Apostolic Truth Questions

[Brother Dad]

Oh my the hand can not do the job of the head, nor can my eyes hear or my ears see.  God has set members in the body where it pleases Him.  A good Pastor is not a dictator, but an overseer.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1 Tim 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1985 ~episkopov~ episkopos \@ep-is'-kop-os\@
  from 1909 and 4649 (in the sense of 1983); TDNT-2:608,244; n m
  AV-bishop 6, overseer 1; 7
  1) an overseer
    1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done
        by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or
        superintendent
    1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

God leaves nothing to chance, He has an order we must all follow.  I will agree some Pastors carry it too far, but this does not mean we can change God's order.

Some years ago I came across the New Apostolic Church.  I ask there Elder if the believed in Prophesy, He said we used to but so many people misused it we ask God to take it out of the Church and He did.  Just because someone misuses the postion God has placed them in does not mean we can do away with it.

[titushome]

Oh my the hand can not do the job of the head, nor can my eyes hear or my ears see.  God has set members in the body where it pleases Him.

Exactly!  But the problem we're discussing is that many a pastor functions as the head of the church he pastors, and many are even so bold as to refer to themselves as the head - I've heard it with my own ears!

Jesus alone is the Head, and a pastor is a subsidiary part of the Body just as any other saint.  As a part of the Body, he has a special role to perform - just as does every saint.  But he is not the Head.

[Brother Dad]

I too agree that there are those who have tryed to take on God's role.  But also we must never leave the impression that we do not need the Pastor.  God has set them in the Church for a purpose and we would not want anyone to think we did not follow God's plan.

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

[Rattlesnake]

Oh my the hand can not do the job of the head, nor can my eyes hear or my ears see.  God has set members in the body where it pleases Him.

Exactly!  But the problem we're discussing is that many a pastor functions as the head of the church he pastors, and many are even so bold as to refer to themselves as the head - I've heard it with my own ears!

Jesus alone is the Head, and a pastor is a subsidiary part of the Body just as any other saint.  As a part of the Body, he has a special role to perform - just as does every saint.  But he is not the Head.

There is a natural order we must follow here on this earth as long as we are here, like it or not, Pastors, apostles, teacher's all have their proper place in the kingdom and here on earth, answering the call to the office in which they were appointed by Christ himself, To deny the Natural Order of things and the submission thereof, is to display a complete lack of understanding of the very thing that Jesus himself expects us to follow.

All through bible history, God chose men to lead his people, not once in scripture have I found where God chose to go and do it himself! Not only did he choose men to lead his people, he punished (and very severely I might add) the ones who did not obey his hand picked leaders!

Sure, we belong to Christ, but we still live here, and until he comes, it would be advised to all, to submit yourselves to those who have athority over you, or else, when an account for you're soul is given - it will be given in sorrow!

[Brother Dad]

We can call him by many different names, but the fact is the early Church did and the Church still does have abn overseer.

1985 episkopov episkopos ep-is'-kop-os
from 1909 and 4649 (in the sense of 1983); TDNT-2:608,244; n m
AV-bishop 6, overseer 1; 7
1) an overseer
1a) a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
1b) the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

God is not the Author of confusion. 
1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

[Brother Dad]

Now as for assembling ourselves together.  It is evident that the early Church did both, gathered in the House of God as well as fellowshipped outside of the House of God.

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[Rattlesnake]

What one tends to forget, is the fact that the keys to the kingdom itself, were given to mere men. As Jesus clearly states, Whasoever was bound on Earth, was bound in Heaven, Whatsoever was loosed on earth, was loosed in heaven! (He was talking to the Apostles) This dosen't sound like mere men who had no athority! So, in answer to the statement "there is no athority except Christ", is to deny the fact that these "mere men" hold the keys to Heaven, and dictated the path in which we are to take if we make it.

Not at any time did Jesus tell anyone, "you only have to answer to me"!   

[Brother Dad]

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

There a plan of God.  It doesn't matter if some people misused their role or not.  It will not change the plan God has set up in the Church. 

[OGIA]

Ok, OOJ & Titushome -  I've read your posts.  Now, reconcile YOUR expounded belief systems with what Paul had to say in Acts 20:28-30

28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

I posted this same passage to OOJ a couple of weeks back (maybe on a different thread?).  It's seems pretty clear what the terminology refers to, IMO.   

[Raven180]

I'm not planning on wading too deeply into the whole pastor debate.

Just wanted to say this:

"Pastor" has become something of a catchall phrase. There are people who are titled pastors that I submit are really functioning in the office of, or are perhaps used by God as, an apostle, or perhaps as a prophet and/or as a teacher. (No, I'm not turning this into a debate about whether apostles and prophets still exist, etc.)

And there are people who aren't considered to be "pastors" because they aren't officially licensed, let say, with a particular organization, or because no one gives them that title, or because they aren't the ones who speak/preach/teach on a frequent basis, and yet they are very much pastoring in the sense of shepherding or overseeing certain aspects of Christ's Body.

I'm not officially decrying the misuse of titles, or anything. Just pointing out, that by definition, there are those who are likely not pastors, per se, just as there are those who actually are pastors, but not recognized as such.

So maybe it would help the discussion to come to a consensus regarding who and what a pastor actually is, versus who and what a pastor is not.

Peace,

Aaron

[jdcord]

20 page limit.  Sorry guys.