Apostolic Truth Questions

[yosemite]

Phil 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

applies here too!!                             

[yosemite]

Sorry, but I have to ask: what in the Bible tells you that someone who believes in the erroneous doctrine of trinitarianism is not saved, or not part of the Body?

I believe the Bible is clear that idolatry will send someone to hell.  The true doctrine of the trinity is about worshipping more than one person who is God.  How is that not idolatry?  Is the trinity any different than worshipping one of the Hindu gods?  If so, how?  Just because someone claims to worship the "Christian God", do they really?  If they worship another Person besides Jesus Christ as God, are they worshipping in truth --- one of the requirements by the Father for true worship?  If it's not "true" worship, will He accept it?

I do believe there are variants of beliefs in the trinity (just as there are in Oneness), but I've IMO false doctrine is that which does not exalt Jesus Christ...and HIM ALONE.....as the One God of eternity.  Even if someone says they believe that but then turns around and says "but then there's also the Father, yet they are one", I still don't think they are worshipping one God.

I know a man who was baptized in Jesus' name, and is full of the Holy Spirit, and is doing his best to live a Godly life and grow in God - but he believes in the so-called trinity.  How would this one error result in him not being saved?

Is idolatry alone enough to send someone to hell?  I think it is.   

I do not think everyone has to agree with me.  A true Apostolic knows the scriptures are true and everything else is false.

I agree that the Scriptures are true.  But the question is not about truth - in this case, truth regarding oneness/trinity - as we are all in agreement concerning that.  The question is whether someone who does not yet see this truth will not be "saved."


I have started threads about how good God is to me, though it's been a while.  If you check, you might find some that haven't been cleared from the boards yet.  And it is true that I would do well to start such threads more often; one can never declare enough the goodness of God!

But this thread is not a praise and testimony thread; the topic of conversation is "Apostolic Truth Questions."  And you still have not answered my question: what in the Bible tells you that someone who believes in the erroneous doctrine of trinitarianism is not saved, or not part of the Body?  There is no question or debate here about the error of trinitarianism; the question is whether belief in this particular falsehood will cause a man to be lost to God.  Answer with Scripture, please.


It is my hope that we as brothers will sharpen one another as iron sharpens iron - but for that to happen, the pieces of iron must strike one another; they must clash.  If we limit ourselves to discussing things on which we already agree, then no one will ever be sharpened, so to speak.

Phil 2:12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

applies here too!!                            

Here's another way of looking at it: trinitarians, as far as I know, worship the God who has revealed Himself to us in and through the person of Jesus Christ.  How then are they failing to exalt Him as "the One God of eternity"?

But, do they worship the One God AS the Person Jesus Christ or as the 2nd person of the trinity?  If they chose "b", then they are not worshipping God in His fullest revelation.  They are worshipping another "part" of God, not God in fullness.

The nature of God far exceeds the capacity of the human mind to understand.  Oneness beliefs and trinitarianism are two modern attempts to explain Him; and in my opinion, oneness is much closer to the truth of understanding who and what God is, and how He is who He is through Jesus Christ.  But the error of trinitarianism is not a fatal one, because it still acknowledges God in Christ, and Christ as God.

Trying to understand how God could be both Father in Heaven and Son on earth is no small undertaking.  Take note of the all the times Jesus addresses the Father, or makes reference to the Father.  Is Jesus talking to Himself, or referring to Himself in the third person?  To whom did Jesus pray?  Is Jesus schizo, or what?  These are difficult questions to answer, and it's no small wonder that so many in trying to understand have fallen into such errors as trinitarianism.

Definitely not.  But of much greater significance than professing belief in the trinity is this: claiming to worship the "Christian God," but not walking in His ways.  Because by not walking in His ways, I am not with my life acknowledging Him as Lord and God.  This is true idolatry; this is truly what it means to follow after or serve a false god.

You didn't ask me about disobedience or how to explain the Father/Son relationship.  The points above are pertinent and dangerous, too; but that's not what you asked.  You asked, if I'm not mistaken, why trinitarians would be lost, right?  I pointed out that the true trinitarian doctrine is equal to idolatry, because it does not allow worship of Jesus Christ and Him alone as the One God. 

So, I stand by my beliefs: the trinitarian doctrine is idolatry.  Whoever is holding to it in the end will not be accepted by the Lord as His children.  He will no more accept them as He will the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, narcissist or atheist.

ogia & bro dad =     

[titushome]

You asked, if I'm not mistaken, why trinitarians would be lost, right?  I pointed out that the true trinitarian doctrine is equal to idolatry, because it does not allow worship of Jesus Christ and Him alone as the One God. 

I guess we're at something of an impasse then; I must contend that for most trinitarians, their trinitarianism is not idolatry, but only an incorrect way of looking at or understanding God's nature or being.

I've read the writings of some trinitarians who, yes, essentially believe in three gods.  Some have even gone so far as to advocate devoting equal amounts of prayer time to each "person" in the "trinity."  But most trinitarians, from my point of view, believe in only one God, to whom they wrongly apply this incorrect traditional doctrine known as trinitarianism.

[yosemite]

To prove the singular is the intent of one-God in Genesis 1:1 the verb is singular which identifies the subject as being singular. Although trinitarians do not like it and say the Jews are telling lies, the ancient Godly Israelites always understood God to be one person, a numerical ONE and not three. They understood the plural Elohim to speak of the majesty of intensity and his attributes of power. And for any trinitarian to say the plural means *GODS*, then let them translate it that way and see what a mess they make of the Scriptures.  Even staunch trinitarians know this would be a pollution and sacrilege.  The great schema: Hear O Israel the LORD our God is one LORD, settles the argument. But within Mystery Babylon the skilled scribes of the occult would not be so easily exposed and rebuked by Jewish doctrine. No, they would live by the reinterpretations of Nimrod and his gnosticism and impregnate the world with his doctrines. And thus we have Ministers and people today who believe in the trinitarian doctrine of Mystery Babylon and don't know it is a philosophy of man and not a true doctrine of God.

Light To The Nations

The Trinity Doctrine Is Pagan

By Pastor G. Reckart, Pastor

[onli-one-jehovi]

So, I stand by my beliefs: the trinitarian doctrine is idolatry.  Whoever is holding to it in the end will not be accepted by the Lord as His children.  He will no more accept them as He will the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, narcissist or atheist.

But there's part of that equation I'm not sure being considered: Many have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and spoken in tongues.

Besides, as far as I can tell from scripture, Mankind will be judged for eternal destinination by acceptance or rejection of Jesus; and not understanding the godhead. It's all about Jesus; not anyone's doctrine. Look at just this one sample found in John 3:14-21:


And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved {discovered}. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


1... no one comes to God unless seeking truth & drawn by God

2... the HG is not given to sinners

3... anyone coming thru 1 & 2 is a child of God, scripturally proven accepted by Him

4... the HG is poured into a leavened vessel, clean but spotted. It takes TIME for the leaven of religion to be purged. That includes the Apostolic, oneness portion too. All of us are undergoing the purging of religious leaven and the expansion of the pure unleavened Word of God.

Remember the Lord's admonition to Peter: Do not call what I've cleansed, unclean!

[yosemite]

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved {discovered}. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

didnt Jesus say if you beleive in me follow my commandments?!! i'm not a JUST beleive person.
i feel you also have to follow the commands given by Jesus. when you follow the commands given, you change the should not to would not, or at least you can take it in the literal sence that OOJ has posted it.

[onli-one-jehovi]

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved {discovered}. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

didnt Jesus say if you beleive in me follow my commandments?!! i'm not a JUST beleive person.
i feel you also have to follow the commands given by Jesus. when you follow the commands given, you change the should not to would not, or at least you can take it in the literal sence that OOJ has posted it.

Well, scripture - as well as Jesus the Word - repeatedly and emphatically stresses belief. Belief in what? Jesus is the Lamb of God; the Savior of the world; the Messiah; the Son of God; the mediator between God and Man. And that can only come by the HG that draws anyone seeking the light of truth. {no one calls Jesus Lord except by (revealed) the Holy Ghost} It is only after that other commandments can be obeyed.

If we look at "Believing in Jesus as Messiah" as commandment #1, and everything else numerically following as #2, #3, #4, etc.; then adherence or understanding or believing those becomes a moot point if #1 is not obeyed. It is entirely possible to believe in one God, Creator of Heaven and Earth; baptism for remission of sin; the gift of the Holy Ghost; living a good, biblically moral life; and still be lost. Why? Because Jesus is not believed in as Savior, thereby not accepted individually.

That's why Jesus says "should" and not "would". Mankind "should believe this", but most will not. If I don't believe in Him, I will not obey His commandments. If I don't believe in Him, it doesn't matter what the Bible says about anything. Especially the godhead. Who cares! Unbeleivers dont! Only believers in Christ even remotely wrestle with such matters. But they're following the Lord. As best they know how. Just like us.

Simple as that. Thus the danger we face when condemining to hell those who may or may not understand exactly as I.

[yosemite]

Jesus said if you beleive in me also do my commands. this is at the same time not one after the other. but as you say one without the other is useless and shows a non-conformity.

[OGIA]

You asked, if I'm not mistaken, why trinitarians would be lost, right?  I pointed out that the true trinitarian doctrine is equal to idolatry, because it does not allow worship of Jesus Christ and Him alone as the One God. 

I guess we're at something of an impasse then; I must contend that for most trinitarians, their trinitarianism is not idolatry, but only an incorrect way of looking at or understanding God's nature or being.

Well, then, we're not really at an impasse.    As bishopnl asked about a "trinitarian who.....", so goes the ones you speak about above.  IF  (BIG if!)  they worship Jesus Christ as the Only God of eternity, then they are NOT trinitarians.  Just like someone won't be saved just because they call themselves "Christian",  neither will someone be lost just because they call themselves "trinitarian".  It's the fruit of the belief, not the name, that will lead someone to be lost, IMO.

[titushome]

Just like someone won't be saved just because they call themselves "Christian",  neither will someone be lost just because they call themselves "trinitarian".  It's the fruit of the belief, not the name, that will lead someone to be lost, IMO.

I absolutely, 100% agree.  With the part I made blue, especially. 

[OGIA]

So, I stand by my beliefs: the trinitarian doctrine is idolatry.  Whoever is holding to it in the end will not be accepted by the Lord as His children.  He will no more accept them as He will the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, narcissist or atheist.

But there's part of that equation I'm not sure being considered: Many have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and spoken in tongues.

Jerry,

I have no doubt trinitarians are born again.  Why not them, but atheists or Muslims, etc?  But, that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about being "saved"......ie: making it to eternity with the Lord.  If you'll look at my wording, I said "whoever is holding to it (trinitarian belief) in the end....".  I absolutely believe He will give the born again trinitarian every opportunity (and more) to see the error of that doctrine, as He will the Muslim to see that He is not Allah (even though the Muslims are strict oneness adherents ).

Besides, as far as I can tell from scripture, Mankind will be judged for eternal destinination by acceptance or rejection of Jesus; and not understanding the godhead. It's all about Jesus; not anyone's doctrine.

I'm going to take your comments above and insert some comments of my own and show you why I feel the doctrine of (what we call) "oneness" is the most important doctrine of scripture.  Yes, even above the doctrine of the new birth......

Besides, as far as I can tell from scripture, Mankind will be judged for eternal destinnation by acceptance or rejection of Jesus as the only God of eternity become the Savior of mankind; and not understanding the godhead, even though since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse; It's all about Jesus (who is the only God of eternity and who must be recognized as such); not anyone's doctrine but His, which defines Him as the one and only God of eternity and requires that He be recognized as such or it becomes idolatry.

[Somnic]

Trinitarionism isn't just for those who believe in the three godheads.  As I have stated in my thread "Someone Please Explain to me"

I have heard many variations of the "Trinity".  I have heard the one where people believe that they will see three divine beings when they get to heaven.  I have heard one where people believe that there are three gods in one supreme being.  I have heard that there are three persons.  And most recently I have heard of the Trinity as in one God but with three roles, and those three roles labled as the Trinity. 

The last one is more along the lines that we believe.  One God with three caracteristics, being the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.  But just saying believing in the "Trinity" is wrong may not be wrong, if its the last one stated.  If you hear someone believing in the "Trinity", ask them first what it is they believe.  It may be that they believe in the same one God with three roles as we do.  Just saying that someone believes in the "Trinity" doesn't automatically mean they believe in more than one Godhead.

Just my $0.2

We label people trinitarians and automatically assume that they are believing in the three godheads.  This isn't the case always.  From what I have heard and read, there are allot of "trinitarians" who believe in the "Trinity as being the three roles that God plays:  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.  If someone says that they believe in the "Trinity", wouldn't it be better to ask them what it is that they believe, than to jump to conclusions and assume that they are talking about the three godheads? 

Its NOT our place to judge.  Only God can do that: DEUT 1:17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgement; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is Gods: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.  God specifically says LEV 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self: I am the Lord.  Love thy neighbour  Only God can judge

[onli-one-jehovi]

So, I stand by my beliefs: the trinitarian doctrine is idolatry.  Whoever is holding to it in the end will not be accepted by the Lord as His children.  He will no more accept them as He will the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, narcissist or atheist.

But there's part of that equation I'm not sure being considered: Many have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and spoken in tongues.

Jerry,

I have no doubt trinitarians are born again.  Why not them, but atheists or Muslims, etc?  But, that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about being "saved"......ie: making it to eternity with the Lord.  If you'll look at my wording, I said "whoever is holding to it (trinitarian belief) in the end....".  I absolutely believe He will give the born again trinitarian every opportunity (and more) to see the error of that doctrine, as He will the Muslim to see that He is not Allah (even though the Muslims are strict oneness adherents ).

Besides, as far as I can tell from scripture, Mankind will be judged for eternal destinination by acceptance or rejection of Jesus; and not understanding the godhead. It's all about Jesus; not anyone's doctrine.

I'm going to take your comments above and insert some comments of my own and show you why I feel the doctrine of (what we call) "oneness" is the most important doctrine of scripture.  Yes, even above the doctrine of the new birth......

Besides, as far as I can tell from scripture, Mankind will be judged for eternal destinnation by acceptance or rejection of Jesus as the only God of eternity become the Savior of mankind; and not understanding the godhead, even though since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse; It's all about Jesus (who is the only God of eternity and who must be recognized as such); not anyone's doctrine but His, which defines Him as the one and only God of eternity and requires that He be recognized as such or it becomes idolatry.

I have no doubt trinitarians are born again.  Why not them, but atheists or Muslims, etc?  But, that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about being "saved"......ie: making it to eternity with the Lord.  If you'll look at my wording, I said "whoever is holding to it (trinitarian belief) in the end....".  I absolutely believe He will give the born again trinitarian every opportunity (and more) to see the error of that doctrine, as He will the Muslim to see that He is not Allah (even though the Muslims are strict oneness adherents ).


I see what you're saying. Thanks for clarifying. 

I see a contradiction though.... in previous posts, "trinitarians" were determined by you not to be in the church {born again}; yet here there is no doubt some are. Since that is the case, what is the difference between "trinitarians" coming to see the error of that doctrine; and "oneness" coming to see the error of theirs? Surely there are errors {leaven} in the entire Body that needs correcting w/o damning us all?

Big difference between Muslims and "trinitarians". As Titushome said: Trinitarians see the godhead under different terminology/expression of the one God. They still believe in and hold Jesus as Messiah at the focal point. Muslims do not believe in Jesus as Messiah. All Christians to them are infidels. No comparison there. 


As far as the other, I still don't quite agree 100%. I see what you're saying but do not see the godhead as the foundation; important as it is.

[Niki]

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

[OGIA]

I see a contradiction though.... in previous posts, "trinitarians" were determined by you not to be in the church {born again}; yet here there is no doubt some are. Since that is the case, what is the difference between "trinitarians" coming to see the error of that doctrine; and "oneness" coming to see the error of theirs? Surely there are errors {leaven} in the entire Body that needs correcting w/o damning us all?

I don't recall saying trinitarians weren't born again and in the Church?     And, I'm not sure what errors you are talking about "oneness" coming to see.  I've never said "oneness" is the end all of being saved, but I do believe it is necessary to be.  No, not an exact, perfect understanding, but one that results in the worship of ONE Person who is God: Jesus Christ.

Big difference between Muslims and "trinitarians". As Titushome said: Trinitarians see the godhead under different terminology/expression of the one God. They still believe in and hold Jesus as Messiah at the focal point. Muslims do not believe in Jesus as Messiah. All Christians to them are infidels. No comparison there. 

Holding Jesus as the Messiah does not = salvation to me.  Yes, that is part, but it does not grant entrance into or keep someone in the Body.  And, remember, I'm talking about being saved at death or rapture; not being in a "saved" state.  Many will be in a saved state and be lost in the end, IMO.    So, if someone is worshipping God as any person other than the Lord Jesus Christ -- be it the two "other" persons of the godhead or Allah -- then they will be rejected in the end.

I see what you're saying but do not see the godhead as the foundation; important as it is.

Jesus Christ is foundational, not the godhead.  Understanding that the fullness of the godhead dwells in that Man bodily is essential, not optional.  I believe the godhead to be a term that describes God in His existence in transcendence, ie: as the Father.  THAT godhead dwells in a human being, and the knowledge of that......which leads to true worship and obedience to the Gospel......is essential to salvation, IMO.  That's why He is the chief cornerstone.  God in man is the chief cornerstone, and the knowledge that it is God and 100% God in that role is why there is salvation in no other; not no other name (although true), but (more precisely) in no other Man than the One God became.

[Brother Dad]

I was born into the Apostolic Faith both naturally and Spiritually.  I was raised in an independent Apostolic Church.  At the age of 21 I prayed and told God I needed to know the truth for myself.  He then open my understanding of the Scriptures and bean to show me verse upon verse.  However I found out that many thing I had been taught were not how it was in the Bible.  Oh it did not change the plan of salvation, just some of the points they did or did not believe in.  I am now 48 almost 49 years old.  During my lifetime I have saw the fly by nights come and go.  The half wits and the dim wits that no matter what you showed them in the Word they were going to go their way.  I have heard just about ever foolish teaching and question a person can come up with.  Even heard someone ask where did Noah get the glass for the window in the ark.  I have seen them try to act like the were smart by saying the NT Church never went to a Church building, but are they meeting regularly in the saints house for their worship.  And for a side note check the 3rd chapter of the Book of Acts where were they going.  I have seen the never dying people.  The cloud doctrine people.   The list can go one.  They fit in the same group. 
2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I have seen compromising so called preachers and saints of God who refuse to stand for truth.  Either because of other men or just plan ignorance.  John 7:13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.

1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

So with that said I will say I will not longer play around with posting to people who refuse to obey the Scriptures or who chose to question Apostolic Truth. 

This post is titled Apostolic Truth questions because it was addressing this foolishness that was happening on other post.  So with that said I hope and pray we all come to the place where we say enough is enough.  Leave them along and the will go away.  Don't exchange post with them and they will stop.  As O said before there is a pm button if anyone needs to aks me a for real question.  Elsewise I am finished with this type of posting.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Thus, the bulk of the Church is biblically in error regarding baptism, and doesn't even realize it.


Is baptism in Jesus' name personal opinion or biblical truth? 

I can't answer your question, because I seem to also disagree with you on what the "Christian Church" is and who is in it.  I don't consider anything or anyone being the "church" that and who does not practice water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

So, my response to your premise would be that the two don't compare because only those who are absolutely correct about water baptism are "the Church".  
 
PS: I read Bro. Dad's post after I posted mine, but I would have most likely just quoted his and given that as my answer since they are very similar.  Jerry, you can't compare water baptism in Jesus' name with tithing and say the "bulk of the church" practices it wrong when I don't agree with you who is IN said Church.  I happen to believe tithing is not only a NT principle, but a godly principle that has endured for millenia.  I don't believe it is an issue of salvation, in and of itself; but I do question someone who doesn't give at least 10% of their firstfruits as to where their heart is.  And I believe it is "heart matters" that are salvational.  The acts we commit or don't commit for God are merely products of the heart.

Posted by: OGIA 

Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on Yesterday at 12:40:30 AM
I see a contradiction though.... in previous posts, "trinitarians" were determined by you not to be in the church {born again}; yet here there is no doubt some are. Since that is the case, what is the difference between "trinitarians" coming to see the error of that doctrine; and "oneness" coming to see the error of theirs? Surely there are errors {leaven} in the entire Body that needs correcting w/o damning us all?


I don't recall saying trinitarians weren't born again and in the Church?     And, I'm not sure what errors you are talking about "oneness" coming to see.  I've never said "oneness" is the end all of being saved, but I do believe it is necessary to be.   No, not an exact, perfect understanding, but one that results in the worship of ONE Person who is God: Jesus Christ.


Note the bold parts.

Generally, mostly "oneness" Christians are baptized in Jesus' name. The above statements imply no one else can be saved - either progressively or atthe end - otherwise. Since only the church makes up the Body of Christ, and judging by above statements only "oneness" believers incorporate that; ergo "trinitarians" are not saved, born-again, nor in the Church.

Just wondering.

Oh, errors in "oneness" are errors in understanding truth in the Word. Just like "trinitarian" errors are errors in understanding truth in the Word. Most such things are minimal and not necessarily salvational. For both camps.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Big difference between Muslims and "trinitarians". As Titushome said: Trinitarians see the godhead under different terminology/expression of the one God. They still believe in and hold Jesus as Messiah at the focal point. Muslims do not believe in Jesus as Messiah. All Christians to them are infidels. No comparison there. 

Holding Jesus as the Messiah does not = salvation to me.  Yes, that is part, but it does not grant entrance into or keep someone in the Body.  And, remember, I'm talking about being saved at death or rapture; not being in a "saved" state.  Many will be in a saved state and be lost in the end, IMO.    So, if someone is worshipping God as any person other than the Lord Jesus Christ -- be it the two "other" persons of the godhead or Allah -- then they will be rejected in the end.

How can anyone equate Allah = Father? Any "christian" who does simply reveals the falseness of knowing God. Such a one is immediately proved to be a liar and the truth {Jesus} not in him.

I've never in my life met a "trinitarian" christian who worshiped anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ is always the focal point in their life. Like them, we all worship the God Jesus worshipped. We are priviledged to do so in or thru the Body of Christ. HIS God is now our God. HIS Father is now our Father. Ain't no two's or three's anywhere in there. Never has been nor never will be.

The CHURCH worships God in Christ. The CHURCH bought with the incorruptible blood of the Lamb. The CHURCH brought out of darkness into light. The CHURCH saved by the gift of grace and not works. The CHURCH growing up into a mature son of God. The CHURCH walking in the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God. The CHURCH bone of HIS bone and flesh of HIS flesh. The CHURCH, the Lamb's wife.

THE CHURCH!


Sorry. Rejectors of Christ cannot be compared to Receivers of Christ. That's taking religion a little too far.

[onli-one-jehovi]

So with that said I will say I will not longer play around with posting to people who refuse to obey the Scriptures or who chose to question Apostolic Truth. 

This post is titled Apostolic Truth questions because it was addressing this foolishness that was happening on other post.  So with that said I hope and pray we all come to the place where we say enough is enough.  Leave them along and the will go away.  Don't exchange post with them and they will stop.  As O said before there is a pm button if anyone needs to aks me a for real question.  Elsewise I am finished with this type of posting.

Once again the false accusation goes out about "refusing to obey the Scriptures". That sounds good. Sounds real patriotic. Zealous even. Defending the faith once delivered to the saints; even though no one has questioned biblical faith at all. The questions have all been about our religious faith and Apostolic Truth compared to Biblical Truth.

My brother hit the nail on the head. At last, the real problem is revealed: who chose to question Apostolic Truth.   That is the worm in the bottom of the barrel. I don't claim to be Apostolic, (though I am); nothing wrong with that. I claim to be a Believer in the Body of Christ. {That's what bothers so many of my brethren}.

Where else to question Apostolic Truth, than on an Apostolic Truth topic? Where else to see if there is any leaven in our bread? As stated before, we all have religious leaven in our doctrine. We all have errors in which to correct. All of us. So why are we afraid? Why do we even broach secret answers to "real questions"? Haven't real questions been asked? Haven't real questions been evaded and sidetracked back to the familiar? Where in the Bible are we commanded not to question? Didn't the Bereans search the scriptures after hearing Paul?

There are things in the Spirit and things in the natural, that God is preparing. The time of the end is nigh. There are some in the Body that truly desire to understand what is biblical and what is not. It doesn't matter how long our "church" has or has not done this. Some of us want to grow beyond the confines of traditional knowledge and see - perhaps for the first time - Thus sayeth the Lord.

I have news for seekers. The answers sought will not be found in the pulpits of Apostolic Truth, Baptist Truth, Charismatic Truth, or any other Organizational Truth. They will only be found privately, individually, and personally searching the Word of God and allowing the Holy Ghost to lead the way.

Religion cannot answer Truth. And until Apostolic Truth = Biblical Truth, we dare not be so proud of ourselves.
*************************************************

Doogie, if you read this.... I eagerly await your reply. Hopefully work has calmed down a bit.

[Backseat Radio]

Where else to question Apostolic Truth, than on an Apostolic Truth topic? Where else to see if there is any leaven in our bread? As stated before, we all have religious leaven in our doctrine. We all have errors in which to correct. All of us. So why are we afraid? Why do we even broach secret answers to "real questions"? Haven't real questions been asked? Haven't real questions been evaded and sidetracked back to the familiar? Where in the Bible are we commanded not to question? Didn't the Bereans search the scriptures after hearing Paul?

We should be asking questions and making sure there isn't any false doctrine creaping into what we're teaching and practicing.  Sadly though many are too afraid to ask questions because questioning is not welcomed among many churches.  The Bereans were called noble because they went to the scriture and searched to make sure what the apostle Paul himself preached was according to scripture.  Can we not do the same with what we hear from a preacher or teacher with out having the preacher or teacher get mad because we're going back to scripture to make sure what they taught is true?

[Brother Dad]

We should be asking questions and making sure there isn't any false doctrine creaping into what we're teaching and practicing.  Sadly though many are too afraid to ask questions because questioning is not welcomed among many churches.  The Bereans were called noble because they went to the scriture and searched to make sure what the apostle Paul himself preached was according to scripture.  Can we not do the same with what we hear from a preacher or teacher with out having the preacher or teacher get mad because we're going back to scripture to make sure what they taught is true?

I agree with you BSR people should be able to ask the Pastor questions.  I always encouraged people to come to me and ask questions.  My problem with the way it is done here can cause people to become confused.  I would always go to my Pastor and go in private with my question least I fuel someone who is rebellious to find something else to fuss about.  I have offered people if they really have a question about what I believe to pm me.  I think it is wrong when we get into debates where everyone can see them.  As I was growing up I saw people who had questions who would just openly question the Pastor.  As a child I thought that was the Church was to be.  After I grew up I found the need for respecting the ministry.  I never had a problem going to my pastor nor did anyone that came to me and discussed matters.  But I always refused to debate with them.  I have seen however preachers who say "who are you to question the ministry".  We learn by questions ask in the proper matter.  But I never had time for people who just wanted to try and show how smart they thought they were.  But, by all means I would encourage everyone to go to your Pastor with a legitmate concern, ask for clarity in what they preach or teach.  All question are handle much better in this manner.

[Chseeads]

Yo - Don't use Reckart as a source....while he may have a few ideas that are good, he's crazy as a fruitbat and has scorned people all over the Internet for years...LOL..... 

Word to the wise...lol

To prove the singular is the intent of one-God in Genesis 1:1 the verb is singular which identifies the subject as being singular. Although trinitarians do not like it and say the Jews are telling lies, the ancient Godly Israelites always understood God to be one person, a numerical ONE and not three. They understood the plural Elohim to speak of the majesty of intensity and his attributes of power. And for any trinitarian to say the plural means *GODS*, then let them translate it that way and see what a mess they make of the Scriptures.  Even staunch trinitarians know this would be a pollution and sacrilege.  The great schema: Hear O Israel the LORD our God is one LORD, settles the argument. But within Mystery Babylon the skilled scribes of the occult would not be so easily exposed and rebuked by Jewish doctrine. No, they would live by the reinterpretations of Nimrod and his gnosticism and impregnate the world with his doctrines. And thus we have Ministers and people today who believe in the trinitarian doctrine of Mystery Babylon and don't know it is a philosophy of man and not a true doctrine of God.

Light To The Nations

The Trinity Doctrine Is Pagan

By Pastor G. Reckart, Pastor

[titushome]

My problem with the way it is done here can cause people to become confused.  I would always go to my Pastor and go in private with my question least I fuel someone who is rebellious to find something else to fuss about.

Well, someone who's rebellious will always find something to fuss about - their rebelliousness is their problem, and we shouldn't allow it to stifle our discussion.

Our real concern ought to be for those who are young in their faith - and even then, the concern isn't that they might hear more mature saints asking questions and/or disagreeing with one another; it's that some unscrupulous person might try to use the situation to deceive those who don't know any better.  Our concern should be for guarding those who are spiritually immature from such wolves in sheep's clothing.

I think it is wrong when we get into debates where everyone can see them.  As I was growing up I saw people who had questions who would just openly question the Pastor.  As a child I thought that was the Church was to be.  After I grew up I found the need for respecting the ministry.  I never had a problem going to my pastor nor did anyone that came to me and discussed matters.  But I always refused to debate with them.... We learn by questions ask in the proper matter.  But I never had time for people who just wanted to try and show how smart they thought they were.  But, by all means I would encourage everyone to go to your Pastor with a legitmate concern, ask for clarity in what they preach or teach.  All question are handle much better in this manner.

I see a problem with the approach that says questions should always be taken to privately to one's pastor, and never discussed/debated openly: it denies the ministry of ALL the saints, and sets up the pastor as the final arbiter (for the congregation he pastors) of what is and isn't true.

There certainly is a proper manner in which questions should be asked, but it has less to do with protocol followed than with the spirit or attitude with which they are asked.  Is the person asking questions doing so meekly?  With respect for others, with willingness to listen to what they have to say?  With an openness to learning?  To put it another way, are we operating in the Spirit?

Because it's when we start asking - or answering, for that matter - questions when "in the flesh," so to speak, that we get into trouble: pride, arrogance, antagonism, hostility, trying to lord ourselves over each other, etc.  These sorts of things will very quickly come to dominate the conversation when we're not in the Spirit.



Edit: given that this is an internet discussion forum, that adds a whole 'nother element to what I've described above.  It can be much more difficult to discern the spirit in which questions are asked or comments made, when all we have to go on are people's words (and sometimes a few emoticons ).  In normal conversation, we have tone of voice, body language, etc.; online we have none of those things.  We should all be very careful in wording our posts, as well as careful  and patient in trying to understand what someone else is trying to say before responding.

[OGIA]

Sorry. Rejectors of Christ cannot be compared to Receivers of Christ. That's taking religion a little too far.

Problem is, we disagree on the definition of "receivers of Christ".  As far as I'm concerned, someone who has not obeyed Acts 2:38 is no more "saved" than a Muslim. 

Also, there will be many who have "received Christ" who will be rejected in front of Him.  They will contend they were His children, but He will reject them.  Is that rejection anymore final than the rejection the Muslim, Buddhist or idolator will receive?

Lost is lost, Jerry.  We just disagree where God draws that line.

I've never in my life met a "trinitarian" christian who worshiped anyone other than the Lord Jesus Christ

I've met more than I care to count. 

If there is the recognition of ANOTHER PERSON who is God besides Jesus Christ, then I believe that is idolatry.  The trinity doctrine does not allow for the worship of Jesus Christ as the ONE AND ONLY GOD.  There is ALWAYS at least one "other person" until they remember the HG and then there's that "3rd" guy, too.     If the proclaimed trinitarian worships Jesus Christ as the One and only God of heaven, with NO multiplicity of persons (HE, Jesus Christ, being the Father incarnate), then that person is NOT a trinitarian.  And, again, it is not the title that saves or damns; it is the belief and practice that does.

[Brother Dad]

My problem with the way it is done here can cause people to become confused.  I would always go to my Pastor and go in private with my question least I fuel someone who is rebellious to find something else to fuss about.

Well, someone who's rebellious will always find something to fuss about - their rebelliousness is their problem, and we shouldn't allow it to stifle our discussion.

Our real concern ought to be for those who are young in their faith - and even then, the concern isn't that they might hear more mature saints asking questions and/or disagreeing with one another; it's that some unscrupulous person might try to use the situation to deceive those who don't know any better.  Our concern should be for guarding those who are spiritually immature from such wolves in sheep's clothing.

I think it is wrong when we get into debates where everyone can see them.  As I was growing up I saw people who had questions who would just openly question the Pastor.  As a child I thought that was the Church was to be.  After I grew up I found the need for respecting the ministry.  I never had a problem going to my pastor nor did anyone that came to me and discussed matters.  But I always refused to debate with them.... We learn by questions ask in the proper matter.  But I never had time for people who just wanted to try and show how smart they thought they were.  But, by all means I would encourage everyone to go to your Pastor with a legitmate concern, ask for clarity in what they preach or teach.  All question are handle much better in this manner.

I see a problem with the approach that says questions should always be taken to privately to one's pastor, and never discussed/debated openly: it denies the ministry of ALL the saints, and sets up the pastor as the final arbiter (for the congregation he pastors) of what is and isn't true.

There certainly is a proper manner in which questions should be asked, but it has less to do with protocol followed than with the spirit or attitude with which they are asked.  Is the person asking questions doing so meekly?  With respect for others, with willingness to listen to what they have to say?  With an openness to learning?  To put it another way, are we operating in the Spirit?

Because it's when we start asking - or answering, for that matter - questions when "in the flesh," so to speak, that we get into trouble: pride, arrogance, antagonism, hostility, trying to lord ourselves over each other, etc.  These sorts of things will very quickly come to dominate the conversation when we're not in the Spirit.



Edit: given that this is an internet discussion forum, that adds a whole 'nother element to what I've described above.  It can be much more difficult to discern the spirit in which questions are asked or comments made, when all we have to go on are people's words (and sometimes a few emoticons ).  In normal conversation, we have tone of voice, body language, etc.; online we have none of those things.  We should all be very careful in wording our posts, as well as careful  and patient in trying to understand what someone else is trying to say before responding.

some good points Brother Titushome.  I know how important facial expressions are.  I have a deaf son.  Deaf people will teach us how important it is to see the person in order to get a better understanding of the person and their attitude.  I will add that if it is an open Bible Study I feel it is ok to ask open question.  What I saw growing up was people standing up right in Church and disrupting.