Apostolic Truth Questions

[doogie]

Thank you for responding.

At this time I choose not to reply nor offer counter scripture, for I'm afraid it wouldn't matter. If I reply at a later date, it will be more directed at others who might have the same conclusions.

See, this confession bothers me alot.

Posted by: doogie... To be frank, I dont need to study anything.  The Bible is more a book to be believed than understood.


I choose not to waste our time.

Thanks anyway. 

You posted a response to my earlier posting that was very forceful in it's assertion that tithing in the context of the NT Church is in fact "false doctrine."  Yet, you do not provide adequate theological proof to make such assertions.  I would challenge you to back up your beliefs with scripture and post your findings here.

Regarding my comment about not needing to study anything, I was attempting to make a simple point.  First of all, I have in fact studied this subject extensively, including a complete Bible search of the words tithe, tithing, tenth, etc.  After searching the scripture, I am satisfied that paying tithes to my local church does in fact satisfy the Biblical principle of returning to God a tenth of all my increase, just as Abraham and others in the Bible did - even though they were not under the Law of Moses at the time they did it.  They did it simply to please God.  I want to do the same - simply to please God.  As a by-product, I have received much blessing in return.  That all having been said, I have observed some in this modern age who question every doctrine of the Bible - not from a perspective of wanting to deepen their relationship with God, but from a perspective of contention.  Every sacred doctrine is fodder for their re-interpretation, rather than simply accepted at face value.  By all means we should study scripture, rightly dividing the Word of God.  But, some, and it is just some, insist on finding alternative explanations that dissect and diffract the intended "simple truth" of scripture.  Specifically in regard to this topic, I feel that since I have studied this subject, concluded its applicability to my life, and believe that you are wrong, I do not see the need to search this out any further.  Had you provided a modicum of theolgical proof for your viewpoint, maybe I would feel differently.  Prove me wrong, and I will trumpet your viewpoint to the ends of the earth.  I am waiting...

Regarding your comment:  "I choose not to waste our time", who is the "our" that you refer to?  Am I to be concerned that a group of people are secretly sitting back chuckling over the folly of my comments?  Is this form not intended for topics such as this to be debated, reviewed and considered?  Man up and prove your doctrine, but dont hide behind silly groupspeak.

[doogie]

Question: where does the NT ever annul the payment of tithes to the High Priest?  Is not the Head of the Church the One in whom we should invest our monies, the firstfruits of what HE has blessed us with?  Doesn't "freely you have been given, freely give" apply to money, too?  Doesn't it seem that the practice of tithing never was done away with, as the high priest role never was, either?

This is a very good point.

So, accepting this for now for the sake of the discussion, the next logical question is this: how and to whom do we pay our tithe?  It's easy to say that we ought to pay a tithe to Jesus Christ our High Priest, but how do we actually put this into practice?  Jesus certainly has no use for our money - the Earth and all that is in it already belong to Him - and even if He did it's not like we could deliver it to His doorstep or place it directly in His hand.

So do we dedicate at least ten percent of our income to doing the work of the Lord: buying necessities to give to the poor and needy; paying for gas to visit the sick, the elderly, the imprisoned; etc.?  Or do we do what is usually done with the tithe, and give ten percent of our income to our pastor and/or local church group?  Or do we give ten percent to the Christian ministry(ies) of our choice?  Or is some combination of the above acceptable?

I ask in all sincerity, wondering what is your (anyone's) personal approach to this issue.  OGIA?  OOJ?  Doogie?  Bro Dad?

My first response would be that if you have questions about tithing, you would do well to discuss them with your pastor, as he will be required to give account to God for your soul, and will most likey respond in a manner that is scripturally based, and is in your best interest.

That having been said, here is a good, safe pattern that seems to work well:

1.  Pay tithes to your local church - anything less than a tenth of your increase is not a tithe, and, if you are going to tithe, it should be the "firstfruits", not what's left over
2.  Pay offerings to your local church - there is a distinction between tithes and offerings (the tithes belong to God, the offering is above and beyond)
3.  Give additional offerings to personal projects that you feel are worthy of your funding - be it to the homeless person on the street, or the local food bank
4.  Give additional offerings to other "Godly" causes that propogate the Apostles Doctrine around the world (would not want to be responsible for funding groups that spread false doctrines, as we may be required to give account for what we have done with what we had to work with)

You asked, that's my two cents.

Shalom.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Titus, I'll work on it. I would rather not just scribble off any ole answer.


Doogie, "Regarding your comment:  "I choose not to waste our time", who is the "our" that you refer to?  Am I to be concerned that a group of people are secretly sitting back chuckling over the folly of my comments?  Is this form not intended for topics such as this to be debated, reviewed and considered?  Man up and prove your doctrine, but dont hide behind silly groupspeak

This is paranoia. The 'our' referred to is you and me. There is no "silly groupspeak" anywhere. I'm way beyond 14 yrs of age, and do not play those types of juvenile games. No one should be chuckling over any comment or belief.

Yes, this forum is a place to discuss and consider topics. I try not to debate. That changes discussion and consideration into winning and losing. Sorry, that never has worked. I will continue to post my position and current understanding and viewpoint. I have always been willing to adjust my level of perception. Isnt that what it's about.... line upon line & glory to glory?

I won't ignore you, but you're going to have to do better than flinging out accusations and throwing down gauntlets. At least as far as I'm concerned.

[OGIA]

So, accepting this for now for the sake of the discussion, the next logical question is this: how and to whom do we pay our tithe?  It's easy to say that we ought to pay a tithe to Jesus Christ our High Priest, but how do we actually put this into practice?  Jesus certainly has no use for our money - the Earth and all that is in it already belong to Him - and even if He did it's not like we could deliver it to His doorstep or place it directly in His hand.

I'll start off with a question: does the Lord NEED our mouths, hands, feet and brains?  No, but for some unearthly reason He chose to utilize them in the propogation of truth.  He chose to get the ones He redeemed involved in the redemption of others.  I view money just like that.  He does not need my money.  But, blessings in my life....e.g., the knowledge of truth....He EXPECTS......maybe even DEMANDS.....that I pay a part, the first part, of that blessing back to Him.  That payment can be money, time, energy, prayer, knocking doors, witnessing in Wal Mart or so many other things.  I believe "tithing" includes all of those examples for some, but only some for all.  Why?  Because we are not all blessed with the same blessings from God.  Some have excess (relatively speaking, of course!!) money, some have incredible wisdom, some have great physical strength, some have organization skills.  You get the picture.   :grin:

Basic thought (and one Bro. Wayne Huntley preached so wonderfully about Thursday night of La. camp) is that the Lord blesses US for US to be a blessing to Him by using the blessing to help others.  Personally?  I think His blessings are as much a test of stewardship as they are to, say, answer a prayer.  When I give Him the firstfruits I do believe He is more apt to bless again.

So, no, God does not need my money.  He doesn't even really need me.  He's just chosen it to be that way.  :grin:

So do we dedicate at least ten percent of our income to doing the work of the Lord: buying necessities to give to the poor and needy; paying for gas to visit the sick, the elderly, the imprisoned; etc.?  Or do we do what is usually done with the tithe, and give ten percent of our income to our pastor and/or local church group?  Or do we give ten percent to the Christian ministry(ies) of our choice?  Or is some combination of the above acceptable?

I'm not 100% sure on how to divvy it all out, but in my personal life I give 10% on income of any sort.  I also give an offering beyond that.  That offering includes monies the pastor knows about and those he does not.  It also includes time, energy, etc.  However, I have to be careful about those things not of monetary contribution.  I, personally, don't want my voluntary submission to God's Kingdom to be viewed as a "tithe".  I don't want to think He's content with 10% of my day or 10% of my time, etc.  I believe it's clear that He asks for way more than 10% in some areas.   

As someone else has posted, I pay to a man of God I trust and who's life has beared the fruit of righteousness and incredible stewardship.  What he does with it after that is between him and God.  I do know that every penny, as far as I know, is accounted for once a year before the church and many times during the year before the elders.

Hope that makes sense, titus.   

[onli-one-jehovi]

As previously noted, tithing to utilize God's plan to support the ministry, doesn't apply to NT "church". In the OT, the storehouse was the Temple in Jerusalem wherein **food** was distributed to the priests and then to the poor.  Also, the ones who robbed God were the priests and not the people. The priests did not properly distribute the tithe as intended. It was them God was angry with.

Response:  Tithing is a principle shown in scripture to pre-date the law.  Abraham paid tithes, Jacob promised to pay tithes - it is very clear in scripture that those who participated in it were blessed.  You can argue that it is no longer applicable, but you cannot provide one iota of scripture to back up your argument.  Certainly Malachi was written to the wayward priesthood, but, when God spoke through Malachi, he revealed HIS view on tithing, and made promises for those who would participate in the program.  If tithing was only mentioned as a tenet of the Law, you might have a point.  But since it predates the law as a principle, and since the NT does not say tithing is no longer necessary or provide a different plan to fund the ministry, I believe it to still be relevant.
[/i]  [/color]

**It may sound like a cliché, but: Abraham's offering of animal sacrifices pre-dated the Law too. There are more scriptural recordings of that, than there are tithes. Why do we not carry sacrifices over? Why haven't they been incorporated into the church?

"Tithe, tithed, or tithing" is mentioned 1 time in scripture before the books of the law, referring of course, to Abraham and Melchizedek in Genesis 14. It is mentioned by Jacob in Genesis 28. According to scripture, no one paid tithes during the 2000 yrs from Adam to Abraham. NO ONE. Scripture does not say God commanded Abraham to tithe to Melchizedek. It simply says Abraham gave a tenth. A tenth of what; all that he had? He was already wealthy and blessed w/o tithing.

                  Genesis 13:2: And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver
                                      And in gold.

No. Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war captured from the five kings. Spoils of war. And he only did this once. There is no other scriptural record, period. One time does not set up a principle. Two or three witnesses, remember. 

Then there's Jacob, who "promised to pay tithes"; Jacob, the supplanter and thief who cheated his brother and then fled in fear. Jacob, blessed by Isaac to receive the promises given to Abraham; attempts to manipulate God. Look at what Jacob said:

Gen 29:20-22 - And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, IF God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; THEN shall the Lord be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.


Jacob's entire "principle" is based on IF GOD - THEN I. Jacob made a carnal vow based upon his desires. There is no scriptural record he ever paid tithes as promised. NONE. Can't use him as an example, even though we tend to share the same mindset.

Scripture is very clear that those who base their relationship on faith alone, received the blessings w/o ever tithing. The first time we see Abram, he is obeying the voice of God. God said: I will make you great and a blessing to the earth. God said that years before the once recorded meeting with Melchizedek. Tithing had absolutely nothing to do with Abrahams blessings. This is backed up by scripture after scripture after scripture.

What do we have pre-law? A one-time offering on spoils of war, and the unconfirmed fulfillment of a desperate man. Neither incident is a direct commandment of God. How can that be an eternal principle?

Sure Malachi revealed God's POV. He was talking to the priests, not the people.

[i]Malachi 1:1 - The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. 

Malachi 2:1 - And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.  [/i]   

The warning was to the thieving, disobedient priests who were endangering the nation. Remember, the Levites did not have a land inheritance. They depended upon the bounty of the entire nation. God's threat to 'cut off the crops' would effect them just like the people. No crops - no tithes. No tithes - no food. Everybody would suffer. God said they had robbed the entire nation by their disobedient actions. That's why HE said: for your {the priests] sakes, I will open the windows of heaven. For your {the priests} sakes I will rebuke the devourer. He was talking to the priests of Levi and no one else.

The first mention of the tithe - outside of Genesis - is Lev 27:30-34: All the tithe of the land and all the tithe of the herd. Land and herd. Food and clothing for Levi whose inheritance was to minister unto the Lord. It ends with this:

These are the commandments, which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel in Mt Sinai. 

The Mt. Sinai covenant is the LAW. The LAW held force until Christ died, establishing a new covenant in His blood. We may personally find "tithing" relevant, but it is patently not scriptural for NT Saints. Big difference between choice and mandate. Anyone want to give 10% - go for it. Teaching 10% as a mandated requirement - that's a no-no. Truth is: we, the church, teach tithing as necessary even though NT scripture does not.


I really do not want to write out every scripture, so here's a list according to Strong's.

TITHE: Lev 27:30,32; Num 18:26; Deut 12:17, 14:22-23 & 28; 2 Chr 31:5-6; Neh 10:38, 13:12; Matt 23:23; Lk 14:42

TITHES: Gen 14:20; Lev 27:31; Num 18:24, 26, 28; Deut 12:6, 11, 26:12; 2 Chr 31:12; Neh 10:37-38, 12:44, 13:5; Amos 4:4; Mal 3:8, 10; Lk 18:12; Heb 7:5, 6, 8, 9

TITHING: Deut 26:12


Again: a topographical study will show exactly who, how, what, when, and to whom tithing was commanded. Remember that the Matthew & Luke references were by Jesus while still under the Law. Hebrews is a point of reference to Jews and is not a commandment or affirmation under NT.

To be continued....

[OGIA]

Truth is: we, the church, teach tithing as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

More like "my opinion is".   

[Brother Dad]

Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


OOJ of course Jesus taught that tithes should be paid. According to Matthew and to Luke.  I chose to obey and be blessed.  Others may do how they wish. 

[Brother Dad]

Sure Malachi revealed God’s POV. He was talking to the priests, not the people.

[i]Malachi 1:1 - The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. 

Malachi 2:1 - And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.  [/i]   

The warning was to the thieving, disobedient priests who were endangering the nation. Remember, the Levites did not have a land inheritance. They depended upon the bounty of the entire nation. God’s threat to ‘cut off the crops’ would effect them just like the people. No crops - no tithes. No tithes - no food. Everybody would suffer. God said they had robbed the entire nation by their disobedient actions. That’s why HE said: for your {the priests] sakes, I will open the windows of heaven. For your {the priests} sakes I will rebuke the devourer. He was talking to the priests of Levi and no one else.

Good try but sorry in Malachi 3 he makes it plan he is talking to all the Sons of Jacob.
Mal 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob  are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers  ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
KJV

Also again notice it is the Law of God not the Law of Moses here.

[onli-one-jehovi]

There is no storehouse {temple} after Calvary. Scripture says: You all are the temple and you all are priests. Jesus is the High Priest, the only mediator between God and Man. There is no one to tithe to, for all are equal - saints, pastors, teachers, evangelists, apostles, and teachers. No one is "more equal or above" the other. Jesus abolished the elevated priesthood at Calvary.

Response:  You are wrong.  Read 1 Cor 12:28, where Paul gives a definite hierarchy in the "Church."  That having been said, you fail to acknowledge that tithing makes provision for the local church to subsist - this includes facilities, staff, etc.  Then again, you may be one of those who think it is wrong to have church in a comfortable, air-conditioned building. [/i]  [/color]

Let's first look at Jesus, the cornerstone of the temple. Paul's definitions must be based upon His.

Mt 20:25-26 - But Jesus called them {the disciples} unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes {rulers/authority} of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you:

Lk 22:25-26 - And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so;

I Cor 11:3 - For I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ:

Eph 4:4, 15-16: There is one body, ... But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph 5:23, 30 - Christ is the head of the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.


Since Christ is the head and we are the members {particular members} making up an organism and not an institution; what part of the remaining body - from the neck down - has control? A hand? A foot? Colon? Spleen? Large intestine? Small intestine? Third rib? Fourth rib?  Who's in charge of this headless body?

Christ is the head. That's why we all put on His mind, so we all can know what to do. I Cor you mentioned - that's not an hierarchy of church authority. That's a list of gifts given to the Body in order to function properly. They are likened to the 5 senses - taste, touch, hearing, smelling, seeing. Neither of the senses rule, but all work in harmony together for the perfection {maturing} of the Body. Only the head is in control.

Ever think about what kind of system was in place when Jesus came to earth? You had a High-Priest, and priests and subordinates under him. Only the priests could hear from God and direct the people. Common people couldn't. Till Jesus came along. That is one of the things we were set free from - dependency upon another for the direction of God. Now He is the High-Priest. He is the only mediator between God and Man. He is the Head of the Body. He is - Jesus of Nazareth, King and Priest of Jerusalem. The Son of God. The priesthood was abolished at Calvary.

But we soon fell back to the order of the flesh; appointing authority and lords over our lives. After the Council of Nicea, the priesthood was formally re-established and the Nicolaitan doctrine took control. The Nicolaitans believed ministers are of higher importance and saints are lesser. We know it as differentiating between priests and laity. The pulpit and the pew. Nicolaitan doctrine was hated by Jesus, according to Revelation. 

The pastor as the "head" of the congregational church is another product of Nicea. We exhalt the ministry, boasting of these titles; even though Jesus said:

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.    


I can't recall the persons name or scriptural location, but Paul made mention of a brother who thought more of himself and was demanding acknowledgement of his "ministry". Maybe someone can find that. Paul was against such foolery. We are equals in this together. The "ministry" is a guidance, but not to be exalted. Not to lord over the people of God.

Did it every cross your mind that the way we "do church" may not be the correct or scriptural model? I do not see any mention of church buildings being erected to facilitate worship, even though Jerusalem Church added daily to the initial 3000. Paul never writes about how to build a building and set up necessary facilities. He simply met in someone's house, or a large enough area to hold the crowd. The Bible mentions the Temple and synagogs, but not Christian church buildings. Therefore, the biblical model had no need of support staff or such. Any money needed went to the needy and the poor. Acts records all members needs were met by the Body so no one had too much or lacked. Members came with a song, psalm, testimony, word of knowledge, etc. controlled by the Holy Ghost. There was no single "pastor" who ran the entire show. No single "message from God" that everyone quietly listened to. Everyone participated as directed by the Spirit of God. Elders were there to wisely oversee the less mature saints and keep them from getting out of order.

I don't think it is necessarily wrong to have a central place of gathering. I like a comfortable, air-conditioned environment. It's generally stays hot here in Texas. But it needs to be debt-free so the saints are not put in bondage over it. I think the Lord is more than capable of moving upon His people to supply monetary needs for utilities and such. If you look back in scripture, God moved upon the Israelites to give and Moses had to tell them to stop. He was getting too much. The NT is all about giving, not taking. When you mandate and necessitate funds - you'll come up short every time. That's why tithing fails as a financial generator. God's preferred way has always been to give out of the abundance of the heart.

Tithing is not the NT provision for the local church. I've listed all the OT, biblical truth scriptures on tithes and tithing, and how it operated under the Law of Moses. I've made note of the blaringly lack of evidence in the NT. All you've made is assumptions based upon the traditions of doctrine found in Apostolic and Christian truth. I'm not sure you seek biblical truth thru discussion; but want me to "acknowledge that tithing makes provision for the local church to subsist". I can't do that. There's no scripture for it. History itself shows tithing did not begin until the 4th Century. You're going to have to come up with Bible, not corporate agreements. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

Thus, to tithe in the NT is going back under the curse of the Law. {and we know what that means} Hebrews 7:5 says: they took tithes according to the Law. What did Jesus do with the Law and its ordinances?

Response:  Again, tithing is a principle that pre-dates the law.  How can you possibly imply that tithing is going back under the law?  That is NOT what Paul is focusing on in Hebrews 7.  Rather, he is writing of the "priesthood" of Jesus Christ.  You are doing the very "out-of-context cherrypicking" that you admonish the readers of this forum to obstain from. [/i]  [/color]

There is no scriptural record of tithing as a pre-law principle. What does scripture show? A one time tithe on spoils of war and unconfirmed fulfillment of a desperate mans promise.

Yes, Paul is writing of the priesthood of Jesus Christ. I mentioned this section because it is the only record concerning tithes after Calvary. Paul is not telling us to continue tithing; he said it was according to the law (vs 5). He is contrasting the temporary Levitical order to the eternal order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7 says it's of the Law. Malachi 3 says it's an ordinance.  Eph 2:15 says the law of commandments contained in ordinances was abolished by Jesus. Col 2:14 says ordinances were blotted out and nailed to the cross. Col 2:20, 22 says if you are dead in Christ, why are you subject to ordinances after the commandments and doctrines of men?

We're discussing if Apostolic truth = biblical truth, then Apostolic truth must agree with biblical truth. What doesn't is the leavened bread of men. Tithes are an example we're using. So far, I've listed what the Bible says about the issue, giving scripture after scripture affirming it as an OT commandment and ordinance. I've given NT scripture concerning the abolishment of commandments and ordinances at Calvary. You've made assumptions, assertions, and caustic remarks. It does not appear I am the one providing "out-of-context cherry picking".

[Brother Dad]

It is evident that no amount of scripture will convince OOJ how wrong his point of view is.  The uselessness of continuing such a task is wasteful.  I am convince of obeying the Word and do not wish to see the scrimming that i saw when growing up from those bent on withholding what is God's.  Every Scripture can be twisted to fit what ever we wish to make it fit.  I am not trying to offend OOJ but do believe that I have a God call obligation to tell him he is wrong.  Yes I am narrow minded but refuse to back down from truth.  I heard all the same ole arguments before, used to even use some of them.  But I thakn God He has shown me the Truth not just on tithes, but orht things as well.  I will say this OOJ if you don't want to give back to God the tenth and do as the early Church did then sell all you have and take it to the Church.
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Can't have it and give it all away.  I could fully explain that scripture but know how futile it would be to try.  Just give it all up now, hey not a bad idea.  Seeing most of the time when I preach I do not even get an offering.  Oh I forgot us preachers are in for the money.  Well I am not and most I know aren't, we are in for the winning of souls.  Such fighting over a dime is beyond me.  God has and will take care of me but that in no way frees others from doing what is right.

Don't call it tithes give until God say you have out gave him.  I have a neice and her husband who give about 18% right now to church.  they started with 10% and felt lead to start adding 1% per year that they are married.  It is 8 or 9 years now and they are very blessed.  Neither one of then has a collge education.  They both had just normal paying jobs.  After starting to give back to God, God open the windows of heaven and begin blessing them.  They still do not have any degrees nor are they going to school to get one.  But they both make over $100,000.00 a year now.  Why because they choose to give back to God.  I could go on and on and on of the blessing in my life.  For instance I have had two Cadilacs given to me.  Received large sums of money in the mail, people just handing me money.  So all I can really say is go ahead if you want to withhold don't bother me I kinda like the plan God laid out and I will continue to follow it.  Because it works, I tried the other way and it did not work.  So I will trust God.

[onli-one-jehovi]

The NT is all about giving. If a congregation chooses to support their ministry; nothing wrong with that at all. According to the Bible though, such support cannot be mandated and manipulated by threats of curses. If so, we move out of the will of God and into error. Look again at I Samuel 8, where Israel wanted a King.

Response:  I am not sure who is making threats of curses?  However, God, speaking through Malachi, did promise to bless those who do tithe, and to rebuke the devourer.  I know of some "believers" who do not practice tithing.  In EVERY case, they lack blessing in their lives, and in some cases, are poverty stricken.  I find it interesting that some who advocate abstinence from tithing like to talk about "giving."  It would be interesting to see if their "giving" is more or less than if they were returning the tithe to God.  Again, as for me, I choose to follow this God ordained principle, and will continue to reap bountiful blessings as a result.  One more thing...not for a second do I condone wanton creation of new commandments, or other "abuses" by the ministry, but I would like for you to  please show me where the Bible states that "...such support cannot be mandated and manipulated by threats of curses..."     [/i]  [/color]

Every sermon or teaching I've ever heard about tithes mentions finances being cursed unless the believer tithes. You, yourself mirror that in comments made. Look again at Malachi. God was not talking to the people {who had obeyed the law and tithed}, but to the disobedient priests. Take a random sampling of ministers, ask if tithing is mandatory and cursable. I pretty well guarantee you the majority will answer yes. That's manipulation by threats of curses which scripture does not teach for NT saints.

Are you saying poverty is the result of non-tithing? Really? Is that what's wrong in Africa? Or Appalachia? Mississippi? How about Mexico? Haiti? Believers in every place, but poverty nonetheless. Tithing has nothing to do with poverty. Besides, Jesus said the one who gave it all, gave more. He demands 100% and not 10%. Remember the Pharisee and the Publican? The Pharisee boasted that he gave tithes, unlike the Publican. The Publican was honest enough to admit he might be wrong and needed mercy. Jesus said the Publican was justified and not the Pharisee. It might be interesting to compare, but scripture says not to compare ourselves to one another.

2 Cor 10:12,15 - but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours:

Speaking of poverty stricken - Jacob mirrors that example. Isaac had already blessed him with the inheritance. The blessing couldn't be taken back. Jacob was on the run, responding to the surprised presence of God in his life. What was his reaction? O God, IF YOU DO THUS AND SO; THEN I WILL GIVE YOU A TENTH.  He did not realize who he was in relationship with God. He was blessed no matter what he did. Our blessing is spiritual and not material. We may exhibit material gains, but that is not the measurement of blessing. There's a scripture that talks about us thinking our works measure our spirituality. We're already blessed in Christ. We are complete in Him. Poor or rich does not affect us.

But let's look at Abraham again. Let's ignore the fact that Abraham was not poverty stricken in Genesis 14, he was in fact very wealthy. Scripture records only the one time of tithing by him. If Abraham's actions here are truly the principle established - then I need tithe only once to achieve the same blessing. And you know what, I've done that. Many times over in fact. So according to that principle, I'm just as blessed as Abraham. I'm more blessed than Jacob, {whom we can't prove ever did honor his vow} Isaac, David, Solomon, Job, Peter, Paul, James, John, and even Jesus. See, there is no scriptural record any of the above men paid tithes. But I have once - just like Abraham. That makes me blessed.

So goes the theory.

No, if anyone is in Christ, he is blessed. He is an heir unto the blessings of Abraham. Nothing else qualifies us for blessing. Jesus said to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you. Did it ever dawn on anyone that God just may be looking at hearts that desire to give; and "tithing" is simply the terminology used? Could He not simply be honoring the giving heart and not the percentage? I think that is possibly it.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Meanwhile, I suggest do the study {biblically and historically} and see whatcha think then. And don't forget.... this is just one example of how error becomes truth.

Response:  To be frank, I dont need to study anything.  The Bible is more a book to be believed than understood.  I can read Malachi, apply it to my life, and reap the benefits of allowing the living Word to perpetuate in my life.  The blessings associated with the tithe are not exclusive to the Jewish race as some covenants are.  I choose to reap the benefits of obedience to God's word.

You know, Paul warns us about people who profess to love God, but deny his actual power to move in individual lives:

2 Tim 3:5-7
5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You and those who believe tithing is wrong or unnecessary are free to not give the tithe back to God.  On the other hand, with gas prices at record levels, inflation ever rising, unemployment increasing and such, you might do well to have a little blessing headed your way.  I'm having my most prosperous year ever, and it's only going to get better!

Shalom.  

Sure, and we can read Genesis, apply it to our life, and offer up our child on a sacrificial altar, hoping God will stop us from killing him/her. Or offer a couple of turtle doves for sin. Maybe kill a lamb at Passover. After all, I read these things in the Bible too; no need to study and understand.

We all want to obey God's word. We all want to please Him. Even we who supposedly only: "profess to love God, but deny his actual power to move in individual lives". BTW, I never once have denied God's power to move in individual lives. NEVER.  I believe I have stressed that repeatedly. I thought the preaching of the cross was the power of God?

Let me stress again... tithing as mandatory giving is wrong in the NT. Giving is a necessary function of the Body. God so loved the world He gave. Jesus said, freely you have received, freely give. Give and it shall be given unto you. Give out of the abundance of the heart. Give cheerfully. NT is GIVING. Not one place does the Bible advocate NT tithing in order to be given to. Remember the 3 types of giving: grudgingly, of necessity, and cheerfully. At it's very best; tithing is given as a necessity. All saints should give. That has never been in question. I'm just relating what the Bible says. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to understand it. You don't have to do it. That's up to you. I stopped and made the necessary adjustments after deeper study - just like I have with other corrections of God.

Prosperity is not a sign of approval from God. Jeremiah 22:21 - I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This has been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyest not my voice.

Paul said, I've been rich and I've been poor. I've been full and I've been hungry. But I've always been content knowing if God be for us who can be against us. Can we say the same? If prosperity abandoned us, would we turn away from God? Will we be like the crowd who left when Jesus told them all miracles had ceased? The gravy train had left the station? Will we attempt to "give" ourselves back into His graces?

Some might. I choose not to.



To not tithe does not mean not give. It simply frees us from the curse of the law. Frees us to give as much as the Holy Spirit leads, and where the HS directs. No one is freed from giving.

I know this is controversible. That's why it has to be studied out and allow the HG to determine. That's what discovering biblical truth is all about.

I also know some things are too much for some people, and they never understand. That's ok. This isn't salvational issue. 

[OGIA]

I know this is controversible. That's why it has to be studied out and allow the HG to determine. That's what discovering biblical truth is all about.

So, the guy down the street says he has studied it out and that the HG revealed to him that tithing is a NT principal. 

Who's HG is right....yours or his?

Mine has told me to tithe; not as a mandate under the Law, but as a NT principle and as an offering to the High Priest.

Who's HG is right? 

[onli-one-jehovi]

Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


OOJ of course Jesus taught that tithes should be paid. According to Matthew and to Luke.  I chose to obey and be blessed.  Others may do how they wish. 

Jesus was talking to Pharisees still under the Law. Note that he mentioned they tithed food, which was their portion to be given upward to the High Priest. Has nothing to do with after Calvary.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Sure Malachi revealed God's POV. He was talking to the priests, not the people.

[i]Malachi 1:1 - The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. 

Malachi 2:1 - And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.  [/i]   

The warning was to the thieving, disobedient priests who were endangering the nation. Remember, the Levites did not have a land inheritance. They depended upon the bounty of the entire nation. God's threat to 'cut off the crops' would effect them just like the people. No crops - no tithes. No tithes - no food. Everybody would suffer. God said they had robbed the entire nation by their disobedient actions. That's why HE said: for your {the priests] sakes, I will open the windows of heaven. For your {the priests} sakes I will rebuke the devourer. He was talking to the priests of Levi and no one else.

Good try but sorry in Malachi 3 he makes it plan he is talking to all the Sons of Jacob.
Mal 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob  are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers  ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
KJV

Also again notice it is the Law of God not the Law of Moses here.

Nice try back atcha.    Look again. There is no change of persons mentioned as happened in Chapter 1, then Chapter 2. Aren't priests also sons of Jacob? Seems like the Lord was reminding them who they were emulating. We see the same thing in the Gospels/Acts when Peter steps into the flesh and is referred to as Simon. Both were given a new name {Israel/Peter}. Both sometimes went back - action wise - to the old one.

All laws are God's laws. They still changed.

Oh, btw... I am God and change not....refers to his nature/character and not His actions. There are plenty of scriptural references where God repented {changed His mind}. One major change is the priesthood. God changed from the order of Levi to the order of Melchizedek.  But the nature of God never changes. God is love. Everything He does is in love of His creation. Even when He chastises.

[onli-one-jehovi]

It is evident that no amount of scripture will convince OOJ how wrong his point of view is.  The uselessness of continuing such a task is wasteful.  I am convince of obeying the Word and do not wish to see the scrimming that i saw when growing up from those bent on withholding what is God's.  Every Scripture can be twisted to fit what ever we wish to make it fit.  I am not trying to offend OOJ but do believe that I have a God call obligation to tell him he is wrong.  Yes I am narrow minded but refuse to back down from truth.  I heard all the same ole arguments before, used to even use some of them.  But I thakn God He has shown me the Truth not just on tithes, but orht things as well.  I will say this OOJ if you don't want to give back to God the tenth and do as the early Church did then sell all you have and take it to the Church.
Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Can't have it and give it all away.  I could fully explain that scripture but know how futile it would be to try.  Just give it all up now, hey not a bad idea.  Seeing most of the time when I preach I do not even get an offering.  Oh I forgot us preachers are in for the money.  Well I am not and most I know aren't, we are in for the winning of souls.  Such fighting over a dime is beyond me.  God has and will take care of me but that in no way frees others from doing what is right.

Don't call it tithes give until God say you have out gave him.  I have a neice and her husband who give about 18% right now to church.  they started with 10% and felt lead to start adding 1% per year that they are married.  It is 8 or 9 years now and they are very blessed.  Neither one of then has a collge education.  They both had just normal paying jobs.  After starting to give back to God, God open the windows of heaven and begin blessing them.  They still do not have any degrees nor are they going to school to get one.  But they both make over $100,000.00 a year now.  Why because they choose to give back to God.  I could go on and on and on of the blessing in my life.  For instance I have had two Cadilacs given to me.  Received large sums of money in the mail, people just handing me money.  So all I can really say is go ahead if you want to withhold don't bother me I kinda like the plan God laid out and I will continue to follow it.  Because it works, I tried the other way and it did not work.  So I will trust God.

See Bro Dad, this is the real problem: contention over who's right and who's wrong; who's viewpoint "wins out". It's not a matter of winning and losing. Its not a salvational issue anyway. All I've done is quote the scriptures to show there is no direct scriptural NT example or commandment to tithe.  Scripture supports it in the OT. Most comments were then simply refuting the traditional justification for the mandate.

Most responses have been primarily caustic remarks, character attacks, and traditional mantra. Few have been legitimate, thought out, replies. Most are ramblings about "being blessed because I tithe", and "I used to believe that but now I don't". If I'm so wrong - and you're so right, then show us.

Forget Malachi.

Where is the response to Abraham and Jacob?

Where is the response to the listing of tithes as food for the Levites?

Where is the response to no mention by Jesus in the Gospels?

Where is the response to no mention to the Gentiles in Acts 15?

Where is the response to no mention in any of the Apostles letters to the Church?


It was these discoveries in scripture, that caused a new look. I have no problem with anyone who tithes; just as I have no problem with anyone who does not understand the rapture. It is religion and tradition that has the problem. And we are discussing whether Apostolic truth = Biblical truth, aren't we?

******************

I have a neice and her husband who give about 18% right now to church.  they started with 10% and felt lead to start adding 1% per year that they are married.  It is 8 or 9 years now and they are very blessed.

Well of course they are. THEY FELT LED is obeying the will of God in this matter. What else should we expect?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Truth is: we, the church, teach tithing as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

More like "my opinion is".   

Truth is: we, the church, teach baptism according to Mt 28:19 as necessary even though NT scripture does not.

Same response? 

[onli-one-jehovi]

I know this is controversible. That's why it has to be studied out and allow the HG to determine. That's what discovering biblical truth is all about.

So, the guy down the street says he has studied it out and that the HG revealed to him that tithing is a NT principal. 

Who's HG is right....yours or his?

Mine has told me to tithe; not as a mandate under the Law, but as a NT principle and as an offering to the High Priest.

Who's HG is right? 

The HG only teaches truth. But he teaches only what we are currently willing and able to accept. Many times, the HG uses terminology and concepts we are familiar with in order to avoid confusion. Being familiar with tithes allows the Spirit to guide your giving from the heart. The first barrier was recognizing "no mandate", simply given freely in love.

The answer to the question is: "Your" HG is always right because he is leading and guiding you into all truth. There will be some truth that each person never grasps or applies here on earth, but other saints might. Each of us are responsible for ourselves. Each of us are responsible to share what "our" HG reveals to us. That is how unleavened biblical truth is spread throughout the Body.

[Brother Dad]

At this point I will not even waste my time reading your post on tithes.  I know what works and what don't work.  You yourself should know better than to try and tie Africa and in with the people of God.  I will sim[ly put it this way, I know what works.  I have been on both sides of the issue.  But after you throwing in the the remark of Africa I knew for sure there was no need to continue reading your posts.  End of discussion.

Now for next topic.
The Bible says:Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death
KJV
Now we know what we will earn if we sin.  The question is what is the cost of sin?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Question: where does the NT ever annul the payment of tithes to the High Priest?  Is not the Head of the Church the One in whom we should invest our monies, the firstfruits of what HE has blessed us with?  Doesn't "freely you have been given, freely give" apply to money, too?  Doesn't it seem that the practice of tithing never was done away with, as the high priest role never was, either?

This is a very good point.

So, accepting this for now for the sake of the discussion, the next logical question is this: how and to whom do we pay our tithe?  It's easy to say that we ought to pay a tithe to Jesus Christ our High Priest, but how do we actually put this into practice?  Jesus certainly has no use for our money - the Earth and all that is in it already belong to Him - and even if He did it's not like we could deliver it to His doorstep or place it directly in His hand.

So do we dedicate at least ten percent of our income to doing the work of the Lord: buying necessities to give to the poor and needy; paying for gas to visit the sick, the elderly, the imprisoned; etc.?  Or do we do what is usually done with the tithe, and give ten percent of our income to our pastor and/or local church group?  Or do we give ten percent to the Christian ministry(ies) of our choice?  Or is some combination of the above acceptable?

I ask in all sincerity, wondering what is your (anyone's) personal approach to this issue.  OGIA?  OOJ?  Doogie?  Bro Dad?

I personally do not pre-set any percentage. It would be a combinaton of the above.  Sometimes it goes in the plate, sometimes straight to the needy hand. Sometimes it is nothing at all. It depends upon my response to the HG and not my response to the habit of non-chalantly throwing in some bucks. I desire to give exactly where the HG wants it to go. That's not always easy for me.

[Brother Dad]

I would like to ask a question, Why is we think of God and His Word more in the negative instead of the positive?  For instance, Obey Act 2:38 or be lost.  Not, Obey and be saved.  Pay tithes or be cursed, not, pay tithes and be blessed.  Attend Church or be punished, not, attend Church and be Blessed

I believe that in the NT God has shown forth Mercy to those who will let Him.  To teach obey or be cursed is not the way we should teach anything.  We are blessed by obeying God's Word.  Punishment will come at the end of the way.  Truly living for God is a Blessed life.  We serve God because we love Him.  We are not following Him out of fear, nor are we doing it because we are seeking a blessing.  Jesus:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

I love God and choose to do my best to please Him.  I love my wife and my desire is to please her.  I do not seek to please her because I am afraid she will leave me, or not cook my supper but because I love her.  So much more with Jesus Christ.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

We were already lost that is why He came, we were already cursed that is why He came.  Obeying God delivers us from being lost, obeying God sets us free from the curse. 

Jesus also said,John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The only true way to have life is with Jesus Christ. 
John 10:10 I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The only truly fulfulled life is in Jesus Christ.  When I obey His Words in these things He will bless me.  I was born into this world cursed.  But thanks be to God, He has delivered me.  So I will do my best to obey Him at all times.  I wish to say with Paul.
2 Tim 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

[titushome]

Amen to Bro. Dad's post.

[Backseat Radio]

I would like to ask a question, Why is we think of God and His Word more in the negative instead of the positive? 

This reflects on how many apostolic churches teach.  Its fear based teaching  and most often uses threats of loosing salvation or missing the rapture to scare members and seekers into complying.  Can you expect someone to have a positive view of God and of the Scripture if God is presented to them as waiting on them to mess up so he can punish them?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Amen to Bro. Dad's post.

I second that.