Apostolic Truth Questions

[titushome]

OOj has shown New or Old he does not like paying of tithes.

I'm not sure where you get that he disagrees with the OT practice of paying tithes, but as far as the NT goes he has offered plenty of Scriptures in support of his position.

He has criticized the Pastors of our age as well as the Levities of the Old.

Is it wrong to criticize pastors when they do wrongly - for example, when they use the tithes given them to live lavish lifestyles?  I know not all preachers are guilty of this, but we all know there are preachers who are guilty - and I took OOJ's criticisms to be directed toward them.

We already know he does not like the Fact that there is but One Spirit not three person in the Godhead.

OOJ has repeatedly asserted that he does not agree with the concept of the trinity, and that he believes in only one God.  Nothing he's written has even suggested that he is a trinitarian.  Whence come the repeated contentions that he is?

he does not like the plan of salvation....

  I don't even know where this comment came from.

[Brother Dad]

OK for the record I attest to the the fact I am a one God Apostolic and glad that I am.  I ask if anyone else will atest to the fact they are a one God Apostolic believer. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

I attest that I am a one-God-Apostolic-Believer.

[yosemite]

i also afirm the fact i am a oness apostolic beleiver.

[Brother Dad]

Now we know, no two One Apostolics will see ever point the same.  But we must have the foundation right.  I offer my apology to OOJ for assuming that he was a trinitarian. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

In all sincerety Bro Dad....

After taking time to relax and process things brought up in this Apostolic Truth Questions Thread, I do hope you - and others - will invest serious study into the Word and see if there is any merit to my position.

The first time I was confronted with this type of information... I pretty much had the same reaction. But I studied it for a long time, searching the scriptures to see if this was so. Honest research will reveal much.

I have no beef with any One-God Apostolic saint. We're part of the Body of Christ. I have no beef with Apostolic truth. I strive to discover and live by it myself. I do have a beef with the leavened bread that has crept in over the last 1700 years. I do have a beef with any Christian truth that contradicts, circumvents, adds to, subtracts from, or ignores unleavened Biblical truth.


Isn't that what we all really want? The pure Word of God? Isn't the discovery of such worth discussing? Even when it threatens to rip established belief systems apart?

Take the discovery of Jesus' name baptism, established a few years after Azuza. Do we not think that was a hard truth to accept? Was it not defended against by ________ truth?

All hidden error is difficult to believe and change. If we refuse to discuss it, how will we discern truth from error? How do we prevent the leaven from becoming part of future bread? We've had a mixed loaf since the 4th Century. I think our LORD is trying to separate it.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Now we know, no two One Apostolics will see ever point the same.  But we must have the foundation right.  I offer my apology to OOJ for assuming that he was a trinitarian. 

Apology accepted.

And forgive me for offending you. That is never my intention.

[yosemite]

now lets all take hands and gather at the fire and sing a round of kumbaya!!LOL
sorry! i just thought that would be funny here. not meant for sarcasim.LOL

[titushome]

now lets all take hands and gather at the fire and sing a round of kumbaya!!LOL
sorry! i just thought that would be funny here. not meant for sarcasim.LOL

It was funny.  (I laughed anyway.)  



Oh, yeah - and I'm a One-God-Apostolic believer too. 

[doogie]

Regarding the tithe:

First of all, consider that Abraham paid tithes, and his tithing predated the law by over 400 years.  He was a wealthy man with a hot wife.  Sounds like someone I want to emulate.  Oh, and his wealth - a lot of it came to him miraculously by Gods hand.  Think his tithing had something to do with that?  Huh?  (Most likely so...when you consider God's later admonition and promises in Malachi - see below).

Secondly, God, the creator of the universe, speaking through his prophet Malachi explains what tithing is for:

Malachi 3:8-12

8  Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9  Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10  Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts

First and foremost, tithes and offerings are to support the ministry.  The byproduct of supporting the ministry is that God will bless those who participate, and in addition, will rebuke the devourer.

What is wrong with the modern day "Church" utilizing God's plan to support the ministry - both on a local and worldwide level?

As for me and my house, I will continue to honor God with the tithe, and as such, will continue to reap his bountiful blessings on my life.  If you choose to do otherwise, good luck holding off that pesky devourer...

Shalom

[onli-one-jehovi]

now lets all take hands and gather at the fire and sing a round of kumbaya!!LOL
sorry! i just thought that would be funny here. not meant for sarcasim.LOL

     

[onli-one-jehovi]

Regarding the tithe:

First of all, consider that Abraham paid tithes, and his tithing predated the law by over 400 years.  He was a wealthy man with a hot wife.  Sounds like someone I want to emulate.  Oh, and his wealth - a lot of it came to him miraculously by Gods hand.  Think his tithing had something to do with that?  Huh?  (Most likely so...when you consider God's later admonition and promises in Malachi - see below).

Secondly, God, the creator of the universe, speaking through his prophet Malachi explains what tithing is for:

Malachi 3:8-12

8  Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9  Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10  Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts

First and foremost, tithes and offerings are to support the ministry.  The byproduct of supporting the ministry is that God will bless those who participate, and in addition, will rebuke the devourer.

What is wrong with the modern day "Church" utilizing God's plan to support the ministry - both on a local and worldwide level?

As for me and my house, I will continue to honor God with the tithe, and as such, will continue to reap his bountiful blessings on my life.  If you choose to do otherwise, good luck holding off that pesky devourer...

Shalom

Hey Doogie!  Way to jump right in. 

As previously noted, tithing to utilize God's plan to support the ministry, doesn't apply to NT "church". In the OT, the storehouse was the Temple in Jerusalem wherein **food** was distributed to the priests and then to the poor.  Also, the ones who robbed God were the priests and not the people. The priests did not properly distribute the tithe as intended. It was them God was angry with.

There is no storehouse {temple} after Calvary. Scripture says: You all are the temple and you all are priests. Jesus is the High Priest, the only mediator between God and Man. There is no one to tithe to, for all are equal - saints, pastors, teachers, evangelists, apostles, and teachers. No one is "more equal or above" the other. Jesus abolished the elevated priesthood at Calvary.

Thus, to tithe in the NT is going back under the curse of the Law. {and we know what that means} Hebrews 7:5 says: they took tithes according to the Law. What did Jesus do with the Law and its ordinances?

The NT is all about giving. If a congregation chooses to support their ministry; nothing wrong with that at all. According to the Bible though, such support cannot be mandated and manipulated by threats of curses. If so, we move out of the will of God and into error. Look again at I Samuel 8, where Israel wanted a King.

Meanwhile, I suggest do the study {biblically and historically} and see whatcha think then. And don't forget.... this is just one example of how error becomes truth.

[Brother Dad]

Here again I see where we will disagree on the tithes.  I will not try to convince you that you are wrong as I am sure you can not convince me I am wrong.  I was brought being taught tithes were not part of the NT Church.  I now believe that is very much a part of Gods plan.  But I also feel as with standards this is an area many will disagree and may be best to slow down on my input.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Here again I see where we will disagree on the tithes.  I will not try to convince you that you are wrong as I am sure you can not convince me I am wrong.  I was brought being taught tithes were not part of the NT Church.  I now believe that is very much a part of Gods plan.  But I also feel as with standards this is an area many will disagree and may be best to slow down on my input.

I know we disagree. I'm not trying to convince anyone with logic alone. As always, shouldn't we seriously look at what the Bible says and base our decisions on that?

Your input is welcome. Biblical truth can be better seen when brought into public light. Iron sharpening iron. Saints assemblying themselves together.

I don't see where this is in the same category as standards. Standards have a tendency to be influenced by, but not directly addressed in scripture. It's not a contest to prove individuals "right or wrong". It's the method of alignment to the plumb line. We're still talking about Apostolic truth here.

IF this example of tithing remains a part of God's plan for NT saints - a plan to finance the Kingdom - then it must be plainly laid out in the scriptures. There must be a foundation laid by Jesus in the Gospels; which is  explicitly built upon by the Apostles in the rest of the Book. Otherwise, it is leaven added over the last 1900 yrs since the Apostles died.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what My truth, Your truth, Apostolic truth, or Christian truth all say. Biblical truth is the one we'll be accountable for. Biblical truth is what we seek to understand.

And if we still disagree..... we disagree. It doesn't make us any less brothers, nor remove us from the Body. There's a whole lot more still to understand. We might even discover it together. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

If I might add....

What I expect from everyone who is interested in this topic, is this:

1... Put away pre-determined conclusions.

2... Seriously research the scriptures. Read every verse that talks about tithes (ing) in the OT & NT.

3... Consider the context of every verse.

4... Don't call anyone else and ask them. Do it yourself.

5... Research the web or library for historical information.

6... Spend more than 10 min on the project.

7... Of course, pray that the LORD will reveal to you what the Word really says.

8... Accept or reject the conclusions.



I studied this for over a month. Hours at a time. Then I battled the ingrained habit and resisted the dissenting voices. IF you see it, it will be a revelation. Always there but never looked for. That's how strongly I believe.

[Brother Dad]

As far as tithes go it seems that OOJ and I were brought up totally different.  I was raise that being taught not to pay tithes.  It was by pray and studing God's word that became convince tithes should be paid.  I recently spoke up in a church service where the Pastor was teaching on tithes.  He said tithes should go in an envelope with your name on it.  I spoke up and said I don't think that it has to be in an envelope as long as you give it to God.  I don't care if you just throw it in the offering plate.

I think for sue that OOJ and myself can agree on this.  It does not matter what you call it as long as you are giving from your heart.  Nothing we ever do for God should be done out of fear of what God might do to us if we don't do it.  Everything we do for God must come from our heart.  Whether it be prayer, study of God's Word, fasting, standards, or giving it must all be from the heart.

Many Apostolics try to stay away from this verse but it is so true.
Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If it is not in the heart then it is not unto salvation.

[titushome]

I think for sue that OOJ and myself can agree on this.  It does not matter what you call it as long as you are giving from your heart.  Nothing we ever do for God should be done out of fear of what God might do to us if we don't do it.  Everything we do for God must come from our heart.  Whether it be prayer, study of God's Word, fasting, standards, or giving it must all be from the heart.

Amen!

[OGIA]

A wise elder told me this about tithing a few years back.....

Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec, a priest and, I believe, a theophany of the Lord God.  This pattern continued through the tabernacle.  Was the high priest position annulled or was it continued under Him who was after the order of the first OT high priest?  It was continued when God Himself, not a theophany, came to earth as man and fulfilled the duties of the High Priest to perfection with the perfect sacrifice.

Question: where does the NT ever annul the payment of tithes to the High Priest?  Is not the Head of the Church the One in whom we should invest our monies, the firstfruits of what HE has blessed us with?  Doesn't "freely you have been given, freely give" apply to money, too?  Doesn't it seem that the practice of tithing never was done away with, as the high priest role never was, either?

Ever since then I have seen the necessity of tithing.  No, not to pay my way into heaven, but to return to God's Kingdom what He has blessed me with...to support the ministry, to feed the poor, to build new churches, to cloth the naked, to help a brother and/or sister in need, etc, etc. 

[doogie]

Hey Doogie!  Way to jump right in. 

Response:  I cant resist - especially on THIS topic!

As previously noted, tithing to utilize God's plan to support the ministry, doesn't apply to NT "church". In the OT, the storehouse was the Temple in Jerusalem wherein **food** was distributed to the priests and then to the poor.  Also, the ones who robbed God were the priests and not the people. The priests did not properly distribute the tithe as intended. It was them God was angry with.

Response:  Tithing is a principle shown in scripture to pre-date the law.  Abraham paid tithes, Jacob promised to pay tithes - it is very clear in scripture that those who participated in it were blessed.  You can argue that it is no longer applicable, but you cannot provide one iota of scripture to back up your argument.  Certainly Malachi was written to the wayward priesthood, but, when God spoke through Malachi, he revealed HIS view on tithing, and made promises for those who would participate in the program.  If tithing was only mentioned as a tenet of the Law, you might have a point.  But since it predates the law as a principle, and since the NT does not say tithing is no longer necessary or provide a different plan to fund the ministry, I believe it to still be relevant.

There is no storehouse {temple} after Calvary. Scripture says: You all are the temple and you all are priests. Jesus is the High Priest, the only mediator between God and Man. There is no one to tithe to, for all are equal - saints, pastors, teachers, evangelists, apostles, and teachers. No one is "more equal or above" the other. Jesus abolished the elevated priesthood at Calvary.

Response:  You are wrong.  Read 1 Cor 12:28, where Paul gives a definite hierarchy in the "Church."  That having been said, you fail to acknowledge that tithing makes provision for the local church to subsist - this includes facilities, staff, etc.  Then again, you may be one of those who think it is wrong to have church in a comfortable, air-conditioned building.

Thus, to tithe in the NT is going back under the curse of the Law. {and we know what that means} Hebrews 7:5 says: they took tithes according to the Law. What did Jesus do with the Law and its ordinances?

Response:  Again, tithing is a principle that pre-dates the law.  How can you possibly imply that tithing is going back under the law?  That is NOT what Paul is focusing on in Hebrews 7.  Rather, he is writing of the "priesthood" of Jesus Christ.  You are doing the very "out-of-context cherrypicking" that you admonish the readers of this forum to obstain from.

The NT is all about giving. If a congregation chooses to support their ministry; nothing wrong with that at all. According to the Bible though, such support cannot be mandated and manipulated by threats of curses. If so, we move out of the will of God and into error. Look again at I Samuel 8, where Israel wanted a King.

Response:  I am not sure who is making threats of curses?  However, God, speaking through Malachi, did promise to bless those who do tithe, and to rebuke the devourer.  I know of some "believers" who do not practice tithing.  In EVERY case, they lack blessing in their lives, and in some cases, are poverty stricken.  I find it interesting that some who advocate abstinence from tithing like to talk about "giving."  It would be interesting to see if their "giving" is more or less than if they were returning the tithe to God.  Again, as for me, I choose to follow this God ordained principle, and will continue to reap bountiful blessings as a result.  One more thing...not for a second do I condone wanton creation of new commandments, or other "abuses" by the ministry, but I would like for you to  please show me where the Bible states that "...such support cannot be mandated and manipulated by threats of curses..."    

Meanwhile, I suggest do the study {biblically and historically} and see whatcha think then. And don't forget.... this is just one example of how error becomes truth.

Response:  To be frank, I dont need to study anything.  The Bible is more a book to be believed than understood.  I can read Malachi, apply it to my life, and reap the benefits of allowing the living Word to perpetuate in my life.  The blessings associated with the tithe are not exclusive to the Jewish race as some covenants are.  I choose to reap the benefits of obedience to God's word.

You know, Paul warns us about people who profess to love God, but deny his actual power to move in individual lives:

2 Tim 3:5-7
5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You and those who believe tithing is wrong or unnecessary are free to not give the tithe back to God.  On the other hand, with gas prices at record levels, inflation ever rising, unemployment increasing and such, you might do well to have a little blessing headed your way.  I'm having my most prosperous year ever, and it's only going to get better!

Shalom.

 

[onli-one-jehovi]

Thank you for responding.

At this time I choose not to reply nor offer counter scripture, for I'm afraid it wouldn't matter. If I reply at a later date, it will be more directed at others who might have the same conclusions.

See, this confession bothers me alot.

Posted by: doogie... To be frank, I dont need to study anything.  The Bible is more a book to be believed than understood.


I choose not to waste our time.

Thanks anyway. 

[titushome]

Question: where does the NT ever annul the payment of tithes to the High Priest?  Is not the Head of the Church the One in whom we should invest our monies, the firstfruits of what HE has blessed us with?  Doesn't "freely you have been given, freely give" apply to money, too?  Doesn't it seem that the practice of tithing never was done away with, as the high priest role never was, either?

This is a very good point.

So, accepting this for now for the sake of the discussion, the next logical question is this: how and to whom do we pay our tithe?  It's easy to say that we ought to pay a tithe to Jesus Christ our High Priest, but how do we actually put this into practice?  Jesus certainly has no use for our money - the Earth and all that is in it already belong to Him - and even if He did it's not like we could deliver it to His doorstep or place it directly in His hand.

So do we dedicate at least ten percent of our income to doing the work of the Lord: buying necessities to give to the poor and needy; paying for gas to visit the sick, the elderly, the imprisoned; etc.?  Or do we do what is usually done with the tithe, and give ten percent of our income to our pastor and/or local church group?  Or do we give ten percent to the Christian ministry(ies) of our choice?  Or is some combination of the above acceptable?

I ask in all sincerity, wondering what is your (anyone's) personal approach to this issue.  OGIA?  OOJ?  Doogie?  Bro Dad?

[Brother Dad]

Response:  To be frank, I dont need to study anything.  The Bible is more a book to be believed than understood.  I can read Malachi, apply it to my life, and reap the benefits of allowing the living Word to perpetuate in my life.  The blessings associated with the tithe are not exclusive to the Jewish race as some covenants are.  I choose to reap the benefits of obedience to God's word.

I wanted to add the full remarks of Doogie here.  I agree that we do not have to understand all Bible.  There are many things we do without having an understanding as to why.  But whether we understand or not we must obey. 

[titushome]

Thank you for responding.

At this time I choose not to reply nor offer counter scripture, for I'm afraid it wouldn't matter. If I reply at a later date, it will be more directed at others who might have the same conclusions.

See, this confession bothers me alot.

Posted by: doogie... To be frank, I dont need to study anything.  The Bible is more a book to be believed than understood.


I choose not to waste our time.

Thanks anyway. 

To OOJ: for my sake, would you respond anyway?  Thanks.

The Bible is more a book to be believed than understood.

To Doogie: this is a whole 'nother discussion, but I also don't get where you're coming from with this statement.  I'm going to start another thread so as to not sidetrack this one further.  Click here.

[Brother Dad]

Thank you Titushome for the way you appoarched your last post.  I did not use it as a qoute as if I did and everyone else did I felt we would have a rather large post.  First and foremost we all would agree God never changes.
Mal 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

One of the things I noticed in the first verses God says My ordinances, He did not say Moses law or the law but He said mine.  I would as that for a better understanding if you have not please read Brother Titus post on "The Law".  It will make it more clearly the difference between the Law of Moses and the Law of God.  God's Law can anot or never will change.  The order that God set the example before Moses of paying tithes to the preist is still a law of God today.  God never changes.  

I will add many of the ministers in the modren day Church certainly without doubt misused the tithes to live a lifestlye unbecoming a man of God.  This in no way relieves us from having to bring them in.  Once you have payed your tithes it is no longer in your hand.  If your Pastor misuses them God will judge Him.  The Pastor should be took care of but they are not just for the Pastor but all the Ministry.  There all kinds of examples in the Bible that teach us the Preacher should be taken care of.  One in the NT is, 1 Cor 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

It is plain and simple, God set up an ordinance no where in the Bible did He denounce the ordinance.  It was before the law of Moses, it is God's law.  God does not want His Ministers to have to be worried with the worldly jobs but rather be concerned about the things of the House of God.

I may or may not post more later on this subject, as I am not your Pastor do I wish to cause confusion between anyone and their Pastor.






KJV

[titushome]

God does not want His Ministers to have to be worried with the worldly jobs but rather be concerned about the things of the House of God.

Regarding this perspective, I am reminded of what was stated by the apostles in Acts 6:2-4:

2 So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables. 3 "Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. 4 "But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."

I believe these statements give us biblical precedent for those called to ministry - pastors/teachers, apostles, prophets and evangelists - to answer that call full-time, devoting themselves to the study and ministry of the Word, and to prayer.

Certainly there is also a case to be made for ministers also being employed in other professions, as Paul was.  But it seems to be part of God's plan that there are those for whom the ministry of the Word takes the place of a regular full-time job; and in such instances who is provide for their needs, and the needs of their families, if not the saints of God to whom they minister?