Obama Slips Up About His Faith !

[Brother Dad]

later guys and gals!! no phone money equalls no phone, hence there goes the computer too!

whew! this economic crunch is getting to me. this month we had to choose car or phone!!

we will be back when we can afford such luxuries.

How will you be able to survive?

[Rattlesnake]

The government should always be accountable - as a matter of fact - the government is the people (or started out that way). We the people is a correct statement.

The only thing here that needs to be clarified is the fact about what is meant by "not swearing allegiance". I mean, are you saying there should be no Pledge allegiance to the flag? (because in it, allegiance to the Republic for which it stands is also included).

Are you saying that in an act of war against this country, because you have sworn no allegiance, you are free to commit treasonist acts under the guise (a little rebellion is ok?).

Are you saying that you're fellow citizens, the ones who have to lay down beside you in the same neighborhood, have no right to know who's side you're on? You see, when you say "I don't swear allegiance to a country", people get anxious as to where you really stand!

Swearing allegiance does not mean to bend to every thing that a government trys to impose, but it does mean you're neighbors should be safe in knowing where their friend next door will stand in case of emergency! It does mean that an individual will display a certian sense of loyalty when it comes to the defense of this great nation and it's people!  It means that if you can't stand with us in times of trouble, then why would you stand here in times of peace?

Does it mean there are no absolutes, no longer any stand for something or fall for anything? What does it mean? I would really like to know.

Because we have so many here that do not have to swear allegiance, we have more enemies at home - than we do abroad!

My mother was from England, it took her 12 years to get her citizenship, when she finally got it - she had to swear allegiance to this country or be sent back home! I feel that no less should be done today.

[bishopnl]

it is not the government but the individualls that are in government. remember of the people for the people by the people. and that is what we pledge alligence to, under God.

Man is always flawed, therefore, man-made and man run government is always going to suffer from corruption and internal strife.  No matter who is running it.  "We the people" ordained a Constitution to keep in check, as much as possible, the corruption and problems that come with such a government.

As for our neighbors knowing where I stand and all of that:

If my neighbors want to know whether or not I swear allegiance to a bunch of corrupt and immoral politicians, they're free to ask me.  Although I would dispute that my neighbors "have a right to know" anything about my political beliefs. 

It also lets me know that the spirit of Americans in 1776 and the spirit of Americans in 2008 is not the same. 

The Declaration of Independence says:  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.."

Yet in 2008, the United States government has become destructive of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness through multiple policies, and yet we're told, "If you don't swear allegiance to this government, you should get out."

The fact is, if you guys want to swear allegiance to anything, it shouldn't be the government.  It should be the Constitution which has been trashed by the same government you are advocating we swear fealty and loyalty too.

Also, it somehow seems that the implication here is that one who doesn't swear allegiance to the American government is an "enemy" and wants to commit "treason."  Is that how one views allegiance to the Kingdom of God?  That it makes you a traitor to America?

[Cody P]

The only thing I am saying is that , We need a president who isnt affraid to fight for our country , one who will stand up and pledge the allegance and salute The American Flag.  Obama dosent even like our flag or our National Anthem and that is very sad.  I think its funny that Obama is running for The President of The United States and he dont even agree or like The United States. I  just think that The United States is going to go even farther down hill if he gets presidency.  I am VOTING FOR John McCain , I like his ways , his respones to the questions asked of him and I like what he stands for. And another thing if you cant salute the American Flag or Recite The National Anthem you better be careful and watch what you are saying about The United States because God has his hands on this great counrty. And if Obama gets president I am almost 100 % sure that God will take his hands off of us.

[bishopnl]

And another thing if you cant salute the American Flag or Recite The National Anthem you better be careful and watch what you are saying about The United States because God has his hands on this great counrty. And if Obama gets president I am almost 100 % sure that God will take his hands off of us.

I see...so God is a Republican?

[Cody P]

I didnt say that ! , All I am saying is that I dont see why anyone that is a christian would want Obama as their president ?

[bishopnl]

I didnt say that ! , All I am saying is that I dont see why anyone that is a christian would want Obama as their president ?

Hey, I don't see why anyone would want Obama as their president period, whether they are Christian or not! 

But I don't think God's waiting on the election to decide the fate of America. 

[Cody P]

Im not sure about if that is what God is doing or not but anyways , I just wish we could do something to impact more people to vote for John McCain.

[titushome]

And if Obama gets president I am almost 100 % sure that God will take his hands off of us.

Whether or not God "has His hands on" a people, so to speak, depends on whether or not that people is faithful to Him.  It has nothing to do with the person who sits in the White House (although the election of that person is to a degree a reflection of the values and priorities of the people).

One could make the case that God long ago "took His hands off us," due to the increasingly widespread wickedness of the American people.

[bishopnl]

I think God has his hands on America only in the sense that God is in control of every nation, and he orchestrates all things according to His will.

As to God having his hands on a people in the sense of the favor of God, I think God's favor is not upon any earthly nation, but upon His people.

[Chérie]

it is not the government but the individualls that are in government. remember of the people for the people by the people. and that is what we pledge alligence to, under God.

Man is always flawed, therefore, man-made and man run government is always going to suffer from corruption and internal strife.  No matter who is running it.  "We the people" ordained a Constitution to keep in check, as much as possible, the corruption and problems that come with such a government.

As for our neighbors knowing where I stand and all of that:

If my neighbors want to know whether or not I swear allegiance to a bunch of corrupt and immoral politicians, they're free to ask me.  Although I would dispute that my neighbors "have a right to know" anything about my political beliefs. 

It also lets me know that the spirit of Americans in 1776 and the spirit of Americans in 2008 is not the same. 

The Declaration of Independence says:  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.."

Yet in 2008, the United States government has become destructive of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness through multiple policies, and yet we're told, "If you don't swear allegiance to this government, you should get out."

The fact is, if you guys want to swear allegiance to anything, it shouldn't be the government.  It should be the Constitution which has been trashed by the same government you are advocating we swear fealty and loyalty too.

Also, it somehow seems that the implication here is that one who doesn't swear allegiance to the American government is an "enemy" and wants to commit "treason."  Is that how one views allegiance to the Kingdom of God?  That it makes you a traitor to America?

wow. i can't believe i am saying this... but ditto everything nate just said.

[Chérie]

Im not sure about if that is what God is doing or not but anyways , I just wish we could do something to impact more people to vote for John McCain.

maybe you should preach more fire and brimstone...

[Rattlesnake]

it is not the government but the individualls that are in government. remember of the people for the people by the people. and that is what we pledge alligence to, under God.

Man is always flawed, therefore, man-made and man run government is always going to suffer from corruption and internal strife.  No matter who is running it.  "We the people" ordained a Constitution to keep in check, as much as possible, the corruption and problems that come with such a government.

As for our neighbors knowing where I stand and all of that:

If my neighbors want to know whether or not I swear allegiance to a bunch of corrupt and immoral politicians, they're free to ask me.  Although I would dispute that my neighbors "have a right to know" anything about my political beliefs. 

It also lets me know that the spirit of Americans in 1776 and the spirit of Americans in 2008 is not the same. 

The Declaration of Independence says:  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.."

Yet in 2008, the United States government has become destructive of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness through multiple policies, and yet we're told, "If you don't swear allegiance to this government, you should get out."

The fact is, if you guys want to swear allegiance to anything, it shouldn't be the government.  It should be the Constitution which has been trashed by the same government you are advocating we swear fealty and loyalty too.

Also, it somehow seems that the implication here is that one who doesn't swear allegiance to the American government is an "enemy" and wants to commit "treason."  Is that how one views allegiance to the Kingdom of God?  That it makes you a traitor to America?

1st, you're political affliations are not in question here, the question was " where do you stand"? Pledging allegiance to the government is not the question here either, although pledging allegiance to the people, who by the way are the government, the country in which you live and to the flag, which stands for liberty, freedom, justice equality among other things would be an honorable thing!

You keep saying swearing allegiance to the American government, I am not talking about an administration, I am talking about a country, People flag e.t.c.

And I in no way insinuated because you would not swear allegiance to any government that would make you want to be a traitor or an enemy, I simply asked a question, which you failed to answer!

God himself tells us that a kingdom divided against itself will not stand, and any common sense at all would tell you that a stance against a "any" government wherein which you live would be against all biblical teaching.

In the case here, you have confused a government entity, with the government (as in people) and the country in which you live. The allegiance with Christ will be of none effect to anyone if they can't follow the teachings ---

Jesus is first, then family, then the government of the USA (THE PEOPLE)!!!

[Rattlesnake]

I think God has his hands on America only in the sense that God is in control of every nation, and he orchestrates all things according to His will.

As to God having his hands on a people in the sense of the favor of God, I think God's favor is not upon any earthly nation, but upon His people.

Then you just contradicted the word! God made a promise to Abraham to bless anyone who blessed him, regardless of their standing in the kingdom!

[Rattlesnake]

I didnt say that ! , All I am saying is that I dont see why anyone that is a christian would want Obama as their president ?

Hey, I don't see why anyone would want Obama as their president period, whether they are Christian or not! 

But I don't think God's waiting on the election to decide the fate of America. 

God could very well be waiting on the outcome of the elecition to decide the severity of our fate! Remember, nations are punished because of their rulers.

[bishopnl]

Let's lay out a few facts.

We, the people, as stated in the Preamble to the Constitution, is NOT the government of the United States.  The people formed a Constitution which would establish a government.  Until the government gets back to following the Constitution, you are going to have a hard time convincing me that it's present goal is truly representing "the people." 

I have never insinuated that I support treasonous acts or am on anyone's "side" other than God's or the Constitutions, neither of which the current federal government gives any regard too.  The quotes from Jefferson, which were initially posted by JD, were done so not to advocate that we all go out and start an armed uprising (the fact that there is even a question of this is ludicrous), but rather to show that Jefferson, along with other founding fathers, never supported allegiance to the government.  You said, earlier in the thread:  "Not only did they swear allegiance to the flag, country and it's people, they swore allegiance to the preservation of the people, the union and the Government as a whole."

This is patently untrue.  The Pledge of Allegiance, which is given "to the Republic" was written by Christian Socialist Francis Bellamy in 1892 and wasn't recognized as the official pledge until 1942, under practically socialist president Franklin Roosevelt.  Nowhere did the Founders dictate that we should all swear allegiance to the flag and the government.  I have a hard time imagining Jefferson advocating that we all pledge allegiance to the "Republic" (i.e. government) when he was so distrustful of governments that he advocated a "little rebellion" every now and then to keep it honest.  Their is no record, to my knowledge, of Jefferson, Madison, or any of the other Founders stating that we owe the government, or the union, our unswerving loyalty.  Their own words tell us that they believe government should always be held accountable.

I'm not against those who pledge allegiance to the flag...I've done it many times myself.  Most people, like Ben, aren't really thinking of Washington bureaucracy when they say the pledge...they are just thinking about the country in general.  Maybe this is what you are saying now.  But the statements you made earlier in the thread, like the aforementioned one as well as this one:  It was not the Government they distrusted (they formed it) it was the people who refused to swear allegiance to this country and it's beliefs and tried to destroy the very thing America stood for ---- FREEDOM!!!!!!
Lead me to believe that you came into the thread convinced the founders wanted us to swear loyalty to the government as well as the country, but tried to shift when you saw actual letters from the founders stating their distrust of government, and realized you weren't as aware of their positions as you initially thought.

As for the rest of this, you seem to be of the opinion that the Bible commands us to swear allegiance to our earthly government/country.  Could you show me where you find this in scripture, please?  I see plenty of scripture for obeying authority (as long as you can do so without violating the Word of God), but nowhere do I remember seeing that we have to pledge our undying loyalty to the government or the country.

Further you state:  God himself tells us that a kingdom divided against itself will not stand, and any common sense at all would tell you that a stance against a "any" government wherein which you live would be against all biblical teaching.

I take it then, that any Christian member of Nazi Germany in 1939 should have been in wholehearted favor of the annihilation of the Jews--otherwise they were "against all biblical teaching?"  Pol Pot, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein...taking a stance against them if you were a citizen of their country is "against all biblical teaching?"  Or for that matter, Jefferson, Adams, Washington and the Founders were "against all biblical teachings" when they took up arms against a government that had become oppressive of their basic human rights?

Rattlesnake, I think you're a good guy.  I appreciate the fact that you love the US.  But this idea that taking a stance against the government with no qualifiers is sin is just dead wrong.  Our government has consistently violated the Constitution and in many cases trampled on the 3 basic human rights listed in the Declaration.  The Bible says I am to obey the authority over me, but nowhere does it say that I have to swear my allegiance to a government that violates the supreme law of the land.  I'll obey it's laws as long as obeying it doesn't conflict with my Christianity, but I'll continue to point out that the entity itself routinely violates both scripture and the Constitution.

Then you just contradicted the word! God made a promise to Abraham to bless anyone who blessed him, regardless of their standing in the kingdom!

    What?  How is America "blessing God" or His people?  The fact that they allow Christianity to exist in this country?

God could very well be waiting on the outcome of the election to decide the severity of our fate! Remember, nations are punished because of their rulers.

OK....God sets kings up and sets kings down. (Dan. 2:21) He already knows who is going to be elected.  So he's not waiting on anything. 

Further, having to choose between McCain and Obama is punishment enough....It's like choosing between fire and brimstone or a flood.

[bishopnl]

Btw, I shouldn't have to add qualifiers to the things I'm saying, but it's pretty certain, judging from the reactions, that qualifiers might be needed.  Obviously, I speak only for myself.

I am extremely grateful to live in America.  I love the people (even though many of them frustrate me), I love the rich full history, and there are parts of that history that I'm grateful for and proud of.  And there are many things in and about America today that I am proud of.  I respect and honor the sacrifices of people who have served, and the country itself I have deep affection and love for.

It's the government I have a problem with.  I don't owe it my allegiance or any loyalty.  As a Christian, I should obey the law as long as it doesn't conflict with my service to God, but as a citizen, it's my duty to point out when government is in violation of the law itself.  As an American, our primary "duty" so to speak, is to the Constitution...and when the government violates it, it ought to make us angry, not make us want to swear allegiance and turn a blind eye.

[Rattlesnake]

Ok, Ok ---- we could go on with this forever!!!! Good points on all sides! I want to say that these conversations are solely for the sharpining of the mind. To make one step out of the box, and to maybe realize there are other options to consider. To make a statement and then watch the reaction is sometimes priceless!

While we all have different opinions, we all as christians are working toward the same goal! Thank God for the differences...

I do believe that when you take a stance, it should be bathed with prayer, so to be sure that the stance we take is in line with biblical teachings "ie" taking a stance against the government (or rulers) I think that would be a more adequate explaination of what is meant here - I think is contrary to what Jesus meant when he said pray for you're rulers, that they might do the will of God. No one is advocating blind allegiance, we must be wise as serpents - yet harmless as doves, but integrity, honesty and loyality are traits inspired by God himself.

If a man cannot be loyal to his brethern and country who he has seen - then how can he be loyal to a God he hasn't? Once again, bilnd allegiance is not advocated. Remember, the scripture? I know it says love, but the afore mentioned are all a part of the charity the bible mentions and says without - we will in no wise enter in. That is how the world will know we are Christians, by the love we have toward one another.

I didn't say fall in love with the government, or any of its views, but I do say that if we intend to go to heaven, we had better understand that no power is given except it be of God, and we had better not be guilty of speaking evil of what God has ordained!

Gentlemen, in short, there are ones among us that are sworn to our hurt, lets join together and lift up this great nation and it's leaders - to the one true God who is able !!!!

Do not think that any of my post are comitted to the hurt of any individual, regardless of his stance or ideas, because simply put - I love you all in Jesus name - and there's nothing you can do about it.

I do want to mention that God indeed still waiting, even until the last minute, in hopes that our mind and hearts will be changed, the door of the ark is and will always be opened until the very last minute!!

[jdcord]

Once agin sorry for the confusion. 

Me too.  Sorry about that.

I was just wanting to clear up that I feel Peter was more talking about rebeling in the Church.

I completely agree with you about that.  But you'd be surprised at how many people see such verses as referring to earthly national governments, instead of referring to the leadership (or "governing") of the church.

[jdcord]

Btw, I shouldn't have to add qualifiers to the things I'm saying, but it's pretty certain, judging from the reactions, that qualifiers might be needed.  Obviously, I speak only for myself.

I am extremely grateful to live in America.  I love the people (even though many of them frustrate me), I love the rich full history, and there are parts of that history that I'm grateful for and proud of.  And there are many things in and about America today that I am proud of.  I respect and honor the sacrifices of people who have served, and the country itself I have deep affection and love for.

It's the government I have a problem with.  I don't owe it my allegiance or any loyalty.  As a Christian, I should obey the law as long as it doesn't conflict with my service to God, but as a citizen, it's my duty to point out when government is in violation of the law itself.  As an American, our primary "duty" so to speak, is to the Constitution...and when the government violates it, it ought to make us angry, not make us want to swear allegiance and turn a blind eye.

                                                     


Great post, oh mighty one (as is the post before it, also).          I gravel at your feet.    (*L*)

[jdcord]

Rattlesnake,

You weren't necessarily addressing me with your post, but I'd like to chime in anyway.

The only thing here that needs to be clarified is the fact about what is meant by "not swearing allegiance". I mean, are you saying there should be no Pledge allegiance to the flag? (because in it, allegiance to the Republic for which it stands is also included).

That's a good place to start.  The second is that the pledge was written by an avowed Socialist, with his stated intention being that the pledge would teach children to be loyal to the government (not to the Constitution, or to the ideals upon which the nation was founded - but to the government, specifically).  Unfortunately, I'd have to say that Bellamy's Socialist "pledge" has most definitely had its desired effect - many Americans have grown up with an almost blind loyalty to the government, no matter it does, and with a complete disinterest in being a "watchdog" on the government, and an even lesser interest in speaking out or otherwise actively holding it accountable to abide by the Constitution (because they don't even have any interest in such things, anyway).

You may think that the pledge is just an innocent little thing to do, and that it truly promotes just an allegiance to "We, the people", but the Socialist author of the pledge had a far different intention (by his own admission) - the intention of instilling loyalty to the government - and I dare say that he would be very pleased indeed with the results of his seemingly "innocent" little pledge.

Are you saying that in an act of war against this country, because you have sworn no allegiance, you are free to commit treasonist acts under the guise (a little rebellion is ok?).

Let me change just one or two details of your question, and ask it "right back at ya".     

"Are you saying that the founders, in an act of war against their country, because they had  sworn no allegiance to the crown, that they were  free to commit treasonous acts under the guise (a little rebellion is ok?)."

Hmmmmmmmm?  ..... makes that question a whole more interesting, wouldn't you say?

Are you saying that you're fellow citizens, the ones who have to lay down beside you in the same neighborhood, have no right to know who's side you're on?

I definitely would say that.  They have no "right" to know  that.  They have every right to ask, but absolutely no right to know.  I would even say that they have every right to demand to know, but still would have no actual right to know, and certainly no right to use any force to obtain an answer.  ......... but if you've learned anything at all about me in the last week or so, you can probably imagine that they would most likely regret ever having asked me in the first place, because once I got started they would almost certainly have a very hard time getting me to ever shut up.  *LOL*

You see, when you say "I don't swear allegiance to a country", people get anxious as to where you really stand!

They shouldn't.  Because whenever this subject has come up I have always been very pointed about exactly where I stand, and why it is that I won't swear allegiance to any earthly government or nation.  If I were asked to swear an allegiance to the founding ideals of this nation, or even to the Constitution itself, I would gladly do so (as long as I could do so with the understanding that God and his word supersede any such allegiance on my part).  But an allegiance to "the flag" or to "the Republic"?  ...... Nah-Ah.  Not gonna do it. 

And I shouldn't have to point this out, but for further clarification purposes I will anyway:  it should be obvious by now that I wouldn't "turn on" my neighbors and "wage war" against them on behalf of any other nation or people (since I clearly would never swear an allegiance to any of them, either).  And in the case of an actual invasion, ... God forbid, ... I would definitely stand with my friends and neighbors in any such fight.  However, the movie "Red Dawn" not withstanding, and considering the immensity of the military strength of our current "Empire" on the Potomac, I don't foresee any such thing happening anywhere in my lifetime.

It means that if you can't stand with us in times of trouble, then why would you stand here in times of peace?

For me, that would almost solely depend on what (specifically) was being heralded as "times of trouble", and under what circumstances, of course.  I have a feeling that some of the things you might consider "times of trouble", I would consider as just plain "blowback" from any one of the government's numerous arrogant and forceful episodes of interference (and murderous, war-mongering) pretty much anywhere and everywhere on the planet.  But as I said above, an actual invasion of of the territorial U.S. would be a different story altogether. 

[Richard]

I am admitting up front that I did not read all of this thread...I couldn't stomach it honestly.

A few points:

1.  Obama has stated that it was customary for him to place his hand over his heart for the pledge, and stand respectfully during the Anthem.  I believe this because this is exactly what I was taught as a child.  Also...at a recent event at my high school...I nudged my friend during the Anthem and pointed at the 90% of the crowd that respectfully stood without their hands on their hearts.  I guess it's the rule rather than the exception.  Either that or there are a buncha 'Merica hatin' commies in the most conservative district in Arkansas.

Seriously...this issue has been done to death.

2.  Support for your nation needs to be measured by your actions rather than your words.  Does anyone doubt McCain's love for his country?  Not in the face of his sacrifices as a soldier.  Does anyone really doubt Obama's love for his country?  Well...if you want to do that, you will have to discard any and all of the public service he has ever done, as well as his work in government...or adopt a VERY jaded attitude about politics in general.  And if you are going to do that, then what would stop you from using the same jaded arguments on McCain.

3.  Most people who say the Pledge do not know what it means.  Therefore it becomes an empty gesture.

4.  Suggesting people should leave America if they don't say the Pledge is to show yourself to be ignorant of the most basic of American principles.  Seriously...what is more liberating than being allowed to decline to swear your loyalty to your nation.

5.  The Bible says we are not supposed to swear by anything...not even the hair of our own head.  Why?  Because...we don't know what tomorrow is going to bring...how can we attest to something's validity when we are fallible.  I choose not to "swear allegiance" to anything.  Doubly so a national standard that has flown over great evil as well as great good. 

I do not say the Pledge...it is my right not to.  I pay my taxes and I obey the laws of this land.  That is the way that I show love for my country.

[Brother Dad]

Thought I would place this on this web.  Who is Obama?

http://www.christianfamilytube.com/?c=users_video&s=more&id=1797