Apostolic Truth Questions

[onli-one-jehovi]

I would like to ask a question, Why is we think of God and His Word more in the negative instead of the positive? 

This reflects on how many apostolic churches teach.  Its fear based teaching  and most often uses threats of loosing salvation or missing the rapture to scare members and seekers into complying.  Can you expect someone to have a positive view of God and of the Scripture if God is presented to them as waiting on them to mess up so he can punish them?

Exactly. We all were carried away into religion, not too long after conversion. It takes time to grow in the Lord and recognize the call to come out. That path is narrow, compared to the broad way of religious thought. The captivity in Babylon typifies this.

I don't purposely think of the Word as negative. I've simply learned that the negative has to be overcome for the positive to work properly. I think it was after Passover that leaven was to be added to the unleavened bread. This signified the pure Word being in an unpure vessel. It takes a lifetime of the pure cleansing the unpure and will only be fully accomplished in the end.

Personally, it is in contrasting religious traditions with the Bible that the negative comes out. Otherwise, my witness is overwhelmingly positive.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I'm sorry Bro Dad that Africa upset you. If you choose to re-read the post, you will find it is simply an exagerated response to the apparent cause of poverty being non-tithing.

[Brother Dad]

I'm sorry Bro Dad that Africa upset you. If you choose to re-read the post, you will find it is simply an exagerated response to the apparent cause of poverty being non-tithing.

I accept and appreciate your apology. 

[Brother Dad]

I remember one time a woman and her husband had stopped going to church.  About six months later they had a bad automobile accident.  The woman's back was broke.  Someone said see what God done to them for quitting Church.  I thought then and this was the late 70s my God wouldn't do that.  As I began to Pastor I told and retold this story.  There are things we will face just because we a human.  There are however things we are protected from because we are under the protecting hand of God.  Sometimes things happen because we have gotten out in the wilderness away from God.  Not because God makes them happen but because we got out there where it could happen.  I like to compare it to standing under an umbrella.  As long as we stay under it the rain is not falling on us, but if we get out from under it then we will have to deal with rain and elements that we were protected from.

[Bobbiesue]

I would like to ask a question, Why is we think of God and His Word more in the negative instead of the positive? 

This reflects on how many apostolic churches teach.  Its fear based teaching  and most often uses threats of loosing salvation or missing the rapture to scare members and seekers into complying.  Can you expect someone to have a positive view of God and of the Scripture if God is presented to them as waiting on them to mess up so he can punish them?

Exactly. We all were carried away into religion, not too long after conversion. It takes time to grow in the Lord and recognize the call to come out. That path is narrow, compared to the broad way of religious thought. The captivity in Babylon typifies this.

I don't purposely think of the Word as negative. I've simply learned that the negative has to be overcome for the positive to work properly. I think it was after Passover that leaven was to be added to the unleavened bread. This signified the pure Word being in an unpure vessel. It takes a lifetime of the pure cleansing the unpure and will only be fully accomplished in the end.

Personally, it is in contrasting religious traditions with the Bible that the negative comes out. Otherwise, my witness is overwhelmingly positive.

I think many beliefs use fear to hold people. I have a mother who is in a nursing home and I have been told many a times by her that I am going to hell because I no longer believe as she does. I went to visit her one day and had an elder from where she attended  walk out as I walked in and look at me and just said I am so sorry you are choosing to go to hell. They think because I no longer believe as they do and have embraced this truth I am hell bound and are constantly letting me know it. But I am assured in what I believe now and it doesnt bother me. I think if we become more assured in our beliefs through bible study and prayer it will help us to stand
The fear tatic my mom used used to bother me until I became grounded in what I believe. Once I became grounded  it has helped me greatly to stand firm

[titushome]

I think many beliefs use fear to hold people. I have a mother who is in a nursing home and I have been told many a times by her that I am going to hell because I no longer believe as she does. I went to visit her one day and had an elder from where she attended  walk out as I walked in and look at me and just said I am so sorry you are choosing to go to hell. They think because I no longer believe as they do and have embraced this truth I am hell bound and are constantly letting me know it. But I am assured in what I believe now and it doesnt bother me. I think if we become more assured in our beliefs through bible study and prayer it will help us to stand
The fear tatic my mom used used to bother me until I became grounded in what I believe. Once I became grounded  it has helped me greatly to stand firm

That's really sad.  I'm glad you're still making the effort to spend time with your mother, in spite of her attitude toward you.

[Brother Dad]

I think many beliefs use fear to hold people. I have a mother who is in a nursing home and I have been told many a times by her that I am going to hell because I no longer believe as she does. I went to visit her one day and had an elder from where she attended  walk out as I walked in and look at me and just said I am so sorry you are choosing to go to hell. They think because I no longer believe as they do and have embraced this truth I am hell bound and are constantly letting me know it. But I am assured in what I believe now and it doesnt bother me. I think if we become more assured in our beliefs through bible study and prayer it will help us to stand
The fear tatic my mom used used to bother me until I became grounded in what I believe. Once I became grounded  it has helped me greatly to stand firm

The above was to be a qoute from bobbiesue, some how I didn't do the do something right

I agree with titushome, it is great you are still spending time with your Mother.  I would also like to add that true Holiness is more attitude, stndards are only a producr of our Holiness.  If our attitude stinks I don't care what kind of standards we have.  I am teaching standard here but I think we all would agree the proper attitude is the first step do living for God.  I like how Paul put it after naming several sins.

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

We should never forget where and what God delivered us from.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Now for next topic.
The Bible says:Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death
KJV
Now we know what we will earn if we sin.  The question is what is the cost of sin?

The cost of sin is: Life and everything that defines it.

Sin costs each individual their destiny and purpose, joy and peace, soundness of mind and heart - just to name a few.

Sin costs eternity spent in the presence of God.

Sin costs eternity spent alone, in torment.

Sin costs it all.

[doogie]

It is evident that no amount of scripture will convince OOJ how wrong his point of view is.  The uselessness of continuing such a task is wasteful.  I am convince of obeying the Word and do not wish to see the scrimming that i saw when growing up from those bent on withholding what is God's.  Every Scripture can be twisted to fit what ever we wish to make it fit.  I am not trying to offend OOJ but do believe that I have a God call obligation to tell him he is wrong.  Yes I am narrow minded but refuse to back down from truth.  I heard all the same ole arguments before, used to even use some of them.  But I thakn God He has shown me the Truth not just on tithes, but orht things as well.  I will say this OOJ if you don't want to give back to God the tenth and do as the early Church did then sell all you have and take it to the Church.
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Can't have it and give it all away.  I could fully explain that scripture but know how futile it would be to try.  Just give it all up now, hey not a bad idea.  Seeing most of the time when I preach I do not even get an offering.  Oh I forgot us preachers are in for the money.  Well I am not and most I know aren't, we are in for the winning of souls.  Such fighting over a dime is beyond me.  God has and will take care of me but that in no way frees others from doing what is right.

Don't call it tithes give until God say you have out gave him.  I have a neice and her husband who give about 18% right now to church.  they started with 10% and felt lead to start adding 1% per year that they are married.  It is 8 or 9 years now and they are very blessed.  Neither one of then has a collge education.  They both had just normal paying jobs.  After starting to give back to God, God open the windows of heaven and begin blessing them.  They still do not have any degrees nor are they going to school to get one.  But they both make over $100,000.00 a year now.  Why because they choose to give back to God.  I could go on and on and on of the blessing in my life.  For instance I have had two Cadilacs given to me.  Received large sums of money in the mail, people just handing me money.  So all I can really say is go ahead if you want to withhold don't bother me I kinda like the plan God laid out and I will continue to follow it.  Because it works, I tried the other way and it did not work.  So I will trust God.

See Bro Dad, this is the real problem: contention over who's right and who's wrong; who's viewpoint "wins out". It's not a matter of winning and losing. Its not a salvational issue anyway. All I've done is quote the scriptures to show there is no direct scriptural NT example or commandment to tithe.  Scripture supports it in the OT. Most comments were then simply refuting the traditional justification for the mandate.

Most responses have been primarily caustic remarks, character attacks, and traditional mantra. Few have been legitimate, thought out, replies. Most are ramblings about "being blessed because I tithe", and "I used to believe that but now I don't". If I'm so wrong - and you're so right, then show us.

Forget Malachi.

Where is the response to Abraham and Jacob?

Where is the response to the listing of tithes as food for the Levites?

Where is the response to no mention by Jesus in the Gospels?

Where is the response to no mention to the Gentiles in Acts 15?

Where is the response to no mention in any of the Apostles letters to the Church?


It was these discoveries in scripture, that caused a new look. I have no problem with anyone who tithes; just as I have no problem with anyone who does not understand the rapture. It is religion and tradition that has the problem. And we are discussing whether Apostolic truth = Biblical truth, aren't we?

******************

I have a neice and her husband who give about 18% right now to church.  they started with 10% and felt lead to start adding 1% per year that they are married.  It is 8 or 9 years now and they are very blessed.

Well of course they are. THEY FELT LED is obeying the will of God in this matter. What else should we expect?

Fyi:  I wll be responding, but have been traveling for work over the past week and have not had the opportunity to do so yet.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Fyi:  I wll be responding, but have been traveling for work over the past week and have not had the opportunity to do so yet.

Great. Looking forward to it.

[OGIA]

Truth is: we, the church, teach tithing as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

More like "my opinion is".   

Truth is: we, the church, teach baptism according to Mt 28:19 as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

Same response? 

Depends on how you interpret "according to Mt 28:19".  Define and I'll answer.   

The HG only teaches truth. But he teaches only what we are currently willing and able to accept. Many times, the HG uses terminology and concepts we are familiar with in order to avoid confusion. Being familiar with tithes allows the Spirit to guide your giving from the heart. The first barrier was recognizing "no mandate", simply given freely in love.

The answer to the question is: "Your" HG is always right because he is leading and guiding you into all truth. There will be some truth that each person never grasps or applies here on earth, but other saints might. Each of us are responsible for ourselves. Each of us are responsible to share what "our" HG reveals to us. That is how unleavened biblical truth is spread throughout the Body.

Well, I mostly agree, but still see "your HG" as telling you that the NT does not teach tithing.  I know a whooooooooole lot of HG-filled men who are preaching a lie then......

[onli-one-jehovi]

Truth is: we, the church, teach tithing as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

More like "my opinion is".   

Truth is: we, the church, teach baptism according to Mt 28:19 as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

Same response? 

Depends on how you interpret "according to Mt 28:19".  Define and I'll answer.   

Just like it says. Just like the bulk of the Church carries thru. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

The HG only teaches truth. But he teaches only what we are currently willing and able to accept. Many times, the HG uses terminology and concepts we are familiar with in order to avoid confusion. Being familiar with tithes allows the Spirit to guide your giving from the heart. The first barrier was recognizing "no mandate", simply given freely in love.

The answer to the question is: "Your" HG is always right because he is leading and guiding you into all truth. There will be some truth that each person never grasps or applies here on earth, but other saints might. Each of us are responsible for ourselves. Each of us are responsible to share what "our" HG reveals to us. That is how unleavened biblical truth is spread throughout the Body.

Well, I mostly agree, but still see "your HG" as telling you that the NT does not teach tithing.  I know a whooooooooole lot of HG-filled men who are preaching a lie then......  

As do I.     

That's why biblical truth trumps _______ truth every time. We just have to have the scales fall from our eyes.

[OGIA]

Truth is: we, the church, teach tithing as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

More like "my opinion is".   

Truth is: we, the church, teach baptism according to Mt 28:19 as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

Same response? 

Depends on how you interpret "according to Mt 28:19".  Define and I'll answer.   

Just like it says. Just like the bulk of the Church carries thru. 

Like I said, I'll answer when you define.  

The HG only teaches truth. But he teaches only what we are currently willing and able to accept. Many times, the HG uses terminology and concepts we are familiar with in order to avoid confusion. Being familiar with tithes allows the Spirit to guide your giving from the heart. The first barrier was recognizing "no mandate", simply given freely in love.

The answer to the question is: "Your" HG is always right because he is leading and guiding you into all truth. There will be some truth that each person never grasps or applies here on earth, but other saints might. Each of us are responsible for ourselves. Each of us are responsible to share what "our" HG reveals to us. That is how unleavened biblical truth is spread throughout the Body.

Well, I mostly agree, but still see "your HG" as telling you that the NT does not teach tithing.  I know a whooooooooole lot of HG-filled men who are preaching a lie then......  

As do I.     

That's why biblical truth trumps _______ truth every time. We just have to have the scales fall from our eyes.

Like I said, your HG seems to be telling you the truth while not revealing "it" to others.   

[onli-one-jehovi]

Like I said, I'll answer when you define.  

Sorry John, I thought it was obvious.


Truth is: we, the church, teach baptism according to Mt 28:19 as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

Same response? 


Depends on how you interpret "according to Mt 28:19".  Define and I'll answer.   

The bulk of the the Christian Church takes Matthew 28:19 - baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost - to be a literal commandment using the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The bulk of the Church infers this to be Jesus. This is a historical and present fact.

Being good Bereans who search the scriptures to see if these things be so; we find every recorded biblical enactment of this command uses the name of the Lord Jesus. There is not one scriptural record of baptism in the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Nor is there an historical record until the 4th Century, after the Nicean Council.

Thus, the bulk of the Church is biblically in error regarding baptism, and doesn't even realize it.

So... take the statement: Truth is: we, the church, teach tithing as necessary even though NT scripture does not.,

switch "tithing" for "baptism according to Mt 28:19", and you get the equally biblical error:

Truth is: we, the church, teach baptism according to Mt 28:19 as necessary even though NT scripture does not.


Is baptism in Jesus' name personal opinion or biblical truth? 

[onli-one-jehovi]

Like I said, your HG seems to be telling you the truth while not revealing "it" to others.   

Just like the HG does regarding:

baptism in Jesus' name.... infilling of the Holy Ghost.... laying on of hands for healing.... speaking in tongues.... gift of the apostle.... gift of the prophet.... word of knowledge.... modesty and moderation.... spiritual discernment.... Christ is the head.... Jesus is the only door to God.... the timing of the resurrection/rapture.... and on and on and on.

John, surely there is somethng the HG revealed to you that you shared with others who did not know? Something so clear but somehow they did not see? We all learn different things at different times. All of us. Just because someone doesn't yet see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

I know some very godly brethren who have the HG, but baptize according to Mt 28:19. I know some very godly brethren who have the HG, baptize according to Acts 2:38, but do not see modesty and moderation. Acts 2:38 doesn't automatically grant us everything. We have to be willing to see biblical truth and act on it.

Like you said: Well, I mostly agree, but still see "your HG" as telling you that the NT does not teach tithing.  I know a whooooooooole lot of HG-filled men who are preaching a lie then...... . 

Not on purpose. Not with malice. Just not yet seeing what the Book really says. And that's not my fault. Jesus said if you want wisdom/understanding, then ask for it. I simply did what He said. 

[Brother Dad]

The bulk of the Church does not teach baptism wrong.  There is no Baptism outside of the name of Jesus Christ.  To use titles is not baptizing, just getting wet.  There is only one Church and that is the Church that is called by the name of Jesus Christ.  There is only one door.  There is only one name.  People who have not been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ are not in the church but in a Church. 

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Unless we get bold and tell the truth to people that they are not saved outside of the name of Jesus Christ, then we are letting people die lost.  We must know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is right.  Otherwise we will be guilty of misleading people.

This is not an attempt to slam anyone or put them down, but Biblical Truth is just that and there can only be one truth.  We simply accept it or deny it.  Either we are right or we are wrong it can not be both ways.  It is time to get the boldness we need to have true Revival.  It is time we stand for the truth of God's Word.  No one without exception is saved outside of Repentance, Water Baptism and the in filling of the Holy Ghost.  We have established that most of us here believe this, but do we really.   Because if we really do then we know nothing else will do.  There is no plan B.

You either believe it or you don't.  As for me I do and I will stand up for anyday, anytime, anywhere.

[onli-one-jehovi]

The bulk of the Church does not teach baptism wrong.  There is no Baptism outside of the name of Jesus Christ.  To use titles is not baptizing, just getting wet.  There is only one Church and that is the Church that is called by the name of Jesus Christ.  There is only one door.  There is only one name.  People who have not been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ are not in the church but in a Church. 

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Unless we get bold and tell the truth to people that they are not saved outside of the name of Jesus Christ, then we are letting people die lost.  We must know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is right.  Otherwise we will be guilty of misleading people.

This is not an attempt to slam anyone or put them down, but Biblical Truth is just that and there can only be one truth.  We simply accept it or deny it.  Either we are right or we are wrong it can not be both ways.  It is time to get the boldness we need to have true Revival.  It is time we stand for the truth of God's Word.  No one without exception is saved outside of Repentance, Water Baptism and the in filling of the Holy Ghost.  We have established that most of us here believe this, but do we really.   Because if we really do then we know nothing else will do.  There is no plan B.

You either believe it or you don't.  As for me I do and I will stand up for anyday, anytime, anywhere.

Well, Brother that's a whole nother subject. One we've been over alot. Let someone else belabor the point.

***************************************************************************


Posted by Brother Dad: This is not an attempt to slam anyone or put them down, but Biblical Truth is just that and there can only be one truth.  We simply accept it or deny it.  Either we are right or we are wrong it can not be both ways. [/i]

That's right. Biblical Truth is the only one. Accept it or deny it. You either believe it or you don't. Biblical Truth!

So, I've proven that the Bible does not teach tithing to be necessary for NT saints. Apostolic truth teaches it is, just like the so-called "false church".

Will you now stand up for this Biblical Truth "anyday, anytime, or anywhere"?

[OGIA]

Thus, the bulk of the Church is biblically in error regarding baptism, and doesn't even realize it.


Is baptism in Jesus' name personal opinion or biblical truth? 

I can't answer your question, because I seem to also disagree with you on what the "Christian Church" is and who is in it.  I don't consider anything or anyone being the "church" that and who does not practice water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

So, my response to your premise would be that the two don't compare because only those who are absolutely correct about water baptism are "the Church".

 
PS: I read Bro. Dad's post after I posted mine, but I would have most likely just quoted his and given that as my answer since they are very similar.  Jerry, you can't compare water baptism in Jesus' name with tithing and say the "bulk of the church" practices it wrong when I don't agree with you who is IN said Church.  I happen to believe tithing is not only a NT principle, but a godly principle that has endured for millenia.  I don't believe it is an issue of salvation, in and of itself; but I do question someone who doesn't give at least 10% of their firstfruits as to where their heart is.  And I believe it is "heart matters" that are salvational.  The acts we commit or don't commit for God are merely products of the heart.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Thus, the bulk of the Church is biblically in error regarding baptism, and doesn't even realize it.


Is baptism in Jesus' name personal opinion or biblical truth? 

I can't answer your question, because I seem to also disagree with you on what the "Christian Church" is and who is in it.  I don't consider anything or anyone being the "church" that and who does not practice water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

So, my response to your premise would be that the two don't compare because only those who are absolutely correct about water baptism are "the Church".

 
PS: I read Bro. Dad's post after I posted mine, but I would have most likely just quoted his and given that as my answer since they are very similar.  Jerry, you can't compare water baptism in Jesus' name with tithing and say the "bulk of the church" practices it wrong when I don't agree with you who is IN said Church.  I happen to believe tithing is not only a NT principle, but a godly principle that has endured for millenia.  I don't believe it is an issue of salvation, in and of itself; but I do question someone who doesn't give at least 10% of their firstfruits as to where their heart is.  And I believe it is "heart matters" that are salvational.  The acts we commit or don't commit for God are merely products of the heart.

Ok. Thanks anyway.   

[Brother Dad]

No OOJ you have not proven tihes wrong just that you refuse to pay them.  I believe the NT teaches it and you don"t.  I would agree with OGIA I would have a real concern about someone I was pastoring who refused to give God at least 10 percent.  After all what has He done for us.

[onli-one-jehovi]

You know what? I've just about had it with all of these holier-than-thou accusations. Who are you or anyone else, to imply I am a thief and refuse to give anything to our Lord?

I have been nothing but respectful as a brother-in-Christ during this entire topic. But you and men of your ilk continually call names and label false accusations.

I would be concerned to be pastored by such a viperous tongue!

White-washed secpulchre!  I wash my hands of you!

[Brother Dad]

I am sorry you took that so hard.  No one said they were holier than anyone.  Nor did I call people names.  I simply answered your question concerning a topic that I try to close several post behind us.  All I can say is we must make sure we are ready to go when the Lord calls us home.

[Monitor]

Everyone:

Please try to keep the discussion about the TOPIC and not about INDIVIDUALS who are posting.

Thanks,

The Management

[apsurf]

The way i look at tithing and giving is this, God expects me to give, and I give.   But what I give is between me and God, not between me and the pastor.  If i feel that they  should know the percentage I give ---then I will tell them at that time.