" status of the Jews was never rescinded.  Read what Paul had to say in Romans 11:25-29:

25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Scripture says a Jew is one inwardly circumcised of the heart; and not outwardly circumcised by the flesh. Israel is no longer identified by the flesh but by the spirit. Paul said: know no man after the flesh. The Israel spoken of in Romans is the Israel of God - Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ Jesus. That is the "all Israel", not the natural nation. Jesus said because they failed to recognize His coming to them, there house would be made desolate. He cursed the fig tree as a type of national Israel. The fig tree would never again bear fruit. In 70 AD, the Temple was burned to the ground forever. The error of natural Israel somehow being sacred and holy while rejecting the Messiah, is ludicrous. I think it close to blasphemy. Many Jews will ultimately come to Christ and be saved, but it won't be because they are more holy or special than anyone else. Natural Jerusalem is the bond-woman Hagar; while New Jerusalem is the mother of promise Sarah. The bond-woman has been left desolate.

[onli-one-jehovi]

The church will not be persecuted. Well, in America at least.

Not sure where you get this?  The church will not be going through the "Great Tribulation," but persecution is another story.  We are actually admonished in scripture that it is likely we will in fact be persecuted for Jesus Christ's name sake. 

Most American Christians do not think persecution will happen to them. It is beyond their scope of reasoning. Persecution to an American is not being able to pray in school. Or, somebody cussed me out in the check out line. Or, they made fun of me because I'm Pentecostal, or Baptist, or Assembly of God. That's not persecution.

Americans do not think persecution will happen to them because the rapture will keep us from that. We won't be here when such bad things come to pass. We will be persecuted, imprisoned, and killed in this country. Again, take a closer look at the book w/o pre-conceived assumptions. We'll be here.

[onli-one-jehovi]

All these are the preachings of another Jesus.

Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.

Now that might be persecution.  Calling those things you can't scripturally or historically refute "corrupt, possibly satanically - deluded". I do believe that if we were face-to-face, you'd probably hit me. Reminds me of the Sanhedrin confronting Stephen: foaming at the mouth with rage at his words. I hear religion speaking. And religion always presents another Jesus.

But aren't we talking about how the carnal leaven has slipped into the unleavened Body? Aren't carnal things "possibly satanically-deluded and corrupt"? I was asked for some examples of deceit and I gave them. So far, all you've done is rant and rave over some tried & true religious responses. None of which prove anything I've said to be incorrect. Scripture tells us to put on the mind of Christ. Now, Jesus has a glorified, immortal, incorruptible head attached to His Body. When I put on Christ, then corruption has put on incorruption and my understandings/thoughts are his and not my own. Therefore, they cannot come from a possibly corrupt, satanically-deluded mind. Isn't it more likely religion harbors the mind you've accused me of? Isn't it more likely the deceit comes from that interpretation of scripture?

Remember, 10 of the 12 spies were wrong. 10 of the 12 tribes worshipped the calf at Dan. Only 8 people thought it would rain. Majority consensus didn't apply then. What makes you think it does now?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Response to Titushome:

Only in your corrupt, possibly "satanically-deluded" mind.

Wow, doogie.  Tell us how you really feel. 

Response:  I will ferociously and vociferiously defend what I believe to be truth.  There are those who may read this board who could be led astray by some who post their false interpretations of scripture.  While I may inadequately defend scripture, I will at least make an attempt to do so.  Consider that OOJ postulated that doctrines I hold sacred are in fact lies.  A pacifistic response is not acceptable.  I believe him to be of a contentious spirit and find his writings to be false doctrine.

Added later:

I also would say this:  If OOJ's approach were one of "I have studied the scripture, and as such this is what I believe," I might respond differently.  However, when he calls basic doctrinal beliefs "lies," it is disturbing.  As such, I feel the need to be very very clear that I do not agree with his posting.  I might add that I do not use the word "delusional" lightly - rather I see it as a sad end to those who choose to reinterpret Truth to fit their belief system. [/quote]

All Right. Thanks for making it plain. I appreciate that.

I am contentious, but not in the way you and others here believe. Apparently, you find anyone who challenges the religious conclusions of your doctrine to be in error. Apparently, you and other such ones are incapable of being deceived. It has to be someone else. Isn't that what Adam and Eve said when God revealed their error? Oh I'm contentious alright. I'm doing the best I can to reason & persuade everyone who will listen. I want religion to be destroyed out of the Body of Christ so we can all be like Him. That's what I want.

Why is something false only when "I" don't agree with it? Wherever I am today in my relationship with God - the deepest deeps and highest highs and truth understood - each step required exposing something false. Not one of us here today got here knowing everything. We all had to re-evaluate what we thought was true. I have yet to see a stopping place for that event. Not this side of Heaven anyway.

You find it false doctrine, even though you have yet to seriously study things out. At least as far as I can tell. Some things take weeks, months, and even years to recognize. You can't do it with one quick scan. Disagree all you want. Just do it after serious consideration and searching of scripture.


I might add that I do not use the word "delusional" lightly - rather I see it as a sad end to those who choose to reinterpret Truth to fit their belief system

What do you think a mixture of leavened bread and unleavened bread is? It is up to us to allow the HG to kill off the leaven and totally remove it. You can't do that only hearing a particular denominational doctrine or hearing particular denominational interpretations or fellowshipping with particular denominational saints. The Body is so much bigger than that and will feed itself. What your denominational saint cannot tell you, another saint can. Eventually there will be no denominations, just one united Body of Christ with Jesus as the Head. Together we can clearly see the real wolves among the sheep.

Doogie, your response has been one of the flesh and not the Spirit. It was the same response seen over and over in scripture by the Sanhedrin and enemies of God. I don't think that was the intent. I've disagreed with many here myself. That happens in discussion. Don't be so quick to condemn what you don't understand. I really don't care what you call me. I figure I'm in good company. 

[titushome]

Rebuttal:  OOJ's comments, to which I was responding, referenced a group of people who were apparently leaving the so-called "church system" and "pressing on into the kingdom."  If OOJ were referring to those who were leaving secular religion and joining those of us who believe and practice the Apostles Doctrine, I wouldnt have taken issue.  The tenor of his post and the slanderings contained therein, however, allude to the Apostilic Church teaching doctrines that are lies (his words, not mine!).  We can all acknowledge that "Recognized Christianity" is full of falsehoods, but, in the context of this discussion, OOJ did not make that distinction.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I didn't make that distinction either.  And that was intentional.

There's only ONE Church, doogie - and what we in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries have come to call "the Apostolic church" ain't it.  The one true Church is the Church that has Jesus Christ as its head; it's the Church that is washed in His blood, filled with His Spirit, following His teachings, and conforming to His image.

No, I'm not attacking or even criticizing the apostolic movement that began in the early twentieth century; that's not my purpose here.  All I'm saying is that equating that movement with the Church of God, which you seem to be doing - correct me if I'm wrong - is a mistake.

As far as "the Apostolic church teaching doctrines that are lies," many Apostolic churches I've been part of have taught and enforced the following incorrect doctrines and practices:

   1. They typically set up one man, the pastor, as the sovereign head of the local assembly, and he is to be obeyed more or less without question, excepted only when he is in obvious violation of the Scriptures.
   2. They typically teach, or at least imply, that the pastor somehow has a special relationship with God that the rest of the saints can't have, as evidenced by such sayings as "God will tell the pastor things he won't tell you or me," or "the pastor is empowered to make rules because God gives him the wisdom to know what's best for his church."
   3. They typically refer to assemblies by the pastor's name, as in "Bro. So-and-so's church."  It's not his church; it's Jesus' church.
   4. They typically teach, all denials to the contrary, that the church building is sanctified.  Thus we refer to the building as "the church" or "the house of God," we hear parents telling their children not to run "in church," and we are often told that when we enter the church building we are in the presence of God - as if we're not in His presence outside the building.
   5. They typically teach that regular attendance of scheduled meetings is mandatory, and that the faithfulness of anyone who misses a meeting is to be questioned.

I could go on, but I won't.  These things, I believe, are the trappings of religion.  They hamper, rather than help, the Body of Christ.

And yes, each is a perversion of something genuine: there really is a genuine role within the Church for pastors, building and meetings.  But I'm not talking about the way things should be; I'm talking about the way things often are, about the errors that are passed off in our churches as gospel truth.

Rebuttal:  We can agree that those who preach a "prosperity gospel" are incorrect, but, in regard to your response to Verse 29, You are absolutely mistaken.  Read Jesus words in the context of what they were discussing, and his disciples were asking basically "what are we going to get for our dedication to you - we've given up everything?"  He responded that they would be blessed with physical things as well as family in this life, but that it would also come with persecution.  You may also wish to read Matthew Chapter 6.  Now, to be clear, I do not advocate riches and wealth as a result of "living for God," but I do believe that we will be taken care of. 

I guess I'm failing to see the distinction between what I wrote and what you wrote; it seems to me like two different ways of describing the same thing.

Rebuttal:  While I agree that our lives are to be lived in worship to Christ, I absolutely disagree with the premise that a building should not be dedicated as a common place of worship.  While I do not for a second infer ANY spiritual meaning to the "church building," it is a functional and important element of the modern Church - if for no other reason than to assure that wholesale groups of people are ministered to by those embracing sound doctrine.  Furthermore, one could ask the question whether corporate ownership of the "church building" by the associated "members" is not a much more prudent and stewardship-oriented methodology than renting or leasing.  The issue of "saints" who have wrongfully developed a mentality that "worship" is sonething done twice a week wouldnt matter whether you met in someones home or a church building.

These are valid points, but while you "do not for a second infer ANY spiritual meaning to the 'church building,' " many if not most believers do.  This is a grievous error, with disastrous results, that needs to be corrected.

Rebuttal:  Again, read 1 Timothy 3.  While this does not make anyone better than anyone else, it does establish a basis for leadership.  And if there is "leadership," there is a pecking order.  Like it or not, God has always LED his people, and the NT church is no different.  If your are meaning to imply that the Apostle Paul was not above the churches he wrote to, you are mistaken.  If he did not have authority, no one would have listened to what he had to say.  Today, God calls Pastors who will give account for those whom they pastor.  Is he "better" than the rest of the Church?  No.  But, he has been given spiritual authority, and as such, those of us who are saints, are subject to that authority.  He is not a lord over God's heritage, rather a shepherd to guide us in truth.  That having been said, a Pastor is not a substitute for the Infilling of the Holy Ghost, which will lead us and guide us into all truth.

The leadership described in the NT by Jesus and His disciples is leadership by example, by virtue of spiritual maturity, wisdom and experience.  Thus there is no "pecking order."  Within the Church, one does not have to be "above" another in order to exercise authority.  This, rather, is the way of the world; but Jesus said it would not be so among us.

Otherwise, I heartily agree with everything you wrote, especially the parts I bolded.