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Why Parents Should Not Allow Kids To Read Certian Books !

Started by acts2believer, August 29, 2010, 01:35:07 AM

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acts2believer

Mark Driscoll talks about the top preteen and teen books sold on Amazon and ends with his thoughts on Twilight. Click http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkHl0MK_ZdY&feature=player_embedded#! to watch the video.

bishopnl

Do you mind giving a brief synopsis of what he said, and which books (if there are any besides Twilight) which he takes issue with?
~Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.~
- Mark Twain, a Biography

~There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.~

- James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788

bishopnl

Nm...I went ahead and listened to it.

The first half of the video he is just covering a list of teen and pre-teen literature recommendations from Amazon that was sent to his daughter.  He shows slides of the covers and makes a few observations about each book, based on the cover art and titles.  Then he prefaces his remarks about Twilight by referencing the fact that the author is a Mormon, and gives a brief overview of the foundation of the Mormon church, particularly Joseph Smith's claims that he was visited by an angel named Moroni.  He then draws a correlation between this and Stephenie Meyer's account of how she came up with the idea for Twilight.  It was based on a dream she had.  He then proceeds to list a few of the issues he has with Twilight including the fact that it's about vampires, werewolves, etc., as well as the fact that the series has gained a following with older women (whom he calls "cougars) who "lust after a 16 year old vampire." 

Here are a few of my issues.
Regarding all the other books in his slide show, I know absolutely nothing.  However, Driscoll seems content to judge each book by it's cover and title.  A few years ago, a limited release film called The Sin-Eater was released in theaters.  I saw the title and thought, "I wonder if that's like some weird occultic thing."  I found out later it's actually based on a Christian novel.  For reasons like this, I try to avoid rendering an opinion about something on which I know nothing (I won't say it never happens, as many people here know...;) ). Maybe Driscoll has done actual research on these books, but if so, he didn't really reference it in his message.

Regarding Twilight, I've read all four books.  They are vapid and shallow, but IMO, harmless in most other respects.  My first problem with Driscolls message is his comparison of Stephenie Meyer's "dream" to Joseph Smith's vision of Moroni.  It is a logical fallacy to argue that correlation implies causation.  The thinking seems to be "Because Joseph Smith had a dream of Moroni, and was the head of the Mormon church, then Stephenie Meyer, who is a Mormon, also had a dream, then the cause of their dreams must be the same."  Both people may have had dreams, both may have been part of the Mormon faith, but all similarities end there.

Secondly, I think a discerning reader can distinguish the difference between fantasy and reality.  If books contain satanic references, real spells, etc. then I can see where Driscoll and others like him have a point.  But when books contain fictionalized "magic" with no satanic connections, then I believe discerning readers can tell the difference between this and true evil.  I believe there is a distinction between magic as a literary device and magic as a true form of evil.  Some believers think there's no difference, and they are against everything from Mary Poppins to Harry Potter.  I applaud their consistency, and if this is the camp that Driscoll falls into, then good for him for being consistent in his argument.  Others think that Mary Poppins and Cinderella are fine, but newer books like Twilight and Harry Potter are evil.  I think this is silly and inconsistent.  Either way, I find nothing spiritually objectionable about Twilight, although the obsession with this series certainly has some troubling things to say about society.

Driscoll's criticism of older women's obsession with the books is also a little contradictory.  First he criticizes the women for "lusting after a 16 year old vampire" then turns around and objects to the fact that in the book, a 19 year old girl is marrying a 108 year old vampire.  Which is it?  Are the "cougar moms" wrong b/c they are "lusting" after a too young vampire, or are the younger girls wrong for "lusting" after a too old vampire? ( I use the word lusting loosely...we all know lust is wrong period).

Anyway...Driscoll might be better served spending a little more time hammering former buddies Brian MacLaren and Doug Paggitt.  You want my opinion, their doctrine is SIGNIFICANTLY more dangerous to Christianity than the Twilight fad.
~Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.~
- Mark Twain, a Biography

~There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.~

- James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788

Melody

I liked what he had to say.  It seemed like basic common sense.  The biggest point I feel he is trying to convey is this is for preteens an teens.  Now you Bishop are a grown man, w/ analytical skills.  But this is talking about 12-17 yr olds who, it's been proven don't even have that part of their brain, that can weigh long term consequences, completely developed yet.  Very impressionable.  Where you will not automatically imagine having magical powers when you get angry at your boss, a child would and thus be more susceptable to entertain that idea, and then the spirits.

I have went round and round w/ the difference between Mary Poppins and Harry Potter.  And my, maybe temporary conclusion, is that of Lot's course.  Not every idea or concept is evil of itself.  God, the most creative being, created us in His image, which I believe = we also have creativity.  However, at some point, Lot went from going w/ Abram to offering his daughters to Sodomites.

The seduction is so very subtle.  Call me inconsistant but a rare watch of Mary Poppins that I explain it's pretend and made to be silly is something I cannot in good conscience say of Harry Potter.   It seems to pull at a person's greater depth, or it "feels" more real.  And I believe, it is, that there are spiritual seduction attempts to pull the reader into that world and make it their reality than that of Snow White, Cinderella, ect.  Plus, it's not just a movie here or there, it's like consuming our culture.  I see a huge difference and yet you are right, there is a connection that both are "magic."

You may think I'm crazy that after recently watching 2 popular movies, discerned a specific spirit of witchcraft.  I wasn't scared whatsoever, but it had no place in my home and we kicked it out.  Perhaps that makes me seem weak to be so impressionable, but maybe just maybe there is a spiritual agenda that attempts to manipulate our spirits into giving it a place blindly.  We may have the Holy Ghost, but we do not understand all things spiritual yet.  I do believe that what we take read and watch and listen to does affect our spirits.  What profit is there entertaining such ideas that are at the very least unclean?  Even if it's simply lust.  If it is the same spirit of Mary Poppins that is in Twilight then it has gained influence to reveal it's truer ugliness.  If nothing else, I can recognize it now rather than never.  Was there ever such a cult following of Mary Poppins of any age?  Was it saturated w/ other things like lust, death, immortality, gore, hiding in the darkness?  I think those are significant differences to take into consideration.

anyway, my 2 ยข

Scott

I did not listen to it, but having heard many of these type of commentaries, I can no doubt figure out what he is against.

Not going to say he is wrong, just can pretty much guess.

Please remember that every generation had books that were not considered ''Christian appropriate'' and Twilight is the current  batch that incudes Harry Potter , Ann Rice and a plethora of other books over the years.

The Bottom line is that Parents need to pay attention to what their kids are reading and should never be shocked to find out that little johnny or sally is reading THAT!

My wife or I read what our kids read or have read.

Keith can tell you that most of the books he read were handed to him by my wife or I AFTER we read them. Usually it was... ''hey kid, this was a cool book, you will like it''.

Isaac tends to lend towards technical manuals, history books and reference materials and Comic Books.

In our house books are read openly, and anyone can and will pick up a book you are reading and any time read it out loud.  With that kind of openness, we know who is reading what and if it is appropriate.  Keith to this day will walk in, pick up a book I am reading and read a page or two out loud and then question me about the book. Some times he will ask to read it next.

Parents make reading an open subject,  let YOUR reading be open, let YOUR KIDS question what you are reading as well as you question theirs.

Set rules and standards (oooo that word) and abide by them, and not just your kids, YOU abide by them too.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." (Vader)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf (Orwell and Churchhill)


The Never Ending Battle

Melody

Amen Scott.

We already have been that way w/ reading and now the conviction to also do that w/ movies.  We don't own anything they can't watch.

Scott

Too often we want the church, pastors and religious leaders to tell us how to parent and what to do and not do with our kids. The bottom line is they are our responsibility and we have to do what is right. I've found that the best thing to do is use common sense and red pepper spray.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." (Vader)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf (Orwell and Churchhill)


The Never Ending Battle

bishopnl

QuoteBut this is talking about 12-17 yr olds who, it's been proven don't even have that part of their brain, that can weigh long term consequences, completely developed yet.  Very impressionable.  Where you will not automatically imagine having magical powers when you get angry at your boss, a child would and thus be more susceptable to entertain that idea, and then the spirits.

MY,
I appreciate the point you are trying to make here, but there are several reasons why I disagree with your assessment.  The first is that I believe in general that 12-17 year olds have the power to distinguish between magic as a literary device, and "magic" as a spiritual practice.  While I understand that children in America mature at a later age now, I do think they still possess critical thinking skills and generally (obviously there are probably exceptions to every rule) can be expected to distinguish between fantasy and reality.  I doubt many 12 year olds believe in dragons or magic wands. 

The second is that children should know the limitations of their child.  Some children may not be capable of handling certain literary works.  You, as the parent, should be able to make the determination as to the maturity level of your child.

As for Mary Poppins...you say Harry Potter "feels more real" while Mary Poppins is a lighter treatment.  But this misses the point that they are both dealing with the same subject matter...Harry Potter is a more serious treatment of fictionalized magic, but both use "magic" to accomplish goals.  Just because one is (for the most part) geared towards teens and the other is for children doesn't change the fact that the subject matter is essentially the same.

You also ask: "Was there ever such a cult following of Mary Poppins of any age?  Was it saturated w/ other things like lust, death, immortality, gore, hiding in the darkness?"

I don't know that the size of the following makes any difference in regards to the acceptability of something, but I did acknowledge that the obsession with Twilight has troubling things to say about society.  I'm a huge sports fan, but I feel the same way with some people's obsession with sports.  So this argument in no way can be limited to Twilight.

As for the list of faults...many "acceptable" childhood fairy tales do deal with issues of death, immortality, lust, and darkness.  Just last semester I took a class on childhood lit and film, and you would be surprised how many serious subjects are addressed in works like Beauty and the Beast or Alice in Wonderland.  They may be more subtle than Twilight, but they are there.  As for Twilight...the "lust" takes a backseat to restraint, something that even Mark Driscoll acknowledges (although he promptly explains it away).  I don't see an issue with teen literature dealing with serious topics, as long as it does so in a reasonable and responsible way.

QuoteThe Bottom line is that Parents need to pay attention to what their kids are reading and should never be shocked to find out that little johnny or sally is reading THAT!

I think this sums up pretty much how I feel.  It's ultimately a parents responsibility to decide what their kids should be ingesting. 

I wouldn't presume to tell other people how to raise their children.  I do scratch my head sometimes at what seem to me to be inconsistencies, but in the end, you are responsible for the spiritual welfare of your child, and you should not take that lightly.
~Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.~
- Mark Twain, a Biography

~There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.~

- James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788

Sis

I've talked to lots of kids in that age range. Those from stable homes think differently than those who aren't. Those who feel like they have so little control over anything in their lives are the ones who search out WICCA as a solution to finding that control.

If you were raised in a stable home, you may not even understand what the others are  thinking or searching for. When these kids read there MAY BE something they can do to get that control over their own lives, they may try what they can to gain it.


bishopnl

I don't know that there is any significant number of kids turning to Wicca as a result of reading Harry Potter or Twilight.  Some, possibly...although I remain skeptical.  Further, many factors go into the choices a person makes, and just because they develop misconceptions about a work of literature doesn't make the work of literature wrong.  I've seen nothing to suggest that Stephenie Meyers or JK Rowling wrote these books as a propagation of wicca or true witchcraft.  The books use fictional magic and/or supernatural elements, things like vampires, werewolves, magic wands and flying cars...things that don't exist in the real world.  They are simply literary elements used to tell a story, and contain little resemblance to the practice of true witchcraft.
~Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.~
- Mark Twain, a Biography

~There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.~

- James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788

Scott

I cannot say that Harry Potter and Twilight turn people to Wicca or not. I do know that I was sitting in a group of Comic Book Writers recently who are tired of the Magic / Occult / Vampire books that are out there.  These people said that these books are making this stuff  seem fun and desireable.

There is a web page in which a supposed ex Witch writes about Harry..

http://www.pacinst.com/witch.htm

QuoteThe first book of the series, entitled "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone", finds the orphan, Harry Potter, embarking into a new realm when he is taken to "Hogwart's School of Witchcraft and Wizardry." At this occult school, Harry Potter learns how to obtain and use witchcraft equipment. Harry also learns a new vocabulary, including words such as "Azkaban", "Circe", "Draco", "Erised", "Hermes", and "Slytherin"; all of which are names of real devils or demons. These are not characters of fiction!

Is this true or not? 

Circe and Hermes are names from Greek Mythology for sure, Draco is latin for Dragon ,  Erised is desire backwards and Slyterin sounds alot like slither (as in what snakes do).  Are they demon names?  I dunno.


Of course this person claims that Witches say '' may the force be with you''. I've known witches and wiccans, never heard that one before.

More from this same person

QuoteHigh level witches believe that there are seven satanic princes and that the seventh, which is assigned to Christians, has no name. In coven meetings, he is called "the nameless one." In the Harry Potter books, there is a character called "Voldemort." The pronunciation guide says of this being "He who must not be named." On July 8 at midnight, bookstores everywhere were stormed by millions of children to obtain the latest and fourth book of the series known as "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire." These books were taken into homes everywhere with a real evil spirit following each copy to curse those homes. July 8th was also the 18th day (three sixes in numerology 666) from the witches' sabat of midsummer. July 8th was also the 13th day from the signing of the United Religions Charter in San Francisco.

Again, I dunno...


http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/harrypotter.html


Makes these statements...


QuoteYoung Harry is given a strange marking on his forehead. "Through the sacrificial goddess magic of his mother's love, baby Harry is saved and his blood is given magical powers. Unable to kill Harry, in revenge, Voldemort sears a death curse of a lightning bolt on Harry's forehead." [3] (Some have criticized the imagery behind the lightning bolt itself [4].) Rowling, a graduate of Exeter University in England, is very familiar with occultic practices, using elements and philosophies behind "pagan religions, celtic religions, the religions of the druids, witchcraft, [and] satanism." [5]


Quote"J.K. Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter series, has gone through an awful lot of research. She is very accurate (otherwise we would have witches all over the country and the world saying 'this is not a true representation of our religion'.) This is a true representation of witchcraft, and the black arts, and black magic. And yet we have people that say this is merely fantasy and harmless reading for our children. Actually, what makes this more dangerous is that it is couched in fantasy language, and children's literature, and made to be humorous, and beautifully written and extremely provocative reading. and it just opens up children to want to have the next one. This is what is so harmful." [12]


QuoteWhile some practicing Wiccans flatly deny any link between Potter's world and theirs [26], the evidence is undeniably clear that Potter promotes an interest in magic and the occult. Parents, whether Christian or not, must take an active role in what their children are being exposed to and determine what is appropriate. Christians especially should be guided by God's Word, the Bible.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." (Vader)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf (Orwell and Churchhill)


The Never Ending Battle

acts2believer

I just think that parents really should research what their kids read and watch. I mean you dont let your kids get on the internet without monitoring what they do , Why should it be different with Books and Tv ???.... :question:

Scott

It is not easy being a parent, you have to make choices and decisions that are not always popular. It can be a thankless job at times. And there is one thing that will anger a parent to no end.... a non parent coming up to them and telling them how to parent.  GRRR

It is like a catholic priest discussing marriage with you...... :pound:

If there is one thing that I can stress to those of you without children, please do not try to tell parents how to parent or give parenting advice.... trust me,  you will not make friends among parents.

One gal used to tell me how to parent my kids all the time. She constantly tried to correct my kids, tell me how to correct my kids and how to raise them. Roll forward a few years, this same woman now a mom, frazzled, whiney, crying came to me for parenting advice.  I wanted to tell her that since the knew it all before kids, she should have all the answers.  God stopped me and I sat down with her and talked about some things.

Oh... don't let sis sit in the back seat of your car with your kids and a hammer. She will hit them. :rotfl:
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." (Vader)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf (Orwell and Churchhill)


The Never Ending Battle

(R.I.P.) YooperYankDude

I heard someone say something in a message once about the only perfect parents... are the ones who have yet to actually have kids! (Same goes for perfect spouses... lol) Cause parents are people too... and mistakes happen.

I specifically decided not to try and correct other peoples kids... ESPECIALLY when their parents are anywhere nearby... unless... one is in imminent danger of hurting themselves or someone else... but even then... I usually simply go to the parent and let them know there is something going on... and not for every little thing either...

No parent wants to feel like someone is singling out their kids when issues come up... and face it... kids are kids... and I was a kid once... so compassion and patience is definitely something to have around children.

And I have heard the stories of singles or even married folks who do not have kids... looking at someone else's kids and saying "My kids will never do or be like that..."  and all I have heard so far is that those are famous last words. So those are words I have decided never to utter... lol.

As far as reading material goes... each parent needs to remember their roles in their childrens lives... and take it at face value... that is all I have to say on that... lol... see above comments for my reasons... :)


Feed The Bachelors 2010

Scott

"I find your lack of faith disturbing." (Vader)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf (Orwell and Churchhill)


The Never Ending Battle

Sis

Quote from: Scott on September 09, 2010, 06:23:00 AM
Oh... don't let sis sit in the back seat of your car with your kids and a hammer. She will hit them. :rotfl:

Only in self defense.


bishopnl

The wonderful thing about the internet is that you can find anyone who will say anything.  The other day, i broke one of the new "energy efficient" light bulbs in my house.  I got on the internet, and found scores of websites telling me I could expect to die of mercury poisoning within a few days, all with "experts" willing to back it up.  I threw it in the trash, put the trash bag outside, and a few weeks later, I'm still here.  ;)

Everyone keeps reiterating the point:  Parents should research and take responsibility for what their kids watch, read, listen to, etc.   

And I agree.  The responsible thing to do is for parents to investigate for themselves.
~Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.~
- Mark Twain, a Biography

~There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.~

- James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788

Sis

So if you die in 20 years, we can blame that lightbulb for it, right?


bishopnl

Quote from: Sis on September 09, 2010, 11:15:00 PM
So if you die in 20 years, we can blame that lightbulb for it, right?

Or my refusal to give up double cheeseburgers. ;)
~Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.~
- Mark Twain, a Biography

~There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.~

- James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788

Scott

I loved to read Dr. Seuss to my kids, I am firmly convinced that he wrote those books while dropping acid!
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." (Vader)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf (Orwell and Churchhill)


The Never Ending Battle

(R.I.P.) YooperYankDude

Quote from: Scott on September 10, 2010, 02:27:13 PM
I loved to read Dr. Seuss to my kids, I am firmly convinced that he wrote those books while dropping acid!
Lol!  I love just reading Dr. Seuss in general... and I dont even have kids yet...!   :biglaugh:


Feed The Bachelors 2010

Scott

Gair under the Stair, neps under the steps, wocket in pocket......... :laughhard:
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." (Vader)

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf (Orwell and Churchhill)


The Never Ending Battle

Sis

Check out the Hoober Bloob highway. That's what the Mormon's preach.


Heather

i'm rereading all the Harry Potter's right now. doesn't make me want to be wiccan. [they don't sacrifice goats or worship satan either.]
Keep it simple. Just love Jesus. -Sister Ali

Nelle

I was searching for books for my friend's daughter Kaylee (2yr old) who LOVES books. One of Dr. Seuss' books looked great until I opened it up to look at it. I was like.. She needs to advance her vocab, noooot hinder it by learning those "words!" lol..