In the thread "Apostolic Truth Questions" Doogie made this statement:
Quote from: doogie on July 11, 2008, 03:51:44 AM
The Bible is more a book to be believed than understood.
(Click on the "Quote from: doogie..." line to read the statement in context.)
Doogie, I think I understand where you're coming from: that even if we don't understand
why the Bible says to do a certain thing, we still ought to be obedient and do what it says. And that while we may strive to understand the reasons behind the command, in the meantime our obedience should not be lacking.
But the flip side of the issue is that we cannot genuinely believe what we do not truly understand. If we obey what we do not understand, then we are merely parroting or mimicking. But the Lord wants more from us and for us than that we should merely do the right thing; He also desires that we should become righteous men, that we should be transformed, that we should conform to His image. Righteous action needs to flow from a righteous heart; otherwise it's empty and meaningless, a mere cartoon of what the Lord desires and expects for us.
What good can it possibly do anyone to obey a command they do not understand? I tried to come up with an example of how obedience devoid of understanding might benefit a person, but I failed. Can you give me an example?
The discussion in which this statement was made is about tithing. So how about tithing? Does a person who tithes even though they don't understand why they're doing it benefit from that action? I don't see how - because they're merely going through the motions, giving their tithe because they're "supposed to," rather than giving from the heart. There must be at least some level of understanding.
Quote from: titushome on July 11, 2008, 02:15:31 PM
What good can it possibly do anyone to obey a command they do not understand? I tried to come up with an example of how obedience devoid of understanding might benefit a person, but I failed. Can you give me an example?
I have heard many people testify that when they read the Bible they did not understand God, but after getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ the Scriptures opened up to them. It is truely from the heart when we obey even if we do not understand why. True love will cause us to act on what God tells us without us having to an understanding of why. I remember as child there were certain people my Dad would not allow me to hang around with. I did not understand why but I obeyed my Dad. Years later when they are all going to jail I was not. Why because I obeyed without understanding.
How many times have we awoke in the middle of the night with the Lord telling us to pray. Maybe He tell us who but not why, maybe He just wants us to pray. Then sometime later we find out the why for our need to pray. God wants us to obey not understand everything.
As far as tithes and offerings even if you don't understand all the working of the plan of God. If you obey Him because you Love Him the understanding may come. Is it better to obey without understanding or disobey without understanding?
I thought this fit in well here.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth
Wouldn't it be accurate to think that a great majority of certain OT laws were nigh un-understandable, either because the spiritual typology was not visible until and after the coming of Christ, or simply because God did not give a reason or understanding for them?
Consider the commands to not boil a kid in his mother's milk, or to not mix certain types of clothes/linens together. We look at those verses, and WE may see a spiritual significance that comes with or through the Holy Spirit. But how much did those laws make sense to those that were commanded to obey, who didn't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit to enlighten their eyes?
I doubt the average Jewish male understood the full rammifications of the festivals, especially in terms of future, Christian salvation and eschatology. But did they need to obey? Yes. Same with the Tabernacle/Temple. Who knew what the Menorah was truly for until Zechariah gaves us some insights? Before John received his revelation of Jesus Christ walking in the midst of the candlesticks. Did they still have to obey in creating it? Yes. Did the priests still have to obey by keeping the oil full and the wicks burning? Yes.
Even Christ's disciples did not understand the psalms and prophets regarding the suffering of the Messiah until Christ opened their understanding. So would a Jew living in 846 B.C. have understood the greater spiritual significance of the sin offering or the burnt offering, having never known, in his lifetime, the fulfillment of those commandments?
The Law is/was the schoolteacher that leads a person to Christ, right? But many Jews died in the faith, having never received the promises, i.e. the fulfillment of the commands that they obeyed. So did they understand what they obeyed by faith, having no tangible fulfillment in their lifetimes of what God was attempting to teach them through the Law?
An example I can give of obedience without understanding comes from my mom. She was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost just over five years ago. Before her salvation, she had already made an appointment with a hairstylist for a hair cut. (No, I'm not going standards, don't worry anyone. Just making a point.) So after her baptism and infilling of the Spirit, she was talking to me about this appointment. She didn't understand anything from 1 Corinthians 11 regarding this topic. She may not have even read it. So, she was going to go ahead with the appointment. I didn't tell her not to. I just told her what it said. I didn't understand it, either. I just told her what it said and asked her if she thought she should go ahead and have her hair cut. We hung up the phone and I didn't know what she would do. But I prayed. She called me back and told me she cancelled the appointment. These were her words:
"I may not understand why it says it, but if it says it, I want to obey it."
My mom didn't understand anything about hair length for women in the Bible for a long time after that. But she obeyed a passage in Scripture by faith, not knowing why or the importance. Her hair has not been cut since. It is long, Biblically speaking and it is a glory to her and covers her head, i.e. her husband, my stepdad. He was saved nine months later.
She honored her God with her obedience, and not her understanding, and God honored and continues to honor her.
When I was baptized, I didn't fully understand the purpose and power of water baptism in Jesus' Name, nor the full meaning of remission of sins. I had no understanding of the New Covenant relationship I would have with God, nor anything of the circumcision made without hands. I didn't understand speaking in tongues. I just knew what it said. I obeyed. God saved me.
Many people refuse to obey so long as they do not understand. Their lack of understanding is (or appears to be) a carnal tool used to justify disobedience.
I for one will obey and rather obey, even if I don't understand. Again, another example: Fasting. Most people don't fast, and even more don't understand it, so they choose not to fast. I've fasted many times throughout my walk with God, and I still don't have a perfected understanding of it. I can quote the verses and I have taught on it, but there is still something about it that eludes me and really, almost everyone it seems like. Still, I obey. When ye fast...
So, I hope this all sheds some light on the original question.
One last thing:
Abraham commanded to sacrifice Isaac. Did Abe understand God and all the meaning behind the commandment? No. He just knew that if Isaac died, God was able to raise Him from the dead. He knew this by faith i.e. by his obedience to God and not by understanding what it would mean in typological Christology.
Good post Raven180. I think doing without understanding the whys is faith at work.
Don't overlook the Disciples either. They believed but continually were asking Jesus what He meant. After the resurrection, Jesus opened their understanding that they might understand the scriptures. Luke 24:45
Acts 8:30-31 - And Philip ran thither to him and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me.
Philip preached Jesus, the eunuch saw water and desired baptism, understanding its meaning & importance. Philip said ok, if you believe.
We can obey w/o understanding, but understanding with believing brings the best results.
OOJ, can you comment on the men just before acts 2:38 that were preached to and their hearts were pricked. did they fully understand what was going on?
then after 2:38 did they fully understand? well they were confused as to what all the chatter in other tongues was.
i dont want to lead this post astray but there is a lot of acts that i dont understand. were they drunk in the spirit as we call it today. i have never known of anyone who i know only speaks english, drink a few beers and speak another language fluently. were they falling, stumbling, and laughing as they were speaking? i got into this on another board a long time ago and i said that this was true and that the reason the men were asking if these men were drunk on new wine was because they were really complaining as they were catching those who were slain in the spirit.
comments? ( i dont have to have a whole understanding of what they were doing at this time only the 2:38 is the verse to retain and beleive, the other is an example.)
Here is a scripture that comes to mind when I see this topic
Acts 17:11 (KJV) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
This is just my opinion but I think there are some things that we may not be able to understand but if we don't , we should make every attempt to.
In the scripture they first did recieve the word but they searched the scripture to make sure it was right
If we don't have an understanding behind what we do or say would that not make it easier to be swayed?
Just my 2 cents for whatever thats worth
Quote from: yosemite on July 13, 2008, 01:02:04 AM
OOJ, can you comment on the men just before acts 2:38 that were preached to and their hearts were pricked. did they fully understand what was going on?
then after 2:38 did they fully understand? well they were confused as to what all the chatter in other tongues was.
i dont want to lead this post astray but there is a lot of acts that i dont understand. were they drunk in the spirit as we call it today. i have never known of anyone who i know only speaks english, drink a few beers and speak another language fluently. were they falling, stumbling, and laughing as they were speaking? i got into this on another board a long time ago and i said that this was true and that the reason the men were asking if these men were drunk on new wine was because they were really complaining as they were catching those who were slain in the spirit.
comments? ( i dont have to have a whole understanding of what they were doing at this time only the 2:38 is the verse to retain and beleive, the other is an example.)
Let's look at what the scripture says: Acts 2:4-17
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues {another language}, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded {troubled in mind}, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? {List of nationalities}... we do hear them speak in our tongues {languages} the wonderful works of God. And they {the crowd} were all amazed, and were in doubt {perplexed}, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking {jeering} said, These men are full of new wine {drunk}. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken {pay attention} to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose {take up or continue a topic; assume}, seeing it is but the third hour of the day {9 A.M.}. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God... No, they did not understand what was going on. This was a totally new experience for them. I do not believe the saints were falling down or turning cartwheels or any of the other supra-exuberant antics we sometimes get into. Notice what the scripture says:
the crowd heard their own language coming from Galilaeans. The Galilaeans were not known for their extended education. They were generally unlearned. Maybe they finished high school. They were simply average, hard working folks.
Thus the shock when these folks came up to foreign Jews speaking, not Hebrew, but their natural language. These simple country people were speaking fluent classical Greek, with the proper accent. And they were making sense! They were speaking of the wonderful works of God. The crowd understood the words spoken, but not the ability of the speakers to speak. It was like... Dude. Can you believe this? Jethro Bodine is speaking Egyptian! That is the effect it was having.
But some mocked and said: they are just drunk. They are spouting gibberish and it just sounds like Greek. It just sounds like Latin. Listen close and you'll hear La la la la la. They are stoned, Dude. Jethro's been in Granny's moonshine!
Peter stands up and clarifies the issue:
Hey, you're wrong. Nobody is drunk. You're the ones claiming drunkenness. Trust me, they're not. It's only 9 o'clock in the morning! Who gets drunk at 9 o'clock in the morning? They're not drunk. What you are seeing and hearing is the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy; how God will pour out the Holy Ghost upon all people. That's what is happening here.
Peter goes on to bring the prophecy around to Jesus. He tells of Him being the long-awaited Messiah looked for by these same Jews. He explains to them the meaning of His life, death, burial, and resurrection. He explains to them the meaning of the Holy Ghost being poured out this day. He explains to them how Jesus is both Lord {God} and Christ {Savior}.
Because they understood his words and meanings regarding Jesus, the crowd responded asking:
What shall we do? Notice they did not ask: What shall we do to be saved?; as we tend to add. The crowd had seen the miraculous change in the Galileans by the Spirit; they heard of the mighty works of God in language they could understand; and they understood Jesus was the Messiah, Lamb of God. The crowd wanted to be a part of this. They wanted this miraculous move of God in their lives. So they asked: What do we do? How does God give this to me?
Peter told them:
Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name {nature, character, authority} of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward {away from God} generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:Kinda long answer, but maybe it opens up a visual. I remember when my son was very young. He was with me one night while I was praying. I was carrying him in my arms and walking around in the church. At some point, the Spirit shifted to tongues. There was not wild tornado blowing around; no helicopter shouting going on; just a calm shift in language, which he noticed. After a couple of minutes, he tapped on me, saying: "Dad. Dad. How do you do that? I want to do it to."
He understood who I was talking to, and he recognized something new to him. It pricked his heart and he wanted to know God like that. The Lord may have let him understand some of it, I don't know.
That's how it was in Acts 2. There was just enough exuberance to attract attention, but not enough to seem like weirdoes. Plain, clear language and not a bunch of muh-muh-muhs or buh-buh-buhs.
I hope that answered the question. I'm in long mode tonight. :pound:
Thank you, everyone, for some terrific posts. You've certainly given me a lot to think about.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 12, 2008, 07:11:52 PM
We can obey w/o understanding, but understanding with believing brings the best results.
I think maybe OOJ's words above best express what I was reaching for in my opening post. Yes, there are times when obedience without understanding is necessary; and it may be that there are some commands we will never understand, but to which we must still be obedient. But obedience
with understanding is always better, when we can get it. Even as we obey, we should strive to understand.
I would very much like to agree, it is better to have an understanding. A lack of understanding does not excuse us from doing what ever God commands. I agree we should seek the face of God as we study the Word that we may get the understanding. I also feel that ever one that has posted on here would agree with that. I know as a Pastor I used this text many times.
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
We should obey, but we should seek the understanding so that we might convince others of the truth. When I was growing up I was told I could not do certain things, when I ask why I was told because the Church teaches against them. When I grew in God this began to bother me. So I started studying the Word of the Lord to see what God taught concerning these matters. I will continue to study and grow until at which point the Lord calls me home.
(NOT TO BRING UP AN ATHEISTIC ARGUMENT BUT TO STAY ON TOPIC AND ADD MY 2 CENTS)
Understanding for me has just made me turn atheist, and has caused disbelief. So maybe if you want to be a christian, to believe and have faith and leave it in the back of your mind when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of the truth.
Understanding is to a point and then there is a large gap for faith only. If you want to believe. BELIEVE. Otherwise you'll be :frustrated:
Quote from: johndoherty on July 16, 2008, 12:59:29 PM
(NOT TO BRING UP AN ATHEISTIC ARGUMENT BUT TO STAY ON TOPIC AND ADD MY 2 CENTS)
Understanding for me has just made me turn atheist, and has caused disbelief. So maybe if you want to be a christian, to believe and have faith and leave it in the back of your mind when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of the truth.
Understanding is to a point and then there is a large gap for faith only. If you want to believe. BELIEVE. Otherwise you'll be :frustrated:
That's a good point. I am reminded of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and asked about eternal life.
He understood Jesus' answer.
He did not believe and went away :frustrated:.
It all comes down to MY WILL vs HIS WILL. For humanity: to lose is to win and to win is to lose.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 16, 2008, 01:16:19 PM
Quote from: johndoherty on July 16, 2008, 12:59:29 PM
(NOT TO BRING UP AN ATHEISTIC ARGUMENT BUT TO STAY ON TOPIC AND ADD MY 2 CENTS)
Understanding for me has just made me turn atheist, and has caused disbelief. So maybe if you want to be a christian, to believe and have faith and leave it in the back of your mind when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of the truth.
Understanding is to a point and then there is a large gap for faith only. If you want to believe. BELIEVE. Otherwise you'll be :frustrated:
That's a good point. I am reminded of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and asked about eternal life. He understood Jesus' answer. He did not believe and went away :frustrated:.
It all comes down to MY WILL vs HIS WILL. For humanity: to lose is to win and to win is to lose.
In the case of the rich young ruler, he understood that Jesus was asking him to choose between serving God and serving wealth. He could not give up his riches, so he walked away from Jesus. Like OOJ said, it's about
my will vs. His will.
But I don't think that was exactly Doherty's point: it seems to me he's saying that if you want to serve God, you're better off with blind obedience - because if you understand too much, you may start asking too many questions, and end up walking away from God if they aren't answered satisfactorily.
It is my opinion that belief is not supposed to be easy; belief is supposed to be, at times at least, :frustrated:. Belief is to be engaged. Jacob was renamed Israel because he wrestled with God.
Quote from: titushome on July 16, 2008, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on July 16, 2008, 01:16:19 PM
Quote from: johndoherty on July 16, 2008, 12:59:29 PM
(NOT TO BRING UP AN ATHEISTIC ARGUMENT BUT TO STAY ON TOPIC AND ADD MY 2 CENTS)
Understanding for me has just made me turn atheist, and has caused disbelief. So maybe if you want to be a christian, to believe and have faith and leave it in the back of your mind when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of the truth.
Understanding is to a point and then there is a large gap for faith only. If you want to believe. BELIEVE. Otherwise you'll be :frustrated:
That's a good point. I am reminded of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and asked about eternal life. He understood Jesus' answer. He did not believe and went away :frustrated:.
It all comes down to MY WILL vs HIS WILL. For humanity: to lose is to win and to win is to lose.
In the case of the rich young ruler, he understood that Jesus was asking him to choose between serving God and serving wealth. He could not give up his riches, so he walked away from Jesus. Like OOJ said, it's about my will vs. His will.
But I don't think that was exactly Doherty's point: it seems to me he's saying that if you want to serve God, you're better off with blind obedience - because if you understand too much, you may start asking too many questions, and end up walking away from God if they aren't answered satisfactorily.
It is my opinion that belief is not supposed to be easy; belief is supposed to be, at times at least, :frustrated:. Belief is to be engaged. Jacob was renamed Israel because he wrestled with God.
That makes sense.
I stand by my quote "The Bible Is More A Book To Be Believed Than Understood."
Obviously, a certain level of understanding is intrinsic to belief.
There are many who profess to "understand" scripture that do not really believe it. Or, they fail to "correctly divide" the Word of God, but instead do as Peter warned in 2 Peter 3: 15-16:
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
My point in making the statement in it's original context is the same as what I will say now - namely that there are some who love to argue and defend THEIR interpretation of a particular scripture or topic, but in their efforts to appear "theological" miss out on simple truth, emanating from the very scriptures they are "wresting" to their own demise.
Shalom.
Quote from: doogie on September 13, 2008, 05:27:49 AM
I stand by my quote "The Bible Is More A Book To Be Believed Than Understood."
Obviously, a certain level of understanding is intrinsic to belief.
There are many who profess to "understand" scripture that do not really believe it. Or, they fail to "correctly divide" the Word of God, but instead do as Peter warned in 2 Peter 3: 15-16:
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
My point in making the statement in it's original context is the same as what I will say now - namely that there are some who love to argue and defend THEIR interpretation of a particular scripture or topic, but in their efforts to appear "theological" miss out on simple truth, emanating from the very scriptures they are "wresting" to their own demise.
Shalom.
Which is why it is so very important for those who believe to understand. If "I" believe the Bible is true, then "I" will ask the Lord to open my understanding {which scripture records Him doing} and give "me" the wisdom to discern proper division of the Word. If "I" understand what "I" believe, then it is a far simpler task to ferret out and recognize the carnal interpretations and errors.
Otherwise, "I" remain trapped in religious relationship wherein "I" depend solely upon "another's" {THE MINISTRY} understanding. "I" am no better off than all the God-fearing-people who lived before Jesus came.
I refuse to do that anymore. I must understand as well as believe.
Let me make this real clear, again:
Understanding is intrinsic to belief. How can I belive if I do not have at least a basic understanding of what I proport to believe?
My comments are directed toward those delusional souls who wrest and twist scripture to fit their world viiew.
While I believe we all must study and know the scripture to be saved, that does not diminish the role of a pastor in our lives.
Quote from: doogie on September 13, 2008, 06:49:20 PM
Let me make this real clear, again:
Understanding is intrinsic to belief. How can I belive if I do not have at least a basic understanding of what I proport to believe?
My comments are directed toward those delusional souls who wrest and twist scripture to fit their world viiew.
While I believe we all must study and know the scripture to be saved, that does not diminish the role of a pastor in our lives.
Oh, ok.
A pastor is helpful in our lives. Yet, how long does the role hold importance? Doesn't scripture tell us that you do not need any man to teach you, but the Lord will teach you? Doesn't scripture tell us that the role of pastor is a gift to the Body to help bring to maturity in Christ?
Seems like the role of ministry diminishes sharply. If it doesn't, isn't that signaling immaturity and continual need for milk? Not counting revealing an unscriptural dependence upon a religious system.
Uhmmm, ok.
My point in making the statement in it's original context is the same as what I will say now - namely that there are some who love to argue and defend THEIR interpretation of a particular scripture or topic, but in their efforts to appear "theological" miss out on simple truth, emanating from the very scriptures they are "wresting" to their own demise.
You're pastor will give account for you're soul, that's how long his influence will be in you're life.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 13, 2008, 07:50:32 PM
You're pastor will give account for you're soul, that's how long his influence will be in you're life.
Scripture?
Yes,
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17
Need more?
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 12:58:56 AM
Yes,
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17
Need more?
Sure. And examples in scripture.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 13, 2008, 06:58:32 PM
Quote from: doogie on September 13, 2008, 06:49:20 PM
Let me make this real clear, again:
Understanding is intrinsic to belief. How can I belive if I do not have at least a basic understanding of what I proport to believe?
My comments are directed toward those delusional souls who wrest and twist scripture to fit their world viiew.
While I believe we all must study and know the scripture to be saved, that does not diminish the role of a pastor in our lives.
Oh, ok.
A pastor is helpful in our lives. Yet, how long does the role hold importance? Doesn't scripture tell us that you do not need any man to teach you, but the Lord will teach you? Doesn't scripture tell us that the role of pastor is a gift to the Body to help bring to maturity in Christ?
Seems like the role of ministry diminishes sharply. If it doesn't, isn't that signaling immaturity and continual need for milk? Not counting revealing an unscriptural dependence upon a religious system.
Spiritual innmaturity and a continual need for milk does not apply to saints and preachers alike that have spent years under the direction of a pastor, on their knees, interceeding for the lost and the hurting of this world, and should not be included in the same sentence out of respect and reverence. ! I thank God for the so called "spiritual innmature" that have sent many prayers on my behalf, touching God for me when I did not even know who he was! Had it not been for those, I would not be where I am today. Many of you're saints that have been in the same church and under the same Pastor for years are some of the most stable and mature people in the Lord, who's prayers reach heaven long before the one's of us who think we are beyond teaching and submission. One more thing, Pastors are not one of the spiritual gifts, the Pastorship is a God appointed office.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
The epsitles are full of Paul telling the saints that they are to hold fast the faith and teachings that they have been taught by him, so when that day comes he will not be sad but rather joyful when he presents them to Christ. You will find all the examples you need there - I just gave you scripture.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 01:29:44 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 13, 2008, 06:58:32 PM
Quote from: doogie on September 13, 2008, 06:49:20 PM
Let me make this real clear, again:
Understanding is intrinsic to belief. How can I belive if I do not have at least a basic understanding of what I proport to believe?
My comments are directed toward those delusional souls who wrest and twist scripture to fit their world viiew.
While I believe we all must study and know the scripture to be saved, that does not diminish the role of a pastor in our lives.
Oh, ok.
A pastor is helpful in our lives. Yet, how long does the role hold importance? Doesn't scripture tell us that you do not need any man to teach you, but the Lord will teach you? Doesn't scripture tell us that the role of pastor is a gift to the Body to help bring to maturity in Christ?
Seems like the role of ministry diminishes sharply. If it doesn't, isn't that signaling immaturity and continual need for milk? Not counting revealing an unscriptural dependence upon a religious system.
Spiritual innmaturity and a continual need for milk does not apply to saints and preachers alike that have spent years under the direction of a pastor, on their knees, interceeding for the lost and the hurting of this world ! I thank God for the so called "spiritual innmature" that have sent many prayers on my behalf, had it not been for those, I would not where I am today. Pastors are not one of the spiritual gifts, the Pastorship is a God appointed office.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Spiritual innmaturity and a continual need for milk does not apply to saints and preachers alike that have spent years under the direction of a pastor, on their knees, interceeding for the lost and the hurting of this worldReally? Then why would Paul say to an established church membership - you should be teachers and eaters of meat, yet I still have to give you milk?
Spending time under someones direction and praying for the lost does not automatically equate to maturity. Scripture says these are to be used
until coming to perfection {maturity} of the fullness of Christ {a son} and we be no more children tossed about with carnal doctrine of man, but grow up into Christ where He is head {authority/leader}?
Pastors are not one of the spiritual gifts, the Pastorship is a God appointed office.Ephesians 4:8,11 - When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. And he gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers. According to this.... the gifts are not offices.
Remember when Jesus said: the Gentiles exercise authority over one another but it shall not be so among you? Remember, Jesus is the head and we are the body. Historically, the "office" began after the council of Nicea when the pagans infiltrated the Church. Take a search to see the origin of "pastorship". In fact, the Nicolatians practiced a division between pulpit and pew. The Church didn't start out that way.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 01:35:17 AM
The epsitles are full of Paul telling the saints that they are to hold fast the faith and teachings that they have been taught by him, so when that day comes he will not be sad but rather joyful when he presents them to Christ. You will find all the examples you need there - I just gave you scripture.
There is a difference between submission to hearing and considering a teaching, and subservience to another person. I hold to and consider Paul's words also, but I am not subservient to Paul or anyone who teaches his words. Jesus said He was the Head. Jesus said the HG will teach you. We have a tendency to abdicate personal responsibility to anyone but ourselves. We want the pulpit to hold all the consequences. That way, it's not our fault if the teaching was wrong.
We submit from strength and not weakness. We submit as siblings and not underlings. We are all responsibile for what we say to everyone. That's why we must speak only what the Father says. That's why we go back and confirm every teaching and not take anything blindly. In the OT, the priesthood mediated God and Man. In the NT, Jesus mediates between God and Man. We have simply rebuilt the priesthood.
Something to consider: Philip and the Ethiopian. Philip brought this man to salvation and then disappeared.
The Ethiopian then went back on his own. Who "pastored" him?
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 12:58:56 AM
Yes,
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17
Need more?
When you look at the meaning of "obey" it says: convince, pacify, conciliate, assent {to authority}, rely, agree, believe, have confidence, trust, yield.
We are to have confidence and trust in those gifted to lead. Your soul is your mind and emotions. Anyone given as a gift to the Body will give account to the Lord for what they teach and fill saints heads with. Feeding leavened bread is unprofitable to the Body. In fact, the primary reason most of the Church still needs milk, is due to the trust placed in "the ministry". One of the primary reasons for apostasy is due to leavened bread dished out from pulpits/leaders we trusted.
We cannot blindly follow or do w/o question, what anyone says. Jesus is our head. The HG is our teacher. We have to study to show ourselves approved and hide the word in our heart. We have to be open to the voice of the Lord for our own lives and work out our own salvation. We have a tendency to make the gift greater than the Giver.
Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 02:38:25 AM
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 12:58:56 AM
Yes,
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17
Need more?
When you look at the meaning of "obey" it says: convince, pacify, conciliate, assent {to authority}, rely, agree, believe, have confidence, trust, yield.
We are to have confidence and trust in those gifted to lead. Your soul is your mind and emotions. Anyone given as a gift to the Body will give account to the Lord for what they teach and fill saints heads with. Feeding leavened bread is unprofitable to the Body. In fact, the primary reason most of the Church still needs milk, is due to the trust placed in "the ministry". One of the primary reasons for apostasy is due to leavened bread dished out from pulpits/leaders we trusted.
We cannot blindly follow or do w/o question, what anyone says. Jesus is our head. The HG is our teacher. We have to study to show ourselves approved and hide the word in our heart. We have to be open to the voice of the Lord for our own lives and work out our own salvation. We have a tendency to make the gift greater than the Giver.
Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.
I gave you scripture earlier, plainly telling you that there are one's here that will answer for you're soul. I'm sorry you find it so hard to understand. I also am sorry that you feel like Pastors are simply our equals - that says a lot about how you feel about submission to proper athority, rest assured God will speak to a Pastor about a situation that he will not include me or you in!
No one says to follow anyone blindly, try the spirits and see if they are of God! Jesus is our teacher, however, at this point he uses Pastors to feed his flock, he will teach us all things when he returns.
The Holy Ghost uses the Foolishness of Preaching "ie" (By Man)to save those which are lost.
The primary reason that the church still needs milk is because they have not learned how to be subjective to God's word and understand that the bible tells us to be subject to those who have rule over us, for they watch for our souls and will give an account, either in rejoicing or sadness, which will be unprofitable. They are a stiff necked people who will rebel at the simple teaching of God's word and be led by their own devices down a path of distruction beause of their unbelief in Gods infalliable word.
Please tell me, if we are all equal, who then is the scripture referring to when it says "be subject to those who have rule over us because they will give account for our souls?
To tell me that you have no athority over you in the Kingdom of Christ except Jesus himself is against ALL scriptural teaching.
There are many wolves in sheeps clothing, it is our responsibility to know the word well enough to avoid them, not blame the ministry for our short comings.
One more time, please show me where the Pastors, teachers or ministers fall under the classification of spiritual gifts?
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 03:04:49 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 02:38:25 AM
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 12:58:56 AM
Yes,
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17
Need more?
When you look at the meaning of "obey" it says: convince, pacify, conciliate, assent {to authority}, rely, agree, believe, have confidence, trust, yield.
We are to have confidence and trust in those gifted to lead. Your soul is your mind and emotions. Anyone given as a gift to the Body will give account to the Lord for what they teach and fill saints heads with. Feeding leavened bread is unprofitable to the Body. In fact, the primary reason most of the Church still needs milk, is due to the trust placed in "the ministry". One of the primary reasons for apostasy is due to leavened bread dished out from pulpits/leaders we trusted.
We cannot blindly follow or do w/o question, what anyone says. Jesus is our head. The HG is our teacher. We have to study to show ourselves approved and hide the word in our heart. We have to be open to the voice of the Lord for our own lives and work out our own salvation. We have a tendency to make the gift greater than the Giver.
Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.
I gave you scripture earlier, plainly telling you that there are one's here that will answer for you're soul. I'm sorry you find it so hard to understand. I also am sorry that you feel like Pastors are simply our equals - that says a lot about how you feel about submission to proper athority, rest assured God will speak to a Pastor about a situation that he will not include me or you in!
No one says to follow anyone blindly, try the spirits and see if they are of God! Jesus is our teacher, however, at this point he uses Pastors to feed his flock, he will teach us all things when he returns.
The Holy Ghost uses the Foolishness of Preaching "ie" (By Man)to save those which are lost.
The primary reason that the church still needs milk is because they have not learned how to be subjective to God's word and understand that the bible tells us to be subject to those who have rule over us, for they watch for our souls and will give an account, either in rejoicing or sadness, which will be unprofitable. They are a stiff necked people who will rebel at the simple teaching of God's word!
To tell me that you have no athority over you in the Kingdom of Christ except Jesus himself is against ALL scriptural teaching.
There are many wolves in sheeps clothing, it is our responsibility to know the word well enough to avoid them, not blame the ministry for our short comings.
One more time, please show me where the Pastors, teachers or ministers fall under the classification of spiritual gifts?
OK.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 03:04:49 AM
One more time, please show me where the Pastors, teachers or ministers fall under the classification of spiritual gifts?
Ephesians 4:8,11 - When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. And he gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers.
The "some" refers to the gifts Jesus gave men.
Jesus destroyed the priesthood office at Calvary. Why in the world would he re-establish it afterwards?
You don't have to answer that. You already have. :teeth:
In 1 Cor. 12: 7-12 the spiritual gifts are listed, I have read this several times and still have not found Pastor listed as a sprititual gift!
Destroyed the Priesthood? I don't think so! "See below"
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
The gift Jesus gave to men was the mercy he showed in providing us with Pastors, Apostles, Ministers and such to help us escape eternal damnation, not to use as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!
Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance. They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
As Scott so well pointed out on another thread there are others that read what we write. If we allow people to get us into what they like to call mature teachings, which is just some easy way to rebel against the plan of God, then people see that Apostolics cannot get along one with another. I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over. I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul. Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 03:22:07 AM
In 1 Cor. 12: 7-12 the spiritual gifts are listed, I have read this several times and still have not found Pastor listed as a sprititual gift!
Destroyed the Priesthood? I don't think so! "See below"
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
The gift Jesus gave to men was the mercy he showed in providing us with Pastors, Apostles, Ministers and such to help us escape eternal damnation, not to use as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!
I Cor is talking about gifts given to the Body as manifestations of the Spirit. Ephesians is talking about the gifts Christ gave us upon leaving earth. Two totally different things.
The priesthood abolished is the priesthood mediating between God and man. There is no human {pastoral} High Priest. Jesus is the High Priest and we are all equally priests unto Him. There is no heirarchy in the NT priesthood.
Ephesians teaches us that the purpose of the ministry gifts is to bring us to maturity in Christ, that we be no more children. Children need milk. A 40 year old saint still suckling on milk has a problem. And there
should come a day when individual dependency upon any minister/ministry becomes "as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!" Jesus repeatedly told us the HG will guide and teach us, needing no dependency upon Man.
After all, in the natural, don't we mature to the point of not needing the minutae input of others? Do we not determine
when we are capable of facing life on our own? Why would spiritual life be any different?
I totally agree Bro Dad, and have done this in a spirit of love. That maybe by some inspiration of the Holy Ghost truth might be revealed. At no time has this conversation been intended to do more than to prompt the mind to at least be subjected to the true word of God (the word will not return void).
I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first but felt compelled to reach out one more time. All souls are worth that "one more reasoning session". If any one discerned my conversation, then they would understand that it was not for the sake of an argument, but for the reaching of those who need a further explaining of the truth.
I truly apologize to anyone if the wrong impression was given.. It was not my intention.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 03:59:58 AM
I totally agree Bro Dad, and have done this in a spirit of love. That maybe by some inspiration of the Holy Ghost truth might be revealed. At no time has this conversation been intended to do more than to prompt the mind to at least be subjected to the true word of God (the word will not return void).
I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first but felt compelled to reach out one more time. All souls are worth that "one more reasoning session". If any one discerned my conversation, then they would understand that it was not for the sake of an argument, but for the reaching of those who need a further explaining of the truth.
I truly apologize to anyone if the wrong impression was given.. It was not my intention.
Oh no Brother RS in no way did I mean you were arguing, I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will. But thank you just the same for your concern and apology. I sent you a pm.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 03:26:01 AM
Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance. They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
As Scott so well pointed out on another thread there are others that read what we write. If we allow people to get us into what they like to call mature teachings, which is just some easy way to rebel against the plan of God, then people see that Apostolics cannot get along one with another. I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over. I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul. Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.
Wondering when you'd turn up.
You want to say something about me..... say it to my face.
You have a question.... ask.
You have a comment..... post.
Otherwise, keep it to yourself.
Rattlesnake
Thanks for the conversation. It was nice.
I'm calling it a night before I say something I shouldnt.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 03:59:58 AM
I totally agree Bro Dad, and have done this in a spirit of love. That maybe by some inspiration of the Holy Ghost truth might be revealed. At no time has this conversation been intended to do more than to prompt the mind to at least be subjected to the true word of God (the word will not return void).
I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first but felt compelled to reach out one more time. All souls are worth that "one more reasoning session". If any one discerned my conversation, then they would understand that it was not for the sake of an argument, but for the reaching of those who need a further explaining of the truth.
I truly apologize to anyone if the wrong impression was given.. It was not my intention.
:thumbsup2: (IMO) you were right on <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZSman000%2526i%253D12%252F12%255F9%255F10%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">(http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_9_10.gif)
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 03:58:52 AM
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 03:22:07 AM
In 1 Cor. 12: 7-12 the spiritual gifts are listed, I have read this several times and still have not found Pastor listed as a sprititual gift!
Destroyed the Priesthood? I don't think so! "See below"
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
The gift Jesus gave to men was the mercy he showed in providing us with Pastors, Apostles, Ministers and such to help us escape eternal damnation, not to use as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!
I Cor is talking about gifts given to the Body as manifestations of the Spirit. Ephesians is talking about the gifts Christ gave us upon leaving earth. Two totally different things.
The priesthood abolished is the priesthood mediating between God and man. There is no human {pastoral} High Priest. Jesus is the High Priest and we are all equally priests unto Him. There is no heirarchy in the NT priesthood.
Ephesians teaches us that the purpose of the ministry gifts is to bring us to maturity in Christ, that we be no more children. Children need milk. A 40 year old saint still suckling on milk has a problem. And there should come a day when individual dependency upon any minister/ministry becomes "as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!" Jesus repeatedly told us the HG will guide and teach us, needing no dependency upon Man.
After all, in the natural, don't we mature to the point of not needing the minutae input of others? Do we not determine when we are capable of facing life on our own? Why would spiritual life be any different?
In keeping the spirit of good faith, I will bow out of this conversation. I am truly waiting on the day to come when Jesus will himself will teach us all things. Until then, I will continue to follow the Holy Ghost and the inspired men of God sent my way to help advance my walk and advancement in the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. I trust you will do the same.
This conversation was not intended to as an argument, but simply a discussion and I will leave it as such! May the love of the Lord Jesus Christ abound in all our hearts until the day of his coming.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 04:05:52 AM
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 03:26:01 AM
Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance. They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
As Scott so well pointed out on another thread there are others that read what we write. If we allow people to get us into what they like to call mature teachings, which is just some easy way to rebel against the plan of God, then people see that Apostolics cannot get along one with another. I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over. I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul. Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.
Wondering when you'd turn up.
You want to say something about me..... say it to my face.
You have a question.... ask.
You have a comment..... post.
Otherwise, keep it to yourself.
I used they and did not call names for that would not be nice. And I can assure there is more than just one snake in the grass.
Thanks Yosemite...
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 04:12:18 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 04:05:52 AM
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 03:26:01 AM
Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance. They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
As Scott so well pointed out on another thread there are others that read what we write. If we allow people to get us into what they like to call mature teachings, which is just some easy way to rebel against the plan of God, then people see that Apostolics cannot get along one with another. I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over. I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul. Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.
Wondering when you'd turn up.
You want to say something about me..... say it to my face.
You have a question.... ask.
You have a comment..... post.
Otherwise, keep it to yourself.
I used they and did not call names for that would not be nice. And I can assure there is more than just one snake in the grass.
To approach a Brother in the Lord in such a manner as you just did is very disrespectful to say the least. I do not think it necessary to respond in such a manner as it shows what true type of spirit you walk in.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 04:03:37 AM
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 03:59:58 AM
I totally agree Bro Dad, and have done this in a spirit of love. That maybe by some inspiration of the Holy Ghost truth might be revealed. At no time has this conversation been intended to do more than to prompt the mind to at least be subjected to the true word of God (the word will not return void).
I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first but felt compelled to reach out one more time. All souls are worth that "one more reasoning session". If any one discerned my conversation, then they would understand that it was not for the sake of an argument, but for the reaching of those who need a further explaining of the truth.
I truly apologize to anyone if the wrong impression was given.. It was not my intention.
Oh no Brother RS in no way did I mean you were arguing, I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will. But thank you just the same for your concern and apology. I sent you a pm.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 04:06:32 AM
Rattlesnake
Thanks for the conversation. It was nice.
I'm calling it a night before I say something I shouldnt.
Um, too late for that....
Great posts, Rattlesnake & Brother Dad!
Quote from: doogie on September 14, 2008, 05:35:23 AM
Great posts, Rattlesnake & Brother Dad!
May God richly bless you and yours.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 02:38:25 AM
Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.
Jerry,
Do you not think the example Paul gave us, not only of his authority over the saints but the authority he appointed (elders, Timothy, etc), shows us that there are those "above us" and to whom we should be in subjection? I sense the feeling here is that you are a rebel, striking out on your own, with no accountability, even if you claim to be an apostle, pastor, or whatever.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 04:05:52 AM
Wondering when you'd turnup.
ohhhhhh! bro dad we got a new nick name fer ya! "turnup"!! hahahahaha
Just loving God and standing for truth. It is so awesome to be a child of God.
Gentlemen,
Good afternoon! Hope all is well in Cyber Space today.
Yes all is well here and we had an awesome service this morning and I am expecting one tonight.
We had an awesome service this morning also, tonight, I get to hear my youngest son preach!!! He is 22.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 07:22:23 PM
We had an awesome service this morning also, tonight, I get to hear my youngest son preach!!! He is 22.
Awesome, tonight I won't get to hear my son preach. He Pastors the Church I started and will be preaching somewhere else. Billy is 28 and is an awesome preacher. I am very proud of him as I am RS is of his son.
Both of my sons are Preachers, the youngest has been preaching for a couple of years, my oldest, (23) just accepted the call. Man, God has been so good to me..
Prasie God He is so good. I have t0ree kids and they are all in Church today. And they love truth. My youngest is 26 my oldest 3just turned 30.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 07:17:51 PM
Gentlemen,
Good afternoon! Hope all is well in Cyber Space today.
all is well here. had a great service this morning. great altar call even if there was no infilling. i expect there to be another great service tonight. *hope,hope*
It's coming Yosemite, it's coming.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 07:34:34 PM
It's coming Yosemite, it's coming.
nervous! anxious!! <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZSman000%2526i%253D4%252F4%255F6%255F200v%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">(http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_200v.gif)
Just get in there tonight and worship god with all you have.
Thank him for it.........
<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZSman000%2526i%253D36%252F36%255F7%255F8%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">(http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_8.gif)
Oh, boy - here we go again. A few more rounds of misunderstanding. :-?
I haven't read anything from anyone to suggest that we don't need pastors, teachers, or leadership within the Church. One of the most important points made - with which I agree - is that Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone, is the Head of the Church. Under Him, we are all equal, and we are all priests. We are to submit to one another; we are accountable to one another.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 04:11:11 AM
I am truly waiting on the day to come when Jesus will himself will teach us all things. Until then, I will continue to follow the Holy Ghost and the inspired men of God sent my way to help advance my walk and advancement in the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. I trust you will do the same.
Brother, you need not wait: the day is today. Jesus Himself
does teach us all things - or desires to - via the Holy Spirit. He also uses anointed men and women, and the Scriptures, but His greatest desire for us as far as learning goes is that we learn to communicate with Him directly.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 03:26:01 AM
Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance. They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.
I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over. I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul. Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 14, 2008, 03:59:58 AM
I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first....
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 04:03:37 AM
...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 04:12:18 AM
I used they and did not call names for that would not be nice. And I can assure there is more than just one snake in the grass.
I'm so sorry for some of the comments made in this thread. It breaks my heart to see brothers display such attitudes.
And in case you're wondering why I don't also call out these comments -
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 04:05:52 AM
You want to say something about me..... say it to my face.
You have a question.... ask.
You have a comment..... post.
Otherwise, keep it to yourself.
- it's because I agree with OOJ. If you disagree with what he's written, then say so.
Derisive comments and egregious accusations directed toward thinly veiled targets are not becoming of God's people, nor are they constructive ways to conduct a conversation - even one in which you couldn't disagree more strongly.
Saying you're "not going to call names" is not only an excuse for applying labels without explicitly naming names, it's also failing to directly engage the person with whom you disagree. If you don't wish to engage OOJ directly, then as he said, you're better off keeping your comments to yourself.
Thanks and God bless.
There has and always will be those who try to cause trouble. To point out a fact is not pointing a finger. If OOJ, you or anyone else falls into the facts that are called out I am sorry. As I pointed out to OOJ, I did not call his name, your name or anyone else's. The fact remains, there are those who post for the sake of arguing. I refuse to attack anyone.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 15, 2008, 03:25:23 PM
I refuse to attack anyone.
How is an oblique reference to OOJ as a "snake in the grass"
NOT an attack?
Review again the statements below:
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 03:26:01 AM
They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance....
...people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over....
...Some people feel they have out grown God's plan....
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 04:03:37 AM
...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.
Such statements can be valid criticisms - but only if you directly address them to the person(s) about whom they are concerned, and only if you back up your criticisms with evidence. Phrasing these statements in such a way as to make it perfectly clear whom you're talking about, yet refusing to directly address that person, is certainly nothing less than an attack.
You can deny they're attacks if you want to, but that's still what they are.
Quote from: titushome on September 15, 2008, 08:12:30 PM
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 15, 2008, 03:25:23 PM
I refuse to attack anyone.
How is an oblique reference to OOJ as a "snake in the grass" NOT an attack?
Review again the statements below:
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 03:26:01 AM
They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance....
...people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over....
...Some people feel they have out grown God's plan....
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 04:03:37 AM
...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.
Such statements can be valid criticisms - but only if you directly address them to the person(s) about whom they are concerned, and only if you back up your criticisms with evidence. Phrasing these statements in such a way as to make it perfectly clear whom you're talking about, yet refusing to directly address that person, is certainly nothing less than an attack.
You can deny they're attacks if you want to, but that's still what they are.
Maybe OOJ should be the one defending himself and the offensive doctrines he has postulated. I have read VERY recent posts from OOJ that embrace the very teachings that Brother Dad referred to. If not overtly implying that those who need a pastor are "weak and in need of milk" he at least alluded to it. This is offensive, and contrary to sound NT doctrine as taught by the Apostle Paul.
Words do have meaning and consequence - they could lead an eternal soul astray.
Just my two cents...
Quote from: OGIA on September 14, 2008, 06:49:01 PM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 14, 2008, 02:38:25 AM
Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.
Jerry,
Do you not think the example Paul gave us, not only of his authority over the saints but the authority he appointed (elders, Timothy, etc), shows us that there are those "above us" and to whom we should be in subjection? I sense the feeling here is that you are a rebel, striking out on your own, with no accountability, even if you claim to be an apostle, pastor, or whatever.
"even if you claim to be an apostle, pastor, or whatever" :laughhard:
This is hilarious – even though you didn't mean it to be! I choose – whatever.
***************************************************
Scripture records no pastorship or leadership – as currently practiced and accepted – anywhere in the entire NT. History records a first mention by Ignatius after 100 AD and put into excepted practice around 250 AD. {Just about the time of the forming of the RCC}. The writings and advising of Paul regarding elders is intended to be in an overseeing context. Such were the experienced and wiser members of a congregation – the mature saints if you will. They helped to keep things in order. Remember how Paul admonished the Corinthians that all should not speak in tongues at the same time? All should not give a message at the same time? Elders kept things in order: akin to older siblings watching over the younger and correcting their exuberance. I have 8 elder siblings and none of them are my boss. They watched over me when younger, but Daddy was king.
Same with the church: Christ is the head. He rules and orchestrates His Body via the Holy Ghost. His Body comes together in submission to His guidance. Pastors, teachers, and other ministry are there to share with the Body things of God. No one is there to lord-it-over another. There is no elite priesthood in the Body of Christ. All in attendance are free to participate. How unlike today's "church" where the Body sits quietly in the pews and hear the oration of one or two men. The Bible doesn't teach that.
I am subject to you in the same manner I am subject to society. If we were having a conversation, I would submit to you voicing some input. I would submit attentively to your knowledge of a subject I knew little about. If you wanted to teach me something, I would submit to your expertise. Does that make you "above" me? Does that give you authority over my life? No, of course not. It just means I yielded to your input in that situation.
There are so many others better suited to explaining this. One whom I've gleaned from is Frank Viola. Do a web-search or look at the local bookstore. I think you will find him informative.
(continued)
Rebel with no accountability huh? I can see where that comes from. In relation to today's accepted, organized religious church – I am. I'm against much of what it does. Not everything though. See, the Body of Christ is in bondage to spiritual Babylon. It is chained and brainwashed into believing in another Jesus, and practicing another gospel. There is such a mix of leavened and unleavened bread. Revelation continuously warns us to come out of there. And it's hard to do so. That's why a lot of you here get so angry at what I'm saying. I did too, at first.
No one is greater or lesser than anyone else. I have bound myself to accountability to Jesus Christ via the Holy Ghost and the Word of God. I no longer bind myself to the absolute authority of any unscriptural system. Submit to counsel, respect, and input from the Lord? Sure, but not unto elevation above everyone else. I won't do that ever again.
The time has come for the Body of Christ to come out of Babylon and enter the wilderness. That is where true dependence upon the Lord begins. He is trying to prepare us for the darkness upon the horizon. Soon, church as we know it will be a thing of the past. How many then will be able to stand? How many then will be able to hear the voice of the Lord for themselves? I think we should get ready.
Quote from: doogie on September 15, 2008, 11:12:33 PM
Quote from: titushome on September 15, 2008, 08:12:30 PM
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 15, 2008, 03:25:23 PM
I refuse to attack anyone.
How is an oblique reference to OOJ as a "snake in the grass" NOT an attack?
Review again the statements below:
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 03:26:01 AM
They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance....
...people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over....
...Some people feel they have out grown God's plan....
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 14, 2008, 04:03:37 AM
...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.
Such statements can be valid criticisms - but only if you directly address them to the person(s) about whom they are concerned, and only if you back up your criticisms with evidence. Phrasing these statements in such a way as to make it perfectly clear whom you're talking about, yet refusing to directly address that person, is certainly nothing less than an attack.
You can deny they're attacks if you want to, but that's still what they are.
Maybe OOJ should be the one defending himself and the offensive doctrines he has postulated. I have read VERY recent posts from OOJ that embrace the very teachings that Brother Dad referred to. If not overtly implying that those who need a pastor are "weak and in need of milk" he at least alluded to it. This is offensive, and contrary to sound NT doctrine as taught by the Apostle Paul.
Words do have meaning and consequence - they could lead an eternal soul astray.
Just my two cents...
If not overtly implying that those who need a pastor are "weak and in need of milk" he at least alluded to it.Totally misunderstood. The reference was to a 40 year-old saint still suckling on milk being immature. Not talking about natural age, but spiritual. I know many such persons who still can't make a decision w/o running it thru the pastor. They hear the voice of God as nothing more than "thunder", remaining scared and clueless to what's going on. Such are very shallow in their relationship and need to grow up!
People get offended when introduced to a concept that challenges established belief. I offend you because I do not regurgitate the status quo Apostolic/Pentecostal doctrine. I offend you because I challenge you to read the book for yourself and cut the apron strings of religion. I offend you because I dare to equate myself with "the ministry". I offend you because in the deep recesses of your heart you wonder if I'm right. I offend you because you've dared to consider this or something similar yourself. I offend you because you love God and you want more than what "church" can give.
I offend you because I offer freedom. Not freedom from the church, but freedom from religion. Freedom to seek and serve our King and His Body in ways not dreamed of, nor offered by the status quo. Freedom to know God will and does speak to us individually and guides us individually for His purposes. Freedom to know the Church is bigger than any denomination. Yes that is offensive. Just like the words and concepts of Jesus were offensive to the Jews. Look again at how many times He said:
"your synagogues". He never claimed them to be from the Father. He referred to them primarily as from religious man.
I'm not sorry I've offended you. It wasn't my intention though. Never is. Beware of those who are so quick to condemn others to protect their position. I'm sure Bro Dad is a good man who loves God with all his heart. He is simply responding the only way he knows how. I understand that. It's easy to fire off the corporate answers. Takes a real man though to disagree and look into the matter. I was there once. Until I looked into the matter.
We're here to discuss biblical topics. This is one to discuss w/o getting hateful. Below is a hiistorical record regarding the origin of the pastor. I hope it proves beneficial and thought provoking.
Origin of Pastors
The first mention of the practice of having a single overseer (Bishop) as a form of church government was in the questionable letters of Ignatius of Antioch in 107 AD. It was another 50 years until it was widespread and an additional 100 years until it was the established practice in the heart of the Empire. "Bishops" were over city areas that still had individual "house church" meetings (the commonest way originally) and were without any single leader (unless Jesus) until trying to create one caused the great schism between Constantinople and Rome which resulted in two men as "heads" in the mid third century. The adaption of Pagan Temples to Christian meeting palaces is another story though. Let me explain a little.
Writings highly regarded among believers within the first century such as The Didache, The Shepherd of Hermas and Ist Clement agree with the N.T. in making no distinction between particularly the "bishops" (episkopos) and "elders" (presbyteros,) as well as "shepherds" (poimenos) All of them are interchangeable and always in the plural. "Shepherds" or, "pastors" did not have the connotations that have developed since the end of the 1500's when those caught up in The Reformation started calling their priests "pastors." Actually, there are no "Pastor" is ever mentioned when God tells the story of the Church in the Bible (mostly the book of Acts.)
A passage which illustrates the three aforementioned terms is in Acts 20 where Paul addressed the Ephesian elders, "Take heed to yourselves and to the entire flocklet, among which the Holy Spirit placed you overseers to be shepherding the ecclesia of God, which He procures through the blood of His Own." (v.28) Here, as a verb, is the only occurrence of any form of "shepherd" in Acts. He uses it in warning them what to be doing because some of their own will arise "to pull away disciples after themselves." (v.30) Does this sound to anyone else like part of the job description of a modern pastor? The term "disciple" is applied in the N. T. only to those subjected to the person of Jesus Himself, never of anyone else. The apostles were never said to have disciples. Timothy or Titus were never called "disciples" of Paul.
In the beginning and, hopefully, more and more today, as a gathering of believers develop over time in a location, among them are some more reliably advanced in "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (so can be "recognized," or "pointed out," not "appointed.") "Elders is who they are. Shepherd is what they do. Oversee is how they do it." (--quoted from Johnny Bergstrom) What Paul usually did was to leave a little gathering of believers without anyone but the Holy Spirit in charge. From the Scriptural record Galatia and Crete were the only churches we know elders were acknowledged, as well as elders mentioned at Ephesus. At Jerusalem where "elders" are first mentioned 17 years after Pentecost it is as part of the convention to decide what to have Spirit filled Gentiles do with the laws of Moses. At any rate, after a year or two left ministering to one another as members of Christ's body with the Holy Spirit leading forth through each of them it hardly seems likely they'd allow someone to come into their midst and lift one among them up over the others with instructions to become an audience for his performances, the very thing Paul had warned the Ephesian elders of. In James 1:25 "the perfect law," that is, "the law of maturity" is "liberty." Isn't that what "elders" or "older ones" are, those who guard the liberty? (Gal 5:1) The twenty-four elders are an epitome of what elders do. "They are casting their crowns (victor's wreath's) before the throne... "(Rev 4:10) Knowing they have no authority of their own, that it is all just Jesus, is what makes them "seniors" in The Faith. We are to be "subject to one another" (Eph 5:21,) not "all to one."
It wasn't until the year 107 that we have historical evidence of one elder being elevated in authority over other believers. On his way to being martyred in Rome Ignatius (b.35-d.107) wrote seven letters. (Since the oldest copy of his letters is from about a thousand years later and their content very much predates such concepts in the contemporaneous culture, we should ask how much of what he said was inserted by others much later.) While we will no doubt enjoy fellowship together one day, he didn't follow the teaching of Jesus and the apostles concerning the church but admitted it was the Roman political structures he sought to copy for strength against his perceived threat of heresy. He taught baptism, the Lord's Supper, marriage, counseling, exhorting and so on and on was to be done only by the Bishop or when He was present. This practice of one overseer (mono episcopacy) took another 50 to 100 years to become the norm. Even so, it must be remembered the bishop was over a city of house churches. To have one pastor over a specific congregation had to wait until the end of the 1500's when Lutherans started calling their priests pastors.
Tertullian (b.155-d.220,) who was converted in 195, was the first to speak of an elite class separate from other believers as "clergy" and, along with Clement of Alexandria (b.150-d.215) popularized such thinking. Tertullian was also the first to call presbyters "priests" (Latin: sacerdos) and bishops "high priests" (sacerdos summus) in about the year 200. It was apparently through Cyprian (also of Carthage) that the use of Temple Judaism's language in our Old Testament about sacrifices and altars, priests and temples began to be popularized as applying to "Christian" leaders, buildings and practices contrary to the use the apostle's made of such terms in Scripture as they wrote it. Unlike any religion before, followers of Jesus had no priests and no temples. We were the priests and the temple(s.) Around Constantine's time hierarchializm was pretty well entrenched in "Christianity" as it became "Christendom," which is, for some of us, that prophesied "great falling away," or, "apostasy." (2 Thes 2:3) Jesus said , "My kingdom is not of this world..." and now a religious system of this world with soldiers to fight for it claimed to be God's kingdom come.
The reason I came so far forward in time away from the N. T. documents, when what is or is not written should decide these things, is to point out when and where they began as another witness confirming the Scripture's every member functioning as well as complete absence of words establishing titled religious professionals to do church for us. Odd, how unable we are to submit our understanding to only the words chosen by the Holy Spirit, yet how ready we are to defend men's explanations of what God meant to say! Indeed, how readily we defend the authority of men who recognize each other with titles of honor, rather than defend the authority of God alone in the midst of His people! The apostles were raised in Judaism. If they wanted to recognize a special class of leaders in the Church or call them priests they certainly could have. If they'd intended one man be over the others why did we have to wait a while after they were all gone before it's mentioned, and certainly not in the Bible? Many today believe revelation continued after the N.T. was written. They mean it when they call certain of the early Christian bureaucrats Church Fathers, though Jesus bluntly said not to. I assure you they are not "Our Father!" Tertullian about 218 AD in On Chastity was again the person to provide the first reference we have, even though he was speaking sarcastically, of the bishop of Rome being called the "supreme pontiff."
Whether it's priests renamed as pastors or what in practice is a local Pope ("papa") in a "neighborhood Bible study," these are another "Headship" than the presence of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. The ground of the Church is our basis for meeting, flowing with the other brethren in ministry. What "Lordship" is to our individual life, "Headship" is to our corporate life. Consider the following verses (1 Cor 14:24-26) describing the normal "round table" structure meeting as God's mandate: "Now if all should be prophesying, yet some unbeliever or plain person be entering, he is being exposed by all, he is being examined by all. The hidden things of his heart are becoming apparent, and thus, falling on his face, he will be worshiping God, reporting that God really is among you. What, then, is it brethren? Whenever you may be coming together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a language, has a translation. Let all occur toward edification." What is expressed should be publicly critiqued or judged, on the spot. (v.29) "Yet if it should be revealed to another sitting by, let the first hush, for you can all be prophesying one by one, that all may be learning and all be consoled." (1 Cor 14:30-31)
---James Rohde
I challenge to teach a Bible study to someone and watch God convict them, Then Baptize them in Jesus name and let God fill them with the Holy Ghost. Teach them to Assembly themselves with believer like the Bible says, so they can be saved. I do not have anything against OOJ or Titushome. I do desire that they too be saved. I do disagree with the doctrine they teach as they do me. And yes there are snakes in the grass. If someone feels that I am referring to them let them check theirselves and see. I can assure you there are now and always will be snakes in the grass. And the term snake in the grass is not attached to anyones name. So please stop the attachs. I stand by my statement there are and will always be those that like to stir up strife and trouble.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 16, 2008, 01:11:17 AM
"even if you claim to be an apostle, pastor, or whatever"
:laughhard:
This is hilarious – even though you didn't mean it to be! I choose – whatever.
Sometimes I'm funny without even knowing it!! :clap2:
QuoteThe writings and advising of Paul regarding elders is intended to be in an overseeing context. Such were the experienced and wiser members of a congregation – the mature saints if you will. They helped to keep things in order. Remember how Paul admonished the Corinthians that all should not speak in tongues at the same time? All should not give a message at the same time? Elders kept things in order:
Eh, Jerry, I don't know. I just did a cursory study of the Greek from Acts 20:28 and the uses of the words "overseer" and "shepherd", and it looks like this office was more than just for "mature saints". Here is the definitions GBS gives for the word translated "shepherd":
1. feed -ed, -eht, -ing, fed
to exercise the whole office of a ποιμήν (poimēn 4166) (a shepherd), which involves not merely the feeding on grass (ποιᾲ (poiai) whence ποιμαίνω (poimainō 4165)), but the entire leading, guiding, guarding, and folding of the flock.
Reference(s)
Luk 17:7, Joh 21:16, Act 20:28, 1Co 9:7, 1Pe 5:2, Jud 1:12, Rev 7:17
2. rule [verb] -eth, -ing
to tend a flock or herd; that is to say to provide for, lead, cherish, and defend, as well as to feed a flock.
Reference(s)
Mat 2:6, Rev 2:27, Rev 12:5, Rev 19:15
3. cattle (feed)
to exercise the care of a ποιμήν (poimēn 4166) (shepherd) (Act 20:28), to tend as shepherds do their flocks, hence, to rule, govern (Mat 2:6. Rev 2:27).
Reference(s)
Luk 17:7The use of the word in the reference verses gives it much more than just the duty of "keeping order", IMO.
QuotePastors, teachers, and other ministry are there to share with the Body things of God. No one is there to lord-it-over another.
That's why a true pastor knows these things and can still pastor as you seem to now be opposed to and do it according to the above thoughts of yours.
QuoteThere is no elite priesthood in the Body of Christ. All in attendance are free to participate. How unlike today's "church" where the Body sits quietly in the pews and hear the oration of one or two men. The Bible doesn't teach that.
I don't think the dysfunction the Body is solely because of the office of pastor, Jerry. I agree that there are some guys who I couldn't sit under as a saint, and I agree that there are some men who have been exalted WAY ABOVE where I am comfortable with. But, that does not negate the role and function of pastor, IMO.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 16, 2008, 01:12:17 AM
That's why a lot of you here get so angry at what I'm saying. I did too, at first.
OR.....maybe it's the same anger I have towards people who teach trinitarianism or the belief that "believing" equals being born again. Yep, boils my blood, but it ain't cuz they are right. :-?
QuoteI no longer bind myself to the absolute authority of any unscriptural system. Submit to counsel, respect, and input from the Lord? Sure, but not unto elevation above everyone else. I won't do that ever again.
Do you have anyone you are accountable to, Jerry? Do you have an elder in your life, someone whose opinion usurps yours at times?
QuoteThe time has come for the Body of Christ to come out of Babylon and enter the wilderness. That is where true dependence upon the Lord begins. He is trying to prepare us for the darkness upon the horizon.
If there was
EVER a pastor, Moses was one. Great analogy!! ;)
Jerry,
While your writings are offensive, I personally am up to the task of accepting your offenses without being harmed in any way.
I am curious if you fit in any of the scenarios below:
a) You go to church, put on a smile and act like part of the crowd, then get on here and anonomously reveal how you really feel about doctrine, your pastor, etc.
b) Un-pastorable, you are a church of one. The First Church Of Jerry.
When considered as a whole, your writings depict a person devoid of basic scriptural understanding. You actually made the comment on another post that a common false teaching of the church is "The 'sacredness' of Jews and Israel..." One need dig no further than this to realize that you do not comprehend even the most basic premises of the book you claim to know so well.
Shalom.
John & Doogie
The point I have been unable to get across is not do 'away with pastors and leadership'. That is how it is being taken. The point is: the church system - as we now know and practice - overall, does not line up with scripture. The leadership authority - as we now know and practice - does not line up with scripture. It lines up more with the World system. That's all I'm saying.
Do we need leadership? Of course we do. The elder look after the younger. A pastor is basically an elder anyway. But he is not Father.
My covering is Jesus Christ. He is the Head. I answer to Him.
The pastor of the church I attend is a counsel and elder whose advice I consider. Just as I consider the advice of all those whom I entrust in my life. No one man is a single authority over me. No one. That is the province of Christ alone. I refuse to put myself under that religious requirement again.
This reminds me of the account in Acts, where some were of Paul, Apollos, and Peter. That was fine until somebody said: I'm of Christ! Christ is my head. Christ is my covering. Christ is my teacher. I think it bothers you to trust wholly in the Lord. I think it bothers you that someone may be willing to do that w/o the "approval" of "the pastor". I think it beyond comprehension to be equal as brethren to "the ministry".
Un-pastorable? In the context of unquestionable submission to unscriptural, religious authority where pastor is my head/voice/covering of God?
Yes. Guilty of that.
Un-pastorable? In the context of refusing input, experience, wisdom, advice from the gifted in the Body? No. That is not the case.
I'll say again: I am against RELIGION. I am not against pastoring. We are all to pastor - in a sense. That doesn't give us authority over someone's life. I doesn't mean they answer to us. It means they have entrusted us to help guide them in a portion of their life. That's all.
Maybe Godplace isn't the place to talk about alot of this. I just know that I was trapped in religion. I just know that breaking those bonds has been and is still one of the most difficult things to overcome. I just know that the entire Church needs to come out of Babylon and make the journey to Zion. I just know that there are some members of the Body on this site who desire the same thing. They might not know it. They might not recognize the desire to be from God. Maybe I haven't been the most articulate. Maybe I haven't been clear enough. But I'm talking about things the pulpit won't. At least, the pulpit as a whole. Things to think about. Thinks to ponder. Things to decide.
Controversial? Contentious? Absolutely. The offense is against the mixture of leaven/unleaven called religion. Straining out the two always brings a rending. It is not understood by the Babylonian church system. It is not understood by many in the Body.
Jesus said to come out from her lest you partake of her sins. Until we can come out physically, we'd best come out spiritually.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 17, 2008, 03:19:40 PM
The point I have been unable to get across is not do 'away with pastors and leadership'. That is how it is being taken. The point is: the church system - as we now know and practice - overall, does not line up with scripture. The leadership authority - as we now know and practice - does not line up with scripture. It lines up more with the World system. That's all I'm saying.
Jerry,
I never took you to be saying "
do away with" the pastor. I
did take you to say that the pastor shouldn't be someone "above" the saints.
I posted some definitions that seemed to elevate this office above the ordinary saint in the congregation. Not to a point of lording or exaltation, but as the words are defined. And, as I said, the good pastors
KNOW THIS. They exercise their authority scripturally.
Maybe you'd comment on this post: http://godplace.com/forum/index.php?topic=28796.msg785062#msg785062
Quote from: OGIA on September 17, 2008, 09:12:12 PM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 17, 2008, 03:19:40 PM
The point I have been unable to get across is not do 'away with pastors and leadership'. That is how it is being taken. The point is: the church system - as we now know and practice - overall, does not line up with scripture. The leadership authority - as we now know and practice - does not line up with scripture. It lines up more with the World system. That's all I'm saying.
Jerry,
I never took you to be saying "do away with" the pastor. I did take you to say that the pastor shouldn't be someone "above" the saints.
I posted some definitions that seemed to elevate this office above the ordinary saint in the congregation. Not to a point of lording or exaltation, but as the words are defined. And, as I said, the good pastors KNOW THIS. They exercise their authority scripturally.
Maybe you'd comment on this post: http://godplace.com/forum/index.php?topic=28796.msg785062#msg785062
"Above" the saints in the context of - superior. "Above" the saints in the context of - better. "Above" the saints in the context of - holier. "Above" the saints in the context of - head.
That's what I'm talking about. I think we're having the same conversation in two different topics. Check the AMERICA READY topic.
Yes, good pastors do not lord over. The point is that they are not lords at all. Shepherding is basically overseeing the welfare of the sheep. Their advice and counsel should be considered, but they are not to take the place of the Holy Ghost in the life of a saint. A pastor is also an elder, according to scripture.
Looking at Ephesians, we see the ministry is designed to bring the saint to maturity {perfection}. It is designed to oversee growth from "milk" to "meat". Our present system and mindset after 1700 yrs of darkness has transformed this function into an office of rulership over the Body. The natural process of the elder looking out for the younger has been corrupted into a coup for power. Again, not every pastor - but the system as a whole.
I ask again: Why does the church have a problem with Jesus being the Head? Why does the church balk at being led by and answering to the Spirit?
I've heard it stated numerous times that the pastor answers to God and God will straighten him out. What makes him so much holier than anyone else? Why does the Holy Ghost have to tell the pastor how to straighten a saint out? Does not the Holy Ghost indwell within us? Can not the Holy Ghost speak w/o the need for a human mediator? After all, this isn't the Old Testament.
I think most Christians do not want to hear personally from God. The voice of God sounds like thunder and it scares them. So the saints reject God and choose a pastor {king} to rule over them and hear from God in their stead.
Scripture shows us that the Apostles/ministry in Acts routinely left the people w/o a "leader". It was years afterward when elders were appointed in each city to "oversee" the saints. Our method is a mixture of scripture and tradition. It is that I am against. We need to be aware and work diligently at distilling the leaven.
I may or may not answer the message you requested. I try to avoid some outcomes.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 16, 2008, 02:34:44 AM
I challenge to teach a Bible study to someone and watch God convict them, Then Baptize them in Jesus name and let God fill them with the Holy Ghost. Teach them to Assembly themselves with believer like the Bible says, so they can be saved. I do not have anything against OOJ or Titushome. I do desire that they too be saved. I do disagree with the doctrine they teach as they do me. And yes there are snakes in the grass. If someone feels that I am referring to them let them check theirselves and see. I can assure you there are now and always will be snakes in the grass. And the term snake in the grass is not attached to anyones name. So please stop the attachs. I stand by my statement there are and will always be those that like to stir up strife and trouble.
I said I probably wouldn't comment but I will after all. I will answer as the person being spoken to.
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I challenge to teach a Bible study to someone and watch God convict them, Then Baptize them in Jesus name and let God fill them with the Holy Ghost. Teach them to Assembly themselves with believer like the Bible says, so they can be saved.Why do you assume this hasn't been done? Do you erroneously believe this to be solely sanctioned by a "Pastor" or "Minister"? Is the "Headship" only authorized for such actions?
Jesus said to His disciples:
Go ye therefore, and teach {make disciples} all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:That command incorporates
every member of His Body! Does not apply only to the "ministry". You know nothing of my past or present works.
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I do not have anything against OOJ or Titushome. I do desire that they too be saved.Where do you get off determining the salvation of anyone? Especially the brethren? We are strictly told not to do exactly that. But I guess those who title themselves "Pastor" are exempt.
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I do disagree with the doctrine they teach as they do me.You have a question.... ask. You have a comment..... post.
How else will we ever come to any semblance of understanding and unity? If you took half the time to seriously ponder, pray over, & consider things said, instead of immediately crying -SNAKE! - it just might be you would realize the truth in it. Or, you just might be better equipped to offer any corrective insight. But instead, you do this:
They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance....
...people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over....
...Some people feel they have out grown God's plan....
...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.
...And yes there are snakes in the grass. If someone feels that I am referring to them let them check theirselves and see. I can assure you there are now and always will be snakes in the grass. And the term snake in the grass is not attached to anyones name. And that's not counting the numerous -false teacher, false prophet, devil, troublemaker, etc - strewn about the forum. I really can't remember them all. The only one I'm pretty sure about is "brother". I don't think that one is in there.
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So please stop the attachsBecause you were told to "say it to my face" and "keep it to yourself"? Let me put up my stones.
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I stand by my statement there are and will always be those that like to stir up strife and trouble.This I agree with 100%. Just not in the manner intended.
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Brother, I say this to your face, not hidden behind ambiguous words. I don't want to because of how it will be taken. I really just want to ignore you totally, but it seems I am not allowed to do so. I know you are a good man who loves God; serving Him to your best ability. I know that you are simply trying to defend your truth & understanding. You've publically called me all kinds of names, and that's ok. I forgive you. But that phrase keeps coming back and won't let up. So here goes. I mean this with no personal malice at all...
You're a whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones. Dried up bones of judgment and condemnations that should have passed away years ago. Bones with no living muscle and sinew; no marrow to provide growth. Dead men's bones frozen in religion. You need to repent and ask God to create living bones structured in His unleavened Word, not the dead bones of religious tradition.
I think the Lord has been talking to you about some things and really wants to see change. What it is... I don't know. That's just what came to me. Dead bones and repentance. We can all examine that.
My OOJ how ugly of words you use against me. I have yet to refer to you in that matter and would refuse to. It has been my understanding that any such direct attacks would result in the Mods intervening and correction taken. To say I wish for someone to be saved is not saying they are not already. As a matter of fact I believe Paul said that. My desire is to see everyone saved. For you to lash out with the slanderous remarks shows that you my friend have a bad spirit. I am not sure of what type but you my friend are showing you know not near as much about love or the Word of God as you would like for us to know. Everytime I post something you take offence to it and say it is a bout you. All I can say if the shoe fits then wear it, if it don't leave it alone. As far as posting and trying to show you anything in the Word of God I have seen long ago you have your mind set and are unchangeable. My suggestion is that we pray one for another. I do see errors in your way of thought and I do see nothing I can say will ever change you, but I can pray for you. I will continue to warn people anytime I see false teachings spreading across here or getting taught anywhere.
Yes I am firm in what I know and teach and on the otherhand I try to be very understanding of people and their needs. I don't know but people say I am easy to talk to. And I don't go around judging people for what they do or don't do. I simply preach the Word and leave the actions up to the people. My reputation among Church folks will speak for itself. So next time I make a statement and you or Titus home says it is about you, go pray and if the shoe fits try to change and not be that way. If it is not you then there are others who would stir up trouble.
As far as leaving you along I have tried not to post anything or comment to what you are posting because I know that will fuel your fire. This all started because I warned someone to be careful on here. Then when I try to fix it with a nice challenge to reach the lost you then became offensive at that. I am sure we could all stand to do a little soul winning. So if you are offended by my remark about teaching Bible Studies then you my friend have a very serious problem and it is not with me. I encourage you to please pray before you come out with such outlandish remarks that you made to me not once but twice, for they only hurt you.
May we all be saved!!
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 18, 2008, 08:00:17 AM
You're a whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones. Dried up bones of judgment and condemnations that should have passed away years ago. Bones with no living muscle and sinew; no marrow to provide growth. Dead men's bones frozen in religion. You need to repent and ask God to create living bones structured in His unleavened Word, not the dead bones of religious tradition.
This is not a defense of OOJ, and should not be taken as such. God knows his heart, and if his words were spoken in the wrong spirit God will chasten him for it.
But remember that Jesus spoke similar words, and was entirely righteous in doing so. Just because someone speaks "ugly" words does not automatically make that person wrong for it. Just something to think about.
Congratulations. I think we can all safely say that the Bible discussions area has become the least godly discussion area on the forum.
I think it would be a good idea to re-read Scotts warning posted a month or two ago at the top of this area. This isn't the temple, and nobody on here is the equivalent of Jesus casting out the money changers or rebuking the Pharisees. That means that thinly veiled accusations or direct accusations are not in line. If you want to issue "warnings" or slam each other, do it through pm or via email. I, personally, am sick of having to wade through this garbage to get to any relevant material. When people are staying away from the BIBLE area of the forum, I'd say that there might be a problem.
That means enough "subtle" provocation of people by posting general accusations and denying they apply to any specific person, or direct provocation by posting specific accusations. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, not us.