Apostolic Truth Questions

[onli-one-jehovi]

Ok John. Calm down.

I got your belief.

Acts 2:38 & Dt 6:4 or Hell.

Got it!  Writing it down for the future, so I do not wonder again.

Thanks.

Actually, you've got the verses in the wrong order. 

However, if that's what you got from my postings, then you're only seeing what you choose to see. 

Correction.....


Dt 6:4 & Acts 2:38 or Hell.

[jdcord]

*siiiiigh*


If it was anyone but you two I'd probably issue a warning.  But you guys are old hands at this "serious arguing" stuff, .... and since it's just the two of you, .............


Carry On!

[Brother Dad]

I realize that no amount of scripture will change those who choose to not see.  To receive the Holy Ghost does not mean a person if saved, they follow the Spirit of god into all truth.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

God will reveal Himself to anyone who will allow Him to do so. 

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
 

[Brother Dad]

Can a person the has the Holy Ghost be lost?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Can a person the has the Holy Ghost be lost?

Yes.

[onli-one-jehovi]

*siiiiigh*


If it was anyone but you two I'd probably issue a warning.  But you guys are old hands at this "serious arguing" stuff, .... and since it's just the two of you, .............


Carry On!

Not too big a sigh JD. At least it's interesting. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

I realize that no amount of scripture will change those who choose to not see.  To receive the Holy Ghost does not mean a person if saved, they follow the Spirit of god into all truth.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

God will reveal Himself to anyone who will allow Him to do so. 

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Choosing not to see is a two way street.

I beg to differ though about receiving the HG doesn't mean a person is saved. NT scriptural context of being "saved" is to be redeemed, cleansed, washed, set free from sin, regenerated - as well as  reconciled to God, translated from kingdom of darkness into light, and born again; to name a few.

There is positively no biblical record after Calvary, in which anyone not "saved" {believer in the atoning blood of Jesus and acting upon that belief} is filled with the Holy Ghost. Absolutely none. And we will not find it today in any church. All records show this gift is only for the redeemed children of God.

Jesus himself said that speaking in tongues - an attribute of being Spirit-filled - would be a sign {signification, proof} of those who believe. Moving the punctuation down a phrase, - believe in my name - changes nothing. The sign still follows believing.

Yes, as many who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. To be led by anything else, especially ________ Truth {still have to compare biblical truth to _____ truth}, is to be a carnally minded child and not yet a mature son. We're all guilty of that much of the time.

Yes, God will reveal himself to anyone who allows Him to do so. And that revealing is line-upon-line & precept -upon-precept. God always leads His initial revelations to the cross of the lamb. He always leads to a decision about Jesus. The result of that decision is the determinant that leads to repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost infilling, oneness, forgiveness, faith, hope, love, joy, peace, tongues, prophecy, etc. The journey on the other side of the cross lasts a lifetime. The treasures therein cannot be found w/o passing thru the blood. It is unreasonable to expect or demand anyone to "have it all down pat" before experiencing Calvary.

Our siblings among the (denoma)nations may not have come to places we have. But they have come to Calvary. That's where we all begin. That is where & what we first believed.

[Raven180]

Can a person the has the Holy Ghost be lost?

Yes.

Ditto.

Consider Matthew 7:21-23,

21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In 1 Corinthians 12:3 we learn that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Second, when a person receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit, according to the Word of God, they will prophesy (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17). And since we know that the Holy Ghost is sent in the name of the Lord Jesus by the Father (John 14:26), these people in Matthew 7:21-22 are obviously filled with the Holy Ghost because they are able to address Jesus Christ as Lord and they have prophesied, just as Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17 says they will.

Third, casting out devils is a sign of those that believe in the name of Jesus (Mark 16:17). The Holy Ghost is sent to us in the name of Jesus, as stated, and believers in that name receive the Holy Ghost, receiving it by belief/faith (Galatians 3:14).

Fourth, wonderful works can only be accomplished two ways: either by the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 12:10, the working of miracles) or by the power and working of satan, i.e. the "lying wonders" of 2 Thessalonians 2:9. Since these "wonderful works" were done in the name of Jesus, and not of satan, it can be safely assumed that they were done by the former, i.e. the working of miracles through the Spirit of God, and not the latter, i.e. the spirit of antichrist.

So these Holy Ghost-filled people:

Call Jesus Lord and prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles by the power and operation of God's Spirit, and yet they are called "workers of iniquity". Why?

They did not do the will of the Father.

Notice Psalm 6:8 and 5:5.

Psalm 6:8,

8. Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity...

Psalm 5:5,

5. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

So God casts from his sight the foolish (those that live in the realm of the senses and not the realm of the Spirit [Titus 3:3, see Strong's Dictionary of the Greek for entry on "foolish"] or don't believe in God [Psalm 14:1, 53:1] ) and all workers of iniquity (i.e. those that practice lawlessness, Greek New Testament USB Third Edition) because He hates them, even those who are, by deduction, filled with the Holy Ghost, if they practice lawlessness and do not do the will of the Father in heaven. Why?

Because satan/spirit of antichrist is called the Lawless One (2 Thessalonians 2:8, NIV).

The inspiration for lawlessness does not come from God. Even those who have been filled with the Holy Ghost, if they practice lawlessness, are not of their Heavenly Father. They will be cast out for not doing the will of the Father, which is to practice lawfulness, before God and man.

The conclusion is that they won't be saved.

(Perhaps more to come later...)

Peace,

Aaron

[onli-one-jehovi]

Hmm...When I read the famous verse that all apostolics like to use to when pinned down to answer the question of how to be born again, acts 2:38, i see nothing about a requirement that one must believe in the oneness. 

So true.

Lest we forget, everything the Apostles did or said from Acts to Revelation must line up with what Jesus said/did in the Gospels. He is the blueprint and foundation. He never said "You must believe there's only one God". Never. To be fair, He was talking to Jews who already believed that. He did say: Unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins". The question then, is: HE WHO?

Go back to the scriptures and see "who" the people were looking for. John says they were looking for the Christ. And they didn't really have the right idea about what that entailed. But they knew what Christ was supposed to do. John the Baptist knew. When he asked if Jesus was the Christ, Jesus enacted what the scripture said about himself - the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the gospel is preached to the poor. 

The woman at the well validated Christ's credentials, and Jesus admitted He was the Christ. Jesus even told the Sanhedrin who He was: I am he whom I've said from the beginning - the Christ. That is the truth that must be believed - Jesus is the Christ. The fact that God was manifested in flesh becomes of secondary importance here. Secondary, not primary.

Even when you get to Acts and preaching to Jews and Gentiles; we see -God hath made this crucified Jesus both Lord and Christ. There is never any mention necessitating initial belief in oneness of God. Paul said those who come to God must believe that He is. Is what? Is existing and real. Not some man-made piece of wood, stone, or metal. This real, existing God will reward you. He will forgive your sins. He will never leave you nor forsake you. He will fill you with His Spirit. Because He is real, I can believe He sent His only begotten son to give me everlasting life.

Understanding the intricacies comes after salvation, seldom before.

[onli-one-jehovi]

However, if that's what you got from my postings, then you're only seeing what you choose to see. 

I get good things from your postings. And I never read any posting with a preconceived mindset of what's being said. I read slow and I reply slow. I do that on purpose. There is no "choosing to see" anything.

If I need clarification on something, I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna ask you, & anyone else here. I'm gonna ask until I understand what was meant when said. Just as I expect towards myself.

If that upsets you, then ignore me.


Peace to you, my brother.

[Brother Dad]

I know a man that believes as long as you believe in God you will be saved.  He says since there is but one God it does not matter what you think His name is as long as you believe and trust in Him.  You can call him Jesus, Father, Son, Holy Ghost, Buddha or any of the other names or titles people have for God.  Notice what what happens when people don't have Truth.  Notice how confused people can become.  Oh of course I am sure their will be those that think this man is right also.  He does attend a Church that teaches Jesus Christ died and rose again.  He himself claims to be a Christian.  I also knew a man that prayed to Buddha and he called himself a Christian so as people would know He prayed. 

It is time to stop all the Comprise and teach the true plan of salvation and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ as the only true and living God so the World might have a chance to saved.

[Brother Dad]

OOJ has said to me as well as others to ignore him, well when he stops posting lies we will start ignoring him.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

But as long as people whoever they are want to post false doctrine I for one will continue to post the truth of the oneness of God. 

[Brother Dad]

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Reject Jesus name Baptism and you will be lost.

[OGIA]

*siiiiigh*


If it was anyone but you two I'd probably issue a warning.  But you guys are old hands at this "serious arguing" stuff, .... and since it's just the two of you, .............


Carry On!

We don't want your job to get too boring, jd.   

[OGIA]

He never said "You must believe there's only one God". Never.

Really?  Is not the first commandment such a statement to them?  Didn't He quote it when sincerely asked?

To be fair, He was talking to Jews who already believed that. He did say: Unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins". The question then, is: HE WHO?

Go back to the scriptures and see "who" the people were looking for. John says they were looking for the Christ. And they didn't really have the right idea about what that entailed.

Exactly!  The "right idea about what that entailed" escaped and escapes MANY who God has graciously filled with His Spirit.  Those you speak of above and those since then MUST KNOW that this Messiah IS the One God of eternity.  Yes, the Jews got it wrong about the Messiah on many fronts, but the greatest blindness was in the fact that, yes, God (their Yahweh/Elohim) DID become a man.  THAT is the reason (because He claimed to be their God) they wanted to kill Him, not because He claimed to be the Christ.

The fact that God was manifested in flesh becomes of secondary importance here. Secondary, not primary.

Man, this grieves me in my spirit so badly, Jerry.     I'm not being rude, but I say it in love: placing "God manifested in flesh" as secondary is the beginning of a loosening of the grip on truth.  It leads to much of what you and I disagree on.  Just telling how I feel, friend.

Knowing the "Christ" is important, salvational even, but knowing WHO it was that became the Christ is infinitely more important than anything.  Believing on the Christ and not believing He is the One God of eternity manifested in flesh is idolatry.  There will be many Christs (anointed ones) come in this day, but we'd better know WHO the real Christ is to weed through all the false ones.

Even when you get to Acts and preaching to Jews and Gentiles; we see -God hath made this crucified Jesus both Lord and Christ. There is never any mention necessitating initial belief in oneness of God.

Lord (Yahweh) and Christ (anointed one/Messiah/Savior).  God and man.  You've got to believe both.....in One Person.  They KNEW who "Lord" referred to.  Peter was speaking in Hebrew.  Lord = Yahweh, the only God they knew.  It was that revelation that prompted the question "what must we do?".

Understanding the intricacies comes after salvation, seldom before.

Finally!  Something we agree on!!   

[Brother Dad]

I was wondering why Paul such a busy man that He was would waste time re-baptizing folks in Jesus name since as some say it is not necessary.

[Brother Dad]

Come on Brother Paul time is wasting just get them to accept Christ. ??

[Brother Dad]

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

[Brother Dad]

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Finally!  Something we agree on!!   

Ha! We agree on a lot more than is seen here. That I'm sure of.   

I'll answer the other parts in a little while. I'm slow and have to moderate my thoughts, but I'll git-r-done.

[onli-one-jehovi]

OOJ has said to me as well as others to ignore him, well when he stops posting lies we will start ignoring him.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

But as long as people whoever they are want to post false doctrine I for one will continue to post the truth of the oneness of God. 

A - Let me get this straight.... as long as you think I'm posting lies  - you'll talk and comment.   
{ interpretation: biblical truth that contradicts religious doctrine}

B - But if I stop posting assumed lies  - you will ignore me and not comment.
{interpretation :regurgitate accepted apostolic truth where it contradicts biblical truth}


Hmm.... I choose A. I did B for a long, long time. But one day I 'accidently' listened to the Lord and followed the example of the Bereans; I looked it up. And I found that a lot of things called "lies" among our religious truth was not backed up by the Bible.

You brother may not ever question the system, but there are millions who do. Millions who wonder about the contradictions between religious truth and biblical truth. Millions who cannot fathom nor truly accept how people come to Jesus, obey His commandments, receive the HG, and yet are going to Hell because they are not "Jesus-name Apostolic Pentecostal". And because the answer to that query does not often come from our pulpits, then it has to come from other sources.

All I'm trying to do is discuss some of the undiscussible. Look into a different scriptural point-of-view that many may never see. You can call it lies all you want. But the Sanhedrin called Jesus' viewpoint "lies" too. Besides, how do we know we've gotten off-track until we talk about it? Did it ever occur to you or anyone else - "my individual" understandings could be off-track of the Bible? That's why we each have to be Bereans.


BTW, I do not oppose the oneness of God. Never have. Never will.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I was wondering why Paul such a busy man that He was would waste time re-baptizing folks in Jesus name since as some say it is not necessary.

If God reveals to someone His perfect will {Romans 12 - good/acceptable/perfect} regarding baptism in the name of Jesus - then it becomes necessary for that person. It does not mean that persons sins were not remitted prior. Just as God reveals to someone His perfect will regarding forgiveness. Forgiveness then becomes necessary for that person.

The process of maturity in Christ is time consuming. Maturity/perfection does not happen instantaneously. Baptism in Jesus name will eventually come to every Christian who continues to seek Him and walk in His righteousness. It is the perfect will of God, which we all necessarily strive for.

You can't force anything upon a child of God. It must come in Time {whether by the HG or the ministry}. It would be like holding a third-grade student accountable for twelfth-grade studies. They haven't been taught. Hasn't been revealed to them, no matter how necessary it might be for graduation.

We need to quit looking at the Holy Ghost as a dunce. God is more than wise enough, and capable enough to know when His children need information. He's also wise enough to know how to do it. Most of the time, the church system {corporately} is the last place He counts on. That track record is questionable. One-on-one, friend-to-friend, is the best route. Even forums such as this.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Come on Brother Paul time is wasting just get them to accept Christ. ??

He did get them to accept Christ.

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

He took the good & acceptable baptism of John the Baptist { which changed their lives so much, Paul recognized their walk with God} and revealed the perfect baptism. Their actions testify to believing upon Jesus. Or, said another way , accepting His death for sin.

True believing upon Jesus will result in the correct biblical response. Who do you think led Paul to them in the first place? Our Father knew these disciples were ready to receive this revelation. Otherwise, it wouldn't have worked.

[Brother Dad]

We can not compromise.

Isa 43:3 For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.


KJV

[Brother Dad]

We will stand for the oneness of God only.  So people can be saved.  We will not lie and prevert the Gospel.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God.