Apostolic Truth Questions

[titushome]

Thus, the last 1700 yrs of Christian baptism - though not always quoting "in the name of Jesus" - has still been obedient to scripture,for the implication has always been toward Jesus; in recognition of His death, burial, and resurrection cleansing of sin. Matthew was obeyed in full faith toward God. His word is just as good as Peter's. Yes, Matthew was there with Peter and did not say anything. Yes, the evidence shows baptism was done in the name of the Lord. We know that. We know that because we've been taught that. We know that because we studied it out for ourselves.

But the bulk of Christiandom hasn't been taught that. The bulk of Christiandom hasn't studied it out for themselves. The bulk of Christiandom - including Apostolics - blindly take the word of the pulpit regarding spiritual meaning/interpretation. And God is honoring the cleansing of the cross and their faith in Him to fill with the Holy Ghost. God is birthing them into the Body and working as hard as He can to lead and guide to all truth.

But if baptism in Jesus' name (as it is commonly understood) is required by God, no exceptions, will not those who blindly accept the word of another man, and failed to search the Scriptures for themselves, be held accountable by God for their failure to obey - i.e., their disobedience?  And does not disobedience ultimately have its root in a lack of faith/belief?

It all comes back around to what God requires of a man who wishes to enter into His Life, and subsequently live in His Life.  What is required for one to enter?  And what is required for one to continue therein?

[OGIA]

I do not believe you comprehend what I'm talking about regarding the bulk of christianity. My friend John also appears unable to get out of the box of apostolic doctrinal viewpoint and see anything thing else. But that's alright. Maybe someday.

If getting "out of the box" (the phrase is so overused it about gags me!) means believing people are a part of the Body when they are not, then I'll gladly stay where I am and take my chances, just like you are doing letting people in the Body who IMO are not.  Either one of us or both of us is wrong.  

The majority who are baptized in titles do not understand what baptism is for, so the ritual (which is what it is to the vast majority of what you call Christendom [I disagree]) simply gets them wet. 

Not only is the commandment for it to be done "in the name of Jesus Christ" but there must be the recognition that it is done for the remission of sin.  So, not understanding the necessity of uttering the name and not knowing the purpose God gave for water baptism in His name results in a person getting wet.

And, that's why it's not a work.  It's an act of faith.  But, if the person has zero clue about why they are being baptized (regardless of "why" they don't know), then the act is worthless.....as it is in the vast majority of instances.    

I can't believe you said this. My God. And you think I'm confused?

Well, uh, yeah....I do think you are confused.  I've watched you get that way more and more over the years.  However, what is it I said that prompted you to call on God and think me confused?   :grin:

[Brother Dad]

The confusion comes in when we try to put people into heaven or into the body.  The Body is Christ and He is the Head of it.  Therefore those baptized in His name are His people called by His name.  Preach the Word and stop trying to make people think they are saved with anything less than Jesus name.  Why would we let our friends continue in the false doctrine unknowingly when we can give them the Truth.  Why should we even be concerned with "well there may be another way"?

Should our goal not be to show them the one and true Living God?

[onli-one-jehovi]

The majority who are baptized in titles do not understand what baptism is for, so the ritual (which is what it is to the vast majority of what you call Christendom [I disagree]) simply gets them wet. 

Not only is the commandment for it to be done "in the name of Jesus Christ" but there must be the recognition that it is done for the remission of sin.  So, not understanding the necessity of uttering the name and not knowing the purpose God gave for water baptism in His name results in a person getting wet.

And, that's why it's not a work.  It's an act of faith.  But, if the person has zero clue about why they are being baptized (regardless of "why" they don't know), then the act is worthless.....as it is in the vast majority of instances.    

I can't believe you said this. My God. And you think I'm confused?

Well, uh, yeah....I do think you are confused.  I've watched you get that way more and more over the years. 

And I've seen you get more and more religious over the years.



However, what is it I said that prompted you to call on God and think me confused?   :grin:

The majority who are baptized in titles do not understand what baptism is for, so the ritual (which is what it is to the vast majority of what you call Christendom [I disagree]) simply gets them wet. 

Not only is the commandment for it to be done "in the name of Jesus Christ" but there must be the recognition that it is done for the remission of sin.  So, not understanding the necessity of uttering the name and not knowing the purpose God gave for water baptism in His name results in a person getting wet.

And, that's why it's not a work.  It's an act of faith.  But, if the person has zero clue about why they are being baptized (regardless of "why" they don't know), then the act is worthless.....as it is in the vast majority of instances.

There is nothing left to say. You don't even understand what you said. I shake my head in amazement.

If this is the mindset of the majority here - I hope it's not - ya'll are best left alone.

I'm done with this topic.

[titushome]

The confusion comes in when we try to put people into heaven or into the body.

But that's exactly what people - including many in this thread - are doing when they say things like, "Unless you're baptized in Jesus' name you're not part of the body, and you're not going to Heaven."  Such statements declare who is and who is not in Christ.  If this is something we should not be doing, then why are such statements being made?

Why should we even be concerned with "well there may be another way"?

My question is not whether there is "another way"; there is only one way.  My question is whether the way we claim is the one way is in fact correct.  My question is whether we really understand what it means to be baptized in Jesus' name is correct.

Should our goal not be to show them the one and true Living God?

That is indeed our goal. 

[Backseat Radio]

Why should we even be concerned with "well there may be another way"?

My question is not whether there is "another way"; there is only one way.  My question is whether the way we claim is the one way is in fact correct.  My question is whether we really understand what it means to be baptized in Jesus' name is correct.

You hit a real good point there Titushome.   Just about every church comming and going is so sure that the way they teach is correct.   Yet when an honest concern is brought up about a teaching or practice of that church very few are willing to go into the scripture with an open heart and see if the person bringing up the question has a valid point.  Most of the time the question is just blown off by leaders and members of the church and the person that brought the question up is treated with the attitude of "they're just looking for a way to rebel".

Are we so proud that we won't even consider the possibility that something we believe, teach, or practice could be incorrect?

[OGIA]

And I've seen you get more and more religious over the years.

I'm sorry, but can you define "religious" for me?  You see, I don't understand what I say a lot of times, so I certainly, most likely can't comprehend your terminology, either.

Besides, you asked for my opinion.  I didn't ask for yours.  

If this is the mindset of the majority here - I hope it's not - ya'll are best left alone.

I don't claim to speak for the majority here.  But, that sheds light on the attitude you have towards some here.  You seem to have all of the sudden (relatively) gotten some incredible revelation about who God allows to be His children, and, thus, a part of His Body; while we children are still striving to be illuminated with what God's given you.  That is either true or you've actually ventured off into false doctrine.  I see this more and more in Pentecost and it reminds me of "certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers" who hung out on the Areopagus more than the Bereans Paul had just left.  Everyone in Pentecost is looking for "something new" and then claiming "revelation".  I think I'll stick my stick in the ground next to men whose fruit has already been evidenced.  

There is nothing left to say. You don't even understand what you said. I shake my head in amazement.

Thanks for letting me know I didn't understand what I said.      My guess is you don't understand it and/or agree with it and are just choosing to place the burden on me...the one who typed it.

I'm done with this topic.

Your call.  No skin off my back.   



PS: No anger was vented in the posting of this response.  

[OGIA]

My question is not whether there is "another way"; there is only one way.  My question is whether the way we claim is the one way is in fact correct.  My question is whether we really understand what it means to be baptized in Jesus' name is correct.

Yes, I absolutely believe that this "one way" of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is THE ONLY WAY to be baptized.  By that I mean it is not only the proper method, but more importantly, it is proper because it is the one the Lord Himself demands.

Do I really understand what it means to be baptized in Jesus' name?  I can see that it means that it was an act of obedience, that it was an act done to someone, that the one doing the baptizing invoked the name "Jesus Christ" over the one being baptized, that it was to be done by immersion in water and that it was being done for the remission of sin.

What else might be missing?  Seriously.  I'm not being sarcastic.  What else in scripture might we be missing?

[Brother Dad]

If someone is unsure of Jesus name baptism as the right way then they are confused and need to be established in the truth.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

[Brother Dad]

We better know the truth and stand on it.  We must be establish in the truth.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

[Brother Dad]

If you are wondering whether what you have is truth or not then you are not free.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

[titushome]

Do I really understand what it means to be baptized in Jesus' name?  I can see that it means that it was an act of obedience, that it was an act done to someone, that the one doing the baptizing invoked the name "Jesus Christ" over the one being baptized, that it was to be done by immersion in water and that it was being done for the remission of sin.

What else might be missing?  Seriously.  I'm not being sarcastic.  What else in scripture might we be missing?

My question hinges on our understanding of the phrase "in Jesus' name."  What was the meaning and  significance of that phrase to the men who penned the books of the New Testament?

As I wrote earlier in this thread, it seems to have little or nothing to do with actually saying the words "in Jesus' name."  Rather, it has to do with acting in Jesus' stead, acting as His representatives, acting with His authority.  After all, we are also encouraged to do everything in Jesus' name (Col. 3:17) - yet we don't, of course, say the words "in Jesus' name" every time we do something.  That would be silly.

That's not to say that we shouldn't say those words, or that those words are not important.  We have plenty of Bible documentation of the apostles commanding people to be healed, and speaking those words.  But the power is not in the spoken words themselves, as though they were a magical incantation.  The power is in the Lord in whose will and with whose authority we are acting.

[titushome]

If you are wondering whether what you have is truth or not then you are not free.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

No.

If you do not know the truth, THEN you are not free.

I know the Truth; I know Him personally; He has set me free.

There's nothing in Jesus' statement about wondering.  My purpose in wondering is to know truth more perfectly, to perfect my understanding.

[Brother Dad]

My question hinges on our understanding of the phrase "in Jesus' name."  What was the meaning and  significance of that phrase to the men who penned the books of the New Testament?

As I wrote earlier in this thread, it seems to have little or nothing to do with actually saying the words "in Jesus' name."  Rather, it has to do with acting in Jesus' stead, acting as His representatives, acting with His authority.  After all, we are also encouraged to do everything in Jesus' name (Col. 3:17) - yet we don't, of course, say the words "in Jesus' name" every time we do something.  That would be silly.

That's not to say that we shouldn't say those words, or that those words are not important.  We have plenty of Bible documentation of the apostles commanding people to be healed, and speaking those words.  But the power is not in the spoken words themselves, as though they were a magical incantation.  The power is in the Lord in whose will and with whose authority we are acting.

I understand what you are asking.  In Paul's testimony he says, he was told to be baptized calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[Brother Dad]

It is not that we should judge, but we must teach one truth.  There is only one door to heaven and we must preach that. 

John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

We must not folks feel they may be another way.  Just preach and teach the Word and people will accept Bible.

[Brother Dad]

To try and scare someone into Jesus Name baptism by telling them they are lost will only put them on the defensive.  People need to hear the Word of God.  It is by the Word they will be saved.

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

We must sound the trumpet of Truth to this world we live in.  Does not matter who they are or where they come from it is the same for everyone.

[Brother Dad]

2 Tim 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,

Just because someone fails to believe it will not change the Word of God. 

[OGIA]

I guess some people think I post stuff just to argue.  Sometimes, yes.     But, the post I made below that seems to have put onli in a tailspin is from my heart.  Comments?

The majority who are baptized in titles do not understand what baptism is for, so the ritual (which is what it is to the vast majority of what you call Christendom [I disagree]) simply gets them wet. 

Not only is the commandment for it to be done "in the name of Jesus Christ" but there must be the recognition that it is done for the remission of sin.  So, not understanding the necessity of uttering the name and not knowing the purpose God gave for water baptism in His name results in a person getting wet.

And, that's why it's not a work.  It's an act of faith.  But, if the person has zero clue about why they are being baptized (regardless of "why" they don't know), then the act is worthless.....as it is in the vast majority of instances.   

[Brother Dad]

I guess some people think I post stuff just to argue.  Sometimes, yes.     But, the post I made below that seems to have put onli in a tailspin is from my heart.  Comments?

The majority who are baptized in titles do not understand what baptism is for, so the ritual (which is what it is to the vast majority of what you call Christendom [I disagree]) simply gets them wet. 

Not only is the commandment for it to be done "in the name of Jesus Christ" but there must be the recognition that it is done for the remission of sin.  So, not understanding the necessity of uttering the name and not knowing the purpose God gave for water baptism in His name results in a person getting wet.

And, that's why it's not a work.  It's an act of faith.  But, if the person has zero clue about why they are being baptized (regardless of "why" they don't know), then the act is worthless.....as it is in the vast majority of instances.   

I would agree except for the part about people baptized in titles.  I feel whether, and I am sure you mean, either way if people don't understand what they are doing they are just getting wet.  I know I have seen several times where someone stays after a person until they get baptized so they will leave them along.  Of course all they really did was get wet. 

I have always wanted to teach a person a Bible Study and show them the Scriptures, after they begin to understand why and after they have truly repented then I will baptize them in the name of Jesus Christ.  There are too many people trying to keep score as to how many they can get in the water in a years time.  They are more concerned about the numbers than they are the souls.

[titushome]

I see only one biblical prerequisite for baptism: belief on Jesus Christ.

³⁸ Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ³⁹ "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." ⁴⁰ And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" ⁴¹ So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

⁵ Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them. ⁶ The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing. ⁷ For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed. ⁸ So there was much rejoicing in that city.... ¹² But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

This next one is especially relevant to this conversation:

²⁶ But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, "Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza." (This is a desert road.) ²⁷ So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, ²⁸ and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. ²⁹ Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot." ³⁰ Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" ³¹ And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. ³² Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: "HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. ³³ "IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION ? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH." ³⁴ The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?" ³⁵ Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. ³⁶ As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" ³⁷ And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." ³⁸ And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

⁴⁴ While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. ⁴⁵ All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. ⁴⁶ For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, ⁴⁷ "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" ⁴⁸ And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Peter later spoke these words concerning this event:

¹⁷ "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

¹³ And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled. ¹⁴ A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. ¹⁵ And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

²⁷ When the jailer awoke and saw the prison doors opened, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. ²⁸ But Paul cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Do not harm yourself, for we are all here!" ²⁹ And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, ³⁰ and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" ³¹ They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." ³² And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. ³³ And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

¹ It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. ² He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." ³ And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." ⁴ Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." ⁵ When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Paul, speaking of his conversion experience, spoke these words:

¹⁴ "And he said, `The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth. <sup>15</sup> `For you will be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard. ¹⁶ `Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

In each example, we see essentially the same sequence of events: the good news of Jesus as the Christ is shared; those who hear the Word believe it; those who believe are baptized.  In other words, the only thing, biblically speaking, one is required to "understand" prior to one's baptism is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

There is not a single statement in all of Acts or in any of the apostles' letters to suggest that a new believer must understand what baptism is for as a prerequisite to baptism.  There is nothing to suggest that if they "don't understand what they are doing they are just getting wet."  It's just not there.

[apsurf]

sounding the Horn of truth....
Do you think this guy can do the job? 



Okay, I know it's offtopic...had to put a little humor in here!!!   

[Brother Dad]

sounding the Horn of truth....
Do you think this guy can do the job? 



Okay, I know it's offtopic...had to put a little humor in here!!!   

I like it very cute.

[OGIA]

In each example, we see essentially the same sequence of events: the good news of Jesus as the Christ is shared; those who hear the Word believe it; those who believe are baptized.  In other words, the only thing, biblically speaking, one is required to "understand" prior to one's baptism is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

Based on what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, I believe that every account of someone being baptized included that they were about to be baptized "for the remission of sins".  I believe that is what you mean by the highlighted phrases above.

[titushome]

Based on what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, I believe that every account of someone being baptized included that they were about to be baptized "for the remission of sins".  I believe that is what you mean by the highlighted phrases above.

You're reading into what I wrote - and I believe you're also reading into what the Bible says - something that's not there.  Jesus' apostles went out preaching the good news that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ, the long-awaited Messiah, the Son of God.  All who accepted this news, and believed that Jesus is who He and His disciples claimed He is, were baptized.  By their baptism they were baptized into Christ, inducted into His body.  Whether they fully understood the immense significance of this is debatable, and at any rate irrelevant; there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that one's understanding of the significance of baptism has any impact whatsoever on the effectiveness of the baptism.

[OGIA]

Based on what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, I believe that every account of someone being baptized included that they were about to be baptized "for the remission of sins".  I believe that is what you mean by the highlighted phrases above.

You're reading into what I wrote - and I believe you're also reading into what the Bible says - something that's not there.  Jesus' apostles went out preaching the good news that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ, the long-awaited Messiah, the Son of God.  All who accepted this news, and believed that Jesus is who He and His disciples claimed He is, were baptized.  By their baptism they were baptized into Christ, inducted into His body.  Whether they fully understood the immense significance of this is debatable, and at any rate irrelevant; there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that one's understanding of the significance of baptism has any impact whatsoever on the effectiveness of the baptism.

I believe inherent in the preaching of "the good news that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ, the long-awaited Messiah, the Son of God" is  the same message Peter preached on the day of Pentecost.  I believe a true response to the Gospel is the question "what must I do?".  I believe the Apostles, as we should, always responded with Acts 2:38.  No, I don't believe they went into a detailed exegesis on baptism, but I absolutely do not believe the Apostles baptized anyone without first telling them why they were being baptized and then knowing that the person had received understanding of that. 

Call it reading into scripture if you want, but I don't believe the Apostles baptized people who didn't have a clue why they were being baptized, and I don't think anyone today should be baptized without first acknowledging that.   :grin: