Barack Obama is the 44th president of the USA

[titushome]

before i went into labor, i was talking to the nurses asking them what sort of situations they had seen. i was told that some babies were born with just a body - no head. they mentioned some babies just being born with an arm, no head, no torso an arm. in those situations - its not that the parent does not value the life of their baby - that absolutely was not the case for me - but asking the mother to continue carrying a child that she is going to have to bury after birth is mentally cruel.(and i'm talking about 0% chance of life expectancy, not situations where the child will be born with a birth defect or has a greater chance of life expectancy.)

I understand your situation, and I'm extremely sorry for your loss, and I agree that there's a world of difference - really there's not even a comparison - between a baby that has any kind of defect, and one that is already dead or is missing body parts such that life is impossible.  In those rare cases, I agree that the baby's body should be removed from the mother's womb if she chooses.

[Chérie]

thanks - and i'm not posting all this to gain sympathy.

i've always been a big supporter of women's rights. i remember three of four years ago on this forum saying that i could never have an abortion under any circumstances, but that i still supported a woman's right to choose....

i do believe that abortion is misused and abused, but i also think that the word abortion has been perverted by those who see it as an easy means of birth control and there is so much more to it... and its certainly not just an easy decision that anyone comes to.

9 times out of 10 i am going to argue that adoption is the best method, but a woman should still have that right to choose - mainly because i do not believe it is the right of the government to tell me what to do with my body.

[titushome]

9 times out of 10 i am going to argue that adoption is the best method, but a woman should still have that right to choose - mainly because i do not believe it is the right of the government to tell me what to do with my body.

I really appreciate your stance, but there's more than your body at stake.  I agree that it's wrong for the government to tell a woman what she can do with her body, but I do believe the government should be able to prohibit a woman - with rare exceptions - from ending the life of a baby growing inside her.  It's no different from the government prohibiting murder by any other means.

[Brother Dad]

thanks - and i'm not posting all this to gain sympathy.

i've always been a big supporter of women's rights. i remember three of four years ago on this forum saying that i could never have an abortion under any circumstances, but that i still supported a woman's right to choose....

i do believe that abortion is misused and abused, but i also think that the word abortion has been perverted by those who see it as an easy means of birth control and there is so much more to it... and its certainly not just an easy decision that anyone comes to.

9 times out of 10 i am going to argue that adoption is the best method, but a woman should still have that right to choose - mainly because i do not believe it is the right of the government to tell me what to do with my body.

I would not argue with you about it not been the right of the government to tell a woman what she should do with her body.  Nor will I argue with equal rights.  What I do take offense to is the fact that tax dollars can be used for it.  There are many medical needs that medicaid will not cover. 

[Melody]

I don't understand the idea that aborting the child is somehow better than going full term and then having a funeral.  As if somehow the loss is less.  A life is a life.  That's what the world is not getting.  Abnormalities, diseases, etc.  It's still a person.

and it was just established that where the doctors say "can't" God can and often does.  So why cut God short on the, even if minute, possibility that He can do a miracle?  To avoid more heartache?  Isn't it heartache either way?  Like Sis said, often times the body will pass the baby itself.

Seems all these reasons have one thing in common.  They take God out.  Because if they left God in, not just in prayers but in action, anything would be possible and more lives would be saved, and turn out far better than expected!  And if the baby died, whether in or out of the womb, one thing would be certain... that it was God that took the life and not man.

I understand with Chérie here that this  post may be insensitive, if it is, please delete it, for I am not really concerned with what is done and past and unchangeable as much as I am how many more babies are brutally killed under such perspectives.

And I contend continuously, that the non-viable pregnancies that cannot be passed naturally are so few and far between that it does not validate the support of a concept that is primarily and overwhelmingly used to justify vanity and selfishness with murder.  It's not a fair trade off whatsoever.

[dnr1128]

I contend continuously, that the non-viable pregnancies that cannot be passed naturally are so few and far between that it does not validate the support of a concept that is primarily and overwhelmingly used to justify vanity and selfishness with murder.  It's not a fair trade off whatsoever.

And for every such case where the mother chooses to abort the baby, there are others that have chosen to continue the pregnancy and let God make the decision.  I know of one such case in my wife's family;  the little baby was born with only part of her skull, and very little brain matter.  The doctors said she wouldn't be born alive.  She was, and lived for over a year, showed some signs of mental activity, and was a joy to her parents before she passed on. 

Fact is, there aren't any cases that I can come up with where it is justifiable to kill your own baby.   But, if worship of self is the point, then it's ok to sacrifice a child on the altar.

[titushome]

Fact is, there aren't any cases that I can come up with where it is justifiable to kill your own baby.   But, if worship of self is the point, then it's ok to sacrifice a child on the altar.

The only cases in which I think it might be justifiable are those in which the mother's life is at stake.  If it's literally a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the baby, then, as much as I hate to say it, I don't think the government, the doctor or anyone else has the right to make that choice for the parents.

But with modern medical technology being the way it is, these sorts of cases are truly exceptionally rare.  And I know that if my wife and I found ourselves in this position, we would do all we could to save the baby's life, and leave my wife in God's hands.  But I don't think we can make this choice for everyone.

[Chérie]

Fact is, there aren't any cases that I can come up with where it is justifiable to kill your own baby.   But, if worship of self is the point, then it's ok to sacrifice a child on the altar.

it really saddens me that you're so ignorant to make such statements. i'm happy that the world is all black and white where you live.

[Sis]

Fact is, there aren't any cases that I can come up with where it is justifiable to kill your own baby.   But, if worship of self is the point, then it's ok to sacrifice a child on the altar.

The only cases in which I think it might be justifiable are those in which the mother's life is at stake.  If it's literally a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the baby, then, as much as I hate to say it, I don't think the government, the doctor or anyone else has the right to make that choice for the parents.

But with modern medical technology being the way it is, these sorts of cases are truly exceptionally rare.  And I know that if my wife and I found ourselves in this position, we would do all we could to save the baby's life, and leave my wife in God's hands.  But I don't think we can make this choice for everyone.

If the baby is big enough to cause that kind of problem, they can deliver it and try to keep it alive. Whether birth canal or C-section. They don't need to KILL it, they can do both, save the mother and the child.

[dnr1128]

Fact is, there aren't any cases that I can come up with where it is justifiable to kill your own baby.   But, if worship of self is the point, then it's ok to sacrifice a child on the altar.

it really saddens me that you're so ignorant to make such statements. i'm happy that the world is all black and white where you live.

Under what circumstances IS it justified in your opinion to end the life of a baby?  Don't just quote a bunch of rhetoric, but give me specific circumstances, accompanied by your reasoning, where it is permissible and acceptable to abort a living baby.

[Chérie]

Fact is, there aren't any cases that I can come up with where it is justifiable to kill your own baby.   But, if worship of self is the point, then it's ok to sacrifice a child on the altar.

it really saddens me that you're so ignorant to make such statements. i'm happy that the world is all black and white where you live.

Under what circumstances IS it justified in your opinion to end the life of a baby?  Don't just quote a bunch of rhetoric, but give me specific circumstances, accompanied by your reasoning, where it is permissible and acceptable to abort a living baby.

my situation for one. my baby was given 0% chance of survival. no skull, no brain. the dr believed she would probably die in the womb. yes she had a heartbeat, but she couldn't even move. when i thought that i felt her kicking inside of me, it was the fluid in the uterus causing her to bump up against me. she is absolutely the most precious and perfect thing that i have ever done, but we  made a decision at the time, based on our knowledge, based on what my family believed, his family believed, and with the support of the pastor of my parent's church and my church family. (and yes they are very much saved and prolife in most situations)

initially i was totally against the very idea. in my mind, i imagined an abortion being performed in some dirty clinic where they throw the babies in the trash afterwards. i had no idea that terminating a pregnancy thru induced labor was even possible. i was in labor for 2 days just so i could hold my baby, afterwards we had her cremated.

after seeing pictures (and i've posted a link from google - its somewhat graphic) i believe i made the right decision. Hannah was absolutely beautiful to us, but i know it would have been so much more difficult for everyone in my family to see her in this condition at 9 months gestation.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=anencephaly%20more%3Acondition_treatment&cx=disease_for_patients&ei=hIWVSaGaEIG4tweqk5mcCw&resnum=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

had there been even a 1% chance for her survival the whole situation would have been completely different. you make it sound like abortion is such an easy decision to make. it was not a convenience on my part. i live with the guilt every day that i was not healthy enough when she was conceived.

so yes, i do very much take offense to your statement of  "if worship of self is the point, then it's ok to sacrifice a child on the altar". i would have died for her and very much wanted to die.

i still love Hannah as much as much as you love your child, my only regret is that i did not get the time with her that other parents have been afforded.

[Sis]

But you are one person. 99% of abortions are to get rid of evidence of wrong-doing. You can't apply YOUR circumstance to the other people out there making decisions to get rid of good, healthy babies for convenience sake.

[Chérie]

i'm not. i'm appalled that women still use it as a form of birth control, especially with all the methods of preventing pregnancy that we have available today. i believe abortion is a vile practice, but there is a time when it is acceptable. and yes i agree, those situations are few and far between but they still happen.

dnr however does not believe that there is ever a time or circumstance that abortion is a viable medical procedure, and i am contesting that, and his theory that all women who have abortions are sacrificing their children on an alter of love for self.

[dnr1128]

dnr however does not believe that there is ever a time or circumstance that abortion is a viable medical procedure, and i am contesting that, and his theory that all women who have abortions are sacrificing their children on an alter of love for self.

And I stand by both statements.  In your account, you make the following statement: "...The doctor believed she would probably die in the womb..."  So what is the just cause for abortion?  Simply let nature terminate the pregnancy, or let God handle it. 

The VAST majority of abortions are indeed done by women who are seeking either to cover up their bad decisions, or to get rid of a child that they simply don't want.   The very few exceptions, such as yours, should be solved by letting God handle things.  He created the life, let Him end it. 

Even with your story, you haven't given any justifications for abortion. 

[titushome]

And I stand by both statements.  In your account, you make the following statement: "...The doctor believed she would probably die in the womb..."  So what is the just cause for abortion?  Simply let nature terminate the pregnancy, or let God handle it. 

It's easy to say "simply let nature terminate the pregnancy."  It's far more difficult, I imagine, for a woman to carry a dead or non-viable baby in her womb.  I think Danni made the right decision (not that she needs my consent).

[Sis]

Not to be judgemental, but that's about what my friends were told about their baby. He only had 1/3 of a brain. They kept trying to get the mother to abort. She left it in God's hands. The boy was born whole, healthy and smarter than most kids his age.

I know God doesn't do it in every instance, but ...............

[dnr1128]

I don't think anybody is saying that carrying a baby who has 0% chance of survival is easy;  but what we are saying is that it's better to leave the situation in God's hands than to opt for aborting a living child.  If the baby has already died, the mother can have a DNC to remove the body.  But, to abort a baby based purely upon a doctors assessment that the baby would probably not survive the pregnancy or not last long outside the womb isn't morally justified. 

[Sis]

Tell me if I'm wrong, I do believe she was saying, not that the baby was aborted, but they put her into early labor and not sure, live birth? Did the baby die afterward?

If that was the case, I woud in NO WAY call that an abortion.

[Chérie]

yes sis, i was induced.

she was still born, due to the stress of labor.

[Sis]

No way would I even think of that as abortion.

[Chérie]

It is and it isn't. I did some research on it, and its the rarest type of abortion used. I think if abortion is needed to be performed inducing labor is the only way to do it. Abortion clinics do not use this method, but if they did abortion rates would not be nearly as high.

After I lost Hannah, I had a coworker compare her grief over losing her baby that she had aborted in a clinic a few months earlier to mine and I was just completely appalled.

First of all, she had aborted a perfectly healthy baby, because it wasn't the right time with her boyfriend of 2 years. When Travis and I found out we were expecting, it was most certainly not the right time and had Hannah had any other sort of condition abortion would have never been an option. Secondly with her abortion she was more less put under, and didn't feel a thing. Simple easy and quick.

We were given the choice to go to a clinic and it certainly would have been less expensive, but I chose to have her in a hospital with my OBGYN because I wanted to hold Hannah and have her buried, and I felt like she deserved as much dignity as possible. It was the single most physically emotionally painful experience of my life, and totally worth it.

[Sis]

I still wouldn't call it an abortion. You shouldn't be carrying the same stigma that others who just get rid of healthy babies.

I think doctors would like to think of it as an abortion so they can justify the others. Calling it a therapeutic abortion eases their conscious but leaves the mother with a stigma for the world to think she's heartless. *Shakes head*

If I were you, I wouldn't use the term anymore. I'd just say that she was stillborn, or only that you lost her.

[Chérie]

I never really discuss it in depth with anyone except for my friends and family. I think with a forum there is still that sense of anonymity that just makes talking about it easier, but we would never discuss this in reality. We had a discussion in my rhetoric and compostion class last week about abortion vs women's rights, I couldn't bring myself to discuss it, nor would I want to in that type of situation. The experience is too sacred to discuss like that. Every once in a while someone will ask Travis about his tattoo, which is Hannah's name and her tiny foot prints, and we just tell them that we miscarried her.

The only reason I really argue it here, is there is a stigma that is associated with it especially among christian conservatives. As horrible as it is there are some cases where abortion is a necessary medical procedure to be used with sobriety and discretion. Roe vs Wade, abortion clinics, feminists, as well as lot of liberal lefties have hijacked a medical term and made it something ugly, that it wasn't supposed to be. The bottom line is abortion should never have been used as a form of birth control.

[Charlene]

How far along were you when you had this done??


I was just curious

[Melody]

I still wouldn't call it an abortion. You shouldn't be carrying the same stigma that others who just get rid of healthy babies.

I think doctors would like to think of it as an abortion so they can justify the others. Calling it a therapeutic abortion eases their conscious but leaves the mother with a stigma for the world to think she's heartless. *Shakes head*

If I were you, I wouldn't use the term anymore. I'd just say that she was stillborn, or only that you lost her.

I agree.  by your own words Cherie, you said you were induced and she was stillborn.  What Sis said about making the terms technical to justify others makes so much sense.  But had you started the conversation with that info, I don't think you would feel defensive for you or anyone else in your position because it's a completely different situation.  One that people would not consider as abortion in the first place.  Feel bad and defensive for those who have still born babies, not the ones like your friend.