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The Angels from Matthew 13:24-43

Started by Raven180, March 07, 2014, 08:43:35 AM

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Raven180

Matthew 13:24-43,


Quote24. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28. He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29. But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
31. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32. Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
33. Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
34. All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
36. Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42. And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Can anyone provide information regarding this parable, specifically as it relates to the angels mentioned? What I am looking for is evidence either for or against the idea that these angels are spirit beings only, as opposed to the possibility of them being human messengers.

And even if you can't offer proof, per se, I would still like to read opinions on the matter.

And by the way, I am not looking to argue the point in either direction; rather I am looking to settle something in my own understanding of the passage.

Thanks
_____________
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Melody

I can't reconcile men putting people actually in hell. 

Have you read it in the Greek/Hebrew? 

Raven180

Quote from: MellowYellow on March 07, 2014, 02:07:50 PM
I can't reconcile men putting people actually in hell. 

Have you read it in the Greek/Hebrew?

I haven't done an in-depth study of the Greek, yet.

As far as "men putting people actually in hell", is it possible that men of God, led by the Spirit, who are required by Scripture to mark them which cause division (Romans 16:17), ex-communicate unrepentant fornicators, et al (1 Corinthians 5), and decide who does or does not get to partake in the love feast, i.e. communion (2 Peter 2:13, Jude 1:12), by excluding some for these reasons, indicate that when such people are so excluded (as long as it is for legitimate Biblical reasons) they are then to be considered lost, and so, will be consigned to the flames of eternal torment should they never repent?

We are going to judge angels, right? If we sit in judgment over angels of God (fallen, no doubt) and help in determining their eternal fate, why not mere humans, who are created lower than them?
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Lynx

All the verses you cited were for promoting harmony (or at least discouraging discord) in the church.  Excommunication does not send people to hell.  If it did, the Interdict would be satan's best friend. 
"Do you sing at church?"
"Yes I sing at church, I sing at home, at work, in the car, at the supermarket, at Wal-Mart..."
:sing: :sing: :sing: :sing: :sing: :sing:

Melody

#4
QuoteWe are going to judge angels, right? If we sit in judgment over angels of God (fallen, no doubt) and help in determining their eternal fate, why not mere humans, who are created lower than them?

In the end yes, but in this life on earth we do not judge someone's eternity. Love hopes all things. 

I think I understand where younare coming from and trying to weigh but it is not in line with the overall book of Matthew, the overall mesage of the Gospels, the overall message of the NT nor the overall message of the Bible. 

An under shepherd may need to ex-communicate in extreme cases but a true under shepherd doesnt put them in hell. If anything he pleads with God for their soul.   

I would seriously try the spirit of a man that uses this passage to back his "authority."

What is a pastor but a governmental office and ministry of intercession?  Standing in the gap and discipling.  Is the authority to ex-communicate for the purpose to protect the rest of the flock?  If it was more than that why does God allow for tares with the wheat?

If Christ came not to condemn the world until He judges from the throne, and we are to be like Christ, how do we justify judging one's eternity?  We can judge right from wrong, we can declare what is what, but unless GOD says they're done, God gives them time.  Time is mercy to repent. 

I'll come back and site scripture reference from my computer, later.

Truth always falls in line with the message of its chapter, book, testament and Bible. 

So my first question is does the idea of a pastor putting people in hell line up with God's word to us of His GREAT love and tender mercies that does not deter from His forever Holiness? 

Raven180

#5
Hi, Mel

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to try a point by point answer and explanation. It might clarify where I'm coming from.

QuoteIn the end yes, but in this life on earth we do not judge someone's eternity. Love hopes all things.

We aren't the final arbiter of anyone's soul. But we are expected by the Lord to judge righteous judgment, and to make judgments in the Church regarding various situations that arise. All should be led by the Spirit, of course. But I think we can safely believe that as the commissioned agents, we play a role, through planting and watering, in whether people are saved.

All of humanity is already under the curse of sin and the wages thereof. All people's eternity, without Christ, is already decided upon. So, to admit that some are eternally lost is merely acknowledging an obvious Scriptural truth. But it doesn't make us judges over them.

And in regards to the parable, we are told that they are tares, planted by the Enemy. These most likely should be considered children of the devil, that is, all those who intentionally continue in/habitually sin (1 John 3:10). And such people will receive their just reward: death. It's got very little to do with us, except for our responsibility to not keep company with them, and make sure we as the Body, remain pure, not "partaking in other men's sins" (1 Timothy 5:22). And when we do so, or rather, when the elders and leaders of a local assembly, under both the commandments of the Lord as found in the Word, and from an unction from the Holy Spirit, have to remove a member for habitual unrighteousness, does it not indicate, as the Lord said in Matthew 18:17, that such a person is to be considered a "heathen" and a "publican"? There, in that chapter, Jesus said whatsoever is bound on earth is bound in heaven. If a person is legitimately removed from the church and ought to be so considered on earth, then they are most definitely so considered in heaven.

This is the role men have to play.

QuoteI think I understand where you are coming from and trying to weigh but it is not in line with the overall book of Matthew, the overall message of the Gospels, the overall message of the NT nor the overall message of the Bible.

Please share your view of this, so I can understand what you mean.

QuoteAn under shepherd may need to ex-communicate in extreme cases but a true under shepherd doesn't put them in hell. If anything he pleads with God for their soul.

I agree whole-heartedly. But removing a person from the church is essentially removing them from the body and blood of the Lord. That's what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 5. Purge out the leaven of the feast of charity, and don't even eat (that is, partake of communion) with them. Once someone has been ex-communicated and can no longer share in the communal meal that shows the Lord's death until He comes, they, if what Jesus said in John 6:53-56 is true, and it is, then that person no longer dwells in Christ, nor Christ in them. They have lost eternal life.

This isn't about Catholic, mystical trans-substantiation or anything of the sort. But it is about unity, brotherhood, and continued fellowship with the Savior through the Spirit. A person who needs to be removed from the church can no longer be thought of as the temple.

This is why ex-communication is so extreme. But it's also why Paul vehemently commanded it in the name of the Lord Jesus. People who claim to be our brothers and sisters, who habitually sin and contaminate the Body must be purged out. Of course this should lead to tears, weeping, mourning, fasting, intercession, and pleading by the elders and leaders.

But look how Paul commended the Corinthians when they obeyed him (See 2 Corinthians 7). Now it happened that the man who had to be purged repented and was enjoined by Paul to be welcomed back into their assembly. But not all who are so removed ever repent.

In this way then, humans bear the responsibility of having to be the one's to pass judgment on backslidders who are counting the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ an unholy thing, even as the crucify the Son of God afresh.

QuoteI would seriously try the spirit of a man that uses this passage to back his "authority."

Do you mean the parable I shared in the first post?

If so, then I think you might be misunderstanding where I'm coming from. I'm not looking for proof-texts for the right to ex-communicate and condemn people to hell. I'm merely looking to see if humans, and not angels, in this parable, can at all be meant. There is enough spiritual abuse in the Kingdom. I will not add to it by giving anyone license through a mis-appropriation of Scripture.

If anything, the reason I posted this and am replying this way, is so I can knock the walls down from the very case I am making, and so, prove without a shadow of a doubt, to my own mind, at least, that spirit being angels, and not humans, are the only way to understand the parable. So far, I haven't yet been able to do so. And until I can, my understanding of this passage is lacking.

QuoteWhat is a pastor but a governmental office and ministry of intercession?  Standing in the gap and discipling.  Is the authority to ex-communicate for the purpose to protect the rest of the flock?  If it was more than that why does God allow for tares with the wheat?

It's got to be for the protection of the flock, but also, I would add, for the continued glory of God, so that neither He nor His Son, are blasphemed by those who say they are saints but are not, in the minds of unbelievers.

Romans 2:4,

4. For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

As to why God would allow tares to grow in with the wheat, I cannot say more than what the Lord said. He said that pulling the tares could uproot the wheat, too. But notice that the field in which both the wheat and the tares are planted is not the church. It is the world. Backsliders were once upon time, stalks of wheat, too. They can be uprooted when necessary. But tares, i.e. those lost souls and children of the devil, are different. We cannot separate ourselves from them, else we would never be able to fulfill the Great Commission.

QuoteIf Christ came not to condemn the world until He judges from the throne, and we are to be like Christ, how do we justify judging one's eternity?

We can know through the Word, fairly accurately, who is and who is not saved, or who is going to heaven and who is not. Have you ever shared the Gospel with someone or led someone to Christ and seen that person be saved? If so, you had to have made a determination (that is, a judgment) that the person was not saved and so, not bound for heaven, else why evangelize them?

QuoteWe can judge right from wrong, we can declare what is what, but unless GOD says they're done, God gives them time.  Time is mercy to repent.

Yes, I agree. But I also believe the Lord communicates such a declaration of His will to His people. Christ's friends know what the master is doing. If the Lord has cut someone off, He will do nothing except He reveal it to His servants the prophets.

QuoteI'll come back and site scripture reference from my computer, later.

10/4. No rush. Thanks.

QuoteTruth always falls in line with the message of its chapter, book, testament and Bible.

Yup. The challenge is to rightly divide the Word. We tend to fail more times than we succeed. Hence why I am asking what I am asking, so that some iron can sharpen iron, and I can figure this parable out.

QuoteSo my first question is does the idea of a pastor putting people in hell line up with God's word to us of His GREAT love and tender mercies that does not deter from His forever Holiness?

Again, I don't see it as pastors (or anyone else) "putting people in hell". More like, if the angels of the parable are men, do they, as agents of Messiah, have a function whereby they are allowed by God to make a distinction and separation, such that, as they sit in judgment with Christ, they, as joint-heirs, somehow play a part. Church leaders are to give an account to the Lord for those they persuade and lead (Hebrews 13:17). In this accounting, it can be done with either joy or grief, right? And wouldn't the grief be for those unruly, un-submissive to the Word, who are endangering their own souls with habitual sin members of the Body of Christ?

In this, the elders and leaders, knowing the promises of the Word, and knowing that the Lord takes no pleasure in a soul who draws back, who know it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, even as they plead and intercede for mercy, still have a job to do if and when the Lord moves them to act.

At such a time, it's of the Lord's doing. Elders and leaders can only obey what God has commanded them to do. And if by so doing, the person in question ends up condemned to an eternity without Him, the condemnation came from God and not the elders and leaders (anymore than it came from spirit beings who, if that's what these angels in the parable are, are just doing their job in obeying the Lord).
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Lynx

Quote from: Raven180 on March 13, 2014, 08:48:34 AM
In this way then, humans bear the responsibility of having to be the one's to pass judgment on backslidders who are counting the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ an unholy thing, even as the crucify the Son of God afresh.
Wow...  :o
*backs away slowly*

I was once a backslider, in that I grew up in church but walked away from it for a while.  I sure hope nobody passed judgment on me.
"Do you sing at church?"
"Yes I sing at church, I sing at home, at work, in the car, at the supermarket, at Wal-Mart..."
:sing: :sing: :sing: :sing: :sing: :sing:

Raven180

Quote from: Psalm_97 on March 13, 2014, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: Raven180 on March 13, 2014, 08:48:34 AM
In this way then, humans bear the responsibility of having to be the one's to pass judgment on backslidders who are counting the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ an unholy thing, even as the crucify the Son of God afresh.
Wow...  :o
*backs away slowly*

I was once a backslider, in that I grew up in church but walked away from it for a while.  I sure hope nobody passed judgment on me.

In terms of having to decide whether or not the backslider is allowed to still attend the assembly and partake of the communal experience, absolutely. Some walk away of their own accord, as they are free to do, and no one then has to do a thing.

But imagine a backslider sitting in the pews, causing disruption, disunity, discord,  division, trying to indoctrinate falsely, selling drugs to the youth, or attempting to seduce and commit adultery with a brother's wife, and etc. The elders and leaders definitely have to make a decision about such a person, and using Spirit-led judgment, decide if such a person needs to be removed/banned from attending.
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Lynx

Yes, to promote and maintain unity in the church body and avoid discord, strife, etc.  But nowhere does the Bible say anything about any human judging any other in regard to the person's salvation. 

The bible does say this though, in Romans 14:10-13 -

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
-
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
"Do you sing at church?"
"Yes I sing at church, I sing at home, at work, in the car, at the supermarket, at Wal-Mart..."
:sing: :sing: :sing: :sing: :sing: :sing:

Melody

I'm trying to understand you but I hear two different premises to the subject text based on IF men were the angels spoken of.

1. That men of God merely proclaim what God tells them to.

QuoteAt such a time, it's of the Lord's doing. Elders and leaders can only obey what God has commanded them to do. And if by so doing, the person in question ends up condemned to an eternity without Him, the condemnation came from God and not the elders and leaders (anymore than it came from spirit beings who, if that's what these angels in the parable are, are just doing their job in obeying the Lord)

QuoteWe aren't the final arbiter of anyone's soul.

All people's eternity, without Christ, is already decided upon. So, to admit that some are eternally lost is merely acknowledging an obvious Scriptural truth. But it doesn't make us judges over them.

...does it not indicate, as the Lord said in Matthew 18:17, that such a person is to be considered a "heathen" and a "publican"? There, in that chapter, Jesus said whatsoever is bound on earth is bound in heaven. If a person is legitimately removed from the church and ought to be so considered on earth, then they are most definitely so considered in heaven.

This is the role men have to play.



2.  That men of God personally DO judge others eternal salvation.

Quote from: Raven180 on March 08, 2014, 09:21:33 AMWe are going to judge angels, right? If we sit in judgment over angels of God (fallen, no doubt) and help in determining their eternal fate, why not mere humans, who are created lower than them?

QuoteChrist's friends know what the master is doing. If the Lord has cut someone off, He will do nothing except He reveal it to His servants the prophets.

I disagree. We know what God reveals to us.  It is not an unlimited access to men's hearts nor every aspect of God's will in every life simply because one is "Christ's friend."  Jesus did not reveal Judas' betrayal until the "end" of that situation. 

QuoteWe can know through the Word, fairly accurately, who is and who is not saved, or who is going to heaven and who is not.

No.  We may discern where they have come from and PERHAPS partially, by the Spirit, where they are at now and IF they stayed on that path, where it will take them.  But to claim to know someone's eternity, no. 

Eze 18:26-27  When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.  Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

He answers:

Jer 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

1Sa 16:7  ...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

verses to consider about eternal salvation, not just what is right/wrong in everyday life.

Jhn 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

1Co 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 7:16   For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Jas 5:19-20  Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1Co 4:5  Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Jas 2:13  For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Quote
Quote... but it is not in line with the overall book of Matthew, the overall message of the Gospels, the overall message of the NT nor the overall message of the Bible.

Please share your view of this, so I can understand what you mean.

Matthew, a Jew.  The backslidden chosen anointed people of God who had the Truth.  Here is God redeeming them AGAIN. Matthew emphasized Christ fulfilling scripture/ ie: to the Jews.  You also see his emphasis on Jesus talking of personal accountability when it came to the law. Take care of your heart first.  This book is not letters about church protocol at all as much as setting the Hebrew screwed up record straight.  In an era where Israel was once again in captivity, waiting on God, where many had become agnostic since Pompeii stormed the temple, walked right into the Holy of Holies w/o repercussions; there was this sense of God not really following through, not being the ultimate Ender of things.  This passage has nothing to do with men of God ex-communicating the rebellious to protect the congregation.   

Matthew, a publican, knowing full well the ways of such and the redemption available. 

Matthew, chapter 13. 8 parables about the kingdom of God/end times.  The process and time of fruition.  Judgement being reserved till the very end and by God

Tares: read up on tares.  They looked nearly identical to wheat while growing. Only at harvest time was it unmistakably obvious it was a weed/wheat.  This is not the world, it is in fact the church, especially since the parables are about the kingdom of heaven, of which non-believers have not even been born into.  Not until everything was pulled up, was there any cutting off or separation.  This is a very gracious and sobering chapter.

The Gospels: Israel thought they had salvation if they could just be perfect in the law.  But here, here is such great salvation from such tortuous plight!  A higher plane of thinking above the law because it is automatically fulfilled in walking with Him. That to strive forward, having such GRACE to grow, falling seven times but arising again toward GOD who walked among them, displaying the very essence of who HE is, forgiving 70x7, taking the beam out of our own eye.  The Gospels defined who and what God and Israel really is.  All under persecution from every side.  Congregations were home cell groups, outdoor gatherings, personal Bible studies, day to day being used of God wherever they went, not just "at church."

The rest of New Testament: While is extensive and deep can also be summed up in some things.

John 13:35  By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

Far more than "resisting the devil and he will flee" is about relationships, restoration, bearing one another's burdens, striving for holiness.  So while yes, as you have already listed, there is instruction on handling problem people, much more it was about personal holiness/relationship.  So the overall message is not that of kicking out the bad apples but being so saturated by God because of relationship. 

I find it is a perspective issue. Am I reading the Word through the blood of redemption, or the legalism of the law?

What is the result of each way to view something?  If I believe it is men of God that are the angels, judging men's eternal salvation, am I moved with more compassion or less?  But if I see the mercy of the process and the Holy Righteous Judgement of a patient God, am I slower to even think condemnation of another?  Am I moved to give them room to grow and remember my own frail state, or set them in a box?  I know the answer in MYself.  To give place for such judgment is also a place that sees little to no fruit of the Spirit, gifts of the Spirit or beattitudes. 27 things essential for a healthy saint and edifying church body.

The truth is, in theory, it may sound good, but in practice, it is a rare thing for a person to be an antagonistic backslider or reprobate and still go to church, and for God to inform a man of God not only of it, but to publicize it. 


That's my 2¢.  :)

Raven180

Quote from: Psalm_97 on March 13, 2014, 11:51:28 AM
Yes, to promote and maintain unity in the church body and avoid discord, strife, etc.  But nowhere does the Bible say anything about any human judging any other in regard to the person's salvation.

I am using the word "judge" in terms of discerning and determining. A person's salvation or lack thereof, with the Word, can easily be determined.

Have they obeyed the Gospel?

No? Not saved.

It goes on from there.

Have they obeyed the Gospel but are intentionally and habitually sinning, even after having plenty of time and space to repent?

Yes? Well, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. They are not saved (even though they once were).

These are the principles I am working with. The context from which I am coming, in regards to the few selections you have quoted.
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Melody

Quote from: Raven180 on March 14, 2014, 06:30:32 AM

I am using the word "judge" in terms of discerning and determining. A person's salvation or lack thereof, with the Word, can easily be determined.
......
Have they obeyed the Gospel but are intentionally and habitually sinning, even after having plenty of time and space to repent?

Depends on how slow they grow.  Actually discipling someone takes time.  I heard Vesta Mangun say, "Don't condemn me before you've given me a chance to be saved."  How much is a "chance?" 

I've watched some take years to look like they have it together.  I'd hate to have judged them as hell bound when they really were moving forward, just slowly.  I understand discernment of being able to tell, they really aren't into it all, but then I've seen that turn around with a little mentorship as well too. 

Really, sometimes I dislike the terminology "saved" in the context we use it.  We ARE saved in the sense that we are born again and persevering, but we haven't made it to heaven yet! 

So people in my radar persay, I use the word YET for.  They're not there YET.  But I'm not to heaven yet.  I'm not perfect yet.   See what I did there?   :P 

Raven180

QuoteI'm trying to understand you but I hear two different premises to the subject text based on IF men were the angels spoken of.

Hopefully I can clarify.

The final decision for heaven or hell, is with the Lord. End of story.

But the Lord requires certain things of His people, that when we obey those requirements, it ends up, by default, causing some to be lost, chiefly, because the people in question, were already well on their way, and what God then requires His people to do, seals the deal.

Maybe the difficulty is understanding how deeply salvational being apart of the covenanted community of the Lord is?

I am convinced by Scripture that to be removed from the community is to be removed from communion (i.e. the Body and Blood); to be removed from the church is to be ostracized from the covenant; to experience both is to be an outcast from the Lord and His Body. No salvation outside of the church.

Whenever this extreme level of discipline is required, it is of and from the Lord, but through people, He makes it happen. In this way, humans have a role to play.

We have free will. God won't make a person do anything. He leads and guides. But we are the one's who frequently must act, so that, as an extension of Christ Himself, we are the one's doing the very things God wills.

QuoteThe truth is, in theory, it may sound good, but in practice, it is a rare thing for a person to be an antagonistic backslider or reprobate and still go to church...

You would be surprised! I know we come from different places, contexts, and church backgrounds. All I can say is, my experience is totally different.

Quote...and for God to inform a man of God not only of it, but to publicize it.

Romans 16:17-18,

17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

This verse has no application if public notice is not given to the church of who is and is not "marked".

1 Timothy 5:20,

20. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

By rebuking before all, someone's sins are made public.

It's the same principle found here:

Philippians 3:17,

17. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Those of us who are good examples to the church must be publicly announced to the assembly, as well.
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Raven180

QuoteI disagree. We know what God reveals to us.  It is not an unlimited access to men's hearts nor every aspect of God's will in every life simply because one is "Christ's friend."

John 15:15,

15. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

It seems to me that whatever the man Christ Jesus learns from God, He shares with the Body.

If God will truly not do any thing unless He speaks to His servants, the prophets, how can it be that God does anything regarding the Body of Christ, and doesn't at least try to communicate it? Maybe we just aren't listening.

QuoteJesus did not reveal Judas' betrayal until the "end" of that situation.

John 6:70,

70. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Very early in the Lord's ministry, He was already telling the Apostles that one of them was fallen. Additionally, in a careful reading the prophetic Psalms, it was already announced to Israel that the Messiah would be betrayed by a friend and given over into the hands of His enemies (e.g. Psalm 41:9).

Granted, the exact identity wasn't perhaps easily known, but there were hints from the Scriptures, chiefly Psalm 109, what kind of man it would be who would betray the Lord, chiefly, that he was unmerciful and "persecuted the poor and needy" (Psalm 109:16). Judas did this more than once well before the Last Supper.

So, the handwriting was all over the wall, if the disciples would have had eyes to see it.
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Melody

ok, perhaps we are differing in the idea that if a person is ex-communicated from one local assembly they can/can't be restored at another. The local church is not all there is to The Church.  With all the different kinds of churches even within the Apostolic faith, I have seen one person/family not do well at all in one but go on to thrive in another.  So if a person WANTS to redemption, there should be another church willing to disciple them.

And, frankly, I see too many human flawed pastors rejecting people because of their own poor leadership skills and not the horrible rebelliousness of a congregant.

Raven180

Quote from: MellowYellow on March 14, 2014, 06:48:20 AM
Quote from: Raven180 on March 14, 2014, 06:30:32 AM

I am using the word "judge" in terms of discerning and determining. A person's salvation or lack thereof, with the Word, can easily be determined.
......
Have they obeyed the Gospel but are intentionally and habitually sinning, even after having plenty of time and space to repent?

Depends on how slow they grow.  Actually discipling someone takes time.  I heard Vesta Mangun say, "Don't condemn me before you've given me a chance to be saved."  How much is a "chance?" 

I've watched some take years to look like they have it together.  I'd hate to have judged them as hell bound when they really were moving forward, just slowly.  I understand discernment of being able to tell, they really aren't into it all, but then I've seen that turn around with a little mentorship as well too. 

Really, sometimes I dislike the terminology "saved" in the context we use it.  We ARE saved in the sense that we are born again and persevering, but we haven't made it to heaven yet! 

So people in my radar persay, I use the word YET for.  They're not there YET.  But I'm not to heaven yet.  I'm not perfect yet.   See what I did there?   :P

I am in complete agreement.

Every case is different. I know someone who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit nearly 14 years ago. For the first 8-10 years, he stumbled, fell, backslid, came back, walked for awhile, gave up, went back to sin, and was gone for months or even a year, and now, he's been faithful to the Lord for going on 5 years or so, and all is looking right as rain. He, like everyone, is not without his struggles, but he perseveres in a way he didn't before.

Conversely, I've seen people take a dive and never come back.

I can't say, apart from Sovereign Grace, what makes the difference, why God seems to be patient with some, and immediate with others.

But I can say that a filled with and led by the Spirit ministry in a local assembly will hear from God about the saints for whom they care. It comes with the calling. It has to.
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Melody

#16
Quote from: Raven180 on March 14, 2014, 06:59:07 AM

If God will truly not do any thing unless He speaks to His servants, the prophets, how can it be that God does anything regarding the Body of Christ, and doesn't at least try to communicate it? Maybe we just aren't listening.

Or maybe God isn't casting them off in the first place.

The same way not everyone has the tongues/interpretation, prophesy, at once.  If God does tell someone, what if it just isn't who we think it should be?  Discretion is of God. 

And I have a slight diverse background.  As a child I grew up in a organization plagued with diarrhea of the mouth. No tact, discretion, or class.  And much of the people are stunted.  Now I've seen the opposite and I see people be turned around without being condemned in the first place.  The Holy Ghost does wonders to fix or remove before drama occurs.


Hehehe, fun conversation. :)

Raven180

Quote from: MellowYellow on March 14, 2014, 07:03:10 AM
ok, perhaps we are differing in the idea that if a person is ex-communicated from one local assembly they can/can't be restored at another. The local church is not all there is to The Church.  With all the different kinds of churches even within the Apostolic faith, I have seen one person/family not do well at all in one but go on to thrive in another.  So if a person WANTS to redemption, there should be another church willing to disciple them.

The Corinthians assembly was a "local" church, and the man was ex-communicated not just from Corinth, but I daresay, the entire CHURCH, as far as Paul was concerned.

Yes, some people just don't fit or can't find what they need at one local assembly, but when they transfer, they thrive. I am not against that at all.

I am, perhaps, narrowly, only focusing on people who have and are committing ex-communicatable offenses. Nothing petty. Sins unto death, you might say.

QuoteAnd, frankly, I see too many human flawed pastors rejecting people because of their own poor leadership skills and not the horrible rebelliousness of a congregant.

Definitely. It's a structural problem with the Apostolic movement when one flawed man, almost an autocrat, can do what he wants to God's people.
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Raven180

Quote from: MellowYellow on March 14, 2014, 07:06:12 AM
Quote from: Raven180 on March 14, 2014, 06:59:07 AM

If God will truly not do any thing unless He speaks to His servants, the prophets, how can it be that God does anything regarding the Body of Christ, and doesn't at least try to communicate it? Maybe we just aren't listening.

The same way not everyone has the tongues/interpretation, prophesy, at once.  If God does tell someone, what if it just isn't who we think it should be? 


Hehehe, fun conversation. :)

Well, apparently, it's supposed to be prophets who get the revelation. Now, who is a prophet and who is not? Different question.
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Melody

That is another question.  :biglaugh: Those used in the gift of prophesy or the church governmental position of prophet? 

I can't help but think in a healthy congregation, the problem removes themself more times than not.  I've never witnessed anyone being "marked." But I've seen problematic people leave of their own accord, having no place for their shenanigans.

Raven180

#20
Maybe a real life story from my own church will help elucidate. I will be somewhat vague for ethical reasons.

About 8 years ago, the assistant pastor won a family to the Lord. The husband and wife were saved the same day, and little by little, in time, all five of their children were likewise saved.

About five years into their walk, the husband backslid. But not just. Multiple cases of adultery and other illegal activities were committed.

He went to jail (and he's going to be gone along time) and is on our state's registry of sex offenders. They divorced.

The family picked up the pieces, and God worked a lot out for them. The church was supportive of her plight and all was forgiven.

In time, the assistant pastor was voted in as senior pastor after the founding pastor resigned.

Two years into his pastorate, it was apparent that something still was just not right with the family. Two of the children were demonstrating strong homosexual tendencies. The second oldest was completely backslidden, too.

During this time, the lady in question told the pastor about a dream God had given her in which she was off in another room vaguely "occupied' while a demon was with her children, literally (albeit in the dream only) ripping them to pieces. In the dream she said she could hear the screaming, but she didn't go to them.

Some time after that, the associate pastor is praying and out of nowhere God says to him "I am going to judge ______". He tells the senior pastor. They both know something is really amiss, but are patient, waiting for God to reveal.

Then another elder in the church, who has no position or title apart from elder, has a dream that takes place in a very seedy, bizarre, and revolting hotel room. After he wakes up and prays about it, the Lord tells him the lady's name.

He shares the dream and the impression with the pastors. Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses, right? The woman testified against herself, along with two other people independently hearing from God about her.

The senior pastor starts putting the pieces together. He meets with the lady's oldest children. They break down sobbing. They say every couple of months, their mom leaves town and goes and ditches them. They know what's going on.

The senior pastor has a sit down with the woman. She can't hide. She confesses. She's been having an affair with a married man (her husband's brother, no less) who lives in another city and goes to a different Apostolic church in the district.

For over two years, it's been happening.

She prays, repents, seeks forgiveness and promises the sin is out of her life. The leadership takes her at her word, but warn her sternly, that if this sin persists, grave consequences will occur.

The next week, she doesn't come to church. She's with her children's uncle, meeting in the same hotel room they always meet at (they very one that the elder dreamed about).

She comes to church, pretending everything is fine; that nothing is amiss and that she has done nothing wrong. She is confronted by the senior pastor with the elder who had the dream.

She starts sobbing (but not out of remorse, but because she was caught). She is removed from the assembly. Her children, with her permission, are still allowed to attend.

After that, she's gone. Going to a new church now. Four of her five children are backslidden. One is a rage machine, the other younger three are homosexual, with one dating a transgender boy.

So for over three years, this habitual sinner and backslider, was attending church, praising the Lord, lying to everyone, smiling and participating in every way she could. The ministry was the wiser, but hadn't had any specifics, and so waited and waited. Mercy upon mercy was shown this woman. She would not repent. The pastor of the other church where the man she was having an affair with was called. I don't know the fall-out on that end.

Nothing stopped her. God warning her that the devil was going to murder her children wasn't enough. God speaking to different people in the assembly wasn't enough. Being warned that if she didn't cease her sin, she was going to be ex-communicated wasn't enough.

Nothing stopped her. Now, all but one of her children are in ruins. And she's still attending church, but somewhere else.

What's the point of me sharing?

The Scriptures commanded that our church's leadership act. God addressed the situation most vehemently. She was legitimately removed from the assembly.

Upon her removal, Scripturally speaking, on account of her sin, she was no longer saved, if not even before then.

So then, with the parable...

See how men, not spirit being angels, had to be the one's involved in separating, even placing upon her, under the Lord's orders, the final stamp of her condemnation?

Can she still be saved? I hope so. I'm not going to say it's over for anyone. But if God never grants her repentance, or if He is willing, but she doesn't want it, and she dies lost, although there is a time displacement between when the men of God did what they did and her final judgment, nonetheless, men were involved every step of the way.

She will, at that point, if such occurs, be cast into the lake of fire, nothing more than a tare who lodged with the wheat. And men of God, as messengers and servants of the Lord, had a part to play in it.

Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Lynx

Quote from: Raven180 on March 14, 2014, 06:50:31 AMI am convinced by Scripture that to be removed from the community is to be removed from communion (i.e. the Body and Blood); to be removed from the church is to be ostracized from the covenant; to experience both is to be an outcast from the Lord and His Body. No salvation outside of the church.
So if my church is torn apart by internal strife (which I have seen happen to far too many churches, usually when the pastor dies and different people in the church disagree about who should be the new pastor) and there is no other local church for me to attend... I'm lost because I don't have a church to go to?

I'm not saying that's what you said.  I'm saying that's what it LOOKED like you said.  I really, really hope you just phrased what you meant wrong. 

It has also happened that a person has been kicked out of a church because he believed the truth, while the church as a whole has strayed.  Is the person lost because he was kicked out, though he was right? 

Raven you seem to be putting a lot of effort into trying to prove that humans can judge someone as lost.  Why is it so important to you to believe the angels in your first post might be humans? 

Also, I'm surprised that you haven't brought Genesis 6:1-4 into the conversation yet.  Some believe the "sons of God" were angels that took wives of the "daughters of men."   ;)
"Do you sing at church?"
"Yes I sing at church, I sing at home, at work, in the car, at the supermarket, at Wal-Mart..."
:sing: :sing: :sing: :sing: :sing: :sing:

Melody

QuoteUpon her removal, Scripturally speaking, on account of her sin, she was no longer saved, if not even before then.

This. She was already backslidden.  Leaders taking care of the church did not add to that, they simply acted accordingly. 

If we break one area of the ten commandments,  we are guilty of all.  Before the long list of transgressions, it was already over at not loving God with all our hearts.. etc.  A person will have no defense but really, it matters not if one is doggy paddling in the ocean or a thousand feet below.  The line was at the first commandment.  Heaven is God's kingdom.  We don't go because we were good, we are welcomed with Him because we have a relationship with Him.

You admit the lady could still repent.  She both sinned and can repent without the church leaders.  They are there for the well being of the collective body, not to judge anyone's eternity.

The more we discuss, the more convinced I am. 

Thanks for the fun!



Raven180

#23
Quote from: Psalm_97 on March 14, 2014, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: Raven180 on March 14, 2014, 06:50:31 AMI am convinced by Scripture that to be removed from the community is to be removed from communion (i.e. the Body and Blood); to be removed from the church is to be ostracized from the covenant; to experience both is to be an outcast from the Lord and His Body. No salvation outside of the church.
So if my church is torn apart by internal strife (which I have seen happen to far too many churches, usually when the pastor dies and different people in the church disagree about who should be the new pastor) and there is no other local church for me to attend... I'm lost because I don't have a church to go to?

Please note the specificity of the comments at large. I am only referring to people who are LEGITIMATELY removed from the church. I am not meaning faithful people who, because of circumstances outside of their control, can't currently fellowship with other believers. Such a person or persons are still members of the Body of Christ.

QuoteI'm not saying that's what you said.  I'm saying that's what it LOOKED like you said.  I really, really hope you just phrased what you meant wrong.

I think the phrasing is correct, if taken within the larger context. Again, I am only speaking of the ex-communicated for correct Biblical reasons at the behest of the Holy Spirit. 

QuoteIt has also happened that a person has been kicked out of a church because he believed the truth, while the church as a whole has strayed.  Is the person lost because he was kicked out, though he was right?

Again, this is not a Spirit-led, legitimate ex-communication or removal, so it doesn't apply to what I'm talking about. 

QuoteRaven you seem to be putting a lot of effort into trying to prove that humans can judge someone as lost.  Why is it so important to you to believe the angels in your first post might be humans?

The effort, as mentioned, is to build the best case I can for the angels to be humans to see how well it stands up. What I'm actually looking for is to demolish the case that these angels in the parables are humans. So I'm "fighting" if you will, on the other side, to determine what can be known and understood.

Why I'm doing this is for---and I hope you can understand and respect this---personal reasons. Suffice it to say that understanding the angels in this parable may have a big impact upon my personal life and walk with God going forward.

QuoteAlso, I'm surprised that you haven't brought Genesis 6:1-4 into the conversation yet.  Some believe the "sons of God" were angels that took wives of the "daughters of men."   ;)

Understanding that passage is a challenge for anyone. Personally, I don't believe in the sons of God being angels.

I treat the subject here, if you're interested:

http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/the-nephilim/
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...

Raven180

#24
Quote from: MellowYellow on March 14, 2014, 02:01:24 PM
QuoteUpon her removal, Scripturally speaking, on account of her sin, she was no longer saved, if not even before then.

This. She was already backslidden.  Leaders taking care of the church did not add to that, they simply acted accordingly. 

If we break one area of the ten commandments,  we are guilty of all.  Before the long list of transgressions, it was already over at not loving God with all our hearts.. etc.  A person will have no defense but really, it matters not if one is doggy paddling in the ocean or a thousand feet below.  The line was at the first commandment.  Heaven is God's kingdom.  We don't go because we were good, we are welcomed with Him because we have a relationship with Him.

You admit the lady could still repent.  She both sinned and can repent without the church leaders.  They are there for the well being of the collective body, not to judge anyone's eternity.

The more we discuss, the more convinced I am. 

Thanks for the fun!

No doubt she was already backslidden. But I believe an official act by the Body, under the discretion and leading of the Holy Spirit, to ex-communicate one of its own determines and finalizes (if no further repentance occurs) the judgment to come.

Consider Simon Peter and Ananias and Sapphira.

The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet, right?

If Simon Peter had not have spoken, what are the chances Ananias and Sapphira would have lived through the encounter?

I contend there is a better than fair chance God would not have killed them without Simon Peter pronouncing sentence against them.

In this, Simon Peter, through the charismata of the Spirit, in effect, sealed their doom. Upon their death, God did the final judging, but Simon Peter, upon speaking, pretty much determined their fate.

Now, I heard one preacher (non-Apostolic) claim that he thought Ananias and Sapphira were stilled saved when the died. I don't think so. I think they died lost.

Do I know? No. Only God does. So, in this way, I am not "putting them into hell" or casting eternal judgment upon them myself. But a sentence and judgment was passed upon them when Simon Peter spoke (and really, it was already accomplished the moment they decided to lie to the Holy Spirit), that ultimately, if eternal life was taken away from them by the Lord, basically sent them to the Lake of Fire. In either case, Simon Peter played a role. He was the messenger (i.e. angel) of their demise.
Luke 12:24,

24. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them...