Apostolic Truth Questions

[Q-tip]

It's kinda pointless to continue supposing if this is a point of disagreement.

Everything can be disagreed upon based on supposition.  It doesn't make any topic pointless though.

 

There are many scriptures that describe God's omnipresence.  Psalm 139 is a good start.

This was a psalm of praise from David.  He was praising God for always tending to him. 

A person who loves God will always have God with them.  And David was never really in hell.

I will elaborate more if necessary but many times scripture refers to him being all knowing rather than omnipresent. 

God Bless.

Chris.

[Q-tip]

no scripture =unfounded conversation and will lead in circles,

But circles add so much to our lives.  I mean, look at all the emoticons that are configured around a circle.

:grin:

God Bless.

Chris.

[yosemite]

im getting dizzy!!!

[OGIA]

Everything can be disagreed upon based on supposition.  It doesn't make any topic pointless though.

I didn't say the topic was pointless.  I said discussing it was if we can't agree on basic definitions.   

 

And David was never really in hell.

He didn't claim to be.  He said "IF I make my bed in hell...".

many times scripture refers to him being all knowing rather than omnipresent. 

How interesting that you brought this up, because I was thinking the same thing when I read Psalm 139.  It struck me -- God MUST BE omnipresent IF He is omniscient.  That psalm talks about Him knowing things that had not yet been, and we read in other places where He calls things that are not as though they were.  How does He know things that are not as though they are?  He must be there at that time and see it happening.  How did He know me before I was formed in the womb?  Because He not only was but He IS there at the womb before and after I am formed.   :grin:

[Q-tip]

He must be there at that time and see it happening.  How did He know me before I was formed in the womb?  Because He not only was but He IS there at the womb before and after I am formed.

Having all nowledge doesn't equate to one being all present.  He knows everything because he created all things and nothing was made without him.
Omnipresent suggests a physical ( as it applies to God ) presence everywhere at every time.  All knowing suggests an intelligent comprehension of all things.  They were (as far as I can see) not united in scripture.

I hold that omnipresence does not compliment scripture as well as Not omnipresent.   

I didn't say the topic was pointless.  I said discussing it was if we can't agree on basic definitions.

I don't have a disagreement on basic definitions at all.  Discussion is based on the application of "omnipresence" to what the word of God has to say about it.

He didn't claim to be.  He said "IF I make my bed in hell...".

Which shows the intent of his psalm.  In his praising of God he was illustrating how much so that he believed God always kept him.

[OGIA]

I hold that omnipresence does not compliment scripture as well as Not omnipresent.   

Well, He either is or He isn't, right?   

I don't have a disagreement on basic definitions at all.  Discussion is based on the application of "omnipresence" to what the word of God has to say about it.

A basic definition about God is that one of His attributes is omnipresence.  To me, to know all things -- past, present and especially future -- requires that He be there.  How else does He know what the end is going to look like? 

[Q-tip]

Well, He either is or He isn't, right?

No..No...No....It's-   He either isn't or he is.   :grin:

How else does He know what the end is going to look like

Because he is all knowing.

:grin:

God Bless.

Chris.

[yosemite]

some twisters look like this-all are devastating!  dtip for the day, dont take it personally!LOL

[Q-tip]

dtip for the day, dont take it personally!LOL

[Max_Kolbe]

If you notice in the gospels,  Jesus told the truth then left it at that.  For example, he didn't rush after the rich man nor,   as in John 6:66 "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."  He didn't chase after them and say "wait,  you got it wrong."   No,  he told the truth. Period.

If someone asks you a question about what you believe,  tell the Truth, and leave it at that.  Let the Spirit do His work.

[onli-one-jehovi]

If you notice in the gospels,  Jesus told the truth then left it at that.  For example, he didn't rush after the rich man nor,   as in John 6:66 "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."  He didn't chase after them and say "wait,  you got it wrong."   No,  he told the truth. Period.

If someone asks you a question about what you believe,  tell the Truth, and leave it at that.  Let the Spirit do His work.

That's so true. He also did not make any attempt to be liked or accepted by people. He simply walked after the Spirit and went about His Father's business. Oh what an example to emulate.

[yosemite]

If you notice in the gospels,  Jesus told the truth then left it at that.  For example, he didn't rush after the rich man nor,   as in John 6:66 "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him."  He didn't chase after them and say "wait,  you got it wrong."   No,  he told the truth. Period.

If someone asks you a question about what you believe,  tell the Truth, and leave it at that.  Let the Spirit do His work.

That's so true. He also did not make any attempt to be liked or accepted by people. He simply walked after the Spirit and went about His Father's business. Oh what an example to emulate.

i feel that is an untruth! if anything jesus taught understanding, love, and gentleness, not avoidence and selfrightiousness. Jesus called a woman a dog, but he knew the whole truth about her and waited to see if she would stay after a harsh treatment. it was not out of being unkind but affirming to others about compassion. did you notice at first he complied to majority thinking and then showed compassion against majority thinking and blesed the woman against the majority!! i feel he does strive to teach people that he knows will listen. i do not veiw Jesus as having a my way or no way attitude!! he gives all many chances and calls many times screamming out "hey, listen your wrong, come learn of me, be with me for i love you." i do beleive he does have a cut off point though, for it says he would turn some to a reprobate mind. Jesus knew the minds of people and knew who would listen and who would'nt. he showed many times in scripture his feelings and wants, but people were not listening. Jesus wept, remember that one?

no, i dont go for the my way or no way uncaring view of God!!!(though there is only one way"Acts 2:38) thats my truth and the only truth the one God promotes. (TIOLI)                         -yo

[titushome]

Yo,

I think you're kinda going overboard here.  It's not that Jesus was not a kind, compassionate, loving, gentle person - of course He was all of those things, and much, much more.  But He did not pander.  He didn't just say what people wanted to hear.  He told the truth, and He did it with love.  He walked in the Spirit, even when doing so went against what was popular and accepted.  He recognized that He was a servant of God, and not of men; thus in all He did, He pleased the Father, rather than trying to be a man-pleaser.

It seems to me that you and OOJ are in agreement - you just misread what he wrote.

[yosemite]

That's so true.He also did not make any attempt to be liked or accepted by people.  He simply walked after the Spirit and went about His Father's business. Oh what an example to emulate.

It seems to me that you and OOJ are in agreement - you just misread what he wrote.

No, titushome, i didn't over do it, and i read what i read, and i don't believe it!!! it is my belief he made every possible attempt to be liked or rather to be loved and accepted by his people, the very scripture i quoted proves that!! in my opinion, that was his whole purpose, to win hearts and minds!! there is a old saying that i adhere to in cases like this.
it has two scenarios: you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink!!
  1. you can make him drink forcefully and drown him!!
  2. you can give him a salt lick and he will drink freely on his own!!

this is what i feel Jesus was doing scenario #2 when his disciples were leaving (i dont beleive this is the last they hear of Jesus and were later compelled to return). Jesus knew the minds of his people and was just waiting for them to get thirsty!! the other two post seem self righteous to me. sorry if i seem different or wrong to you but this is the way i feel. you need to re read the post yourself and see if you see what i see. after all (if you want to put the trinity in the mix) what was his fathers buisness??  winning hearts and minds freely without force!!
                                    -yo

[titushome]

it is my belief he made every possible attempt to be liked or rather to be loved and accepted by his people, the very scripture i quoted proves that!! in my opinion, that was his whole purpose, to win hearts and minds!!

Yes, Jesus was trying to win people's hearts and minds.  He knew the Truth, and He wanted to set His people free.

But His primary goal was not to be liked or accepted; His primary goal was to proclaim the Truth, to proclaim the Kingdom of God among us, to "set at liberty the captives."  Of course He wants every man and woman to accept Him, and to be accepted by Him; to enter into such a relationship with Him is nothing less than Life itself.  But He does not want to be "accepted" at the expense of Truth - such "acceptance" is only the acceptance of a lie, and not acceptance of the real Jesus Christ.

after all (if you want to put the trinity in the mix) what was his fathers buisness??

Speaking of Jesus' Father has nothing to do with the so-called trinity.  Jesus Himself spoke of His Father all the time.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Yo

I've re-read my post, trying to see where any mention or assertion was made regarding the points you listed. I don't see it. Scripture says Jesus grew in favor with God and Man. I can't recall the exact verse, but it also says He would not cry out in the streets, seeking to  make a name for Himself. He wasn't even exceptionally good looking. He was average.

Look at how many so-called "ministries" today go for the spot-light. They even name the ministries after themselves. Big names. Big shots. Big deal! Jesus went about His Father's business - every single day. His words and works spread w/o any self effort of His. He never sought the limelight. He never sought the approval of others. By approval, I mean watching the reactions of the crowd, or leadership and adjusting His words/actions accordingly. Look at politicians. Look at many ministers. Look at people!  Watch their actions and reactions. Jesus never did that.

If you've gotten a different slant than I... well, you got a different slant.

Peace.

[Brother Dad]

Look at how many so-called "ministries" today go for the spot-light.
Peace.

Shunks most of the time I just wish I could find my flashlight. lol

[yosemite]

Yes, Jesus was trying to win people's hearts and minds.  He knew the Truth, and He wanted to set His people free.

this i agree with.

But His primary goal was not to be liked or accepted

this i do not because it just by-passes his whole purpose. if you are not liked and accepted, then no one is gonna listen. though i do beleive what he done was not for self gain....in a way, but in a way wasnt it for self gain since we are his creation and he would receive us?  not that man without Christ is worth anything.

titushome, i'm not an intelectual by any means, but these are some things i beleive and i may be wrong some times. let me know when! there are some things i dont understand too!

i can go along with the rest of the post. thanks titushome    -yo

[yosemite]

Yo

I've re-read my post, trying to see where any mention or assertion was made regarding the points you listed. I don't see it. Scripture says Jesus grew in favor with God and Man. I can't recall the exact verse, but it also says He would not cry out in the streets, seeking to  make a name for Himself.  ( but he was making a name for his self. do you know of any one who has been as famous for as long for an act of such love? jesus has wept and made a name for hisself for there is no other name in which salvation is given)


He wasn't even exceptionally good looking. He was average. ( i never seen him in person, i dont know. besides i dont normally judge what other men look like!!)

Look at how many so-called "ministries" today go for the spot-light. They even name the ministries after themselves. Big names. Big shots. Big deal!
( this was mans ministry-and i agree it is wrong)

Jesus went about His Father's business - every single day. His words and works spread w/o any self effort of His. (that be-littles the work he done by way of neglecting the journey he made teaching not to mention being beaten and dying on the cross)

He never sought the limelight. He never sought the approval of others. By approval, I mean watching the reactions of the crowd, or leadership and adjusting His words/actions accordingly. Look at politicians. Look at many ministers. Look at people!  Watch their actions and reactions. Jesus never did that. ( so if everyone had fell down and worshiped him when he was here, you think he would have told them to stop-but i also do not think Jesus would change his words or actions to better suit man for it is glory to God and Gods plan only, not mans)

If you've gotten a different slant than I... well, you got a different slant. ( i may be an old slant six like dodge used to make)

Peace.

see added Quotes inside of quote insert!! let me know what you find is different and worthy of a slant.  -yo

[onli-one-jehovi]

Yo

I've re-read my post, trying to see where any mention or assertion was made regarding the points you listed. I don't see it. Scripture says Jesus grew in favor with God and Man. I can't recall the exact verse, but it also says He would not cry out in the streets, seeking to  make a name for Himself.  ( but he was making a name for his self. do you know of any one who has been as famous for as long for an act of such love? jesus has wept and made a name for hisself for there is no other name in which salvation is given)


He wasn't even exceptionally good looking. He was average. ( i never seen him in person, i dont know. besides i dont normally judge what other men look like!!)

Look at how many so-called "ministries" today go for the spot-light. They even name the ministries after themselves. Big names. Big shots. Big deal!
( this was mans ministry-and i agree it is wrong)

Jesus went about His Father's business - every single day. His words and works spread w/o any self effort of His. (that be-littles the work he done by way of neglecting the journey he made teaching not to mention being beaten and dying on the cross)

He never sought the limelight. He never sought the approval of others. By approval, I mean watching the reactions of the crowd, or leadership and adjusting His words/actions accordingly. Look at politicians. Look at many ministers. Look at people!  Watch their actions and reactions. Jesus never did that. ( so if everyone had fell down and worshiped him when he was here, you think he would have told them to stop-but i also do not think Jesus would change his words or actions to better suit man for it is glory to God and Gods plan only, not mans)

If you've gotten a different slant than I... well, you got a different slant. ( i may be an old slant six like dodge used to make)

Peace.

see added Quotes inside of quote insert!! let me know what you find is different and worthy of a slant.  -yo

I think we're on two different wave-lengths here, but I'll try. 



( but he was making a name for his self. do you know of any one who has been as famous for as long for an act of such love? jesus has wept and made a name for hisself for there is no other name in which salvation is given)

Scripture says:

GOD has highly exalted Him and {GOD has} given Him a name which is above every name. (Phillipians 2:9)

Jesus manifested & lifted up the Father's name, not His own. (John 5:43; 10:25; 12:28; 17:6; 17:11; 17:12; 17:26)

Everything Jesus did was to the glory of His Father and not for Himself. The glory Jesus received was a gift of God.



( i never seen him in person, i dont know. besides i dont normally judge what other men look like!!)[/b]

Just going by scripture. Isa 53:2... he hath no form or comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Jesus said unto them, "Whom seek ye?" They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. (John 18:4-5)

Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I kiss, that same is he: and he came to Jesus and kissed him.  (Mt 26:48-49)
This insinuates Jesus was less than exceptual and blended in with humanity.



Jesus went about His Father's business - every single day. His words and works spread w/o any self effort of His.(that be-littles the work he done by way of neglecting the journey he made teaching not to mention being beaten and dying on the cross)


The journey He made, the teaching He did, the beating He took, and death on the cross - all this was the Father's business{plan}. For this cause was I born; to this end came I into the world.  (John 6:38; 8:42; 12:27; 18:37; Mk 10:45)


( so if everyone had fell down and worshiped him when he was here, you think he would have told them to stop-[/b]but i also do not think Jesus would change his words or actions to better suit man for it is glory to God and Gods plan only, not mans)[/b]

No, I do not think He would have told them to stop. Those that did fall down at His feet, -as well as those that worshipped Him-, were never admonished not to do so. The bulk of the populace did not recognize Him. Thus, the majority did not worship.

The key to Jesus was He sought only to glorify His Father and never to glorify Himself. He left that up to GOD. We are to seek only to glorify the Father thru/in Christ. We are to never glorify ourselves by seeking attention. We are not to do anything thru/in ourselves. Therein lies idolatry, claiming the glory that belongs to the LORD, for ourselves. Jesus was dead to Himself, willing Himself to do only what He saw the Father do; and say only what He heard the Father say. That is what we must emulate.

Better?

[yosemite]

The key to Jesus was He sought only to glorify His Father and never to glorify Himself. He left that up to GOD. We are to seek only to glorify the Father thru/in Christ. We are to never glorify ourselves by seeking attention. We are not to do anything thru/in ourselves. Therein lies idolatry, claiming the glory that belongs to the LORD, for ourselves. Jesus was dead to Himself, willing Himself to do only what He saw the Father do; and say only what He heard the Father say. That is what we must emulate.

Better?

almost, except for the trinity bit. other than that, we on the same page!  -yo

[onli-one-jehovi]

The key to Jesus was He sought only to glorify His Father and never to glorify Himself. He left that up to GOD. We are to seek only to glorify the Father thru/in Christ. We are to never glorify ourselves by seeking attention. We are not to do anything thru/in ourselves. Therein lies idolatry, claiming the glory that belongs to the LORD, for ourselves. Jesus was dead to Himself, willing Himself to do only what He saw the Father do; and say only what He heard the Father say. That is what we must emulate.

Better?

almost, except for the trinity bit. other than that, we on the same page!  -yo

ok.     

[titushome]

The key to Jesus was He sought only to glorify His Father and never to glorify Himself. He left that up to GOD. We are to seek only to glorify the Father thru/in Christ. We are to never glorify ourselves by seeking attention. We are not to do anything thru/in ourselves. Therein lies idolatry, claiming the glory that belongs to the LORD, for ourselves. Jesus was dead to Himself, willing Himself to do only what He saw the Father do; and say only what He heard the Father say. That is what we must emulate.

Better?

almost, except for the trinity bit. other than that, we on the same page!  -yo

Where in there are you reading about a trinity?  There's nothing in any of OOJ's statements that you won't find more or less word-for-word in the Gospel books.

[yosemite]

The key to Jesus was He sought only to glorify His Father and never to glorify Himself. He left that up to GOD. We are to seek only to glorify the Father thru/in Christ.  Jesus was dead to Himself, willing Himself to do only what He saw the Father do; and say only what He heard the Father say.

Better?

almost, except for the trinity bit. other than that, we on the same page!  -yo

ok.     

the quote that jesus never glorified hisself and being dead to his self is not in scripture and i beleive jesus is god. so how would he be dead to his self and not glorify his self?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Yo

It has nothing to do with Jesus being God. This deals with Jesus being Man. Scripture says: He took not the nature of angels, but {nature of} the seed of Abraham.

As Man, Jesus had a God-given will that had to be brought under subjection to the Will of God, His Father. Just as our self-wills do. That's what scripture means to be "dead to self". Did not Jesus repeatedly say – "Not my will but thine"?  Same thing.

Jesus didn't glorify Himself in the sense of seeking fame and recognition. He repeatedly told the healed to "Tell no one". He refused to blow trumpets or make a big fanfare at His arrival. He told the crowds it was God doing the work and not Himself. He did not seek the spotlight.

Both concepts are everywhere in the gospels and scripture. Just as Jesus referencing God as His Father. This isn't a religious addition centuries later. This is a direct identifier by Jesus Christ. In fact, the Pharisees were also offended at His words. The concept of God being relational as "Father" was beyond them. They too thought they were protecting their beliefs.

(A rule of thumb that has benefited me: Whenever the Pharisees, Sadducees, and I agree on anything; that's a good sign I need to re-examine my understanding. I just might be missing what the Bible really says.)

I understand how key words trigger the "Apostolic defense mechanism", but I still do not understand why.       Jesus Christ - the Messiah, the Savior of the world – called God, His Father; and God – Yahweh, the Creator of all things – called Jesus, His Son. Can it get any plainer? Relationship, not Godship.


Rest assured, this has been an area of misunderstanding for centuries. Carrying over into the 21st is no big deal.