Women in Leadership

[Melody]

Not sure if anyone is interested in a *nice* discussion about women in leadership.  I don't know if it's possible to keep it within the bounds of "under pastoral ministry" or not?

I'm hoping a Mod can move the posts in the sharing thread in here?   

Sometimes I'm convicted about how many things I take for granted.  This subject for instance, that I understand and know that I have the liberty to minister to others in many ways.  Even though I have never heard a Bible study specifically on it.  My pastor has taught on submission where he did explain that woman is not to submit to any and every man on earth just because he's a man.

[Raven180]

I'm game.

I would only start off by saying two things.

1.) There are passages in the Bible that are quite difficult to grasp regarding the issue and have not, in most instances, been successfully interpreted to any (or at least my) satisfaction. Therefore, we must tread delicately and with integrity to make sure we do no violence to the Scriptures.

2.) Sometimes I try to imagine an Apostle walking into my church with an interpreter. Would he sense the presence of God's Spirit? Would he feel welcome in the assembly? Would he agree to the order of the service? Would he accept the preaching/teaching as true? Finally, would he rebuke or correct us in any way for not following the Scriptures? Toward this end, I think it appropriate to consider how the Apostles believed and taught regarding the issue and what divine ordinances they would argue must be considered when thinking of women in leadership roles (and of course, what Bible they, and therefore we, have on the subject).

[Lynx]

Well these will be brought up eventually so let's get them out of the way now.

I Timothy chapter 2:11-15
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

I Corinthians 14:34-35
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Those who say women shouldn't do anything in the church refer to these a lot.  Problem is, they yank them out of context and quote them as stand-alone scripture verses.  But they're not stand-alone, they're in a chapter and must be taken in context.

[Melody]

I need to find some explaination of the context of that Psalm.  I've heard it, but I need something to reference.

Rom 16:1-2 And I commend you to Phebe our sister -- being a ministrant of the assembly that is in Cenchrea, that ye may receive her in the Lord, as doth become saints, and may assist her in whatever matter she may have need of you -- for she also became a leader of many, and of myself.

Can't remember what version that is.  The other versions say in the place of leader:

‎"succourer" προστάτις -prostatis.

1) a woman set over others
2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

the word is a derivitive of: προΐστημι -proïstēmi

1) to set or place before
    a) to set Over
    b) to be Over, to superintend, preside over
    c) to be a protector or guardian
       1) to give aid
    d) to care for, give attention to
       1) profess honest occupations

Deborah was a judge, I don't know that it can get more authoritive than that.  I also have pointed out to her that whatever capacity we are used in, we don't ever cease being a servant, and we are always in submission to the ministry of the pastor and Godly council/elders.

I keep in mind, for myself that though I may be in leadership or serve in a leadership capacity, I am, in no means, somebody at the "top" of anything.  Whatever I do is in submission of the leaders in my life. Wherever I am is because by God, the leadership in my life has seen fit to give me more responsibility and accountability.

God honours authority SO much, He waited for Pharoh to let His people go.  I have learned so much about authority in the last few years.  It truly is a precious thing and ordained of God.  I both see service on the platform as a form of leadership and more so a form of servanthood.  I don't take it lightly and neither is it about 'me.'

[Raven180]

I agree that those passages are the two "ten foot pole" passages. And yes, they are often cherry-picked even though they were not meant to stand alone without consideration of the rest of the context.

And context, in my opinion, is very difficult to establish. Phoebe, for instance. Aside from those two verses and some possible understanding from the Greek, we don't know anything else about her. Was she young and unmarried or elderly and widowed? We don't know, but that knowledge plays an important part in why she was deaconness in the church.

For example, 1 Timothy 5:9-11,

9. Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.
10. Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
11. But the younger widows refuse...

Here, the "number" is obviously the ministry. Some women are to be refused based on age, whereas others may be allowed into ministry, depending on their age and the lifestyle they have maintained over the years. But in either case, widowhood was the prerequisite.

So, was Phoebe a widow? Maybe she was. But we don't know, and never will, no matter how much we assume about her. Hence, the difficulty.

[Lynx]

Actually (as I understand it) "the number" was referring to the widows the church supported because they had no family to support them.  Again, context.  It would be stretching it very far to assume Phoebe was above 60 years of age.  Also, if we assume "the number" to be women in ministry... Only widows who are above 60?  That's a bit strict, not to mention wasteful of good talent in the younger women in the church.

There is a time specification though for people in general in ministry positions.  The Bible says don't let a new convert take such a position.

[Raven180]

Actually (as I understand it) "the number" was referring to the widows the church supported because they had no family to support them

Never read it that way before. Time to reconsider...

[titushome]

I Timothy chapter 2:11-15
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

I Corinthians 14:34-35
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

I'll share something I read once about these scriptures.  It was in a book on this very topic (a book which I happened to find lying about at SippinTea's house).

In the book, the authors contended that based on their understanding of Greek pronouns, and the context of the statements, and Paul's other writings, the words "woman" and "women" as used in these verses were not referring to women in general, but to one woman (in the first case) and to a particular group of women (in the second case), because they were speaking out of order, introducing false doctrine, and generally causing confusion among the other members of the church.  Paul was ordering them to remain quiet and refrain from teaching until they themselves had been properly taught.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.  The hard part for me in reading a book like that is I don't know Greek, so it's not like I can go check out the Greek manuscripts myself and evaluate their claims.

[sabellius]

Shalom Shalom


Titushome is correct about the correct teaching of Women due to the fact they are to TEACH the younger women.


Secondly to the person in which gave scriptures and stated that they are usually taken as stand alone but within books,chapters and verses.In truth the NT is just that ,Taken fully from the OT thus is subject to the foundation of teaching.Women are subject to there authority to teach and not over men except when men Fail to meet the expectations of obeying the law,then women use respect unto them as well still being under the Faithfull men.


Deborah only followed the SPIRIT of GOD where as it was GOD doing the works and never went against his own word.So it wasnt deborah doing the works but GOD himself.

[Scott]

The Old Testament had female priestess and prophtesses. One of the well known prophets was married to a prophetess. In each case that a prophetess was mentioned in the Old Testament, her husband was mentioned too.

One of the Apostles was taught by a female and her husband. A TEAM in the ministry.

There were female prophets in the New Testament!

[Lynx]

Deborah only followed the SPIRIT of GOD where as it was GOD doing the works and never went against his own word.So it wasnt deborah doing the works but GOD himself.

And with male prophets it was... who doing the works?  Same God, same works, same role the human plays.

[Scott]

I removed a post that was the very first post by a board member. It appeared to be an attempt to argue. That is not the best way to start out.

[Melody]

You know, since I posed this question, I have actually felt as though I have taken a big step back.  I have the choice to have influence if I want to, but it is a huge responsibility.  Sometimes it overwhelms me.  A soul is such a precious thing.  The Most precious thing on this earth.

Since I still have children at home and sisters that are searching and a husband to help, I can retract to those duties alone as my reasoning for not being more involved with others. 

Possibly I'm a coward. idk.

While it's rewarding when the people we invest in, grow, it's a huge... I don't even have the words... when they backslide.  It's very challenging to love personally, but not be discouraged personally.  I can speak abstractly on GP alot, but "IRL" when I give time both in prayer and in person with someone, I'm giving myself, really, even though it's from God.  So I think that maybe a chunk of me broke off and I'm kind of defective having an unsuccessful experience(s).  It's stupid really cause there have people that go on and grow and it blesses me that God let me give them something that may have planted or watered their walk.  But the ones that fall, boy.  It knocks the wind right out of you.

It really comes down to real ministry period, male or female.  There is always work to be done, there are always nay sayers and opposition. 

I'm teaching a Bible study to a lady who's boyfriend decided to stay last week for the lesson.  What do you do but teach the lesson?  God knows.  If God can keep my hubby's truck safe in the ghetto w/o his tools being stolen even, God will keep me. 

I had started the thread because I had picked up on how some are uncomfortable with an outspoken woman, as if a woman teaching or anything else in ministry isn't somehow still being in submission to their spouse, pastor and God most of all.  It isn't about me but of someone who is a mentor to me, who I cherish dearly.  And I wondered about it all.  There are times I do feel bold, though far and few.  And I don't want whatever I feel like God wants the other to recieve through me to be offensive.  I fumble enough with my words, and sometimes am blunt/longwinded... lol  I can't change my gender!

However, I've come to somewhat of a conclusion that some of those nay sayers are of pride really and gender is an easy out.  But I feel so low, honestly, I am not interested in "ministry" that comes with anything.  Lord, just let me help somebody so I can be profitable.  I have so little to offer God anyway, and I'm no Nona Freeman or Vesta Mangun so it's not like I have to worry about this subject really.  If I can just help, I will hope it's enough.

[Lynx]

While it's rewarding when the people we invest in, grow, it's a huge... I don't even have the words... when they backslide.  It's very challenging to love personally, but not be discouraged personally.  I can speak abstractly on GP alot, but "IRL" when I give time both in prayer and in person with someone, I'm giving myself, really, even though it's from God.  So I think that maybe a chunk of me broke off and I'm kind of defective having an unsuccessful experience(s).  It's stupid really cause there have people that go on and grow and it blesses me that God let me give them something that may have planted or watered their walk.  But the ones that fall, boy.  It knocks the wind right out of you.

Aye.  Now you know how your pastor feels.  And Sunday School teachers, at least the good ones.  And Children's Church teachers.  Sometimes you're  , sometimes you're  , sometimes both in the same day, or even the same hour. 

It can be hard on the system.  But it's soooo worth it. 

[Raven180]

Actually (as I understand it) "the number" was referring to the widows the church supported because they had no family to support them

Never read it that way before. Time to reconsider...

After considering it for some time, reading some other translations, and etc. I've come to the conclusion that Psalm's presentation of the verse in question is the correct one. I therefore retract the usage of this verse as it applies to the discussion/context regarding Phoebe.

It is clear, however, that Paul called Phoebe a deaconess (at least in the Greek) so, if she was married at the time, it would be hard (for me at least) to reconcile that fact, if in fact it be fact, with what Paul taught Timothy, here:

1 Timothy 3:8-13,

8. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9. Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

It would seem to me that if Phoebe was married, it might be hard for her to meet the Biblical requirements of her deaconate, considering the above. Not ruling anything out. Just saying.

[Raven180]

Another thought comes to mind (derived from MY's most recent comments)

Is leadership the same as ministry?

To me ministry is service. Being a servant and abasing one's self to take up the cross and put others first, is called for upon every believer, male or female. It's a universal application.

But is leadership the same as that? I'm not convinced that it is. While it's true that those who would be the greatest must become the least, and that those who would rule (i.e. lead) must become those who serve, but it's not automatically the case, in our churches, that one equals the other.

What does everyone else think?

[Raven180]

Final thought for the day:

My wife takes her God-given charge seriously, as ordained in the passage below:

Titus 2:3-5,

3. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4. That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5. To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

For her, this is her highest calling. Although she sings in the praise team and is in charge of our drama ministry, those things come second or not at all if they at all interere with her duties as wife/mother. For her, there is nothing more spiritual for her to do than to be my helper in what I do in the ministry. I'm not saying that to boast. Just trying to present how we are, accurately.

Right now, I'm on the pastoral leadership team; I am the Sunday School Director, Spanish Ministry Overseer, and Head Usher, not to mention New Convert class instructor, and other duties as needed. So for my wife, seeing my involvement, she does everything she can to make sure, that as my God-given helper, my service to God in the church comes first. I DO NOT FORCE the issue. She chooses, out of her own convictions, to be this way.

In my family seminars that I teach, I make the point that many families are out of order in their roles, and that one of the worst things is when parents are so "church-busy" that their own family suffers neglect. Churches all over the place have lost kids running around in the youth group, Sunday Schools, etc. and their parents spend more time ministering to others, teaching Bible studies to everyone else, trying to win and convert everyone else while their own children (not the very young, but the old enough, accountable to God, ones) sit every service on the pews on their way to you know where.

Yes, it's one of my more delicate subjects, and I won't go off too much here. But it leaves me to wonder if parents, both fathers and mothers, are out of order and not fulfilling their 1st responsibility, which is to their families. And if a husband is in leadership and they have kids, and the wife also is very church-busy with ministry, then who is losing out? It's their kids.

So, in such a situation, can a woman (or women) fulfill Paul's requirements as given in Titus successfully (love husbands, love kids, be keepers at home, obedient to their own husbands, and etc.) if she is also taking on major leadership responsibilities, like say a pastorate, or preaching duties, etc.?

I'm not convinced it can be done properly, but I'm also willing to be convinced otherwise. For now, though, I don't see how a wife can be obedient to her own husband, and then be over him in positional authority in the church.

But to me, the unmarried is a different situation altogether...