Racist or Not: Their Poor Children

[bishopnl]

What troubles me is the thought that the NJ Family Services might use some sort of argument that the kids were being mentally or socially abused due to the parents choice of names or lifestyle.

If this is the case, every person involved with the removal of those children should be fired and never allowed to work for the state of New Jersey again. 

[Sis]

Well, they're not saying WHY they did it. We can only assume at this point.

[Brother Dad]

What troubles me is the thought that the NJ Family Services might use some sort of argument that the kids were being mentally or socially abused due to the parents choice of names or lifestyle.

If this is the case, every person involved with the removal of those children should be fired and never allowed to work for the state of New Jersey again. 

Why should something you don't know to be the case bother you.  Maybe there really are things that they can discuss at this time.  I would agree they should not be removed because of the parents personal views, but until I know more of the facts I don't feel I can be bother by the actions.  But I know I can be bother by the fact they try to hide behind equal rights while embracing a cause that stands against them.

[bishopnl]

Anytime the government tramples upon the rights of its citizens, I'm bothered.  In this case, I trust the state of New Jersey less than I trust the neo-Nazi's or whatever they are.

If we were talking about an Apostolic family the state had removed with no explanation and no report of child abuse, would you be bothered?

[Brother Dad]

Anytime the government tramples upon the rights of its citizens, I'm bothered.  In this case, I trust the state of New Jersey less than I trust the neo-Nazi's or whatever they are.

If we were talking about an Apostolic family the state had removed with no explanation and no report of child abuse, would you be bothered?

I would be bother only if I knew the facts.  I too am against Government interfering where there is no cause.  I do not think the a person personal beliefs give the government a right to interfere.   However I also realize these child protection workers have a job to do and many times get the short end of the stick.  My statement is I am not going to be bothered until I get all the facts.  The police say they have had to go the home on many occasions.  So my statement has nothing to do with Nazis or Apostolics.  It has to with facts.  Not trying to say you are wrong for you feelings.  You are completely within your rights to feel however you may feel. 

[Newsman]

I support the removal of the children by Family Services, even if there is nothing more unusual about the situation than has already come to light.

It's not about the right of parents to name their children, but when they give children names almost certain to cause the children hardship and at least mental pain, then they are committing child abuse.

No one reading enough WWII books (and I have read many, my B.A. is in History, and German WWII is a special area of knowledge for me,) without recognizing (even if one twists facts into thinking Hitler was some kind of admirable person,) that giving a child that name to carry is sure to cause them problems.

Hitler had a few qualities one could consider on the plus side-bravery (decorated in WWI, an often keen perception, the ability to convice others,) but he used them in a diabolical plan the likes the modern world, with the possible exception of Stalin, has failed to achieve. There were surely others as evil, but almost none that managed to realize so much of their plans.

Heinrich Himmler headed the SS for Hitler, and was possibly second in evil only to his master in the Third Reich. He donned a non-commissioned officer's uniform to try and escape near the war's end-but even then his arrogance had him wearing a senior SS sergeant's uniform, rather than a regular army (Wehrmacht,) or air force (Luftwaffe) one. To name a child Heinrich Himmler seems only because that was the most evil figure of the Third Reich name that the father hadn't already used in Adolf Hitler.


John

[Sis]

And next they won't like you naming your kids from the Bible. You know those Kool-Aid drinkers. They are the terrorists within. They bomb abortion clinics and they are all cults. We can't have their kids being named after Bible people. They will be ridiculed and made fun of by the other kids. They will be beat up on the playground.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

[bishopnl]

I would be bother only if I knew the facts.

I'm bothered that we DON'T know the facts.  And I could be bothered by the facts themselves, if and when they come to light.  When the state seizes children, I think they have a responsibility to state why they did so. 

It's not about the right of parents to name their children, but when they give children names almost certain to cause the children hardship and at least mental pain, then they are committing child abuse.

This is EXACTLY the argument that I'm referring to when I say I'm bothered by the actions of the state of New Jersey.

Suppose, for a minute, that the case in question dealt with, say, an Apostolic girl who had been removed from her home because her parents were forcing her to wear a skirt to school, which subjected her to ridicule from her peers.  Are Apostolics engaging in child abuse when they tell their kids they have to dress in a manner different from other kids, thus subjecting them to hardship and mental pain?

I don't think so.  It's the right of a parent to raise their child as they see fit, teaching them the beliefs and values that that parent holds dear.  If that means teaching your child that pants are for boys only, and girls shouldn't cut their hair, then that is your right.  If it means teaching your child that Nazi Germany was a great place and Hitler had the right idea, then I may not agree with you, but that is your right too.  And if we are to pick and choose who gets to keep their kids depending on which set of values we hold dear, how can we get upset when the state does the same thing? 

I'm against the state arbitrarily deciding that a parent only has the right to teach the kids a set of values that the state deems proper.  I don't know that that's the case here, but I am not willing to give the social workers the benefit of the doubt.  When the state comes and takes children away without any explanation, I fear that it may be abusing it's power.

Children being seized merely because of their name and their parents beliefs...it's one thing to name your kid after Hitler.  It's another thing to act like him.  And if the state is using the same argument you are here, then in my opinion, the state's actions are a lot closer to Hitler's than the parents are.

[Brother Dad]

The point is no one said they were removed because of their names.  They said it was a dangerous environment.  My point is why get all upset at the CPS when you don't know the story.  Without all the facts I can only vote in favor of the kids.  If the police had to be called to the home on several occasions because of domestic fighting, then they may have a real case.  Why get upset over something you don't know about.  

We give up more of our own rights, then the government takes away from us.  For instance prayer in school.  I know this from working in a public high school.  Prayer was never really taken out of school.  We believed a lie and gave it up.  What was taken out of school was school staff leading kids in prayer.  The student may prayer in school.  Most high schools even have a prayer club that meets every morning for devotions.  The school must by law allow them a room for this purpose.  student led prayers are very common on high school campuses. We misunderstood a lie listen to the devil and gave up our right to arm our kids with Bible studies and tools to reach the lost.  Yes the students may even teach a Bible study as long as they are not disrupting class time.  The students can organize a meeting with a preaching speaking as long as the staff does not organize it.  There is still religious freedom in our schools. and I don't know how you feel about, but I don't want a teacher that knows nothing about the God I serve trying to teach my kids about God.

My oldest son who is now 28 started a Pentecostal Prayer Club at the public high school he attended.  They already had a Christian prayer club, but because of the difference in belief the school had to provide him a space to hold his prayers and Bible studies.  To be unlearned in what the laws really say can cause us to lay down and become defeated.  

If you don't believe what I am  saying ask any lawyer or call the school system in your area.  As the ACLU which we all dislike so much.  You will find that what really happened is the court in powered the Church to teach our children the truth and send them to school loaded and ready to reach the lost without the school interfering.

Any way all to say we need to always get the facts before we stress out over it.      

[Brother Dad]

I would be bother only if I knew the facts.

I'm bothered that we DON'T know the facts.  And I could be bothered by the facts themselves, if and when they come to light.  When the state seizes children, I think they have a responsibility to state why they did so. 

Why should we know the facts before it goes to court?  Their are law that protect the parents privacy.  There are thing the officials can not disclose until they are in the court room.  Many times the police and other law enforcement look bad because they can not discuss their side while the criminals can spout off their side. 

[bishopnl]

The police said that they had never received reports of child abuse.  That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but at this point, DFYS is not saying what their reasons are.

As for why we should know, I think it's important because depending on the reasoning, it could set a dangerous precedent.  And all parents who might be affected by the reasoning of DYFS are owed an explanation of what reasons a state might give in seizing a child and separating him/her from his/her parents.

According to this news story, a DFYS spokeswoman says that the childrens names are NOT the reason.  Which is good.  But then, the spokesman for the police said:
"DYFS has their reasons and they normally don't release any information, so we kind of have to go on faith with them," Harris said. Police were not told what the agency was investigating.

I don't like going on faith when it comes to the government.   You seem to be comfortable with that.  I'm not.  I suppose we'll just have to disagree....I'm not out to prosletyze you to my particular brand of politics, I was just making the observation that it bothers me. You asked my reasons and I've given them.  I'm not asking you to feel the same way, I'm just telling you why I feel that way.

As for giving up rights, I agree...people do give up their rights.  I think the reasons many times are the same reasons being given here...trust that the government will do the right thing, and usually when rights are taken it starts with the rights of someone whose beliefs are generally deemed socially unacceptable.  But it never ends there.  That's my take on it.

As for prayer in public schools, if I had my way, there would be no public schools.  So the issue of prayer in them would be irrelevant.  But I've certainly never been under the impression that prayer wasn't allowed even by individual students....students in our school had a Bible study in the school library prior to the beginning of the day, and prayer was said at our graduation.  Apostolic kids weren't required to participate in classes like gym if their religious convictions were against it, and the school itself offered a course in studying the Bible as a work of literature. 

[Brother Dad]

I was using the point of prayer in school because I hear so many people say that they took God out of the schools.  When in reality they took God out of their homes and replaced him with TV, internet, and video games.  I am glad at least someone understands that prayer was not taken out of schools.   What would happen if we as Apostolic Christians realized the power the supreme court gave us back in the 1960's.  If we would equip our children with the tools to take the message to our campuses.   

[bishopnl]

What would happen if we shut down public schools altogether and let the state quit indoctrinating kids?

What would happen if we as Apostolic Christians realized the power the supreme court gave us back in the 1960's.

I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but I confess, I don't think the Supreme Court has given us anything.  I think the Supreme Court in it's current form has been warped constitutionally and is more interested in taking rights away from Christians rather than giving them rights.  When we consider the right to prayer in a public facility a right that the courts "gave" us, rather than our God given right and right as an American citizen, something is seriously wrong with the government.  That's my 2 cents, anyway.

[Sis]

As for giving up rights, I agree...people do give up their rights.  I think the reasons many times are the same reasons being given here...trust that the government will do the right thing, and usually when rights are taken it starts with the rights of someone whose beliefs are generally deemed socially unacceptable.  But it never ends there.  That's my take on it.

They have a pattern to take them away. First they harp on something that can be scary. Use Abortion, for example, they talked and talked about women having to carry babies to term that were handicapped, from rape or were dead. They had movies with that propaganda in them. About how horrible it was for women in back allies and practitioners using coat hangers. They usually take quite a bit of time to get people to see the horror in the situation. 

Then when the time comes, people are all for abortion becoming legal for "the sake of the baby" and "the health of the mother". In reality when the Roe V Wade went through, it was for any reason, not just for the health of the mother like people thought.

They use fear and propaganda to get people to give things up "for their own good." 

So we have a story about these kids for two months then they go in and take the kids. We are supposed to be with them. Poor kids with parents like that. UGHHHHH

Not only do people give up rights, there are teachers in schools that won't allow things like prayer in schools citing the first amendment. The first amendment says, they have no right to interfere with our practicing our religion. The whole thing bothers me.

[Brother Dad]

What would happen if we shut down public schools altogether and let the state quit indoctrinating kids?

What would happen if we as Apostolic Christians realized the power the supreme court gave us back in the 1960's.

I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but I confess, I don't think the Supreme Court has given us anything.  I think the Supreme Court in it's current form has been warped constitutionally and is more interested in taking rights away from Christians rather than giving them rights.  When we consider the right to prayer in a public facility a right that the courts "gave" us, rather than our God given right and right as an American citizen, something is seriously wrong with the government.  That's my 2 cents, anyway.

The fact is the court took the prayer out of a complete ungodly group and said that the teachers could not indoctrinate our students with their beliefs.  The power was taken from the teacher and given to the students to prayer and teach Bible studies.  If all we do is sit around and belly ache about the government and never look for a way to use their rulings to spread the Gospel we are just whiners. 

We already had a right to pray in a public facility,  but the government stop the teachers from trying to teach our students about their views of God. 

My point again is use what we have to spread the Gospel.

[Brother Dad]

We will sit and complain about what the government is doing or will we try to do something to change it.

[Sis]

Well, a few things that happened to people I knew...

One student was praying over her lunch. The teacher came over and told her she was never to do it again. Prayer was no longer allowed in school. The next day she tried to pray without bowing her head and she was sent to the principal's office and didn't get lunch.

A student was going to a Bible study at someone's house AFTER school. He brought his Bible to school, quietly placed it in his locker and didn't bother anyone about it. The principal told him that he couldn't bring it back to school or he would get suspended. That they couldn't have one in school   because of the first amendment.

A girl wanted to start a Bible study after school in one of the rooms. She was told she couldn't. Her mother went to the school board. They said she couldn't. Her mother went to the Burrean (Sp) league. They brought it to court and won that one.

The school system was selling off some of their buildings that they weren't going to use anymore. A Christian school wanted to buy it. They wouldn't say it to the Christian school.

We may SAY we have all these rights, but there are school systems all across the country that won't allow things that we are supposed to be allowed to do..

Check out www.EagleForum.org  Look at the Education News Letter. You will find loads more.

[bishopnl]

Bro. Dad,

I'm not sure that teachers across the country were using the school prayers to proselytize kids to their particular brand of faith.  I won't say that it never happened, but I have a hard time believing that was a real issue.

As for whining about the government, I agree.  But I don't just sit and whine.  I've written to both my Representative and US Senator expressing my feelings on various issues, and I've voted against both of them, too.  At the same time, I appreciate people who voice their displeasure publicly, whether it's on a radio show, a blog, or this board, because it helps others become aware of issues facing citizens today. 

That said, I think we're just going around in circles.  If you think I'm an idiot because I don't trust the Supreme Court or the state of New Jersey, so be it.  I don't feel like arguing about it.

[Brother Dad]

Well, a few things that happened to people I knew...

One student was praying over her lunch. The teacher came over and told her she was never to do it again. Prayer was no longer allowed in school. The next day she tried to pray without bowing her head and she was sent to the principal's office and didn't get lunch.

A student was going to a Bible study at someone's house AFTER school. He brought his Bible to school, quietly placed it in his locker and didn't bother anyone about it. The principal told him that he couldn't bring it back to school or he would get suspended. That they couldn't have one in school   because of the first amendment.

A girl wanted to start a Bible study after school in one of the rooms. She was told she couldn't. Her mother went to the school board. They said she couldn't. Her mother went to the Burrean (Sp) league. They brought it to court and won that one.

The school system was selling off some of their buildings that they weren't going to use anymore. A Christian school wanted to buy it. They wouldn't say it to the Christian school.

We may SAY we have all these rights, but there are school systems all across the country that won't allow things that we are supposed to be allowed to do..

Check out www.EagleForum.org  Look at the Education News Letter. You will find loads more.

The problem here Sis is the people do not know their rights.  A teacher can not by law stop a student from praying over her lunch.  They can not stop a student from teaching a Bible study.  This is why people need to know their rights and stand up for them.  None of these in the list are legal actions for a Schools system. 

[Brother Dad]

Bro. Dad,

I'm not sure that teachers across the country were using the school prayers to proselytize kids to their particular brand of faith.  I won't say that it never happened, but I have a hard time believing that was a real issue.

As for whining about the government, I agree.  But I don't just sit and whine.  I've written to both my Representative and US Senator expressing my feelings on various issues, and I've voted against both of them, too.  At the same time, I appreciate people who voice their displeasure publicly, whether it's on a radio show, a blog, or this board, because it helps others become aware of issues facing citizens today. 

That said, I think we're just going around in circles.  If you think I'm an idiot because I don't trust the Supreme Court or the state of New Jersey, so be it.  I don't feel like arguing about it.

I would never stomp so low as to think you were an idiot for your personal feelings about the court or the government.  I don't trust government either.  But if the Church would mobilize on issues instead of fighting over which one of us is smarter or stronger in God's Word we can see a change.

I am unsure of your age, but with your feelings you may seriously consider placing yourself in a position where you have a voice in what happens.  Maybe you have I don't know, I know I have, gone to the State Capital.  Address the floors when they are having meetings.  Make yourself heard in a greater measure.  May or may not change things you will go away feeling a lot better about what you did about it.  If this sounds as arguing then I apologize.   

[bishopnl]

I've considered more involvement in the political scene, but currently I just don't feel that's God's will for my life.  I do what I can here...I've voted against politicians who abuse the Constitution and our rights and freedoms, I've written letters to several, and I am a donor to the Apostolic Coalition, which is essentially a lobbying group that represents a variety of Oneness Pentecostals.  The head is Jeff Snyder, a pastor here in St. Louis.

And, of course, I pray. 

[Brother Dad]

I've considered more involvement in the political scene, but currently I just don't feel that's God's will for my life.  I do what I can here...I've voted against politicians who abuse the Constitution and our rights and freedoms, I've written letters to several, and I am a donor to the Apostolic Coalition, which is essentially a lobbying group that represents a variety of Oneness Pentecostals.  The head is Jeff Snyder, a pastor here in St. Louis.

And, of course, I pray. 

Good I am glad you are doing something and by no means get out of the will of God.  But I feel a person with your passion could accomplish some positive things.   

[Sis]

The problem here Sis is the people do not know their rights.  A teacher can not by law stop a student from praying over her lunch.  They can not stop a student from teaching a Bible study.  This is why people need to know their rights and stand up for them.  None of these in the list are legal actions for a Schools system. 

I know that. Some of them do, but when they try to fight them, they stick together and won't allow it. As a parent who taught in my daughter's school, I've heard more than once, "What the parents don't know won't hurt us."

Not all parents have the money or the time to take these things to court, which is what some of them have to do because they DO  stick together, all the way up to the School Board.

I know we have these rights. Many parents know it too, but it takes time and money to fight it.

[Brother Dad]

The problem here Sis is the people do not know their rights.  A teacher can not by law stop a student from praying over her lunch.  They can not stop a student from teaching a Bible study.  This is why people need to know their rights and stand up for them.  None of these in the list are legal actions for a Schools system. 

Not all parents have the money or the time to take these things to court, which is what some of them have to do because they DO  stick together, all the way up to the School Board.

I know we have these rights. Many parents know it too, but it takes time and money to fight it.

There are agencies out there that will fight the cause for a Christian.  I can not remember the name of the one I used to hear on the radio all the time.  But they are there.  The problem also is people would rather sit back and not rock the boat. 

[Sis]

They are overloaded with cases and they will take the worst ones and the minor ones they have to let go. John Whitehead and the Burrean League is what most people think of first. There's too much of it. People are having trouble fighting it and just give up, or pull their kids out of school and either move them or home school them if they can.