Apostolic Truth Questions

[Brother Dad]

I have a question and would really like to see what you folks think.  Concerning the Holy Ghost and Fire.  Do we get the Fire when we get the Holy Ghost or can you receive the Fire and later the Holy Ghost?

[Brother Dad]

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


I feel there are people who after repenting receive the fire of God and later the Holy Ghost.  I have seen them with a burning desire for Revival without having received the Holy Ghost.  I am not taking anything from the need for the Holy Ghost just pointing out what I have observed.

[Backseat Radio]

I've heard a very different interpretation of that passage based on the verses around the verse in question.  I've heard taught that the "and with fire" refers to those that will be punished with hell fire because they didn't bring forth good fruit or were the chaff.


Matthew 3:10-12
10  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I have a question and would really like to see what you folks think.  Concerning the Holy Ghost and Fire.  Do we get the Fire when we get the Holy Ghost or can you receive the Fire and later the Holy Ghost?

I think it could be both ways. The Holy Ghost is the Comfortor, Guide, Teacher who testifys and reveals Jesus. He is the Spirit of Truth, providing discernment to what is deceitful.

But the Fire, hmm. What's the purpose of fire? To burn things up. To cleanse and purify. Our God is a consuming fire. It could be that upon conversion, the Fire comes to purge the old man; the old nature. Kind of a funeral pyre. This fire - shut up in the marrow of the bones - would continually consume the "natural man's nature" found in the blood. As the new-creation begins to produce the nature of Christ, via the uncorruptable blood of the Lamb, the holy fire begins cleansing the soul and destroying the flesh. Well, as much as we kindle the flame and allow the process.

Could go toward explaining how many who have yet to receive the Holy Ghost, do experience a continued and visible new lifestyle. Could be how old desires are purged and placed with spiritual ones.

Good question.

[yosemite]

oh well! theres the answer, almost. what about acts 2:3?

[titushome]

Is "church" - as we practice it - as important as we tend to make it? 

Is it overrated, that is, are expectations too dependent upon what we feel and experience?

Is it possible, "church" can/has become an idol?

Can we make it without routine attendence?

Part of the problem here is that so many Christians view "church" as an event to be attended.  As an event to be attended, yes it can become an idol.

The truth, however, is that the Church is what we, together as believers, are.  The assembling of ourselves together is vital to the Church because it is only when we are assembled that Christ can express Himself through us as His Body.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Is "church" - as we practice it - as important as we tend to make it? 

Is it overrated, that is, are expectations too dependent upon what we feel and experience?

Is it possible, "church" can/has become an idol?

Can we make it without routine attendence?

Part of the problem here is that so many Christians view "church" as an event to be attended.  As an event to be attended, yes it can become an idol.

The truth, however, is that the Church is what we, together as believers, are.  The assembling of ourselves together is vital to the Church because it is only when we are assembled that Christ can express Himself through us as His Body.

But are we really assembled in our current method of "assembly"? How much of the Body is allowed or even knows how to assemble to anyone? Isn't it pretty much "an event to be attended"?

[onli-one-jehovi]

oh well! theres the answer, almost. what about acts 2:3?

This is pretty much an isolated event. As far as I recall, the tongues of flame symbolized the Lord lighting the coals of the altar for the new covenant. Whether or not any tongues of fire appear today is unknown. They might be invisible or just a rare phenomenon. Or, they could be the fulfillment of John's prophesy.

[titushome]

But are we really assembled in our current method of "assembly"?

In most cases when believers gather, they aren't "really assembled" - that is, they aren't assembled in a way in which Christ can express Himself fully through their assembly.

How much of the Body is allowed or even knows how to assemble to anyone?

Good question.  Probably not many.

Isn't it pretty much "an event to be attended"?

Yes, it is.  And it's saddening.

[yosemite]

I've heard a very different interpretation of that passage based on the verses around the verse in question.  I've heard taught that the "and with fire" refers to those that will be punished with hell fire because they didn't bring forth good fruit or were the chaff.


Matthew 3:10-12
10  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

could this not mean one's sins are purged and not nessesarily people as a plural? maybe the deeds and acts of a person were hewn down and purged.

I have a question and would really like to see what you folks think.  Concerning the Holy Ghost and Fire.  Do we get the Fire when we get the Holy Ghost or can you receive the Fire and later the Holy Ghost?

I think it could be both ways. The Holy Ghost is the Comfortor, Guide, Teacher who testifys and reveals Jesus. He is the Spirit of Truth, providing discernment to what is deceitful.

But the Fire, hmm. What's the purpose of fire? To burn things up. To cleanse and purify. Our God is a consuming fire. It could be that upon conversion, the Fire comes to purge the old man; the old nature. Kind of a funeral pyre. This fire - shut up in the marrow of the bones - would continually consume the "natural man's nature" found in the blood. As the new-creation begins to produce the nature of Christ, via the uncorruptable blood of the Lamb, the holy fire begins cleansing the soul and destroying the flesh. Well, as much as we kindle the flame and allow the process.

Could go toward explaining how many who have yet to receive the Holy Ghost, do experience a continued and visible new lifestyle. Could be how old desires are purged and placed with spiritual ones.

Good question.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I've heard a very different interpretation of that passage based on the verses around the verse in question.  I've heard taught that the "and with fire" refers to those that will be punished with hell fire because they didn't bring forth good fruit or were the chaff.


Matthew 3:10-12
10  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

could this not mean one's sins are purged and not nessesarily people as a plural? maybe the deeds and acts of a person were hewn down and purged.

I have a question and would really like to see what you folks think.  Concerning the Holy Ghost and Fire.  Do we get the Fire when we get the Holy Ghost or can you receive the Fire and later the Holy Ghost?

I think it could be both ways. The Holy Ghost is the Comfortor, Guide, Teacher who testifys and reveals Jesus. He is the Spirit of Truth, providing discernment to what is deceitful.

But the Fire, hmm. What's the purpose of fire? To burn things up. To cleanse and purify. Our God is a consuming fire. It could be that upon conversion, the Fire comes to purge the old man; the old nature. Kind of a funeral pyre. This fire - shut up in the marrow of the bones - would continually consume the "natural man's nature" found in the blood. As the new-creation begins to produce the nature of Christ, via the uncorruptable blood of the Lamb, the holy fire begins cleansing the soul and destroying the flesh. Well, as much as we kindle the flame and allow the process.

Could go toward explaining how many who have yet to receive the Holy Ghost, do experience a continued and visible new lifestyle. Could be how old desires are purged and placed with spiritual ones.

Good question.

I guess it could. Never considered that before.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Something else came to mind. Fire is also tribulation. Tribulation designed to bring the dross to the top. Perhaps John is declaring the persecution that comes with discipleship to Christ. Does scripture not say that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution?

Not talking about psuedo-persecution we testify about. The ones where we "defend" our denominational dogma or somebody cusses on purpose just to offend us. That's so small in comparison. Jesus said what happens to the Master happens to the Disciple. He also said to be His disciple required death by crucifixion. John told us we ultimately overcome by loving not our lives unto the death. Most of us haven't seen persecution to that degree..... yet.

So. Are we ready for the tribulation fire that will require many to physically die? Are we prepared to suffer the loss of all things? The things of comfort and security?  Are we wise enough to carry the extra oil beyond the aftermath of the fire? Do we see the fire coming upon the whole earth?

Fire = Tribulation. The time of Jacob's trouble. Jacob perished in the trial. It was Israel who emerged from the fire.

Oh Father, purge us with your fire that we too may manifest as a prince with God. Father, send the fire.

[doogie]

I would like further clarification on a couple of points below...

In most cases when believers gather, they aren't "really assembled" - that is, they aren't assembled in a way in which Christ can express Himself fully through their assembly.

Please elaborate on this point.  I am curious as to what you mean.  

How much of the Body is allowed or even knows how to assemble to anyone?

Good question.  Probably not many.

Please elaborate on this point.  I am curious as to what you mean.  

Isn't it pretty much "an event to be attended"?

Yes, it is.  And it's saddening.

Thanks!

[doogie]

In my previous post, I have asked for further clarification.  I ask this because when I read Hebrews 10:25, it seems pretty clear:

25  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Someone please help me understand - am I wrong for taking this at face value, for assuming it simply means that we should "get together" and exhort one another?  (also known as church, bible study, having starbucks while discussing the word, etc.)

[titushome]

In my previous post, I have asked for further clarification.  I ask this because when I read Hebrews 10:25, it seems pretty clear:

25  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Someone please help me understand - am I wrong for taking this at face value, for assuming it simply means that we should "get together" and exhort one another?  (also known as church, bible study, having starbucks while discussing the word, etc.)

No, you're not wrong; you're reading it exactly right.

The trouble is, for most Christians in a typical church meeting, there's no "exhorting one another" going on.  They praise God together, pray for one another's needs, listen to a preacher, perhaps pray for a while, perhaps fellowship for while, then go home.  But they don't exhort one another; there's usually no place in the order of the service given for them to do so.

So to elaborate on what I said earlier -

In most cases when believers gather, they aren't "really assembled" - that is, they aren't assembled in a way in which Christ can express Himself fully through their assembly.

- in a typical church meeting, Christ expresses Himself through just a handful of people, while the rest are recipients of that expression.  Also, from one meeting to the next, it's usually the same handful of people through whom Christ expresses Himself.  Thus, Christ is not fully expressed.

Paul of Tarsus knew what he was talking about when he likened the Church to a Body: "If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?"  But as it is in a typical church meeting today, only a few of the body parts are used.  Thus, I think we're not seeing Christ in the fullness of His glory; He's restricted from expressing Himself to us in all His fullness.

Am I making sense?

[Brother Dad]

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
KJV

Who was created on the sixth day and why does it say them.

[Brother Dad]

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
KJV

Who are the sons of God, and who are the daughters of men?

[Brother Dad]

Where did Cain get his wife?

these and other question like them are some we are ask on a regular basis.  How do you answer them?

[onli-one-jehovi]

I would like further clarification on a couple of points below...

In most cases when believers gather, they aren't "really assembled" - that is, they aren't assembled in a way in which Christ can express Himself fully through their assembly.

Please elaborate on this point.  I am curious as to what you mean.  

How much of the Body is allowed or even knows how to assemble to anyone?

Good question.  Probably not many.

Please elaborate on this point.  I am curious as to what you mean.  

Isn't it pretty much "an event to be attended"?

Yes, it is.  And it's saddening.

Thanks!

Titushome did a wonderful job of bringing this to light. I don't really think I can improve on that. Let me just add:

Since scripture tells us that we are each lively stones making up the Body of Christ, and God gave gifts to men for the edification and perfection of the Body; assembly is more about fitting ourselves together. It is supposed to be about every part being fitly joined. "My" gifts/abilities/revelations/etc are supposed to be assembled to "Your" gifts/abilities/revelations/etc. "I" am there to supply what "You" currently need. Under our current system, this is virtually impossible. God did not design this for one man – or an elite caste of men – to handle on their own. It takes the entire Body interacting in unity to bring this about.

That's why there are times when a couple of saints having coffee at Starbuck's, can see more accomplished in their life in 10 minutes, than 2 hrs at "church". Why? They assembled one another. Each provided the necessary materials needed at that time. It may have been nothing more than a praise report, or a scriptural insight, or a song repeating in the heart. The thing is – each member of the Body functioned properly.

Depending mainly on "church services" never does work. A pastor doesn't have the ability to provide for everyone. It takes the entire congregation working under the guidance of the Head {Christ}, thru the leading of the Holy Ghost. Otherwise, it becomes an event to be attended and many remain disassembled. We need to somehow change our methods of assembly to include full participation of all.

Hope that makes sense.

[doogie]

Ok, OOJ & Titushome -  I've read your posts.  Now, reconcile YOUR expounded belief systems with what Paul had to say in Acts 20:28-30

28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29  For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30  Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

To be frank, I dont buy either of your arguments about how "assembling" should be "conducted."  We can "exhort" one another in our conversations.  That doesnt mean that everyone in a particular assembly needs to get up and speak to the body.  Paul was very clear that the "Elders" were responsible for "Oversight" and "Feeding" of the "church of God."  He was also very clear in verse 30 that some would rise up from within the flock and try to pull away followers unto their own doctrines. 

Say you have a 11 month old baby girl - you wouldnt let some stranger feed her would you?  They have no idea how old she is, if she can chew meat, if she is allergic to certain foods, etc.  How is the church any different?  The "Elder" is in our lives to "feed" us as he feels directed by God.  He's also there to provide oversight and protection so that "grevious wolves" are not able to get in and spew their "life threatening" false doctrines to the Body of Christ.  Certainly we can "assemble" with others and edify one another, but that doesnt mean that every group of "so-called-christians" should be given voice in our lives.

I've been involved in "bible studies" where the importance of fundamental Apostolic Doctrines were questioned, and when I drove home thought to myself that it was a good thing a new convert from our church wasnt present.  Not because the Apostles Doctrine needs defending, but because questioning biblical doctrine from a skeptical point of view could lead to confusion, and plant satanic seeds of doubt in the new believers life.

You will also note that Jesus did the teaching until such time as he felt his disciples were ready to go out and do the works which he directed them to do.  The local church is no different.  The "Elder" must "Oversee" the doctrines that are being propogated in a body of believers to make sure they are aligned with scripture, and not the "musings" of a confused or delusional soul.  At such time as a "member" is deemed ready to speak to the Body of Christ, the "Elder" will make opportunity for them to do so.

[doogie]

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
KJV

Who was created on the sixth day and why does it say them.

Adam and Eve.  He called them "them" because they were two in number.   

[doogie]

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
KJV

Who are the sons of God, and who are the daughters of men?

Sons of God:  Angels (Possibly fallen?  Or in the process of falling?)

Daughters of men:  Human women

As you are probably aware, this is a topic of much debate with NO SCRIPTURAL PROOF to support any of the theories.  I just think mine is the easiest, since it is "plain-sliced scripture."

[Brother Dad]

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
KJV

Who are the sons of God, and who are the daughters of men?

Sons of God:  Angels (Possibly fallen?  Or in the process of falling?)

Daughters of men:  Human women

As you are probably aware, this is a topic of much debate with NO SCRIPTURAL PROOF to support any of the theories.  I just think mine is the easiest, since it is "plain-sliced scripture."

Yes My thinking on this (which is not a salvational issue) is that the sons of God are the descendent's of Adam, Well the daughters of men are the descendent's of Cain. 

[titushome]

Ok, OOJ & Titushome -  I've read your posts.  Now, reconcile YOUR expounded belief systems with what Paul had to say in Acts 20:28-30

28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29  For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30  Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

To be frank, I dont buy either of your arguments about how "assembling" should be "conducted."  We can "exhort" one another in our conversations.  That doesnt mean that everyone in a particular assembly needs to get up and speak to the body.  Paul was very clear that the "Elders" were responsible for "Oversight" and "Feeding" of the "church of God."  He was also very clear in verse 30 that some would rise up from within the flock and try to pull away followers unto their own doctrines. 

Consider also 1 Corinthians 14:23-33:

²³ Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? ²⁴ But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; ²⁵ the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

²⁶ What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. ²⁷ If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; ²⁸ but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. ²⁹ Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. ³⁰ But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. ³¹ For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; ³² and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; ³³ for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

According to Paul in this passage, it's a good thing for all to prophesy.  According to him, it's a normal thing when, in an assembly of believers, each has a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, an interpretation - as long as all these things are done for edification.  And according to him we "can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted" - provided that we keep our spirits subject to the Holy Spirit; that is, as long as we allow Him to guide and direct the meeting, that there would be peace and order, not confusion and disorder.

The role of elders, therefore, includes at least a couple of different things: one, to instruct the younger, the less knowledgeable, the less experienced, as Paul wrote in Acts 20; and two, I believe, to step in and restore order to the meeting whenever any of the participants begin to yield to their flesh instead of to the Spirit.

Say you have a 11 month old baby girl - you wouldnt let some stranger feed her would you?  They have no idea how old she is, if she can chew meat, if she is allergic to certain foods, etc.  How is the church any different?  The "Elder" is in our lives to "feed" us as he feels directed by God.  He's also there to provide oversight and protection so that "grevious wolves" are not able to get in and spew their "life threatening" false doctrines to the Body of Christ.  Certainly we can "assemble" with others and edify one another, but that doesnt mean that every group of "so-called-christians" should be given voice in our lives.

Of course I wouldn't let a stranger feed my daughter.  But that's a far cry from allowing members in good standing to contribute to the feeding of their fellow believers.  Saying that only pastors and elders are allowed to feed the flock is like saying that only my wife and I are allowed to feed our daughter.  We won't allow her grandparents, or her uncles, or any close friends to do it - regardless of the fact that all are completely trustworthy, and that they would ever feed her anything harmful is beyond question.

Rather, of course my wife and I allow others to feed her - sometimes under our supervision, if we feel that is necessary.  Likewise, under normal circumstances any mature saint in the church should be allowed to contribute as directed by the Spirit; also likewise, there may be times where the elders in a church may allow a certain person to speak, but only with a certain amount of caution and supervision, as that person may be lacking in maturity, and may yet need some correction.

I've been involved in "bible studies" where the importance of fundamental Apostolic Doctrines were questioned, and when I drove home thought to myself that it was a good thing a new convert from our church wasnt present.  Not because the Apostles Doctrine needs defending, but because questioning biblical doctrine from a skeptical point of view could lead to confusion, and plant satanic seeds of doubt in the new believers life.

I too have been involved in such Bible studies, and sometimes I've been the one doing the questioning of said "fundamental doctrines" - not because I wished to start an argument or stir up trouble, but because there were genuine questions in my mind which I wished to resolve, and to do so I turned to brothers and sister who I knew would correct me if I was headed down a wrong road.

Naturally, I would not have raised such issues had an unbeliever, seeker or new convert been present.

You will also note that Jesus did the teaching until such time as he felt his disciples were ready to go out and do the works which he directed them to do.  The local church is no different.  The "Elder" must "Oversee" the doctrines that are being propogated in a body of believers to make sure they are aligned with scripture, and not the "musings" of a confused or delusional soul.  At such time as a "member" is deemed ready to speak to the Body of Christ, the "Elder" will make opportunity for them to do so.

But would it not be better if such decisions were not left to be determined by one pastor/elder, but if there were may mature saints in the church who could so contribute to the growth and continuing maturity of the younger saints?  When all such decisions rest in the hands of one man, what happens when that one man is wrong?  When there is no one to challenge his error?

[onli-one-jehovi]

When all such decisions rest in the hands of one man, what happens when that one man is wrong?  When there is no one to challenge his error?

Good question. I've heard it said many, many times: "Don't worry about me {the pastor/minister}. If I'm wrong , GOD will straighten me out"

Why is it that GOD - via the Holy Ghost - is perfectly capable and expected to "straighten out" the pastor, but entirely incapable of "straightening out" Joe Saint?

Aren't we all the Body and Christ the Head? That's like my head saying it will only heal a cut on my right hand. Any other cuts will have to be sewed up by my right hand.

Never have understood that.