The Bible: Understand, or Just Believe?

[doogie]

Jerry,

While your writings are offensive, I personally am up to the task of accepting your offenses without being harmed in any way. 

I am curious if you fit in any of the scenarios below:

a)  You go to church, put on a smile and act like part of the crowd, then get on here and anonomously reveal how you really feel about doctrine, your pastor, etc.

b)  Un-pastorable, you are a church of one.  The First Church Of Jerry. 

When considered as a whole, your writings depict a person devoid of basic scriptural understanding.  You actually made the comment on another post that a common false teaching of the church is "The 'sacredness' of Jews and Israel..."  One need dig no further than this to realize that you do not comprehend even the most basic premises of the book you claim to know so well.

Shalom.

[onli-one-jehovi]

John & Doogie

The point I have been unable to get across is not do 'away with pastors and leadership'. That is how it is being taken. The point is: the church system - as we now know and practice - overall, does not line up with scripture. The leadership authority - as we now know and practice - does not line up with scripture. It lines up more with the World system. That's all I'm saying.

Do we need leadership? Of course we do. The elder look after the younger. A pastor is basically an elder anyway. But he is not Father.

My covering is Jesus Christ. He is the Head. I answer to Him.

The pastor of the church I attend is a counsel and elder whose advice I consider. Just as I consider the advice of all those whom I entrust in my life. No one man is a single authority over me. No one. That is the province of Christ alone. I refuse to put myself under that religious requirement again.

This reminds me of the account in Acts, where some were of Paul, Apollos, and Peter. That was fine until somebody said: I'm of Christ! Christ is my head. Christ is my covering. Christ is my teacher. I think it bothers you to trust wholly in the Lord. I think it bothers you that someone may be willing to do that w/o the "approval" of "the pastor". I think it beyond comprehension to be equal as brethren to "the ministry".

Un-pastorable? In the context of unquestionable submission to unscriptural, religious authority where pastor is my head/voice/covering of God?

Yes. Guilty of that.

Un-pastorable? In the context of refusing input, experience, wisdom, advice from the gifted in the Body?   No. That is not the case.

I'll say again: I am against RELIGION. I am not against pastoring. We are all to pastor - in a sense. That doesn't give us authority over someone's life. I doesn't mean they answer to us. It means they have entrusted us to help guide them in a portion of their life. That's all.

Maybe Godplace isn't the place to talk about alot of this. I just know that I was trapped in religion. I just know that breaking those bonds has been and is still one of the most difficult things to overcome. I just know that the entire Church needs to come out of Babylon and make the journey to Zion. I just know that there are some members of the Body on this site who desire the same thing. They might not know it. They might not recognize the desire to be from God. Maybe I haven't been the most articulate. Maybe I haven't been clear enough. But I'm talking about things the pulpit won't. At least, the pulpit as a whole. Things to think about. Thinks to ponder. Things to decide.

Controversial? Contentious? Absolutely. The offense is against the mixture of leaven/unleaven called religion. Straining out the two always brings a rending. It is not understood by the Babylonian church system. It is not understood by many in the Body.

Jesus said to come out from her lest you partake of her sins. Until we can come out physically, we'd best come out spiritually.

[OGIA]

The point I have been unable to get across is not do 'away with pastors and leadership'. That is how it is being taken. The point is: the church system - as we now know and practice - overall, does not line up with scripture. The leadership authority - as we now know and practice - does not line up with scripture. It lines up more with the World system. That's all I'm saying.

Jerry,

I never took you to be saying "do away with" the pastor.  I did take you to say that the pastor shouldn't be someone "above" the saints. 

I posted some definitions that seemed to elevate this office above the ordinary saint in the congregation.  Not to a point of lording or exaltation, but as the words are defined.  And, as I said, the good pastors KNOW THIS.  They exercise their authority scripturally.

Maybe you'd comment on this post: http://godplace.com/forum/index.php?topic=28796.msg785062#msg785062

[onli-one-jehovi]

The point I have been unable to get across is not do 'away with pastors and leadership'. That is how it is being taken. The point is: the church system - as we now know and practice - overall, does not line up with scripture. The leadership authority - as we now know and practice - does not line up with scripture. It lines up more with the World system. That's all I'm saying.

Jerry,

I never took you to be saying "do away with" the pastor.  I did take you to say that the pastor shouldn't be someone "above" the saints. 

I posted some definitions that seemed to elevate this office above the ordinary saint in the congregation.  Not to a point of lording or exaltation, but as the words are defined.  And, as I said, the good pastors KNOW THIS.  They exercise their authority scripturally.

Maybe you'd comment on this post: http://godplace.com/forum/index.php?topic=28796.msg785062#msg785062

"Above" the saints in the context of - superior.  "Above" the saints in the context of - better. "Above" the saints in the context of - holier. "Above" the saints in the context of - head.

That's what I'm talking about. I think we're having the same conversation in two different topics. Check the AMERICA READY topic.

Yes, good pastors do not lord over. The point is that they are not lords at all. Shepherding is basically overseeing the welfare of the sheep. Their advice and counsel should be considered, but they are not to take the place of the Holy Ghost in the life of a saint. A pastor is also an elder, according to scripture.

Looking at Ephesians, we see the ministry is designed to bring the saint to maturity {perfection}. It is designed to oversee growth from "milk" to "meat".  Our present system and mindset after 1700 yrs of darkness has transformed this function into an office of rulership over the Body. The natural process of the elder looking out for the younger has been corrupted into a coup for power. Again, not every pastor - but the system as a whole.

I ask again: Why does the church have a problem with Jesus being the Head? Why does the church balk at being led by and answering to the Spirit?

I've heard it stated numerous times that the pastor answers to God and God will straighten him out. What makes him so much holier than anyone else? Why does the Holy Ghost have to tell the pastor how to straighten a saint out? Does not the Holy Ghost indwell within us? Can not the Holy Ghost speak w/o the need for a human mediator? After all, this isn't the Old Testament.

I think most Christians do not want to hear personally from God. The voice of God sounds like thunder and it scares them. So the saints reject God and choose a pastor {king} to rule over them and hear from God in their stead.

Scripture shows us that the Apostles/ministry in Acts routinely left the people w/o a "leader". It was years afterward when elders were appointed in each city to "oversee" the saints. Our method is a mixture of scripture and tradition. It is that I am against. We need to be aware and work diligently at distilling the leaven.


I may or may not answer the message you requested. I try to avoid some outcomes.

[onli-one-jehovi]

  I challenge to teach a Bible study to someone and watch God convict them, Then Baptize them in Jesus name and let God fill them with the Holy Ghost.  Teach them to Assembly themselves with believer like the Bible says, so they can be saved.  I do not have anything against OOJ or Titushome.  I do desire that they too be saved.  I do disagree with the doctrine they teach as they do me.  And yes there are snakes in the grass.  If someone feels that I am referring to them let them check theirselves and see.  I can assure you there are now and always will be snakes in the grass.  And the term snake in the grass is not attached to anyones name.  So please stop the attachs.  I stand by my statement there are and will always be those that like to stir up strife and trouble.

I said I probably wouldn't comment but I will after all. I will answer as the person being spoken to.

***********************

I challenge to teach a Bible study to someone and watch God convict them, Then Baptize them in Jesus name and let God fill them with the Holy Ghost.  Teach them to Assembly themselves with believer like the Bible says, so they can be saved.

Why do you assume this hasn't been done? Do you erroneously believe this to be solely sanctioned by a "Pastor" or "Minister"? Is the "Headship" only authorized for such actions?

Jesus said to His disciples: Go ye therefore, and teach {make disciples} all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

That command incorporates every member of His Body! Does not apply only to the "ministry". You know nothing of my past or present works.

*****

I do not have anything against OOJ or Titushome.  I do desire that they too be saved.

Where do you get off determining the salvation of anyone? Especially the brethren? We are strictly told not to do exactly that. But I guess those who title themselves "Pastor" are exempt.

*****
I do disagree with the doctrine they teach as they do me.

You have a question.... ask.    You have a comment..... post.   

How else will we ever come to any semblance of understanding and unity? If you took half the time to seriously ponder, pray over, & consider things said, instead of immediately crying -SNAKE! - it just might be you would realize the truth in it. Or, you just might be better equipped to offer any corrective insight. But instead, you do this:

They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance....

...people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over....

...Some people feel they have out grown God's plan....

...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.

...And yes there are snakes in the grass.  If someone feels that I am referring to them let them check theirselves and see.  I can assure you there are now and always will be snakes in the grass.  And the term snake in the grass is not attached to anyones name.

And that's not counting the numerous  -false teacher, false prophet, devil, troublemaker, etc - strewn about the forum. I really can't remember them all. The only one I'm pretty sure about is "brother". I don't think that one is in there.

***

So please stop the attachs

Because you were told to "say it to my face" and "keep it to yourself"?    Let me put up my stones.

*****

I stand by my statement there are and will always be those that like to stir up strife and trouble.

This I agree with 100%. Just not in the manner intended.

*****
Brother, I say this to your face, not hidden behind ambiguous words. I don't want to because of how it will be taken. I really just want to ignore you totally, but it seems I am not allowed to do so. I know you are a good man who loves God; serving Him to your best ability. I know that you are simply trying to defend your truth & understanding. You've publically called me all kinds of names, and that's ok. I forgive you. But that phrase keeps coming back and won't let up. So here goes. I mean this with no personal malice at all...


You're a whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones. Dried up bones of judgment and condemnations that should have passed away years ago. Bones with no living muscle and sinew; no marrow to provide growth. Dead men's bones frozen in religion. You need to repent and ask God to create living bones structured in His unleavened Word, not the dead bones of religious tradition.


I think the Lord has been talking to you about some things and really wants to see change. What it is... I don't know. That's just what came to me. Dead bones and repentance. We can all examine that.

[Brother Dad]

My OOJ how ugly of words you use against me.  I have yet to refer to you in that matter and would refuse to.  It has been my understanding that any such direct attacks would result in the Mods intervening and correction taken.    To say I wish for someone to be saved is not saying they are not already.  As a matter of fact I believe Paul said that.  My desire is to see everyone saved.  For you to lash out with the slanderous remarks shows that you my friend have a bad spirit.  I am not sure of what type but you my friend are showing you know not near as much about love or the Word of God as you would like for us to know.  Everytime I post something you take offence to it and say it is a bout you.  All I can say if the shoe fits then wear it, if it don't leave it alone.  As far as posting and trying to show you anything in the Word of God I have seen long ago you have your mind set and are unchangeable.  My suggestion is that we pray one for another.  I do see errors in your way of thought and I do see nothing I can say will ever change you, but I can pray for you.  I will continue to warn people anytime I see false teachings spreading across here or getting taught anywhere.

Yes I am firm in what I know and teach and on the otherhand I try to be very understanding of people and their needs.  I don't know but people say I am easy to talk to.  And I don't go around judging people for what they do or don't do.  I simply preach the Word and leave the actions up to the people.  My reputation among  Church folks will speak for itself.  So next time I make a statement and you or Titus home says it is about you, go pray and if the shoe fits try to change and not be that way.  If it is not you then there are others who would stir up trouble. 

As far as leaving you along I have tried not to post anything or comment to what you are posting because I know that will fuel your fire.  This all started because I warned someone to be careful on here.  Then when I try to fix it with a nice challenge to reach the lost you then became offensive at that.  I am sure we could all stand to do a little soul winning.  So if you are offended by my remark about teaching Bible Studies then you my friend have a very serious problem and it is not with me.  I encourage you to please pray before you come out with such outlandish remarks that you made to me not once but twice, for they only hurt you.

May we all be saved!!

[titushome]

You're a whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones. Dried up bones of judgment and condemnations that should have passed away years ago. Bones with no living muscle and sinew; no marrow to provide growth. Dead men's bones frozen in religion. You need to repent and ask God to create living bones structured in His unleavened Word, not the dead bones of religious tradition.

This is not a defense of OOJ, and should not be taken as such.  God knows his heart, and if his words were spoken in the wrong spirit God will chasten him for it.

But remember that Jesus spoke similar words, and was entirely righteous in doing so.  Just because someone speaks "ugly" words does not automatically make that person wrong for it.  Just something to think about.

[bishopnl]

Congratulations.  I think we can all safely say that the Bible discussions area has become the least godly discussion area on the forum. 

I think it would be a good idea to re-read Scotts warning posted a month or two ago at the top of this area.  This isn't the temple, and nobody on here is the equivalent of Jesus casting out the money changers or rebuking the Pharisees.  That means that thinly veiled accusations or direct accusations are not in line.  If you want to issue "warnings" or slam each other, do it through pm or via email.  I, personally, am sick of having to wade through this garbage to get to any relevant material.  When people are staying away from the BIBLE area of the forum, I'd say that there might be a problem. 

That means enough "subtle" provocation of people by posting general accusations and denying they apply to any specific person, or direct provocation by posting specific accusations.  Satan is the accuser of the brethren, not us.