Government, Taxes & Principles

[Melody]

Great to see you Chérie!

Yeah, I didn't really know the law about it until the 2nd one came.  I filled it out for the same reason, I do not want them coming to my house.  That'd probably put a flag on me anyway for future endeavors.

[The Cold Water Kid]

I filled out my census form; I was surprised by how simple and brief it was.

[The Cold Water Kid]

I'm not really convinced it's the place of the government to loan me money for college...

I didn't understand why the government does this until recently. It's to gain tax revenue. People who go to college tend to earn more and therefore pay more in taxes; it's the same principle behind why judges rarely give lengthy prison sentences to white collar criminals.

[bishopnl]

I'm not really convinced it's the place of the government to loan me money for college...

I didn't understand why the government does this until recently. It's to gain tax revenue. People who go to college tend to earn more and therefore pay more in taxes; it's the same principle behind why judges rarely give lengthy prison sentences to white collar criminals.

Sure, I understand WHY they loan it...Just don't find in the constitution the legality of loans to private citizens for the purpose of education. 

[The Cold Water Kid]

I think we both know that pure, strict adherence to the Constitution was lost long before we were born. It will never be regained; we have to move on and make the best of new realities.

[bishopnl]

I think we both know that pure, strict adherence to the Constitution was lost long before we were born. It will never be regained; we have to move on and make the best of new realities.

I agree with your first statement.  And the first part of the second statement.  As for the last part, I guess it depends on what "moving on" entails.  My personal opinion is that the country is slowly but surely heading for a split.  If so, I believe that is a positive thing (provided it can be done peacefully and amicably). If not, I'll continue to support people who believe in pure, strict adherence to the Constitution, few that there are.

[(R.I.P.) YooperYankDude]

I think we both know that pure, strict adherence to the Constitution was lost long before we were born. It will never be regained; we have to move on and make the best of new realities.

I agree with your first statement.  And the first part of the second statement.  As for the last part, I guess it depends on what "moving on" entails.  My personal opinion is that the country is slowly but surely heading for a split.  If so, I believe that is a positive thing (provided it can be done peacefully and amicably). If not, I'll continue to support people who believe in pure, strict adherence to the Constitution, few that there are.

By split you mean?

Interesting topics...

[bishopnl]

By split you mean?

Interesting topics...

A splintering of the country.  States dividing by regional or economic interests.  I don't believe the country can sustain the current ideological divide, not to mention the economic difficulties we will face in the next 15 to 20 years.

[The Cold Water Kid]

It usually takes hunger to spur a revolution. People might not be happy, but if they aren't hungry they're unlikely to do much about it.

[bishopnl]

It usually takes hunger to spur a revolution. People might not be happy, but if they aren't hungry they're unlikely to do much about it.

I think people's frustration is reaching a high enough level that a divide might be a possibility.  I'm not talking about a violent overthrow of the government.  I think people will likely just begin to advocate for more state independence, to the point where it becomes necessary for states to disassociate from the government. 

You could be right, though.  Many people can be placated if they get a few bones thrown their way.  And I'm afraid too many people believe the solution is just to replace the current party of power with the opposition. 

[titushome]

It usually takes hunger to spur a revolution. People might not be happy, but if they aren't hungry they're unlikely to do much about it.

It didn't take hunger to cause the split that led to the American Civil War.

[The Cold Water Kid]

It didn't take hunger to cause the split that led to the American Civil War.

Good point, but I'm talking about revolutions that succeed.

[The Cold Water Kid]

And I'm afraid too many people believe the solution is just to replace the current party of power with the opposition.  

bishopnl, you're obviously an intelligent man. That's clear from your posts. Why waste your time, your intellect, fighting battles that won't amount to a hill of beans come Judgment Day? Work within the system, corrupt though it may be, and benefit yourself, your family, and the Church. The man who brought me into the Church works in telecommunications; he's a wealthy man by most standards. He once told me the reason he had confidence in communications as a career is that the devil(s) will use worldwide communications; it has been prophesied. Instead of fighting for the perceivable, what could be accomplished if you stopped fighting against the inevitable?

[bishopnl]

And I'm afraid too many people believe the solution is just to replace the current party of power with the opposition.  

bishopnl, you're obviously an intelligent man. That's clear from your posts. Why waste your time, your intellect, fighting battles that won't amount to a hill of beans come Judgment Day? Work within the system, corrupt though it may be, and benefit yourself, your family, and the Church. The man who brought me into the Church works in telecommunications; he's a wealthy man by most standards. He once told me the reason he had confidence in communications as a career is that the devil(s) will use worldwide communications; it has been prophesied. Instead of fighting for the perceivable, what could be accomplished if you stopped fighting against the inevitable?

There is a difference between using technology in a godly fashion, and using government in a corrupt fashion in order to further advance the Kingdom of God.  Both technology and government can be used in corrupt fashions.  However, if I purchase air time and broadcast a commercial advertising my church, it is myself and my church who are responsible for both the content, and the financing of it.  We can choose how the money is spent, we can choose what to spend it on.  And if souls are saved, God is glorified.

By contrast, when using the government to say, feed the poor there are marked differences.  For one, the Church is not responsible for how the money is spent, meaning that in addition to feeding the poor, we also donate money to wage war or finance abortion.  Two, it's not our money.  We use the power of the police state to confiscate the money of others in order to accomplish our "charitable works." And three, God is not glorified.  The government is glorified, and they proclaim their goodness to the voters so they can be re-elected.  This is to say nothing of the fact that it is in violation of the supreme law of the land, the Constitution.

So, in answer to your question, I believe it is inherently immoral for the Church to advocate for the use corrupt means and excuse it by saying they are doing so to spread the Gospel.  God is not glorified in this, and it harms both the country and the Church.  As for "fighting the inevitable," it is inevitable that many people will reject Christ, but we shouldn't stop preaching Him.  Likewise, I won't stop advocating a return to a Constitutional republic, even if it's likely we are headed in the opposite direction.

[bishopnl]

Btw, I think I should make something clear.  You say "Work within the system..."  I think I've stated elsewhere I don't believe it's sinful for a person to benefit from the system, particularly if they are paying into it.  I know many people who have received financial assistance for whatever reason, and there is no moral obligation to refuse it.  You can at least be assured that THAT money will not be used for evil means. 

[titushome]

It didn't take hunger to cause the split that led to the American Civil War.

Good point, but I'm talking about revolutions that succeed.

Well, bishop predicted only that a split is likely coming to this nation in the near future - he didn't predict whether it would be successful.  That remains, assuming his prediction is accurate, to be seen.

[The Cold Water Kid]

I doubt the federal government will allow a split today, any more than it would during the Civil War. And the weapons it has at its disposal are far, far superior. If I remember correctly, the Gatling gun was invented to end the Civil War... it was new technology. Yes, it's technically illegal for the US Armed forces to operate on American soil, but the state National Guards can. Combine all this with the fact that the European countries are no longer a formidable military power; alliances with France or Brittan couldn't offer us the support needed; would the Chinese be called on for help? Highly unlikely, and considering how heavily invested they are in our economy I can't see that a Civil War would be in their best interests anyway... they probably want to help the Federal Government crush the resistance so the country could get back to business as usual. 

[bishopnl]

I doubt the federal government will allow a split today, any more than it would during the Civil War. And the weapons it has at its disposal are far, far superior. If I remember correctly, the Gatling gun was invented to end the Civil War... it was new technology. Yes, it's technically illegal for the US Armed forces to operate on American soil, but the state National Guards can. Combine all this with the fact that the European countries are no longer a formidable military power; alliances with France or Brittan couldn't offer us the support needed; would the Chinese be called on for help? Highly unlikely, and considering how heavily invested they are in our economy I can't see that a Civil War would be in their best interests anyway... they probably want to help the Federal Government crush the resistance so the country could get back to business as usual. 

I don't say that unequivocally a state would be allowed to leave, but I think the world is different today than it was in 1861.  The government has a hard time mustering public support for wars in foreign countries.  How much more difficult would it be if they were sending tanks into US cities and gunning down American citizens?  People reacting to the visuals would go berserk.  Video technology, live reports, the internet....and how would the rest of the world react to an American government they already distrust slaughtering its own citizens?  Further, many military members would refuse to take part...not too mention that the manpower of the Civil War came from volunteers and militias. I see it as doubtful that states would rush to support a government that many already loathe and distrust. 

Of course, the government could claim a "state of emergency," assume dictatorial powers, and shut down the media.  Then who knows what would happen. 

[(R.I.P.) YooperYankDude]

I doubt the federal government will allow a split today, any more than it would during the Civil War. And the weapons it has at its disposal are far, far superior. If I remember correctly, the Gatling gun was invented to end the Civil War... it was new technology. Yes, it's technically illegal for the US Armed forces to operate on American soil, but the state National Guards can. Combine all this with the fact that the European countries are no longer a formidable military power; alliances with France or Brittan couldn't offer us the support needed; would the Chinese be called on for help? Highly unlikely, and considering how heavily invested they are in our economy I can't see that a Civil War would be in their best interests anyway... they probably want to help the Federal Government crush the resistance so the country could get back to business as usual. 

I don't say that unequivocally a state would be allowed to leave, but I think the world is different today than it was in 1861.  The government has a hard time mustering public support for wars in foreign countries.  How much more difficult would it be if they were sending tanks into US cities and gunning down American citizens?  People reacting to the visuals would go berserk.  Video technology, live reports, the internet....and how would the rest of the world react to an American government they already distrust slaughtering its own citizens?  Further, many military members would refuse to take part...not too mention that the manpower of the Civil War came from volunteers and militias. I see it as doubtful that states would rush to support a government that many already loathe and distrust. 

Of course, the government could claim a "state of emergency," assume dictatorial powers, and shut down the media.  Then who knows what would happen. 

I am a former military member, and from the point of view of someone who has served, and knowing why I joined... I would tend to say that MOST of the Men and Women in uniform would refuse to fire on American Civilians...

I joined to serve and protect my home... and my loved ones... from dangers domestic and abroad!

There are many, many people in the US who are involved with the militia, they do have a lot of power, and if they all pooled together, they could cause quite a bit of damage... but I don't think they would be fighting American troops though, I personally think that it would be foreign mercenary troops they would be fighting and worrying about firing on Americans.

But a lot of this is all conjecture, because it would mean the loss of more American lives, and upheaval of society as we are used to it... most people are not willing to put their money where their mouths are... I did, I joined the USAF... and when others were trying to get out of their BT dates, because of 9/11, I was asking if there was anyway to leave sooner! I was put out on a medical discharge against my will for Asthma... not given a choice!

This country is in need of something that it most likely will not get, most people forget what the Constitution says...
So honestly, I don't know that there is an answer...