Apostolic Truth Questions

[Brother Dad]

Isa 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Not we are the Lord, But I know others will still try to find some way around truth.  If we compromise souls will be lost.  There is but one way to be saved.  All others is false.

[Brother Dad]

I was wondering why Paul such a busy man that He was would waste time re-baptizing folks in Jesus name since as some say it is not necessary.

If God reveals to someone His perfect will {Romans 12 - good/acceptable/perfect} regarding baptism in the name of Jesus - then it becomes necessary for that person. It does not mean that persons sins were not remitted prior. Just as God reveals to someone His perfect will regarding forgiveness. Forgiveness then becomes necessary for that person.

The process of maturity in Christ is time consuming. Maturity/perfection does not happen instantaneously. Baptism in Jesus name will eventually come to every Christian who continues to seek Him and walk in His righteousness. It is the perfect will of God, which we all necessarily strive for.

You can't force anything upon a child of God. It must come in Time {whether by the HG or the ministry}. It would be like holding a third-grade student accountable for twelfth-grade studies. They haven't been taught. Hasn't been revealed to them, no matter how necessary it might be for graduation.

We need to quit looking at the Holy Ghost as a dunce. God is more than wise enough, and capable enough to know when His children need information. He's also wise enough to know how to do it. Most of the time, the church system {corporately} is the last place He counts on. That track record is questionable. One-on-one, friend-to-friend, is the best route. Even forums such as this.

One word Hogwash

[Raven180]

If God reveals to someone His perfect will {Romans 12 - good/acceptable/perfect} regarding baptism in the name of Jesus - then it becomes necessary for that person.

Is this Biblical? Are people, Christian or otherwise, only accountable to God if, when and only if/when God reveals to them His commandments? Are they off-the hook, if you will, i.e. not required by God to obey His Word, if God has not personally revealed Biblical Truth to them? I see no Scriptural support or evidence for this.

In fact, I see the opposite.

Leviticus 5:17,

17. And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

The essential component of this verse is: ignorance is not an excuse. The "It's not fair, God. I never knew.You never told me." plea at the time of Judgment will not suffice.

Romans 1:20 reads that from the very days of creation, God, through the invisible things of this world (atoms? molecules? etc?) gave revelation and understanding of His eternal power and Deity to the things (i.e. humanity) that are made by Him, SO THAT WE ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

There is no Judgment Day excuse for a so-called lack of divine revelation. All will stand before the Judgment Seat and give an account. Those that have been born again shall take part in the first resurrection and the second death shall have no power over them. The rest shall be judged from out of the Books, and when their names are not found in the Book of Life, they shall all be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:6, 11-15).

Secondly, how many unbaptized in the name of Jesus Christ people are out there that have read the Book of Acts and have not obeyed? Did not God reveal to them, through His Word, how they ought to be baptized if they confess belief and faith in Jesus? How much more must God do through some kind of special, additional revelation?

If God is the Lord, and we love and obey Him as such, does He need to tell us more than once? Is not the Word of God sufficient? Especially for those who have already received the Holy Ghost. They have inside of them the Menorah (Spirit) that casts light on the Bread (Word), and they have, through God's Spirit, the ability to understand the deep things of God, being spiritually discernable (1 Corinthians 2:13-15). So why do they not receive revelation from God regarding Jesus Name Baptism? Is God withholding revelation from them? Or are they struggling with obedience/tradition/doctrines of men?

When people truly repent, they will obey. If we have to be told more than once from God, or continually, it is sin (James 4:17) and it requires repentance. So then, the question is not one of revelation. Rather, it is a question of repentance and obedience to the Word and Commandments of God.

(continued...)

[Raven180]

The process of maturity in Christ is time consuming. Maturity/perfection does not happen instantaneously.

Agreed.

Baptism in Jesus name will eventually come to every Christian who continues to seek Him and walk in His righteousness.

This is not true. There is no absolute guaranty this will come to pass. To state otherwise is to state that all people that died professing belief in Jesus Christ, but where never baptized in His Name, either

A) did not continue to seek Him and attempt to walk in His righteousness, making their faith void and of none effect, thus nullifying your point...

or

B) they never came to the "revelation" of Jesus Name Baptism, thus making, according to your view, God very suspect on when and how He chooses to reveal His perfect will, since He would have had to have allowed those that say they believe in Him but were never baptized in Jesus Name to die before they fulfilled His perfect will for their lives.

And since it's not His will that any perish, but rather that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) and salvation and truth (1 Timothy 2:4), we have a contradiction in what you are stating. Consider, the Holy Spirit of Truth will lead and guide all believers into all truth. You've stated that water baptism by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ is Biblical Truth, having yourself experienced it, so to say that those who died never being baptized that way suggests that the Holy Ghost did not lead them into all truth before they died, thus contradicting God's will that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. Why would God contradict His own will, allowing these people to perish outside of Jesus Name Baptism Truth, even though they are filled with His Spirit and He promised to lead them into all Truth? Is God a liar?

Or did these people, at some point in their life on earth, reject Jesus Name Baptism as an unnecessary, non-salvational, marginal nit-pick? I've already proven that people who were filled with the Holy Ghost can be unsaved at the time of their Judgment because they didn't "do the will of the Father in Heaven". Is it not God's will for all people everywhere to be baptized in Jesus Name? So if they have not been so baptized, have they not performed the will of the Father? No they've not. Hence why they will be cast out of God's sight at their Judgment simply because, among other possible things, they didn't get baptized in Jesus Name.

My answer about all of this is: God is not at fault.

(continued...)

[Raven180]

It is the perfect will of God, which we all necessarily strive for.

Exactly.

So then, should we assume that if we do not perform the "perfect will of God", there is some form of a second option that God will accept regarding salvation and eternity? Because if that is so, then no one will have to seek and strive for the Perfect Will, knowing they will make it HOME on a technicality we might dare to call God's Plan B for disobedient, lazy, wannabe believers/pretenders to the Throne.

The process of maturity in Christ is time consuming. Maturity/perfection does not happen instantaneously. Baptism in Jesus name...

Baptism in Jesus Name is not at the mature, "12th grade level". Scripture calls the doctrine of baptisms the principles of the doctrine of Christ, i.e. the very foundation of Christian belief, along with the other five, they being repentance from dead works, faith toward God, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:1-3). In fact, by following the context of Hebrews 5:12, it is correctly understood that these foundational beliefs (including the doctrine of baptisms: Water and Spirit a la John 3:3,5) are the milk of the Word.

See the context in full:

Hebrews 5:12-14 and 6:1,

12. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again the principles of the oracles of God [i.e. the revelations of God's will]; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use [i.e. those who have obeyed the Word, rightly dividing it as they teach] have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1. THEREFORE leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ [i.e. the elementary teachings of Jesus, NIV], let us go unto perfection [i.e. maturity in the Greek]... (Inserts and emphasis mine.)

The Contemporary English Version reads this way:

1. We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why ought to have faith in God. AND WE SHOULDN'T NEED TO KEEP TEACHING ABOUT BAPTISMS...

Baptism in Jesus Name is not a mature, far-future revelation for professing believers sometime down the road after they've professed faith in Christ for years. It is an elementary, basic principle. It is milk.

To continuously have to keep teaching and proving it over and over again to those that should already know it, understand it, and have obeyed it, is a sign of immaturity, i.e. a lack of perfection in the believer.

The trinitarian professer in Christ or any other professer that has not been baptized in Jesus Name is not the immature, imperfect one. They aren't even ready for milk simply because they haven't even been born again/from above. Maybe, maybe, we could get away with saying that they are in some kind of womb of belief, but they have not been born into God's kindgom until water baptism in Jesus Name. So, they aren't the immature ones.

We are. Endlessly filling up pages and pages on a message board going round and round about the princples of the doctrine of Christ, attempting to trump one another, disprove one another, thinking that Scripture agress with us when we're the ones that need to be agreeing with Scripture. Brethren, these things ought not to be.

There is only ONE BAPTISM. This ONE BAPTISM is by immersion in the only name under heaven given amongst men by with we must be saved: the name of Jesus Christ. To argue and contend against that is either a sign of someone not born again or someone still drinking milk when they should be eating meat.

God bless you all,

Aaron

PS.

...the church system {corporately} is the last place He counts on...

Except when it comes to preaching, teaching, ministering, laying on of hands, healing the sick, praying for the lost, etc.

Where two or more are gathered, Jesus is there. That's the corporate church. It doesn't have to be 100+ people in a chosen location to be the {corporate} church. Just two or three. And God almost always completely relies upon us, the Church, in whatever numbers we be, whether 12 or 120, to do His Work and Will. Jesus is the Head, we are His Body. He operates in and through us, not independently of His people, else how are we His Beloved Kingdom of Priests if He comes to us last and counts on us least to accomplish His desires in this lost world?

[Brother Dad]

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Some people hate sound doctrine and want to leave it open for everyone.

[Brother Dad]

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

God don't care what compriser think.  Just Jesus Name truth.  Man's ways are not God's  God is One and His way Is One

[Brother Dad]

Ex 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

God has always had but One Law for all people of the time.  God is not double minded like men can be.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

It is one way or the other can not be both ways. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

It's been a busy time. Sorry to take so long to get back with you. I'll try to post as quickly as I can. 

He never said "You must believe there's only one God". Never.

Really?  Is not the first commandment such a statement to them?  Didn't He quote it when sincerely asked?

Glad you asked that. I came across this little seen nugget {well, I'd never seen it before} a few weeks ago. Let's see what the Bible says.

But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (Mt 22:34-38)

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.  (Mk 12:28-30)

Look again at the question: Which is the first commandment in the law?

In the law, it was necessary to keep the Jews in focus and attempt to prevent following after the gods of the gentiles. This was reiterated over and over and over within their mind, not always getting to their heart. In fact, this repetition engraved truth upon their minds, but left the heart far from God. In Luke 10, a man came to Jesus and asked how to achieve eternal life. Jesus asked him: What is written in the law? How readest thou? {how do you understand it?} He answered: Love the Lord thy God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Boom! Law #1 & #2 rattled off without a miss. Jesus replied: That's right. Do this and live. He nailed that one.

But, the man seeking to justify himself, said unto Jesus: Excuse me Lord; who exactly is my neighbor? Uh-oh. He still didn't get it. The answer was in his head, but not his heart. Jesus came to cleanse the heart and write God's laws upon His new creation. The HG is the scribe who writes the truth upon the heart. It is out of the heart that the mouth speaks. It is out of the heart that we believe unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. A heart of belief brings right-standing-with-God, while a heart of unbelief brings error and damnation.

That's a lot of the problem with the Church. The Church has it in their head and can give a doctrinal text-book answer to any question. Trouble is, the Holy Ghost in their heart keeps contradicting some answers. It is not by accident, the Bible commands us to put on the mind of Christ. It is not by accident that He is the head of the Body. When we lose our heads/minds and put on His; well, the Holy Ghost will bring the righteous head into alignment with the righteous heart. Thereby bringing about the perfect will of our Father.

It's all about belief. Jesus tells us over and over to believe on me as Messiah. Believe on me for I am the Lamb of God. If you don't believe on me, then you will die in your sins. Never does He say: Believe I'm God manifested in the flesh and you won't die in your sins. It's true He is, but He never links that knowledge to salvation. He knows the Holy Ghost will write that truth upon the redeemed heart.

[onli-one-jehovi]

To be fair, He was talking to Jews who already believed that. He did say: Unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins". The question then, is: HE WHO?

Go back to the scriptures and see "who" the people were looking for. John says they were looking for the Christ. And they didn't really have the right idea about what that entailed.

Exactly!  The "right idea about what that entailed" escaped and escapes MANY who God has graciously filled with His Spirit.  Those you speak of above and those since then MUST KNOW that this Messiah IS the One God of eternity.  Yes, the Jews got it wrong about the Messiah on many fronts, but the greatest blindness was in the fact that, yes, God (their Yahweh/Elohim) DID become a man.  THAT is the reason (because He claimed to be their God) they wanted to kill Him, not because He claimed to be the Christ.

But they will know, eventually. They'll know as the Spirit of truth within reveals it.  Did not you, yourself once "know" but you never "knew" until that day the Holy Ghost made so clear? Were you more saved afterward or just more sure of the Word?

As far as the Jews today – they still believe in one God but not Christ. Are they saved? Aren't they looking for another?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Even when you get to Acts and preaching to Jews and Gentiles; we see -God hath made this crucified Jesus both Lord and Christ. There is never any mention necessitating initial belief in oneness of God.

Lord (Yahweh) and Christ (anointed one/Messiah/Savior).  God and man.  You've got to believe both.....in One Person.  They KNEW who "Lord" referred to.  Peter was speaking in Hebrew.  Lord = Yahweh, the only God they knew.  It was that revelation that prompted the question "what must we do?".

God made Jesus God and Messiah? What happened to I am God and there is none besides me?

Strongs says that Lord in this verse means supreme authority & Christ means Messiah. Jesus made Lord is likened to Pharaoh making Joseph ruler over all the land of Egypt. Jesus himself said: All power {authority} in heaven and earth is given to me. Only in the throne is God above him. That's why Jesus repeatedly spoke of Men keeping His words. That's why He repeatedly emphasizes: You have heard it said...______. But I tell you.... ________. Jesus was re-prioritizing and re-interpreting {clarifying} what the people understood. Like us, they were 2000 years removed and things had gotten misconstrued. Now that Messiah was here, things will be different. The Law was the schoolmaster, waiting for the Son to appear. The Son was given authority over it all. He is more than authorized to re-arrange whatever He wants.

Making Jesus Lord also satisfies the OT requirements of Messiah being King. It tells those who were looking for the conquering one who smashes all enemies and restores Israel's freedom. Peter was saying these are the two who are one. Jesus of Nazareth is both supreme authority {Lord} & anointed Messiah. {Christ}.

It was the recognition of the crucified Jesus, - their supreme authority and Messiah - that prompted the question: What shall we do? This was a cry from the heart toward their God; and the reply of subjects to their King.  The result being: not my will but thy will be done.

Look back at the gospels where Jesus is telling the people: Believe on me. You believe in God, believe on me also. Believe on the name of the Son of God.

[onli-one-jehovi]

The fact that God was manifested in flesh becomes of secondary importance here. Secondary, not primary.

Man, this grieves me in my spirit so badly, Jerry.     I'm not being rude, but I say it in love: placing "God manifested in flesh" as secondary is the beginning of a loosening of the grip on truth.  It leads to much of what you and I disagree on.  Just telling how I feel, friend.

Knowing the "Christ" is important, salvational even, but knowing WHO it was that became the Christ is infinitely more important than anything.  Believing on the Christ and not believing He is the One God of eternity manifested in flesh is idolatry.  There will be many Christs (anointed ones) come in this day, but we'd better know WHO the real Christ is to weed through all the false ones.

Thank you for the concern. I know it is sincere. However, don't worry about that. The truth about God manifesting in the flesh cannot be taken away from me. I've believed that before I ever understood it.

When a search of the gospels is made, we find the truth of God becoming the man Jesus of Nazareth. John especially brings that to the fore. It is primarily in John that we see the "I AM" statements in which Jesus affirmed His deity. It is also in John that we see so many "believes" regarding Jesus' role as Messiah. The "believes statements" far outweigh the "I AM statements". In fact toward the end of his writings, John says: these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Nothing there tying "God in flesh" to eternal life. In fact, this same John wrote later: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
He also said: And this is his {God} commandment: that we should believe on the name of his son Jesus Christ, and love one another.

Nothing about first believing manifested in the flesh. The commandment is always to believe on Jesus. A reconciled heart can be taught what's right; but they have to be reconciled first.

Christ and him crucified is essential; all else falls into place behind that.

As far as telling the false Christ from the true - you just go by the Book. We know Jesus is the Messiah and there is not another to come. A false Christ should not be able to fool us. We might be fooled by false ministers who seem to know the Lord; or are themselves misguided. The answer is the same - look at the Book. Biblical Truth always trumps Denominal Truth. Isn't that what we're looking at here?

I've been tapping out pieces of this over the last few days. I hope it comes together. I might have to go back and answer again.

[Brother Dad]

People will continue to comprise but God will never change!!!!

Num 15:15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the Lord.
16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

[Brother Dad]

Everyone must go the same way for remittance of sins.  God Does Not Change.

Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

[Brother Dad]

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God has never change and will never change.  One way everything else is false doctrine.

[Brother Dad]

Mal 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not


Old or New the LORD Jesus Christ never changes.  Always just one Spirit and never three persons.  People must leave false doctrine and stand for truth.

[OGIA]

But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (Mt 22:34-38)

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.  (Mk 12:28-30)

Look again at the question: Which is the first commandment in the law?

Which question?  There are two asked above.

I've been tapping out pieces of this over the last few days. I hope it comes together. I might have to go back and answer again.

You've done enough, Jerry.  Don't sweat trying to prove what you believe is primary anymore.  There's really no use in it.  We'll just disagree what is priority and who God claims to be His children.   :grin:

[titushome]

If God reveals to someone His perfect will {Romans 12 - good/acceptable/perfect} regarding baptism in the name of Jesus - then it becomes necessary for that person.

Is this Biblical? Are people, Christian or otherwise, only accountable to God if, when and only if/when God reveals to them His commandments? Are they off-the hook, if you will, i.e. not required by God to obey His Word, if God has not personally revealed Biblical Truth to them? I see no Scriptural support or evidence for this.

This is absolutely true.  But the question here concerns exactly which of God's commands must be obeyed before one can enter into His life, and become one of His children and a member of His Church.  As OGIA posted just above me:

We'll just disagree what is priority and who God claims to be His children.

And I must agree with OGIA: it's apparent that there won't be much, if any, further agreement among the participants in this discussion.  This topic has been discussed to death, and this thread is probably near its end.

[Melody]

It's hard to address so many avenues that have taken off in this thread, but for the Word of God's sake, I wanted to post some scriptures.  There is a law of God on everyone's heart, and to follow that will cause one to be led to salvation, oneness.  Someone may not know Act 2:38, maybe they never heard it, but there were things they DID know and when they allowed their consciences to be seared, they inhibited themselves from recieving more.  God said those that hunger and thirst SHALL be filled.  I have to believe that if a soul was truly hungry for God/truth/righteousness, God would deliver salvation to them.  I can't judge the nice old grandma from 1942 that "loved God" and appeared to be a devoted Godly person but never experience new birth, I can only go by the His Word and leave the judgement to Him. 

Rom 2:12-15 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;  (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 

Rom 3:19-21 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;  

Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 3:31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. 

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 

Eze 18:20-22  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.  ¶ But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.  All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Eze 18:24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Eze 18:26-27  When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

[onli-one-jehovi]

But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. (Mt 22:34-38)

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.  (Mk 12:28-30)

Look again at the question: Which is the first commandment in the law?

Which question?  There are two asked above.

I've been tapping out pieces of this over the last few days. I hope it comes together. I might have to go back and answer again.

You've done enough, Jerry.  Don't sweat trying to prove what you believe is primary anymore.  There's really no use in it.  We'll just disagree what is priority and who God claims to be His children.   :grin:

Jesus said both questions were in the law.

Yeah, we've had a good discussion all around. Thanks guys and gals. 

This is a buy week anyway. I've been delayed a lot. But, I do need to answer Raven before we call it quits.

Onward!

[onli-one-jehovi]

Italics = Raven .... Bold = OOJ

Quote
Baptism in Jesus name will eventually come to every Christian who continues to seek Him and walk in His righteousness.

This is not true. There is no absolute guaranty this will come to pass. To state otherwise is to state that all people that died professing belief in Jesus Christ, but where never baptized in His Name, either A) did not continue to seek Him and attempt to walk in His righteousness, making their faith void and of none effect, thus nullifying your point...

or

B) they never came to the "revelation" of Jesus Name Baptism, thus making, according to your view, God very suspect on when and how He chooses to reveal His perfect will, since He would have had to have allowed those that say they believe in Him but were never baptized in Jesus Name to die before they fulfilled His perfect will for their lives.

Clarification: Baptism in Jesus name should eventually come to every Christian who continues to seek him and walk in His righteousness.
 
Again, what is the Father's will? Jesus said: Repent and be baptized. He said these should be in His name {nature, character, authority}. Matthew 28 says: Baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Well, people obey that and God apparently considers that obedience to His will. If not, they would never receive the Holy Ghost.  Who, other than Jesus, ever walked perfectly before Him? No one. God is merciful to allow us 30% minimum.
 
I can't tell you absolutely what happens to those who "see" Jesus' name baptism and reject it. No more than I can tell you what happens to those who "see" the truth about tithes and reject that. Or for that matter, reject any other truth. Our Father will deal with it. Individually as He sees fit.



My answer about all of this is: God is not at fault.


Who said God was at fault?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Raven = italics ..... Ooj = bold

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And since it's not His will that any perish, but rather that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9) and salvation and truth (1 Timothy 2:4), we have a contradiction in what you are stating. Consider, the Holy Spirit of Truth will lead and guide all believers into all truth. You've stated that water baptism by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ is Biblical Truth, having yourself experienced it, so to say that those who died never being baptized that way suggests that the Holy Ghost did not lead them into all truth before they died, thus contradicting God's will that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. Why would God contradict His own will, allowing these people to perish outside of Jesus Name Baptism Truth, even though they are filled with His Spirit and He promised to lead them into all Truth? Is God a liar?


No, God is not a liar. Nor does He contradict His own will. The fact that God Himself fills non-baptized Jesus name Believers with the HG, is evidence that person attained – at the very least – the good will of God. The only way they would perish would be if attaining the perfect will of God was necessary. I've never said that was so. The HG will lead and guide into all truth. However, the amount of truth each individual is required is unknown to us. How much truth do you personally not yet know? How many of us are currently walking in only 30/good or 60/acceptable, while striving for 100/perfect? The leading of the HG is life-long. I trust Him to reveal all truth that is absolutely necessary to be saved {make it to Heaven}. He will as long as I walk by faith and in the Spirit; listening and changing where directed.

[onli-one-jehovi]

So then, should we assume that if we do not perform the "perfect will of God", there is some form of a second option that God will accept regarding salvation and eternity? Because if that is so, then no one will have to seek and strive for the Perfect Will, knowing they will make it HOME on a technicality we might dare to call God's Plan B for disobedient, lazy, wannabe believers/pretenders to the Throne.
There is no second option regarding salvation. All must come thru the cross of Calvary. All must come thru the door of the crucified Son of God. There is no other access to the Father's Kingdom. It is only then that we seek the perfect will of God for the destiny of our lives. It is only then that the journey truly begins. There is no Plan B. Not for salvation. The cross or Hell. No other options.     


Only the carnally religious people who do not have a solid relationship with Him would settle being "disobedient, lazy, wannabe believers/pretenders to the Throne".  Those who have a real relationship cannot help but be obedient to scripture, obeying the admonition to "be perfect as your Father is perfect" Perfect meaning mature/complete. Real believers are being transformed into the image of His Son. Real believers are intent upon finishing the course and apprehending that of which I am apprehended of. Real believers continually press forward. Real believers strive for 30-60-100 fold fruit. Real believers press forward into the good-acceptable-perfect will of God. The fakes will never do that. Bible calls them tares.


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The process of maturity in Christ is time consuming. Maturity/perfection does not happen instantaneously. Baptism in Jesus name...

Baptism in Jesus Name is not at the mature, "12th grade level". Scripture calls the doctrine of baptisms the principles of the doctrine of Christ, i.e. the very foundation of Christian belief, along with the other five, they being repentance from dead works, faith toward God, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment (Hebrews 6:1-3). In fact, by following the context of Hebrews 5:12, it is correctly understood that these foundational beliefs (including the doctrine of baptisms: Water and Spirit a la John 3:3,5) are the milk of the Word.

Yes, baptism is the milk of the word and foundational. However, in the context of our conversation, we are dealing with people who have been scripturally obedient to Matthew, not someone who has never been baptized. In this case, perfection may not come for years or at all. Our Father still continues to lead and guide them in His loving care. He will reveal what He chooses, when He chooses.

Our commandment is to love the brethren, doing what we can to build up one another. The mistake so many make, is to confine the Body to their doctrinal truth.   


We must try to become mature and start thinking about more than just the basic things we were taught about Christ. We shouldn't need to keep talking about why we ought to turn from deeds that bring death and why ought to have faith in God. AND WE SHOULDN'T NEED TO KEEP TEACHING ABOUT BAPTISMS...

Baptism in Jesus Name is not a mature, far-future revelation for professing believers sometime down the road after they've professed faith in Christ for years. It is an elementary, basic principle. It is milk.

Really? So all those wonderful Apostolic pioneers who received the Holy Ghost at Azuza Street – instantaneously saw Jesus name baptism? It wasn't a mature, far-future revelation several years afterward? That's news to me.


To continuously have to keep teaching and proving it over and over again to those that should already know it, understand it, and have obeyed it, is a sign of immaturity, i.e. a lack of perfection in the believer.

That's how I feel every time a topic is sidelined into baptism and godhead.


The trinitarian professer in Christ or any other professer that has not been baptized in Jesus Name is not the immature, imperfect one. They aren't even ready for milk simply because they haven't even been born again/from above. Maybe, maybe, we could get away with saying that they are in some kind of womb of belief, but they have not been born into God's kindgom until water baptism in Jesus Name. So, they aren't the immature ones.

Sounds like you are the one who thinks God a liar. He continuously fills repentant souls - who passed thru Calvary – with the Holy Ghost. He continually translates souls out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. He continually produces the fruit of the Spirit in lives many here call "lost". He continuously leads into deeper truths. He continuously reveals the perfect will of His name. He continuously works in the lives of His children.

Continuously to people baptized in obedience to Mt 28:19.

Scripture says the Holy Ghost is a gift for the redeemed children of God. A gift that the world cannot receive.

BUT THEY RECEIVE IT!

Like it or not, the issue has to be dealt with; especially in these last hours. Like it or not, we can accept what God is doing and embrace our brethren; teaching and being taught. Or, we can continue to reject what God is doing and ignore our brethren; remaining isolated within the confines of religious doctrine.
I may not understand it, but I've accepted what God is doing and embraced my siblings in Christ. I'm following the advice of Gamaliel: If this is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow, but you might be found opposing God.

You do what you want.


We are endlessly filling up pages and pages on a message board going round and round about the princples of the doctrine of Christ, attempting to trump one another, disprove one another, thinking that Scripture agress with us when we're the ones that need to be agreeing with Scripture. Brethren, these things ought not to be.

There is only ONE BAPTISM. This ONE BAPTISM is by immersion in the only name under heaven given amongst men by with we must be saved: the name of Jesus Christ. To argue and contend against that is either a sign of someone not born again or someone still drinking milk when they should be eating meat.

How does anyone get an argument against the name of Jesus? How is this misconstrued? Yes, perfect pronouncement is "in the name of Jesus". But, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" has proven acceptable to God. Otherwise, there would be no infilling of the Holy Ghost! Don't get mad at me, get mad at Him.

I recommend a research on the word "name" to find out exactly how it applies to the saints.   


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...the church system {corporately} is the last place He counts on...

Except when it comes to preaching, teaching, ministering, laying on of hands, healing the sick, praying for the lost, etc.

Where two or more are gathered, Jesus is there. That's the corporate church. It doesn't have to be 100+ people in a chosen location to be the {corporate} church. Just two or three. And God almost always completely relies upon us, the Church, in whatever numbers we be, whether 12 or 120, to do His Work and Will. Jesus is the Head, we are His Body. He operates in and through us, not independently of His people, else how are we His Beloved Kingdom of Priests if He comes to us last and counts on us least to accomplish His desires in this lost world?
 
 
Let me clarify.  The modern, unscriptural, error-filled organization recognized as "the church". He always prefers to move individually within His Body. Not talking about the organic Body, but rather the false body we traditionally know. But that's another topic.     
        

they have not been born into God's kingdom until water baptism in Jesus Name.

 
The Bible says that the foundations of the New Jerusalem bear the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb.
 
Query: Were they baptized in Jesus name?    Can it be proven?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Good counsel Mel!   

[Raven180]

Thank you for the clarification. It has helped me to understand where you are coming from. This part especially:

Clarification: Baptism in Jesus name should eventually come to every Christian who continues to seek him and walk in His righteousness.

That word "should" is such a powerful, necessary word in this statement. I agree with your clarification. Again, thanks. Of course, the word "should" then implies it is conditional, and at any time the condition is not met (seeking and attempting to walk in righteousness), then the "should" of the statement is no longer as automatic as it could have been.

Well, people obey that and God apparently considers that obedience to His will. If not, they would never receive the Holy Ghost.

I'm not convinced of this. Two reasons: one, if Matthew 28:19 was to be obeyed literally, why did it never appear again in Scripture (i.e. Acts and the Epistles) as the application of the command? Secondly, there is startling evidence that suggests that Matthew 28:19, as it is now written, was not a part of the autograph, but rather a later insert. I'm not saying yea or nay on the matter, only suggesting the possibility. To read more, go here:

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/wordonmatt2819.htm

http://www.jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/catholic/matthew2819.html

So, if the wording is original, then no Apostle, including the one who wrote it (Matthew) understood Jesus any other way than the way Peter preached in Acts 2:38, since we see the other Apostles standing with Peter when he spoke. If the wording is not original, and the Eusebian form is correct, than there truly is no Bible standard for the triune formula, seeing is is a artifice constructed by men and not by God. (If a person is really interested, just do a simple Google.com search on: Eusebian form of Matthew 28:19. There you will find enough links to read for days on the subject.)

So then, with the real possibility that "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" should not even be a part of Scripture, and that no Apostle, including Matthew countenanced these supposed words of Christ as how to baptize anyone, to assume that God considers it obedience to His will is at least suspicious and at most, blatantly not true.

So the real question is, why does God fill people with the Holy Ghost, even those not baptized in Jesus' Name? It's not an arbitrary point. It really must be answered. (To answer of course, implies twenty more pages to this post, and I for one am not sure that that is in anyone's best interest.)

I will say this, in response to this:

If not, they would never receive the Holy Ghost.

Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit before any form of water baptism, just like many people throughout the world, throughout time, whether trinitarian or not. Therefore, Spirit baptism is a separate experience that works or operates independently of water baptism, whether it be in Jesus' Name or not. So then, God filling someone with the Holy Ghost is not dependent of how a person is baptized, meaning God's will is not violated if someone received the Holy Ghost before Jesus' Name baptism, but neither does it mean that God's will is automatically and completely fulfilled for a person if they receive the Holy Ghost but are not baptized in Jesus' Name. The plural doctrine of baptisms is just that: plural.

Many translations correctly read: doctrine of diverse washings instead of "baptisms". This is good, because the Bible does give us more than one form of spiritual washing in New Testament Scripture. However, the washing regarding water baptism is very clear: Titus 3:5. This washing, in the Greek, is the loutron (immersive bath) of the New Birth (John 3:3-5, where "born again" is the same Greek word for regeneration in Titus 3:5), where a person's entire body is [loutron] in pure water, even as their conscience is sprinkled (Hebrews 10:22), because the blood of Jesus [loutron] the sinner and saved him/her from death at water baptism in Jesus' Name (Revelation 1:5)

The fact that God Himself fills non-baptized Jesus name Believers with the HG, is evidence that person attained – at the very least – the good will of God.

They are receiving the renewal of the Holy Ghost, but not the washing of regeneration, according to Titus 3:5, which is a separate, distinct experience, as Acts 8:5-17 shows.

The only way they would perish would be if attaining the perfect will of God was necessary. I've never said that was so...I trust Him to reveal all truth that is absolutely necessary to be saved {make it to Heaven}.

I'm not seeing a clear, Scriptural distinction between this so-called perfect will of God for salvation and everything else that might be labeled the imperfect, or non-complete will of God. Jesus simply states that those who do not do the will of the Father are workers of iniquity and they will be cast out in the day of their Judgment. I am aware of Romans 12:1-2, but isn't it rather describing one and the same will, that is adjectively described at once as good, acceptable and perfect, rather than denoting three different stages of God's will?

For example, any statement in English with three adjectives are not denoting three separate subjects/entities within one statement, but rather are describing that one and self-same subject/entity, in one statement. For example this post is (1)long, (2)informative and at times (3)divisive. I am not describing three different posts. I am describing one post three different ways. Therefore, I conclude that God's ONE will is being described three different ways, namely that it is good, acceptable, and perfect, as opposed to three different wills each being uniquely described, with one simply being good, the second being acceptable, the third being perfect.

The HG will lead and guide into all truth. However, the amount of truth each individual is required is unknown to us.

Jesus said that we will know the Truth and the Truth will make us free (John 8:32). Apparently we will know the Truth at a level sufficient for freedom/salvation. Jesus bears witness of the Truth and all those who are of the Truth hear His voice (John 18:37). If we cannot discern how much Truth we need in order to be saved on an individual level, then perhaps we are not of the Truth, not being able to hear His voice? This is catastrophic because Jesus said He calls His sheep by name and His sheep know His voice and follow Him (John 10:1-5). If a person cannot know the level of Truth they need in order to be saved, then they must not be one of Christ' sheep, because they cannot hear/recognize His voice, not being of the Truth, meaning they must be attempting to get into the sheepfold some other way than but through the Door.

(continued...)