Apostolic Truth Questions

[onli-one-jehovi]

I am so glad I know for sure what is right.  My prayers go up for those who were once in the Apostolic Pentecostal Truth and has denied it and now are lost.  I just hope they have not gone too far.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
People who have denied the truth are lost.  Does not matter who they are. 

*** That verse has absolutely nothing to do with Apostolic Pentecostal Truth. It's talking about saints who have turned back to self-will and the world being unable to come to repentance like the first time. Sin before salvation was done in ignorance; sin afterward is on purpose. If they come back to God, it will be with many consequences of their sin. Just like us when we sin - purposely choosing to ignore the HG and word - there are always consequences. Those consequences may be nothing more than dealing with self-condemnation or it could be total destruction of our credibility. You don't have to be Apostolic to disobey God.

[onli-one-jehovi]

You've posted some great beginning scriptures. Where are the words of Jesus in there? I know we can't post the entire Bible, but it looks like a stronger leaning on the students, rather than the Master. More Apostolic than Bible.


Wow I was sure the Scripture I used from Luke 24 was the Lord Jesus Christ speaking.

Cute. I like sarcasm too. It helps to side-track things very neatly. Was the statement too difficult to understand? Does it need re-wording? Maybe I missed the red-letters.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Re: the Father vs. the Son terminology and the trinitarian accusations: I personally don't see any trinitarian reference from OOJ, and I have no problem using the terms these days.  I know the difference between the two and what each references.  Fact is, there are clearly two roles presented in the NT until all things are placed under His feet (1 Cor 15).  There is also a forever-more, physical manifestation of the One God, who, by the way, is called the Father only once in the OT, but many, many times in the NT.

We can't ignore the terminology, but I do pray that we always remember that these do not refer to the number of persons that God "is".  It is all about relationship of Spirit to Spirit manifested.  That One Spirit will always be the eternal One called "Father" (Spirit) and, since approx. 4BC known to the world as Jesus Christ, the Son of God (same Spirit manifested as human). 

Do I have it all figured out?  Nope.  I still get a bit confused by some of the terminology, but I have cemented in my belief that there is One God and His name IS Jesus Christ.  That is His identity, just as mine is John.

Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 04, 2008, 07:03:00 AM
Since God is calling His people to back to Himself, -in preparation for His return-, it seems very important to know:

Is Apostolic truth different than Biblical truth?

I say "no".  Does Apostolic truth encompass the whole of the Biblical truth?  Again, I say "no".  But, it does encompass the truths we, as the Gentile bride, are governed by.  There were no "Apostolic truths" before this new covenant era.  That, IMO, is why it is used.  Why would we use anything else to discuss the covenant we are under?  Is Tabernacle truth different than Biblical truth?  Is Mosaic truth, Davidic truth, Adamic truth, etc, etc?  There's nothing wrong with a thread asking for answers to "Apostolic truth questions", because it simply points us to the time that we live under and the commandments we are required to obey to be a part of His Kingdom.

****Thanks John for joining. I always appreciate your insight.

I see what you're saying. I agree. We are wise to study the Apostles biblically and historically. I meant the question in the context of superiority. I don't think the thread title is inherently right or wrong. I think our boxing up of truth can be.
Quote

The Apostles did not have a church building, nor limit services to Sunday/Wednesday. They did not have a paid pastor, paid staff, or parsonage. They did not pay tithes, nor take up offerings for themselves.  We do all those things, even though the Bible and Apostles teach differently. Are we in truth?

Where did the Apostles gather?  What day(s) of the week?  Who was James of Jerusalem?  Who were the "elders" Paul appointed to the Gentile congregations?  How did they make a living?  Did they work until they dropped dead and another elder replaced them?  Where did Paul stay when he journeyed?  What about the other evangelists?

It seems that there is much left out of the specifics of the Church that maybe God left to man to figure out how to accomplish according to the time His people would live in.  Are there any specific commandments regarding the above?  If not, are they really "apostolic truths" or just apostolic lifestyles/preferences? 

***Very good. Thought provoking.


Quote
shouldn't Jesus' teachings/words/example be our mirror?

Where are the words of Jesus in there? I know we can't post the entire Bible, but it looks like a stronger leaning on the students, rather than the Master. More Apostolic than Bible.

Do those who are born again and living a life pleasing to the Lord need to quote the "words in red" when supporting a belief with another who claims to be a brother?  Isn't the understanding that the Lord is the very One who inspired the whole Book and that just because we find some of His words "in red" they are no more important in this regard than those in black in Leviticus or Philemon? 

Apostolic truths (defined above), IMO, don't have to have words in red to support them when discussing topics with brethren of like precious faith.  I know what Brother Dad posted would have been just as valid as the words of God in flesh (aka the words in red) even if he hadn't included the Luke passage.  He does not have to give equal or even more weight to the words of Jesus Christ to establish a belief for me.  I know his belief about the God who spoke "Let there be light" and Who also cried in a manger.  That is enough for me for him to post something from Genesis to Revelation and not have to balance it out with the words of Jesus to substantiate his thought.


***Aren't the words in red supposed to be our foundation and cornerstone? We can't really know Apostolic truth w/o them. Some very good scriptures were used; taken from the Apostles instructions to other saints. Remember, we're using Apostolic truth because we're Apostolic in experience. The concept holds to Baptist, or Methodist, or Charismatic; the point being is does _________ truth = Biblical truth? Jesus told us He was the Truth, so _______ truth has to measure up to Jesus. If I take my measurements more from the Epistles than from the Gospels, something can get out of alignment. That's what I meant.

Bro Dad doesn't believe I'm a brother. Which is fine. I know he is. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

Re: the Father vs. the Son terminology and the trinitarian accusations: I personally don't see any trinitarian reference from OOJ, and I have no problem using the terms these days.   I know the difference between the two and what each references.  Fact is, there are clearly two roles presented in the NT until all things are placed under His feet (1 Cor 15).  There is also a forever-more, physical manifestation of the One God, who, by the way, is called the Father only once in the OT, but many, many times in the NT.

We can't ignore the terminology, but I do pray that we always remember that these do not refer to the number of persons that God "is".  It is all about relationship of Spirit to Spirit manifested.  That One Spirit will always be the eternal One called "Father" (Spirit) and, since approx. 4BC known to the world as Jesus Christ, the Son of God (same Spirit manifested as human). 

Do I have it all figured out?  Nope.  I still get a bit confused by some of the terminology, but I have cemented in my belief that there is One God and His name IS Jesus Christ.  That is His identity, just as mine is John.

i dont have a problem with using the termenology either. i just feel that when it is all you use it is considered to be pushing a trinity issue and subtlely trying to change someones veiw from oneness to trinity. thats why i guess i get aggressive in this issue, i phsyco anallize too deep!!??  LOL sence i feel that oneness has been revealed to me i no longer have to use these terms and i take liberty in not doing so.
when it used to be father son and holyghost i can now say God or Jesus, wichever my brain comes up with first. to me it is one in the same!!

dido on not having it all figured out!! just the facts, mamm!! (dragnet)LOL  -yo

***Neither myself, nor anyone else is pushing a trinity issue. That's a defense mechanism. I am trying to put some concepts and perspectives perhaps not seen or considered. That's what discussions are for. The Body assembling itself.

[yosemite]

i dont know about where you are from but around here the pastors dont live high on the hog. there are churches around here going out because there is no one to fill the pastor position. no one around here cares for the starvation bit. around here the tiethes are offerings to keep the word moving, not to make wealthy preachers!!
so i ask again, is the preacher not worthy of his wage? i beleive it to be a ballencing act to go from high on the hog to no church at all!! to be seeing the preachers living high on the hog your either jealous or you dont know what you are saying or maybe the wrong church. and another thing our church and the sherman church are dedicated out of the tiethes and the building fund to be shure that members and family and the community and our mission ministries are taken care of before our church bills are taken care of. to the point if Gods money is involved be sure men of God are involved!!    -yo

[yosemite]

as for the rest that has already been said and done to the point of traveling in circles 

[Brother Dad]

I am so glad I know for sure what is right.  My prayers go up for those who were once in the Apostolic Pentecostal Truth and has denied it and now are lost.  I just hope they have not gone too far.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
People who have denied the truth are lost.  Does not matter who they are. 

*** That verse has absolutely nothing to do with Apostolic Pentecostal Truth. It’s talking about saints who have turned back to self-will and the world being unable to come to repentance like the first time. Sin before salvation was done in ignorance; sin afterward is on purpose. If they come back to God, it will be with many consequences of their sin. Just like us when we sin - purposely choosing to ignore the HG and word - there are always consequences. Those consequences may be nothing more than dealing with self-condemnation or it could be total destruction of our credibility. You don’t have to be Apostolic to disobey God.

This my friend is all anout Apostolic truth.  Apostolic truth is all they had in the Church at that time.  That was all you could leave.  I fully understand it is talking about going back in sin.  That is what it is when someone denies the Truth for trinity falsehood.  Will continue to pray for those who have put Christ back on the cross with their lies from hell of a trinity. 

Also every verse in the Bible is Apostolic Truth.  For we are a whole Bible Church.  Anything outside of One God Jesus Name teaching is false.  I pray for people to wake up before it is too late. 

[yosemite]

whew!! dont stop him when he's preaching good!! the only plan i beleive in is one God, one Word, one Way= keys to the kingdom, in which were given to peter!!
and peter used them in acts 2:38 (the new covenant)

i agree to the whole bible being an apostolic truth!! the old testiment was a forshadowing of things to come and is still the word and as bro dad said we are a whole truth whole bible beleiving church, leaving nothing out.

oops i was suposed to- *sits back awhile*      -yo

[onli-one-jehovi]

I am so glad I know for sure what is right.  My prayers go up for those who were once in the Apostolic Pentecostal Truth and has denied it and now are lost.  I just hope they have not gone too far.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
People who have denied the truth are lost.  Does not matter who they are. 

*** That verse has absolutely nothing to do with Apostolic Pentecostal Truth. It's talking about saints who have turned back to self-will and the world being unable to come to repentance like the first time. Sin before salvation was done in ignorance; sin afterward is on purpose. If they come back to God, it will be with many consequences of their sin. Just like us when we sin - purposely choosing to ignore the HG and word - there are always consequences. Those consequences may be nothing more than dealing with self-condemnation or it could be total destruction of our credibility. You don't have to be Apostolic to disobey God.

This my friend is all anout Apostolic truth.  Apostolic truth is all they had in the Church at that time.  That was all you could leave.  I fully understand it is talking about going back in sin.  That is what it is when someone denies the Truth for trinity falsehood.  Will continue to pray for those who have put Christ back on the cross with their lies from hell of a trinity. 

Also every verse in the Bible is Apostolic Truth.  For we are a whole Bible Church.  Anything outside of One God Jesus Name teaching is false.  I pray for people to wake up before it is too late. 

Once again the "oneness vs trinity" diverts the discussion. That was never implied or mentioned at all. And what does "Anything outside of One God Jesus Name teaching is false" have to do with anything? That's never been in question!


***sigh***

Thank you though for your comments.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Does anyone else out there wish to discuss this? Perhaps if I give a different "for instance"? This is just one example, ok?

IF {as Bro Dad stated} Apostolic truth believes and teaches the whole Bible - just like _______ truth proclaims to - then why does biblical truth not support mandated tithing as Apostolic truth {+ every other denomination} teaches ? Why does Apostolic truth believe what the Apostles did not?

See, that's the question. That's the discrepancies we all have to straighten out. What is TRUTH and what is ERROR.

The doctrine of the trinity is no worse than the doctrine of the tithe. Both are unbiblical products of Man's misunderstanding scripture.


What do we do about it? Like the Bereans, we search the scriptures to see if this be so. If it is biblical, we alter our ______ truth toward correction. Line upon line and precept upon precept. Learning to truly allow the Holy Ghost to guide us.

If it's not biblical, then perhaps we are in a position to enlighten a brother, or sister about the Word. Just as Apollos' understanding was undertaken by Aquila and Priscilla.

Is the Church willing to do so?

[onli-one-jehovi]

i dont know about where you are from but around here the pastors dont live high on the hog. there are churches around here going out because there is no one to fill the pastor position. no one around here cares for the starvation bit. around here the tiethes are offerings to keep the word moving, not to make wealthy preachers!!

so i ask again, is the preacher not worthy of his wage? i beleive it to be a ballencing act to go from high on the hog to no church at all!! to be seeing the preachers living high on the hog your either jealous or you dont know what you are saying or maybe the wrong church. and another thing our church and the sherman church are dedicated out of the tiethes and the building fund to be shure that members and family and the community and our mission ministries are taken care of before our church bills are taken care of. to the point if Gods money is involved be sure men of God are involved!!    -yo

Please note what I said: Nothing personal toward any "minister". Just reference to the system as a whole.


I seriously doubt you do not know of any minister who lives better than his congregation. I also seriously doubt you do not know any saint who has tithed faithfully for years and years, yet is still waiting on "the windows of heaven to pour out that financial breakthru" as promised by the pulpit.

The comparison is: Apostolic truth, along with ______ truth, faithfully subscribe to non-biblical commands & methods. What passes for the 21st Century Church is not as biblical, nor Apostolic as it thinks it is. But it will be as it repents of its leaven and sheds the old wineskins. What God has declared He will do in us here at the end, He cannot do until we all come out of religious doctrines, and fully into Christ; the pure, unleavened word of God. That's what is meant by come out and be separate. That's comparable to returning from spiritual Babylon.

Whether Apostolics believe it or not, there are members of the Body scattered within the other denominations. Members bought and paid for by the same blood of the Lamb. In a spiritual sense, we all come out of the (denomi) nations into Christ. This is the remnant of the end. This is the true Church. The Jesus truth saints. The biblical truth. 

Shouldn't we all want to be a part of that?

[Brother Dad]

IF {as Bro Dad stated} Apostolic truth believes and teaches the whole Bible - just like _______ truth proclaims to - then why does biblical truth not support mandated tithing as Apostolic truth {+ every other denomination} teaches ? Why does Apostolic truth believe what the Apostles did not?

See, that's the question. That's the discrepancies we all have to straighten out. What is TRUTH and what is ERROR.

The doctrine of the trinity is no worse than the doctrine of the tithe. Both are unbiblical products of Man's misunderstanding scripture.

Well once again you have missed it my friend.  Tithes are just as much of the Bible today as it was in the Old Testement. 

1 Cor 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
KJV
Notice Paul is not writing in the past tense.  Why people have such a hard time just doing what the Word says is beyond me.  So if I was one rebeling against God's Word and withholding the tithes I beleive I would correct it.  How be it some just want to try to dim the light.  Apostolic Truth is still the only way.

Now I do hope you are a true Apostolic believer and you are just trying to get us to put the truth out there so everyone will see.  I have known of people asking things like this just so someone else can see the truth.  I do really hope this is your case and you are not just rebelling against God's Word.

[Brother Dad]

Whether Apostolics believe it or not, there are members of the Body scattered within the other denominations. Members bought and paid for by the same blood of the Lamb. In a spiritual sense, we all come out of the (denomi) nations into Christ. This is the remnant of the end. This is the true Church. The Jesus truth saints. The biblical truth. 

Shouldn't we all want to be a part of that?

Sure there are people in other churches as long as they have fulfulled the Word.  Repented, gone down in the water in the name of Jesus Christ, and are filled with His Spirit.  The name on the door does not matter.  The Doctrine of Jesus Christ is what counts.  Anything outside of One God, Jesus Name is wrong.  And if they find the truth while in a false church doctrine church then the Bible teaches they should come out from her.I do not believe it has to say Apostolic on the door, but must be Apostolic Truth Doctrine that is being taught.  Once again
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 John 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

There is no other Doctrine.

[Brother Dad]

And for thos who think Jesus has to say then
Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
KJV
Notice he said they ought to have done what they did.  He did not say they should not pay tithes but that they should have, but there were other things also.   And these are RED LETTER WORDS.

[yosemite]

Whether Apostolics believe it or not, there are members of the Body scattered within the other denominations. Members bought and paid for by the same blood of the Lamb. In a spiritual sense, we all come out of the (denomi) nations into Christ. This is the remnant of the end. This is the true Church. The Jesus truth saints. The biblical truth. 

Shouldn't we all want to be a part of that?

Sure there are people in other churches as long as they have fulfulled the Word.  Repented, gone down in the water in the name of Jesus Christ, and are filled with His Spirit.  The name on the door does not matter.  The Doctrine of Jesus Christ is what counts.  Anything outside of One God, Jesus Name is wrong.  And if they find the truth while in a false church doctrine church then the Bible teaches they should come out from her.I do not believe it has to say Apostolic on the door, but must be Apostolic Truth Doctrine that is being taught.  Once again
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 John 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

There is no other Doctrine.

first up, wow bro dad i would have used a different scripture but yours hit the nail a little more squarely!!

secondly, OOJ, this is where the apostolic vrs. trinity come in. see bolden phrase.

thirdly, you said this-
I seriously doubt you do not know of any minister who lives better than his congregation. I also seriously doubt you do not know any saint who has tithed faithfully for years and years, yet is still waiting on "the windows of heaven to pour out that financial breakthru" as promised by the pulpit.

ohhh really?well there is one preacher who is a mail carrier and makes pretty good money, one preacher who is currently un-employed that we ask prayer for at this time,and then my preacher who is 75yrs old and retired from the automotive industry up north who is just barely getting by. the churches i attend dont preach earthly treasures, but only the heavenly treasures that count. they also preach anninias and his wife!! if your gonna take up an offering or a tithe you better do as God wants with it. i challenge you to come and stay with us for a bit!! God never promised a finacial break through. maybe he is mercyfull to let us draw another breath!! maybe the outpouring is there and you cant see it for the worldly lusts. open your eyes to a more spiritual level. there was a lady in the bible that gave a mite and it was of her whole living, what did she get? i think it was mercy not riches!! she had a pure heart and didnt lust or favor the riches of the world. if the congregation is waiting on the windows to pour out finacial blessing only, then are they pure of heart or do they lust for the riches of this world?

oops! did it again!!    -yo

[onli-one-jehovi]

IF {as Bro Dad stated} Apostolic truth believes and teaches the whole Bible - just like _______ truth proclaims to - then why does biblical truth not support mandated tithing as Apostolic truth {+ every other denomination} teaches ? Why does Apostolic truth believe what the Apostles did not?

See, that's the question. That's the discrepancies we all have to straighten out. What is TRUTH and what is ERROR.

The doctrine of the trinity is no worse than the doctrine of the tithe. Both are unbiblical products of Man's misunderstanding scripture.

Well once again you have missed it my friend.  Tithes are just as much of the Bible today as it was in the Old Testement. 

1 Cor 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
KJV
Notice Paul is not writing in the past tense.  Why people have such a hard time just doing what the Word says is beyond me.  So if I was one rebeling against God's Word and withholding the tithes I beleive I would correct it.  How be it some just want to try to dim the light.  Apostolic Truth is still the only way.

Now I do hope you are a true Apostolic believer and you are just trying to get us to put the truth out there so everyone will see.  I have known of people asking things like this just so someone else can see the truth.  I do really hope this is your case and you are not just rebelling against God's Word.

No, they are not.

Historically, tithing did not begin as a mandated doctrine in the Church until the 4th Century. It was the answer to financing the "converted" pagan system of priesthood over the people. Temples and cathedrals were erected and had to be paid for; leadership had to be supported.

Not going to go into a full rendition here, but if a topographical study of tithes is made; it becomes obvious the mandate was under OT Law. The Bible says all ordinances of Moses were nailed to the cross, according to Col 2:14. Eph 2:15 says they were abolished, so any modern day command or practice is adding to scripture and under the curse. Even the Jerusalem Council did not command the Gentile Believers to tithe. Nor is tithing mentioned by Paul in any of his letters.

Here are some scriptures: 


2 Chronicles 33:8, "... so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."


Ephesians 2:15, "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances."

Deuteronomy 12:11, "Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD."

Nehemiah 13:5, "And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded [to be given] to the Levites, and the singers, and porters; and the offerings of the priests."

Hebrews 7:5. "And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of their brethren according to the law."

Acts 21:25- As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."


2 Thessalonians 3:7-9, "...we were not idle when we were with you, we did not eat anyone's bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you. It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in that conduct an example to imitate."

1 Corinthians 9:18, "When I preach the gospel, I make the gospel of Christ without charge."



These are just some verses. Serious study will show we've been erroneously bringing a curse upon God's people. Tithes is just one such thing that God is bringing into the light.

I say this not simply to play "devil's advocate", but in all sincerity of heart. We must repent of our itching ears and Nicolatian attitudes toward God and His Word. The beginning of sorrows is here. The greatest manifestation of God's power and authority is upon us. The greatest falling away into apostasy looms. All of His Body must let go of our _______ truth and return 100% to Biblical Truth. Otherwise, we may not make it; and definitely will not achieve His purpose for our lives.

I don't know about you or anyone else, but fulfilling my destiny in Christ is worth leaving all religious truth. That's not rebellion against God; it's rebellion against error. Apostolic truth cannot trump Biblical truth. To do so is idolatry.

Once again... I'm against Apostolic truth (per se) just as much as Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc truth. I'm against all truth that doesn't line up to Biblical truth. Biblical truth is the only truth. Biblical truth is Jesus The Truth. That's the plumb line. That's the chief cornerstone.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Whether Apostolics believe it or not, there are members of the Body scattered within the other denominations. Members bought and paid for by the same blood of the Lamb. In a spiritual sense, we all come out of the (denomi) nations into Christ. This is the remnant of the end. This is the true Church. The Jesus truth saints. The biblical truth. 

Shouldn't we all want to be a part of that?

Sure there are people in other churches as long as they have fulfulled the Word.  Repented, gone down in the water in the name of Jesus Christ, and are filled with His Spirit.  The name on the door does not matter.  The Doctrine of Jesus Christ is what counts.  Anything outside of One God, Jesus Name is wrong.  And if they find the truth while in a false church doctrine church then the Bible teaches they should come out from her.I do not believe it has to say Apostolic on the door, but must be Apostolic Truth Doctrine that is being taught.  Once again
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 John 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

There is no other Doctrine.

first up, wow bro dad i would have used a different scripture but yours hit the nail a little more squarely!!

secondly, OOJ, this is where the apostolic vrs. trinity come in. see bolden phrase.

thirdly, you said this-
I seriously doubt you do not know of any minister who lives better than his congregation. I also seriously doubt you do not know any saint who has tithed faithfully for years and years, yet is still waiting on "the windows of heaven to pour out that financial breakthru" as promised by the pulpit.

ohhh really?well there is one preacher who is a mail carrier and makes pretty good money, one preacher who is currently un-employed that we ask prayer for at this time,and then my preacher who is 75yrs old and retired from the automotive industry up north who is just barely getting by. the churches i attend dont preach earthly treasures, but only the heavenly treasures that count. they also preach anninias and his wife!! if your gonna take up an offering or a tithe you better do as God wants with it. i challenge you to come and stay with us for a bit!! God never promised a finacial break through. maybe he is mercyfull to let us draw another breath!! maybe the outpouring is there and you cant see it for the worldly lusts. open your eyes to a more spiritual level. there was a lady in the bible that gave a mite and it was of her whole living, what did she get? i think it was mercy not riches!! she had a pure heart and didnt lust or favor the riches of the world. if the congregation is waiting on the windows to pour out finacial blessing only, then are they pure of heart or do they lust for the riches of this world?

oops! did it again!!    -yo

Then let me shake your hand! You're the first Christian I've met who has no inkling of ministerial financial abuse in the entire Body of Christ. The first who is unaware of any minister faring sumptuously upon the labor of the Body.

What a momentous day this is for me!      

[yosemite]

Then let me shake your hand! You're the first Christian I've met who has no inkling of ministerial financial abuse in the entire Body of Christ. The first who is unaware of any minister faring sumptuously upon the labor of the Body.

What a momentous day this is for me!     

NO, i just go to a church with apostolic full truth elders who take care of what is Gods. we are all human and subject to err. ohh i have an inkling, or an idea!! its just nonexisting in the churches i attend. but if we cross the threshhold of faith i can show you some baptist and etc. etc. that are rich beyond measure in the congregations money.(these are what i call professional preachers and dont hold a public job, but i only know of them from hearsay) there are some preacher in the apostolic faith who dont hold a public job but also know how to handle Gods money. these are normally the preachers that struggle to make ends meat! not the ones flaunting cadilacs and new expensive suits. you dont have to take my word. see for yourself!! come stay with us a bit. the giving of money is all through the new testiment and isnt against Gods will or plan, no matter what name you give it, tieths or whatever. preachers in our area do more than preach and is where i think a salary is earned!! funerals weddins going to visit the sick and elderly and the shut ins. do i beleive that we are all asigned that job? yes. do we do it? no!! i still think a preacher is worthy of his wage!! though the preachers at the churches i attend take no salary or at least the sherman and evergreen church doesnt, dont know of the new albany church where the mail man preaches. sherman and evergreen do good to keep the missions and light and water and insurance payed, much less pay a salary to the preacher.

[onli-one-jehovi]

That's good news, Yo. I'm glad you know people like that. So do I. Wonderful saints of God.

Again... don't misunderstand what we're talking about here. We're talking about the system and not individuals.

We're looking at doctrinal {in this case} Apostolic truth compared to Biblical truth.

IF we're really Apostolic, then our doctrine {leaven} has to match up exactly to theirs; as outlined in the Bible.

IF Apostolic truth = Biblical truth - in every way, shape, or form - there should be no major discrepancies.


Just the fact that Apostolic truth { and Christianity at large} mandates tithing in their doctrine - against Biblical truth - proves an inequality. An inequality in this area. Tithing is just one example, easily found with limited study.

Do we all have some inequalities? Yeah! I think it's in the Feast of Tabernacles that only unleavened bread could be eaten. Jesus said leaven was the teaching/doctrine of the Pharisees, meaning added to. We know Jesus is the Bread from Heaven; totally unleavened. He is whole and complete, needing nothing. The time has come for His Body to purge out the leaven of _________ truth and eat only the pure, unleavened, Word of God.

That's what I'm talking about. We all have to examine our "bread" and be willing to make any change necessary. It is in the examination that we discover IF Apostolic truth = Biblical truth. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

Regarding tithing....



NT Apostles were all about GIVING:

Give w/o reservation. Give to those in need. Give out of a determined heart. Give cheerfully, not grudgingly or of necessity. Give as led by the Spirit. Give and it shall be given to you. Freely you have received, freely give. Give wisely. Give willingly.



OT Priests were all about PAYING:

Pay required sacrifices. Pay required offerings. Pay required tithes. Pay required fast. Pay required Laws. Pay required Ordinances. Pay or be cursed.


Ever notice how we **give** in the offering; but we **pay** tithes? Ever notice how - right before tithes -  Malachi 3 is quoted about robbing God and being cursed unless you **pay**? Sounds more like the Godfather, than God the Father.

Ever notice how nothing is mentioned about Jesus bearing the curse on Calvary? If Jesus bore the curse, how can we be cursed?   

Just some thoughts from a Berean.

[titushome]

Regarding pastors living "high on the hog," as OOJ put it, I have to mostly concur with Yosemite: most pastors I know do not.

Of course, we all probably can think of pastors we know, or know of, who live very well at the expense of God's people, or who at least live better than the average Joe in their congregations.  But most pastors I know pastor small churches that usually struggle financially, and the pastor's salary is typically pretty low.  Even the pastors I know who pastor larger churches usually choose to receive only a portion of the tithe - enough to live modestly - and direct the rest into the general church fund, or to missions, or whatever.

That said, I think the discussion of whether the NT teaches us that tithes are mandatory for Christians is one worth having.  I see nothing in the NT that tells me tithes are required of the Church.  If you know of any writings that tell us so, please share them; I'd like to know.

Instead, the NT writings stress giving, as OOJ wrote:

Give w/o reservation. Give to those in need. Give out of a determined heart. Give cheerfully, not grudgingly or of necessity. Give as led by the Spirit. Give and it shall be given to you. Freely you have received, freely give. Give wisely. Give willingly.

This is more in keeping with the spirit of the NT; much more than a mandatory tithe.

Also worth discussing is whether Christian congregations ought to pay their pastors - potentially a separate issue from that of the tithe.  I see a stronger case in the NT for pastors' salaries than for tithes, but I think the issue is far from being clearly decided.  I'd like to know the thoughts of anyone who cares to share.

[Brother Dad]

First and foremost let me plainly state that the last post by OOJ is so close to blasphemy that it really concerns me.  Not only does he put the Apostolic Church down for tithes but then compares God to the Godfather.  How rude and disrespectful can anyone person be.  Not only does OOJ not like tithes now but the way he words it even the Levities were wrong.  Just goes to show you that there are those who would pervert the gospel.  It is one thing to disput or disagree with me or any other person that wishes to post.  But when you start poking fun at God watch out.  I was hoping OOJ was just trying to get someone to post some valid scriptures, however with that post it is plain to see that he is just plain confused.
2 Thess 2:8- And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
KJV
OOj has shown New or Old he does not like paying of tithes.  He has criticized the Pastors of our age as well as the Levities of the Old.  Makes me wonder what else he does not like about the Bible.  We already know he does not like the Fact that there is but One Spirit not three person in the Godhead.  he does not like the plan of salvation, nor does he like paying tithes.  Why he even wants to be on an Apostolic thread is beyond me because he sure don't believe in anything except himself.  I can only say we should all bind together and pray for OOJ that God would deliver him out of his blindness.  No one has to agree with me on everything but come on OOJ just crossed the line and showed he just don't like the Word of God.  Please pray for OOJ.

[Brother Dad]

Regarding pastors living "high on the hog," as OOJ put it, I have to mostly concur with Yosemite: most pastors I know do not.

Of course, we all probably can think of pastors we know, or know of, who live very well at the expense of God's people, or who at least live better than the average Joe in their congregations.  But most pastors I know pastor small churches that usually struggle financially, and the pastor's salary is typically pretty low.  Even the pastors I know who pastor larger churches usually choose to receive only a portion of the tithe - enough to live modestly - and direct the rest into the general church fund, or to missions, or whatever.

That said, I think the discussion of whether the NT teaches us that tithes are mandatory for Christians is one worth having.  I see nothing in the NT that tells me tithes are required of the Church.  If you know of any writings that tell us so, please share them; I'd like to know.

Instead, the NT writings stress giving, as OOJ wrote:

Give w/o reservation. Give to those in need. Give out of a determined heart. Give cheerfully, not grudgingly or of necessity. Give as led by the Spirit. Give and it shall be given to you. Freely you have received, freely give. Give wisely. Give willingly.

This is more in keeping with the spirit of the NT; much more than a mandatory tithe.

Also worth discussing is whether Christian congregations ought to pay their pastors - potentially a separate issue from that of the tithe.  I see a stronger case in the NT for pastors' salaries than for tithes, but I think the issue is far from being clearly decided.  I'd like to know the thoughts of anyone who cares to share.

Thank you for you gentleman way of approaching this discussion.  I did offer two scriptures yesterday on this post from the New Testament concerning both tithes and paying of the Ministers.  However I think it would not be a bad idea if we started a thread where different ones can post their feelings in a proper way.  I feel sometimes there are those who don't understand the how the Minister is supported.  I know that God does take care of me.  so if you start the thread be sure and send me a pm and I will check it out and maybe join in.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Oh Brother Dad.

All I will say is this:  If clarity is needed... ask.   No need to accuse.

[titushome]

However I think it would not be a bad idea if we started a thread where different ones can post their feelings in a proper way.  I feel sometimes there are those who don't understand the how the Minister is supported.  I know that God does take care of me.  so if you start the thread be sure and send me a pm and I will check it out and maybe join in.

I will probably start two threads: one about tithes, and one about financial support of preachers.  Hopefully I'll have time to do so either today or tomorrow.