Dichotomy of Focus

[onli-one-jehovi]

Hmm... good points made. I'll have to think about them.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Raven.... I understand exactly what you're saying. It does sadden the heart to see so many saints struggling so. Yet did not the LORD warn us that there would be a famine of the Word in the last days?

You stated OP as being primarily whom you are referring to. Believe me, the rest of the Body suffers from the same malady. So many cling to their denominal doctrines to the exclusion of all else. Getting them off their beaten paths is somewhat difficult. And when you do, it has to be baby steps not to confuse or overwhelm their comprehension.

I have family who are OP, as well as Baptist and Assembly of God. I must confess to rarely trying to delve into deeper things of Christ because they just don't understand. Somehow it always manages to come back to the basic topics of initial salvation. It's heartbreaking because there is so much more to learn and share.

All I can recommend is prayer for their eyes, ears, and heart to be opened. Pray the LORD will send someone they will listen to and grow stronger in the grace of Jesus Christ. In the meantime, keep plugging away at whoever will hear.

[Raven180]

To all,

I only mention OP because that is all I'm familiar with. I don't know much regarding any other group within Christendom. Or, if I do, it's not enough to make any concrete statements at this level. In addition, I would certainly never make blanket statements or try to speak for all. Besides being impossible, it would be quite arrogant to assert such things about so many millions.

Apart from that, I do know my own biases. Some of this is personality (I'm pragmatic leaning toward pessimistic, generally speaking) and some of it, I'm sure, has to do with my relatively young walk with the Lord (just shy of ten years saved).

Some went on a journey into Truth. They started in whatever denominational church or Christian faith and can say that they've walked with God for their whole life, even if they never were truly born again until later.

I was 24 when God saved me. Up until that time, I was not raised to be anything. There was no presence of God or faith in my life and home. There was no Bible in the home, we never said grace, never prayed, never cared about anything Lord-related.

So, for some of this, it's also perhaps an insight granted by God because of my particular set of circumstances coming into the faith. What I see many people going through are the same things I went through before I was saved. The emotional and spiritual problems plaguing today's saint are the emotional and spiritual problems God delivered me from and healed me of when He saved me. The list is extensive and maybe has a place here for another time.

But I can't help but wonder: if I am walking in victory over things that afflicted me pre-salvation, why is that so many are crawling in defeat, post-salvation, over the same things? There appears to be a dis-connect. I am not special. God is no respecter of persons. He can easily do for anyone what He did for me. Now, I know He is sovereign and chooses to do as He pleases. That's not the issue.

The issue is that there are some very simple Bible truths, that, if embraced and believed, would go a long way toward helping the bi-polar among us overcome and level out. But, as I wrote, these simple truths are routinely ignored or not taught, at least not on a large scale, popular level. Individual churches and local assemblies may have these truths taught in spades, but at regional, and national levels, i.e. at all the big conferences and crusades, and in many local churches, too, it's still the same message of milk--which I'm not against. But children of God cannot grow without meat. So like the sister I mentioned: seven years of never really being taught the doctrines of atonement and propitiation and how such doctrines make the gospel a gospel of peace, indicates to me that something is missing. A popular former evangelist and now pastor in my neck of the woods was often known to say, "It's time to get off the Acts 2:38 ba-ba, church".

I've been in the services and have seen it for myself. Congregations thunder their approval at the pentecostalisms preached (Biblical as they may be). They can't be contained. But, if a teacher strays from that for a moment, suddenly the room gets quiet, and no one knows how to care about or be excited about the deeper things of God. It's like we're all still camped at the Door, and no one really knows what's inside the rest of the Kingdom.

Have we come a long way? No doubt we have. If I gave the impression that I think all is lost or the church is a sinking ship, that wasn't my intent. The Lord will present to Himself a glorious church. I only desire to speak to this particular issue within the church, this dichotomy of focus that is strangling the life out of so many believers.

I look at Jesus and I hear Him say "My yoke is easy and my burden is light". And yet, for too many, living for Him is the hardest thing they've ever had to do. I know the fault does not lie in Christ; it's the flesh and the loathing it has for the cross. Some are lazy and indifferent and don't really believe. There are tares, as well. But some, I fear, have been nursing at the Word's breast-milk for far too long and can't grow beyond it because they don't have the spiritual teeth needed for the meat that will actually strengthen them to walk tall for Jesus. And with this in mind, it seems to me that the cultural church-i-anity that has grown up around OP tends to keep the young from being weaned.

After all, if a child is still breastfeeding ten years into their life, it's the mother's fault, not the child's. And man! that's what I want to see rectified.

[Melody]

I haven't known thousands of other people in other denominations but some. 

When I was a kid, I always thought some of the secular Christians were very fake.  They seemed to have relatively little petty drama and coming from a simple minded Pentecost, I was put off by their lack of zeal but curious about their daily living.

Now I have known some up close and personal, some through homeschooling, that I have since been thoroughly impressed with.  I have since had a complete remake of my perception from the Lord I believe.  It started with asking the question:  "How can they have such disciplines of goodness without the Holy Ghost?  and "Why, when we have the Holy Ghost/power of God in our lives, still have so much petty drama?  It was seriously frustrating that some Pentecostals could have their own reality show just as ridiculous as all the others.  The only difference being they don't use cuss words, dress trashy, or smoke/drink.  Same conduct though of arguing, being disrespectful- especially towards children, all around poor life/relationship skills.

2 things I believe I understand now.  1.Things are not always as they seem.  I learned there is a secular Christian culture from my parent's generation and back of suppression.  It is unacceptable for many to address certain issues and instead they choose a comfortable pacifying shallow Christian walk of being a good person and thus work hard on being this good person but want little part of something that doesn't look refined... and Pentecost does not look refined... LOL  So secular Christians often have a more laid back but disciplined first impression character. 

2. Secular Christians are of no threat to the spiritual world without actually being passionate about spiritual things and Truth, ie: starting with having the Holy Ghost.  So they also are not under spiritual attack as someone with the power of God experienced in their lives.  However, many Pentecostals fail to actually use this power for anything but feeling the Spirit of God and getting their prayers answered.  It seems to sit on a shelf not allowing it to transform their minds, or lead and guide them to ALL truth, which means truth of what is going on in their lives and hearts specifically.  I think every single person is guilty of this at some point.  It's so easy to not submit to God daily, pressing through to His presence, leveling ourselves so that God may deal with us plainly, and waiting on Him until we hear what HE wants to say, and studying the Bible so as to know His voice over our own imaginations.  It is even easier when we go to good churches where people HAVE been praying and fasting and we feel the anointing and move of God consistently.  Still others, because they got the Holy Ghost accompanied by great physical demonstration, I believe become a bit addicted to hype.  When we are active we know our bodies release the "happy" chemicals called endorphins.  I am convinced that some mistake this for the Holy Ghost and because of their own culture, it is accompanied with a lot of emotions.  So then there is a dependence on physical activity and emotion to feel like God is moving. 

The problem with this is, is that I believe God designed our body, mind and spirit to work together like that!  The problem comes when we aren't addressing and growing in our character towards God.  Then really only 2 out of 3 are being utilized, and the grace of God is SO patient and vast that God shows up and shows out so often so that He might draw us near.  God is patient while we have "shout down" services even when we aren't going home and letting it forever change us.  Because God is that good, He loves to love on us, He loves to bless us.  It is for a witness though of how much He desires for us to know Him.  If we took advantage of His goodness our entire lives until the very last week and then realized how much more to God there was and truly fell down and worshipped Him, and applied all that great preaching/teaching we've heard, it would be worth it.    What we do with those moves of God and His Word reveals what's in OUR hearts. 

That is why some will be able to say they did miracles and cast out devils in Jesus' name.  They received the Holy Ghost, they recognized the moving of the Spirit, they were even sensitive enough to be used.  If you're around this long enough, you discern lots of things.  They even, in the moving of the Spirit, loved God.  But that is not a seal of approval.  King Saul prophesied so intensely in the Spirit until he shook off all his clothes! 1Sa 19:23   -24 Yet before and afterwards, he was corrupt.  He fell right back into the same familiar messed up thinking.  Israel had times where they both feared the Lord and served idols. 2Ki 17:33  I think many recognize this and is why there is still great push for separation/standards.  Yet, it falls short if it is the rules preached more or over the actual Word of God.  Because the internet is not where the issue is, the heart is.  Cleanse our hearts and our lives will line up.  We are washed by the Word.


So I guess what I'm attempting to say through out all of this is that it is a valid concern. YES. But what we are seeing is the fruit of individual's hearts.  And we can talk about the issue even more extensively but at the end of the day, each individual person has to be hungry for meat and not just thirsty for milk.  I notice that I never cease from still needing the easily absorbed simple truths of God, they help me even ingest the tougher truths.  What we are seeing IS the wide way vs. the narrow way.  It's not really about standards or doctrines, it's about hearts, imo.  It doesn't matter what background we come from.  If we are zealous for truth, God will bring us to it.  If we really want what is in the Bible for the Church, God will lead us smack dab into it.  If not, all the great preaching/teaching in the world won't do any good.

I was once that ignorant new convert, though I had a church upbringing.  I sat on that pew and when the preacher/teacher said something beyond Acts 2:38, it was beyond me.  But it stirred me!  When I read it in the Word, it stirred me.  It still stirs me!  So we can't even judge how much a person is receiving something based on their response in their pew during a 2 hr service.  Often times I was overwhelmed at that truth of God and didn't outwardly react much but when I got home, when I got alone with Jesus, I was so broken and hungry for what was said.  Those are things I treasure.  And some ARE what would be demonstrated as standards but really God worked me over on my worth to Him, my place in Him, less of me and more of Him.  I am passionate about separation because I am passionate about trying to be like Him, with Him, pleasing to Him. 


Keep preaching the Word, you guys!  It never returns void.  It continues to become someone's testimony or testify against them of God's goodness.  I think in part the basics get reemphasized because there is a constant flow of needing both milk and meat in every sermon.  There is a desperation to bring the opportunity for salvation in every message.  Today is the day of salvation.. type thing.  There's a place for it.  As part of a church that has visitors every_single_Sunday, it's a priority to bring the Gospel to them.  If it's not in the sermon, someone has to be sensitive to know someone is receptive and make the effort to tell them about it. In a larger church like mine, there are both plenty of people AND so many people we have to be careful that none are neglected.  In a smaller church, there are often so little people to do it that it becomes habit for the pastor to cover it. 

I think these discussions, if anyone is reading them besides us... maybe go a long way to help people think of the work there is to be done, of the greater things God is and wants to do.  I hope so, because it's God's will that everyone knows Him intimately.

[Lynx]

Hmph.  I was reading onli_one_jehovi's post, reading Raven's post, outlining what I wanted to say... and then MellowYellow said it all first. 

Great minds think alike I guess - and it saves me a lot of typing.   

[Melody]

 


I see the only answer is to prayerfully keep talking/teaching/preaching the whole Word with everyone.  Testifying of the specific miracles happening today.  The hungry people will bite.

*At Head & Heart Ministers' Meeting in Nepal, October 21-24, 36 people received the Holy Ghost, 32 people were healed and 9 were baptized!


*Scism Christian University alumnus Sathyanandam Perumalla baptized six more people (he's baptized about 1800 in the last three and a half years, including over 500 pastors). One of them, Solomon, testifies that, when his kidneys failed from heavy liquor consumption, he had an operation and doctors declared him dead. His family kept his body with other corpses all night so the body could be taken the next morning for cremation as per Hindu customs. Solomon said two angels took him up, told him Jesus is only One True God and, just when his family was to cover his face immediately before cremation, the angels brought him back and he took a long breath. All the family members present witnessed this.

Then Solomon went to a pastor without consulting any of his family and asked to be baptized. He started witnessing to many and added to that church about 80 families but was not satisfied with his baptism. Finally he came to a UPC pastor when he heard about the new ministry started in Tuni, inquired about more detail and they called Missionary Stanley Scism for further discussion. Scism went there and answered many questions and gave clarification. Immediately Solomon was ready for baptism, along with his wife and the elder of his church and the elder's wife and also another friend. Please continue to pray for these new saints to be very great witnesses among their villages and cities.

[Melody]

I wish there was a better network of American testimonies.  Nathan and I love missions period, but foreign missions seem to share more.

[Raven180]

I know this post kind bit the dust already (and I'm not bumping it), but OOJ asked for a link to materials written by Galen Thompson, as referred to by MellowYellow.

She couldn't find a link.

But I have.

It's here:

http://go2teach.com/resources.html

So for her, or if OOJ is still around or checks in, I wanted to be able to share.

God bless.

[Scott]

Galen is a good guy, he lives around the corner from me.  He and his son are working on a new ministry for males without dads.

[Melody]

I know this post kind bit the dust already (and I'm not bumping it), but OOJ asked for a link to materials written by Galen Thompson, as referred to by MellowYellow.

She couldn't find a link.

But I have.

It's here:

http://go2teach.com/resources.html

So for her, or if OOJ is still around or checks in, I wanted to be able to share.

God bless.

Awesome link!  Thanks so much!  I think a number of ministers on GP would really enjoy that link!

[onli-one-jehovi]

Yep. Thanks for the link. I'm going now to check it out.