Dichotomy of Focus

[onli-one-jehovi]

Raven: Any harmful/negative effects? Can it backfire?

Oh yeah, just like things do in the currrent system. We're dealing with people maturing in Christ and learning to be led by His Spirit. I would say harmful can occur as a refusal to the Holy Spirit. Saints can be as tyrannical as any preacher. It can be so easy to succomb to the deception of self-rule. That's when you see meglomanical incidents manifest and the creation of "another Jesus". We've all seen some people whom you just can't teach period. Such who receive not a love for the Truth {Word}, GOD allows them to believe a lie and be damned. I guess that is also an example of backfire.

Other harmful effects could easily lean toward the stony, thorny, barely-rooted ground parable. One could wind up shying away too much from contact with others in the Body and cause unnecessary struggles in the flesh. But these things happen regulary within the Body.

Negative effects more accurately fulfill Jesus' warning that a disciple's foes will be those of their own household. Conditioned assumptions are: backslid, rebellious, demon possessed, deceived, never saved, nut, crackpot, etc.  The Bible if full of people called the same things. Paul comes to mind.

Reverse the effects though on the Nicolation system. History shows how desparately the Catholic Church has striven to keep the pew from reading the scriptures and stop depending upon the pulpit. It threatens their control. The Prostestant Church has done the same thing. How harmful would it be to the established ministerial heirarchy if the saints realized godly, Holy Ghost filled elder Bob is just as qualified to speak/teach the Word as godly, Holy Ghost filled, Bible College educated Paster Joe? How harmful would it be if the saints accept their individual responsibility for their own salvation and began to depend upon the Holy Spirit to discern/teach them in all things?

It would be catastrophic! The saints might actually begin to concentrate upon people - the widows, orphans, and poor among the congregation and the community - instead of financing mega cathedrals, exhorbiant salaries, and entertainment events. The LORD might even see fit to collectively restore healings, miracles, and deliverance. Trust me - the day is swiftly approaching when this will happen.

Again, simply looking at the Church as a whole; not any particular congregation. We are in the last of the last days and much of the Church has/is fallen into apostasy. That's why we must all discern what we hear and study against the Word for confirmation. We must mature quickly and be fully led of the Spirit. If the Holy Ghost tells us to take a break - we obey. If the Holy Ghost tells us to go elsewhere - we obey. If He tellls us to quit going altogether - we obey. He is LORD and He is more than capable of leading, guiding, and keeping us in right standing with Him.

You may never have to make that decision. Then again - you might. Regardless, continue to be sure to listen to the right Spirit. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

Ooj  I think you would absolutely LOVE Galen Thompson's writings on this subject.

Send me a link.

[onli-one-jehovi]

When I use the term "church", I am speaking about the entire Body of Christ made up of all denominations or lack thereof. Believers are not confined to the Apostolics. The Body is a whole lot bigger than that. So, to even begin to comprehend what I'm talking about requires chucking that belief point. It's a stumbling block that blinds one to the larger issues. If someone can't fathom anyone else in "their" club, then how will they see the truth about the entire system? No, you have to be willing to step out of the camp for the journey into the wilderness.

This is really going to be the crux of it all. Some can and will do what you are asking; other can't or won't (or both).

In my experience, however, I've had true wilderness experiences with the Lord, where it was just me and Him, without having to leave behind my church, my fellowship, etc. I've found the wilderness to be a deeply personal, intensely private spiritual experience not contingent upon my surroundings or even the people in my life.

I had a full two years (at least) the first go around, and then again over a year the next go round where God took me into the wilderness. At the end of the first time, God gave me a vision of myself all alone standing in a hole. I asked Him, "God, where have I been these last two years"? He said "Digging ditches". And so I was, for in the vision, I was standing in a massive ditch I myself had dug out. God then told me to end with a fast (which I did) after which, God built in my mind/spirit a hedge, founded in the ditch I had built. This hedge finished God's healing process in my mind from before I was born again. Spiritual attacks from the enemy of which I used to have no defense suddenly couldn't get to me. I was protected. This was my first wilderness experience.

My second, one that I am still currently in, has had to do with my health. Long story short, God told me in prayer "To the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak" From that, I knew God was going to allow me a time of personal weakness for the express purpose of being changed, so I could continue to become all things to all men that I may by all means win some.

Two weeks later I had a massive asthma attack that eventually cost me my job. From that point forward, I've had so many varied health concerns and issues (including all sorts of tests and treatments, including a surgery from which I am still not recovered and the possibility of needing a much more severe surgery that I am putting off) and when I pray, or have elders anoint me in the name of the Lord, the answer is always the same: God re-energizes my mind and attitude toward suffering, but does not heal my body. And I'm okay. I have changed and grown much. I have, as you say, re-evaluated many things, including my own mortality, and have come to different views and conclusions that I would have never come to without the experience.

But through it all, I've never had to leave behind or walk away from anything but my self. We will, of course, see where things take me and my family, and sometimes it's a challenge to stay reconciled when there are fundamental disagreements, but God has not yet instructed me to do anything else but be a servant, wash the saints feet, and love.

And you are being obedient to the Holy Spirit.

And this is what we must learn to respect among the brethren. Jesus even told Peter it was none of his business what the He required of John. Scripture also tells us not to compare ourselves with one another. This shows me that each of us have different purpose, function, and paths to walk in service to the Master. If we wonder on the validity of such commands, then pray. The LORD will definitely straighten one of us out. 

[Lynx]

Reverse the effects though on the Nicolation system. History shows how desparately the Catholic Church has striven to keep the pew from reading the scriptures and stop depending upon the pulpit. It threatens their control. The Prostestant Church has done the same thing. How harmful would it be to the established ministerial heirarchy if the saints realized godly, Holy Ghost filled elder Bob is just as qualified to speak/teach the Word as godly, Holy Ghost filled, Bible College educated Paster Joe? How harmful would it be if the saints accept their individual responsibility for their own salvation and began to depend upon the Holy Spirit to discern/teach them in all things?

It would be catastrophic! The saints might actually begin to concentrate upon people - the widows, orphans, and poor among the congregation and the community - instead of financing mega cathedrals, exhorbiant salaries, and entertainment events. The LORD might even see fit to collectively restore healings, miracles, and deliverance. Trust me - the day is swiftly approaching when this will happen.

It sounds to me a lot like you are saying we don't need preachers.  Is this what you intended to say?  I'll hold further comment until you respond, because I don't want to go off half-cocked on an assumption.

[Melody]

Isaac, he didn't say preachers but a pastor, for himself.



Man, you guys have said so much.  I don't think I can jump in and add input to it all. 

But here's a bit.   I get leery of the "need/have to" perspective. It sounds and feels too much like legalism.  Since when do I solely judge what is good by what I think I can merely survive with/without?  It should be on what the Word says God has given and what is profitable.  Pastors are profitable, therefore, I want one, whether I can pinpoint them and make it a heaven or hell issue or not.  I want a prophet, I want a teacher, I want an evangelist, I want an Apostle.  If I can be connected to those and give them permission to speak into my life, I am experiencing MORE of God's Word!  Bad pastors, or churches doing it wrong does not negate what is still ideal, and that optimum picture includes pastors. 

God gave us the 5 fold ministry, the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, giftings.  Therefore, since God gave it, for MY good, I want it all and feel like I'm just that human that I need it all.  Also, because of it, it validates me or anyone that feels led to be used or called in that area, and values what they have to bring. It's in the Word, it's valuable, I'm not about to tout that I don't need what God has provided. Should my husband ever be called to pastor (I have no inclination that he does) then it would be hard to value something I don't think I actually need.  It would also be more difficult to answer the call or receive a word from that office if I have devalued it's importance in MY life.  Yet, if God established the role, I must and others need it.  That's me, perhaps I'm just that pathetic.   

One thing I LOVE too about this discussion is a little bit of the fact that within my testimony of where God has brought me from I get to brag on God a bit about seeing Him glorified in the healthiest local assembly that I've ever seen/experienced.

Both in church services and outside in regular life and our cell groups, the gifts of the Spirit are in operation.  This morning a little mama testified how last week her husband was prayed for by the laying on of hands and one of the guys that was praying specifically prayed against any blood disorder.  She had not shared that is what he had.  At the Dr's this week he was given a clean bill of health whereas last week the Dr.s were decided about his issue. 

I love to ask the question back: "Are you seeing a liberty of God in the way you're doing things?"  Because in years past when we went to a different church I struggled with the question should I ever be asked if the things we read that are available to us in the Bible, are being utilized at my local assembly, in or out of church services. If I had seen the power of God demonstrated in the unity and in the ministries and in the gifts that I profess possess truth.  If we are submitted to the Word, wouldn't we reflect the Word?  Boy, is it wonderful to be able to say YES.  I look forward to the moments in the Bible studies I get to do where I'm asked if I've actually seen that kind of love, unity, ministering, healings, power of God demonstrated!  And THAT I believe empowers those that God uses me to plant or water to be discipled into a Christian that has a great big horizon. 

I KNOW it's not like that everywhere.  And neither is my church perfect.  It has it's own struggles.  But I'm not about to seclude myself from the body which is both Christ and His Bride.  And though it sounds idealistic to have an unadulterated experience with God by looking solely to my own discernment of Him, it seems to fall short when we are bombarded with SO MUCH unGodly, anti-Christ propaganda in every public setting and our own humanity.  So then it seems to actually tip the scales to unnecessarily cause us to fight just to survive on our own.  And I understand the appeal of wanting to become strong and see what we're made of.  However, I believe that this can still be done if there is a healthy body of Christ to fellowship, not socialize, with.  When we dig deeper for God, trials come anyway, and often through relationships that hit closer to home than just a co-worker. And since our hearts can be deceitfully wicked and left to ourselves we can get off on all kinds of craziness that sounds so legit in our own thinking, it seems unnecessarily dangerous.   For me, to me.  Let every man answer to God for himself.

[Melody]

Ooj  I think you would absolutely LOVE Galen Thompson's writings on this subject.

Send me a link.

It looks like they are doing some missions in Europe.  I can't find a link.  I heard him speak and it blew my mind.  I bought his synopsis? that is crazy thick and chuck FULL of in depth study of leadership and the body's working altogether.  In that setting, which was more of a casual teaching setting, the gifts were in operation.  There was an acute move of God in it as the Word resonated so deeply.  He doesn't advocate the propping up of any leaders whatsoever, and yet within the Biblical setup, it reverences each and every place of the body, which doesn't take away from the value of the roles of pastor and ect but reveals the necessity and value of all the other roles of the body.  That is the very best I have ever heard or read on the subject and it impacted me so much that it wasn't about bringing down the 5 fold ministry, but bringing UP everyone else.  Many want to just remove the role of authority in their life for everyone to be equal, but that is the beauty of it. To reverence the roles IS to make all equal.

Anyway, I'm not as articulate as you guys but I thoroughly have enjoyed this discussion. I'm not sure if either of us is really open to be swayed by the other, even if we say we are.  I appreciate the chance to chime in if only to give example of a local assembly being at least somewhat successful. 10 yrs ago I would have probably agreed 100%.  But I hadn't experienced what I have now that lines up with the Bible.  Now, while I understand where people are coming from when they break away for something else, it's cause they focussed on all the flaws instead of pursuing with this very flawed humanity, for greater things, with grace saturating it all, working towards perfection. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

Reverse the effects though on the Nicolation system. History shows how desparately the Catholic Church has striven to keep the pew from reading the scriptures and stop depending upon the pulpit. It threatens their control. The Prostestant Church has done the same thing. How harmful would it be to the established ministerial heirarchy if the saints realized godly, Holy Ghost filled elder Bob is just as qualified to speak/teach the Word as godly, Holy Ghost filled, Bible College educated Paster Joe? How harmful would it be if the saints accept their individual responsibility for their own salvation and began to depend upon the Holy Spirit to discern/teach them in all things?

It would be catastrophic! The saints might actually begin to concentrate upon people - the widows, orphans, and poor among the congregation and the community - instead of financing mega cathedrals, exhorbiant salaries, and entertainment events. The LORD might even see fit to collectively restore healings, miracles, and deliverance. Trust me - the day is swiftly approaching when this will happen.

It sounds to me a lot like you are saying we don't need preachers.  Is this what you intended to say?  I'll hold further comment until you respond, because I don't want to go off half-cocked on an assumption.

No, I'm not saying we don't need preachers. They are gifts to the Body. I'm saying - according to the Bible - we do not need "preachers" lording over us as the head {nicolations}. No part of the Body is above or below any other part of the Body. Neither do we need a "covering" of any pastor or ministry, for Jesus takes care of that.

Not just for "me" but for each one of us. We are not to depend upon any other member of the Body to impart/lead/control us in any way, shape, or form. Jesus is the Head and has sent the Holy Ghost to lead/guide/counsel us on an individual basis and not through the mouthpiece of the gift of the ministry.

We all are affected by the last 1800 years of priestly rule. As such, it is very difficult to imagine a priesthood not "above" everyone else. We say we are all equal, but we defer to preachers as being "more equal".  We shouldn't do that.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Ooj  I think you would absolutely LOVE Galen Thompson's writings on this subject.

Send me a link.

It looks like they are doing some missions in Europe.  I can't find a link.  I heard him speak and it blew my mind.  I bought his synopsis? that is crazy thick and chuck FULL of in depth study of leadership and the body's working altogether.  In that setting, which was more of a casual teaching setting, the gifts were in operation.  There was an acute move of God in it as the Word resonated so deeply.  He doesn't advocate the propping up of any leaders whatsoever, and yet within the Biblical setup, it reverences each and every place of the body, which doesn't take away from the value of the roles of pastor and ect but reveals the necessity and value of all the other roles of the body.  That is the very best I have ever heard or read on the subject and it impacted me so much that it wasn't about bringing down the 5 fold ministry, but bringing UP everyone else.  Many want to just remove the role of authority in their life for everyone to be equal, but that is the beauty of it. To reverence the roles IS to make all equal.

Anyway, I'm not as articulate as you guys but I thoroughly have enjoyed this discussion. I'm not sure if either of us is really open to be swayed by the other, even if we say we are.  I appreciate the chance to chime in if only to give example of a local assembly being at least somewhat successful. 10 yrs ago I would have probably agreed 100%.  But I hadn't experienced what I have now that lines up with the Bible.  Now, while I understand where people are coming from when they break away for something else, it's cause they focussed on all the flaws instead of pursuing with this very flawed humanity, for greater things, with grace saturating it all, working towards perfection.

That's sounds like what I am so inadequately trying to say. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

Isaac, he didn't say preachers but a pastor, for himself.



Man, you guys have said so much.  I don't think I can jump in and add input to it all. 

But here's a bit.   I get leery of the "need/have to" perspective. It sounds and feels too much like legalism.  Since when do I solely judge what is good by what I think I can merely survive with/without?  It should be on what the Word says God has given and what is profitable.  Pastors are profitable, therefore, I want one, whether I can pinpoint them and make it a heaven or hell issue or not.  I want a prophet, I want a teacher, I want an evangelist, I want an Apostle.  If I can be connected to those and give them permission to speak into my life, I am experiencing MORE of God's Word!  Bad pastors, or churches doing it wrong does not negate what is still ideal, and that optimum picture includes pastors. 

God gave us the 5 fold ministry, the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, giftings.  Therefore, since God gave it, for MY good, I want it all and feel like I'm just that human that I need it all.  Also, because of it, it validates me or anyone that feels led to be used or called in that area, and values what they have to bring. It's in the Word, it's valuable, I'm not about to tout that I don't need what God has provided. Should my husband ever be called to pastor (I have no inclination that he does) then it would be hard to value something I don't think I actually need.  It would also be more difficult to answer the call or receive a word from that office if I have devalued it's importance in MY life.  Yet, if God established the role, I must and others need it.  That's me, perhaps I'm just that pathetic.   

One thing I LOVE too about this discussion is a little bit of the fact that within my testimony of where God has brought me from I get to brag on God a bit about seeing Him glorified in the healthiest local assembly that I've ever seen/experienced.

Both in church services and outside in regular life and our cell groups, the gifts of the Spirit are in operation.  This morning a little mama testified how last week her husband was prayed for by the laying on of hands and one of the guys that was praying specifically prayed against any blood disorder.  She had not shared that is what he had.  At the Dr's this week he was given a clean bill of health whereas last week the Dr.s were decided about his issue. 

I love to ask the question back: "Are you seeing a liberty of God in the way you're doing things?"  Because in years past when we went to a different church I struggled with the question should I ever be asked if the things we read that are available to us in the Bible, are being utilized at my local assembly, in or out of church services. If I had seen the power of God demonstrated in the unity and in the ministries and in the gifts that I profess possess truth.  If we are submitted to the Word, wouldn't we reflect the Word?  Boy, is it wonderful to be able to say YES.  I look forward to the moments in the Bible studies I get to do where I'm asked if I've actually seen that kind of love, unity, ministering, healings, power of God demonstrated!  And THAT I believe empowers those that God uses me to plant or water to be discipled into a Christian that has a great big horizon. 

I KNOW it's not like that everywhere.  And neither is my church perfect.  It has it's own struggles.  But I'm not about to seclude myself from the body which is both Christ and His Bride.  And though it sounds idealistic to have an unadulterated experience with God by looking solely to my own discernment of Him, it seems to fall short when we are bombarded with SO MUCH unGodly, anti-Christ propaganda in every public setting and our own humanity.  So then it seems to actually tip the scales to unnecessarily cause us to fight just to survive on our own.  And I understand the appeal of wanting to become strong and see what we're made of.  However, I believe that this can still be done if there is a healthy body of Christ to fellowship, not socialize, with.  When we dig deeper for God, trials come anyway, and often through relationships that hit closer to home than just a co-worker. And since our hearts can be deceitfully wicked and left to ourselves we can get off on all kinds of craziness that sounds so legit in our own thinking, it seems unnecessarily dangerous.   For me, to me.  Let every man answer to God for himself.

Again.... not saying anyone has to leave their congregation. Not in the least. All I've said is to examine the Nicolation Doctrine, be led of the Spirit and not the pastor, and obey the Holy Spirit no matter what He says to do. It may mean or be beneficial to separate ones self from "church" for an unknown amount of Time, as the Spirit leads.

Why do we assume fellowship can only be found on Wednesdays, Sundays, and Revivals in the enclosures of a "church service"? Why would fellowship with Believers at work, Walmart, the internet, telephone, or the living room be any less sanctioned by GOD than those in a "church"? Does not the Bible say: Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them? Did not Jesus say no longer would you have to worship in a central location or temple to be with GOD?

I think what upsets so many is not the necessity of the ministry - we do need those giftings - but rather challenging the unbiblical rule of the ministry. Most Christians are afraid to do anything w/o the approval of "pastor". Even if the Holy Ghost says differently. That's why so many condemn themselves for missing "church", for they are unwittingly - but sincerely - serving an idol. That's why it needs to be broken so that Christ can be Head of His Body.

Not everyone can yet crucify themselves in this area. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

You sound like you have come thru this fire and are free. Interaction with the Body is not a matter of control or comparison. That's great. Many though, still do not see the need. And that's why we pray for one another and the Body in general. We pray the LORD would be merciful in judgment, opening the eyes, ears, and hearts of HIS people so we can be healed.

[Lynx]

No, I'm not saying we don't need preachers. They are gifts to the Body. I'm saying - according to the Bible - we do not need "preachers" lording over us as the head {nicolations}. No part of the Body is above or below any other part of the Body. Neither do we need a "covering" of any pastor or ministry, for Jesus takes care of that.

Not just for "me" but for each one of us. We are not to depend upon any other member of the Body to impart/lead/control us in any way, shape, or form. Jesus is the Head and has sent the Holy Ghost to lead/guide/counsel us on an individual basis and not through the mouthpiece of the gift of the ministry.

We all are affected by the last 1800 years of priestly rule. As such, it is very difficult to imagine a priesthood not "above" everyone else. We say we are all equal, but we defer to preachers as being "more equal".  We shouldn't do that.

I see what you're saying, but I still disagree with that one little word I took the liberty of bolding and underlining. 

[Raven180]

Just so everyone is aware, I've been reading along. I just don't have internet at home--only at work--so when I finish my five days on, I don't have much time to get back and get in until the next week. But I'm following. Keep up the good posts!

[onli-one-jehovi]

No, I'm not saying we don't need preachers. They are gifts to the Body. I'm saying - according to the Bible - we do not need "preachers" lording over us as the head {nicolations}. No part of the Body is above or below any other part of the Body. Neither do we need a "covering" of any pastor or ministry, for Jesus takes care of that.

Not just for "me" but for each one of us. We are not to depend upon any other member of the Body to impart/lead/control us in any way, shape, or form. Jesus is the Head and has sent the Holy Ghost to lead/guide/counsel us on an individual basis and not through the mouthpiece of the gift of the ministry.

We all are affected by the last 1800 years of priestly rule. As such, it is very difficult to imagine a priesthood not "above" everyone else. We say we are all equal, but we defer to preachers as being "more equal".  We shouldn't do that.

I see what you're saying, but I still disagree with that one little word I took the liberty of bolding and underlining.

Would you please explain why yourself or anyone else is not?

[Lynx]

I already have explained it.  Repeatedly.  And so has MellowYellow. 

But to recap:  While I have seen churches where the pastor is dictator, in my experience such is the exception rather than the rule.  In most churches I have been in, what you refer to as "nicolations" does not exist.  Perhaps you should find a different church.  If you're within shooting distance you're welcome to come to ours. 

[onli-one-jehovi]

I already have explained it.  Repeatedly.  And so has MellowYellow. 

But to recap:  While I have seen churches where the pastor is dictator, in my experience such is the exception rather than the rule.  In most churches I have been in, what you refer to as "nicolations" does not exist.  Perhaps you should find a different church.  If you're within shooting distance you're welcome to come to ours. 

Of course.  I had overlooked my own statement about non-comprehension if the term "church" was limited to a single denomination or congregation. Forgive me. Both of you.

Thank you for the invitation too. Have to pass though. Besides, I'd hate to point out evidence that might ruin your outlook. 

Enjoy talking to you.

[Melody]

I don't think those two thoughts are synonymous, OOJ.  And this is what causes me to be suspect of you.  Why are you immediately accusing anyone of being what you think is small minded in a subject because they may not fully agree with you on another?  This is fruit from a contention.  If we agree that there are so vast a number of variables even within one individual of being mature or learned in one subject yet perhaps lacking in another, and that not diminishing their value or opportunity for iron to sharpen iron, why dismiss Isaac and apparently me on both aspects of a subject when neither of us has even addressed what we believe qualifies a believer?  There is a tinge of emotion that seems to be over riding your well thought out position.  I say that in gentle grace that I hope you hear.  I just see there is still something that hinders really having this conversation as brethren and it would require you to acknowledge and perhaps still experience a healthy local assembly and realize there are many more.  And even step from there and exercise the grace that understands there is far more GOOD to focus on that allows issues such as this to be naturally shored up by striving toward and edifying instead of criticizing. The Kingdom of God is SO big!  oh the testimonies I hear and read from around the world! 

And it seems that when people get a broader horizon of what God is doing all over, all the time, it affects them and their local assembly sometimes in an unforeseen way.  Leadership can change or leadership can be changed!  Yet, I have yet to see the results I believe you want by the avenue you are choosing.  Or by what you have presented here and shared of yourself, I'm sure it's only a smidgen of the whole picture, so I reserve judgement, which I don't care to have anyway.  Even a prophet, who is stirred and directed by God to chasten, ends with hope and redemption and it isn't a socialist idealism.  It always honors the governmental positions God ordained in the first place and doesn't undermine them or devalue them to ever suggest we don't need them.  This isn't Bible language ever. And mostly because when prophets were criticizing, it was an actual direct Word from God and then instruction toward repentance.  You are simply standing aside analyzing, unless you are currently also counseling pastors on building up their congregations? Especially if you are not faithfully giving and receiving from a local assembly of some sort being accountable and honoring a pastor in your life.  God appointed brethren as high priests and manifested himself not as a pedestal king but a brother.  We ALL need a brother to sharpen our iron as a pastor.  If not, we truly don't have all the Word working in our lives.  God gave it to us "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."  If we don't have a pastor, we are lacking. Because we are not engaging in what God Himself has given us for our own perfection. 

It may hold true SOME places, but what profit is it to those you are addressing?  And while you are focussed on the lack, the lack could be being taken care of while we speak. It IS. Guaranteed.  God's patience does not negate His sovereignty.  Nobody can keep another from Jesus.  Not even a rotten pastor. So the church is not what is having the issue so much as shallow Christians.  Those who hunger and thirst shall be filled, soo... man is getting far too much credit and attention from you.  I am not sure if I am coming across too harsh or not.  I see your desire for the Church to mature, and I share it.  However, I think there is still more personal journey to go to have wisdom for it.  I say that because I believe a there's a time and place in my testimony that identifies where you are currently.  Let me tell you.  Yes, you have accurate points, you have legitimate concerns, but perhaps the focus needs tweaked.  It's like praying for "revival" instead of unity.  To have a refreshing and refocus, there must be unity.  So to seek a broader, bigger thing of God toward His great feats automatically takes care of the small and petty things like discord.  We cannot focus so much on ourselves.  God is doing such marvelous things, OOJ.  There are entire congregations coming to truth more and more.  The Church is growing in how she is understanding Who she really is with God.  Things we cannot even put on public forum yet because of unrest still in other countries.  Children, teenagers, elderly are being stirred up/again.  Oh how eminent the coming of the Lord is and when He comes He WILL find faith and a spotless bride.  The Church is doing well.  The confusion comes I think in part in our lack of discernment in whom the Church really is.  We either align ourselves with the Church or we don't.  The Church's destiny is not in jeopardy! 

I don't take issue with what you pose is an actual issue at many assemblies.  I simply think it unwise and unprofitable to put it across the board to the entire Church. So to try and fix or analyze it lumped with places that not only don't have that issue but are a thriving example of how it should be or maybe the closest thing there is thus far how it should be, brings miscommunication as we see here, I believe.

Any saved person is part of the Church, regardless of denomination.  It isn't over till we're dead, there's always more to learn and more revelation to receive but that doesn't discount how far each of us have come.  When one is born into the kingdom, they are a member of the Church. 

We may disagree on what being "born" consists of OOJ, but that is an entirely different conversation. 

[Lynx]

Even a prophet, who is stirred and directed by God to chasten, ends with hope and redemption and it isn't a socialist idealism.  It always honors the governmental positions God ordained in the first place and doesn't undermine them or devalue them to ever suggest we don't need them.  This isn't Bible language ever. And mostly because when prophets were criticizing, it was an actual direct Word from God and then instruction toward repentance.

Please excuse me cherry-picking this part out of the whole post, but I wanted to comment about this thought.  One of the coolest things about being a minister is that you get to encourage so many people so much.  But if God does send you a message of correction, it is not one of excoriation, blasting the person who is doing wrong.  If God has to correct someone, the message is always a gentle plea, not castigation, and if the hearer has to tear down something in his life the message always gives the tools to build back up the right way. 

By the same token, if you hear a message loaded with shame and guilt, with no positive note in the whole sermon, that preacher probably enjoys blasting people.   

[Melody]

I hope I didn't come across as blasting OOJ.  I really do identify with his desire to see a healthy church making great strides of discipling souls.  It is an honorable desire, a cause greater than himself, which we should ALL have. ♥

[Lynx]

No, I didn't see your post as blasting.  I was talking about some preachers I know around where I live, who shall remain nameless.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I hope I didn't come across as blasting OOJ.  I really do identify with his desire to see a healthy church making great strides of discipling souls.  It is an honorable desire, a cause greater than himself, which we should ALL have. ♥

I didn't take it as blasting either. Not in any way, shape, or form. We're all mature believers having a nice conversation. I like those.

[Raven180]

A lot has been said since I was last able to fully contribute, so please indulge me a moment to swim upstream and comment.

OOJ,

Thanks for answering my three questions. I anticipated such responses. Thank you for sharing. It was a nice over all contribution to the post.

Mel,

If I were you, I wouldn't doubt your capacity to contribute. Much of what you are saying is worth the read and does well to service and communicate your p.o.v. Well done.

As for my input:

All that has so far been said goes back to the main point of the post. That right now, within modern Christianity, especially in the U.S. if nowhere else, there is a great divide, an almost bi-polar approach to living for God.

There is a pull on the church right now. Two directions. Direction one is: keep your lamp full, be prepared, the Bridegroom is coming. The second pull is: use up your oil, get comfortable, and take your chances. This duality is tearing people and churches apart. Maybe no one else is seeing it, but I am seeing it daily. It's like the only thing God seem to be talking to me about lately.

While this post has gone the way that it has, the purpose for its existence still remains. Personally, I have never seen so much anguish in the lives of believers who should otherwise be full of the Holy Ghost and faith. It's more than just the law of sin and the carnal mind. It's more than just unbelief and the struggles that come with the flesh.

All that can be shaken is being shaken. And too many people don't know where they stand. Why? Simple. Because a double-minded man (i.e. a bi-polar Christian) is unstable in ALL his ways. Such a person can receive nothing from the Lord.

Where does this all come from and what can be done about it? Those are my main concerns. OOJ offered his take on the reason why and some solutions. But is anyone else seeing what I'm seeing or am I alone in my perceptions?

The only way I can describe it is thus:

Jeremiah 31:15,

Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

God is trying to succor and help His people, but they go on weeping, refusing to be comforted. I personally know so many saints who just can't seem to get to that place of peace and rest the Holy Ghost offers. We are supposed to be lively stones, even Jerusalem rejoicing. But instead, we are just so many dry bones living without hope. It makes no sense.

[Melody]

Good post.

I keep going back to the Mt. of Transfiguration.  3 disciples climbed & worked for revelation, sacrificed to be where Jesus was.  While at the same time the rest of the disciples were toiling away trying the cast a demon out of a child. 

We can either focus our fight on all the devils or on getting higher  towards God.  Both are exhausting, both will have great opportunity to see God be amazing = testimony. 

But oh how the Mt. changes ME & increases my intimacy w/ Him!  And the by product is more understanding and faith in who God is and His authority.

[Raven180]

Here's my take, for what it's worth.

It is a common thing for trends, movements, revivals, and etc. to follow a typical pendulum procession from one side/extreme to the other. The modern Pentecostal movement, for lack of a better term, is relatively new in the history of Christendom (a loose term meant to mean anyone who claims affiliation with Jesus as Christ, regardless of doctrine or the current spiritual state of their soul). Oneness Pentecostalism is even newer. And OP has followed just such a pendulum-type course.

Right now, although there is growth (numerically and otherwise) the fact is, those people who might come under such an umbrella as OP, are quite small in number. While the argument could be made about the strait and narrow road having few upon it, the fact is, when a group of people find themselves as the minority in an otherwise unimaginably gigantic ocean of "others", one thing tends to always happen: an inferiority complex develops that causes the minority group to increase internal cohesion and solidarity based upon emphasizes their distinctive differences from the rest, to the almost complete exclusion or acknowledgement of the similarities. This is a standard event which occurs, and in and of itself, is not necessarily or automatically a bad thing.

However...

The doctrines, beliefs, and lifestyle choices that make OP different than the "others" of Christendom, however right they may be, have also isolated OP people. Not necessarily isolated them from other people within Christendom. Rather, it has isolated OP believers from the rest of the whole counsel of God regarding doctrines typically ignored or misunderstood to the point that all any average OP person can see is the doctrinal differences that make them an OP.

What do I mean?

Take a look at the most popular literature coming out of OP circles. It's all still and only based in the distinctives: oneness theology, speaking in tongues, baptism in the name of Jesus, holiness and standards, etc. Any other teachings out there based in other Biblical subjects only exist insomuch as they reflect and comment upon the distinctives. Granted, there's nothing wrong with having a distinctive; people of the Name should be different. But the pendulum of the movement has been far too long to one side.

Take a look at these often ignored Biblical doctrines:

- Grace
- Justification
- Propitiation
- Atonement
- Substitution

The fact is, way too many OP believers have no functional conception of these doctrines or what part they play in the message of salvation. Average OP believers only know, "I got baptized and spoke in tongues".

Jesus is highly divorced from the gospel these days. His only mention is in our baptismal formula. Otherwise, except for a quick nod toward death, burial, and resurrection, He's almost completely forgotten. Or if not, then still, what He actually did and what it means for us is.

I know so many believers who have "obeyed the gospel", who have gone through the whole Acts 2:38 experience, who can recite all the oneness proof-texts in their sleep, and can't manage to walk by faith and live in the hope of the very gospel they obeyed. My brothers and sisters in the Lord walk defeated, joyless lives, looking back on a historical moment in time when the day of salvation came and went, and don't have any faith in anything apart from memories of a baptism that happened years ago.

So why is there a dichotomy of focus? Why are there so many bi-polar Christians these days? My take is this: We've been misled. We have focused so much on our distinctives, on those things which make us OP, that we've completely missed the boat on all the other doctrines related to the gospel which under-gird our salvation. And because we don't understand these things, because they've been so routinely ignored and undervalued, we have a whole heap of people whose faith for salvation is based more on what they did to get saved than on what the Savior did to actually save them.

Only by entering into God's rest can one truly cease from their own works (Hebrews 4:10). Too many people are working at trying to add their own personal merits to the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection.

People pray. Why? Because they think prayer time makes them righteous before God. People fast. Why? Because people think it twists God's arm and grants them special favor with the Lord. People attend church. Why? Because they think God's affection and love is based on being in a certain physical location at a certain point in time on certain days of the week. People minister. Why? Because they feel like God only cares about them if they fulfill their perceived ministerial duties.

This is not so. These things are works, which while important, do not cause righteousness before God. They don't grant us extra grace and favor. They don't earn God's love. And they don't validate our existence in the eyes of God. So what says the Word?

Romans 4:4-8,

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Why are people in the church pining away at an unfulfilled life in Christ? Why do so many saints refuse to be comforted by the Comforter? Because they've been trusting in themselves and their own personal efforts to merit peace with God and living in the OP distinctives to the neglect of the rest of the Word of God. But because no personal effort or merit can grant peace with God (See Romans 5:1), and because OP distinctives are not all there is to TRUTH, people have no real spiritual peace, and therefore no rest in the Lord, and so, are being spiritually torn apart, divided asunder, not knowing which way is up or where to turn, i.e. they are bi-polar.

I recently taught a Bible study and began speaking on the relationship of the gospel to peace, that indeed the gospel is more than once called "the gospel of peace" in the Bible. Almost as soon as I started, tears hit a sister's eyes. It wasn't me, it was the Spirit ministering. Later, she tells me (paraphrasing) "It's been seven years since I've been saved, and I've never really had peace..." She said more, but the point is made. SEVEN YEARS of being filled with the Spirit and the Prince of Peace, the Lord of Peace, the God of Peace inside of her can't get her to a place of peace no matter how hard He tries and has been trying, for seven years. She's not backslidden. She's not a hypocrite. She's not false in anyway. She's just the normal OP believer, who hasn't ever been fully indoctrinated into the substitutionary atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ. She's been otherwise indoctrinated into all the OP distinctives, but man! what a long time to be treading water, waiting for something inside of her to change. Many times, it's just about wrecked her faith. Why? Because she tries to please God with OP works, and not simple Bible faith. She admits it. This doesn't degrade obedience in any way. Rather, it upholds it and puts the necessity of it in it's proper place. Obedience just for the sake of doing so, with no real reason apart from some hard to grasp command that seems vaguely arbitrary, is not obedience; it's rote, loveless conformity.

This is what I am seeing all over, and am hearing from the Lord when I pray. I hope no one takes me the wrong way, or misconstrues my post. I am for Acts 2:38  and everything else that makes for our distinctives. I just want the rest of the story to be told and for my beloved brothers and sisters to be made whole.

[Melody]

I appreciate that you are not saying "all."  And in so, I agree pretty much.

I have noticed another variable to that however. 

We have to look at our OP American heritage.  More often than not it sounds like, and makes sense, that many who experienced Acts salvation were those that were acutely aware of their need for Him beyond spiritually but also just for survival.  It's been our blessing and a challenge that many converts have been lower class, lower income, lower education.  I see a poor minded culture that has had much influence on the shape on the OP movement.  While this does not automatically mean less manners and sense, it often can. 

I have personally seen mine own struggle with it. My views on physical and emotional health growing up, even in the church, were not Godly whatsoever.  My views on child rearing, money, and relationships also were such a far cry from what the Bible says.  God has been and continues to be so very gracious with me.  It didn't change me permanently in any area until I understood not just the surface wrong but the source perspective that causes me to not reflect the Word in the first place.  Then, God could increase me.  Because I wasn't merely just trying to obey another rule, which does have it's place, but I wanted the TRUTH of that rule/law to be a part of who I was so that I didn't even have to struggle with obeying, I was empowered to be.  Hiding the Word in my heart.  This has also given me more grace, though I still have so far to go, with others.  Yes, they can have the H.G. honestly and sincerely and still be so wrong on many things.  They are not done potentially growing until they're Dead.  Thank the Good Lord Jesus, neither am I.  THAT's my God.  That is the God I want and need and thus the God I want for others.  And that is who God is.  Full of mercy, grace, compassion.

This is vital to recognize I believe because while I find your post is true, I think it is true relative to those still subject to simple mindedness.  And on one hand, God is not confusing, He is clear and simple enough for a child to receive and because of that, many do not grow much further, afraid of compromising the sweet basic truths.  The sweet simple truth brought them to the new birth experience and will continue to do so. In our American OP history, many have become preachers based on that alone.  I believe this is what causes roller coaster Christians.  Pray through on Sunday instead of every day, hear preaching a couple times a week instead of experiencing that deep overwhelming sovereignty of God's word daily and hearing from God themselves regularly, loving on people after a good altar call instead of getting involved in people's everyday happenings for the sake of edifying.  It's plain old worldliness still thriving in an immature Christian's life. They see people around them stop preaching those things and see them FALL.  What is failed to recognize is that there is a difference between teaching all the OP standard subjects WITH the rest of the Bible, and ditching the subjects altogether.  That preaching grace while still holding to the fundamental truths isn't compromise or on the way to it.   However, we need discernment that preaching grace while tearing down those who we once called brethren, is a sure sign that grace is NOT there. 

And I say that with a very sober spirit.  Regardless if it is a OP tearing down a now charismatic, or a bitter charismatic tearing down a OP.  NEITHER is grace.  BOTH have submitted to the same seductive spirit of pride.  Preaching the Word brings conviction, revelation and discernment.

While those things are such turn offs and negative witnesses, it is something of the OP culture, and I HAVE to have grace or I am in conflict with my very self and God.  Add onto that the lack of interaction with other people and churches around the WORLD and you have people who may only be hearing the preaching and teaching of a few from their church or section.  Which is fine if it's healthy.  Raven180, there are SO many teachers and preachers focusing on far more than initial salvation and separation!  However, not everyone is hearing about it.  This is why I think using media for God is such a powerful tool.  There are countless sermons and lessons and commentary to keep us busy for 10+ lives each.  GOOD teaching that goes into more depth.  But we know that if someone is not being faithful, submitting themselves to God daily, they won't have the capacity to receive it, let alone retain and apply it. It goes over their head and they focus on style rather than substance. It somewhat is revealing. I've heard some surface extremely boring people say some profound things of God.  While culture can be a stumbling block, it most certainly cannot hold a hungry soul from God increasing them.  A poor backwoods preacher can be abounding in revelation, and because of that, God never leaves them out by themselves. God brings us to those that help us get to where we are trying to go and visa versa.


This issue, I believe comes down to a very bottom line.  We either really love JESUS, or we love religion.  I grow more appreciative of the landmarks that have been made even since Azusa St.  I have to realize that they were still not perfect.  They had received revelation about the new birth experience, but we know that's only the beginning.  I truly cannot complain and criticize how ignorant they were when they were ground breakers for what we have today.  They were leading towards God.  And there are leaders today doing the same thing.  I cannot bring myself to focus much on the fact that they or everything they preach isn't perfect because they are farther than their fathers, which were farther than theirs. 

I'm so glad that there is such a line in the sand for oneness, new birth, and separation.  We can't afford to lose it, but neither can we afford to stand there all day.  We have to take it with us to the next level, having that muscle built that it's not a heavy thing but has become essential survival nutriment which we've adapted with who we are/our own weight.  To put it down makes someone feel lighter and more free for sure, but they will not survive.


At some point it hit me. 

*We see the birth of the Church in Acts that is grafted into Israel. 

*We read historically the boom even under persecution of the Church. 

*We see the evidence of the gospel preached all over the world. There are still today underground churches in closed middle east countries that it is very hard to get word to and from other than through the H.G. 

*We know the turn in events that because there was such a lack of availability of the Word just a few hundred years after the Apostles that evil men took advantage of that and twisted the Word to use over man instead of empowering man. ie: Nicene creed, etc. 

*It's no wonder then why the years after were called the dark ages being abused by the Roman "church."  Yet, even during those times, there are cases of nuns and random people getting the HG evidenced by tongues and then being persecuted. 

*We see the struggle for religious freedom as God put a conscience in us all and man yearned for the freedom to seek and worship God. 

*Fast fwd to coming to America to do that.  Oh man was STILL SO messed up!  But he was moving forward, he was reaching. 

*Until finally, the gates bust open wide to an Azusa St. and we see that though we are still such flawed humans, that strides have been made!

To look at all of that and see where we are now... Yes. there are still a great many issues that we must work out of ourselves, and many take that freedom to be complacent, butwe are growing. 

I have to highlight that.  It's so easy to see how we fall short.  In fact that is the EASIEST thing to see and God has and continues to work a different perspective in me.  That He is doing what we give Him room to do and I believe that room is growing. 

I see the things you see, Raven.  But I also see a bride working out her own salvation.  I see some aligning with who the Bride really is and some falling away being seduced by demons appearing as angels of light.  Though God will hold pastors/leaders accountable for their impact upon those around them, there will not be ONE person who can blame a pastor/leader for their demise to hell.  I have come to the conclusion that while the Church is not yet perfected, neither is all the people in the churches actually in the Church.  Tares up with the wheat.  So I pray for discernment.  Not for who's saved and who's not but for what is of God and what is His bride, really.  That is only found in prayer and not just reading the Bible but Loving what the Bible says! 

I know of one older gentleman who got the revelation of the oneness of God during a trinitarian Bible study.  And he has never looked back.  It simply hit him how very wrong it was and that there was one God and He was Jesus.  Also, a man that received the revelation of Jesus Name & necessity of baptism while watching a televangelist on TV explain why baptism isn't necessary!  Nothing can keep God from answering a hungry soul's yearning for Him!

[Lynx]

Galatians 3:2 comes to mind.

[onli-one-jehovi]

All that has so far been said goes back to the main point of the post. That right now, within modern Christianity, especially in the U.S. if nowhere else, there is a great divide, an almost bi-polar approach to living for God.

There is a pull on the church right now. Two directions. Direction one is: keep your lamp full, be prepared, the Bridegroom is coming. The second pull is: use up your oil, get comfortable, and take your chances. This duality is tearing people and churches apart. Maybe no one else is seeing it, but I am seeing it daily. It's like the only thing God seem to be talking to me about lately.

While this post has gone the way that it has, the purpose for its existence still remains. Personally, I have never seen so much anguish in the lives of believers who should otherwise be full of the Holy Ghost and faith. It's more than just the law of sin and the carnal mind. It's more than just unbelief and the struggles that come with the flesh.

All that can be shaken is being shaken. And too many people don't know where they stand. Why? Simple. Because a double-minded man (i.e. a bi-polar Christian) is unstable in ALL his ways. Such a person can receive nothing from the Lord.

Where does this all come from and what can be done about it? Those are my main concerns. OOJ offered his take on the reason why and some solutions. But is anyone else seeing what I'm seeing or am I alone in my perceptions?

The only way I can describe it is thus:

Jeremiah 31:15,

Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

God is trying to succor and help His people, but they go on weeping, refusing to be comforted. I personally know so many saints who just can't seem to get to that place of peace and rest the Holy Ghost offers. We are supposed to be lively stones, even Jerusalem rejoicing. But instead, we are just so many dry bones living without hope. It makes no sense.

I feel with ya. The LORD has been trying to get through to His people for quite awhile now. Many do not heed Him; for whatever reason there might be. A few months ago, the LORD gave me a mental image of this. The scripture of gathering like a hen gathers her chicks came to mind. I could see - as from a great height – a gigantic Jesus kneeling on the ground, with His arms out-stretched to encircle the hundreds and thousands of saints running towards Him. Our only safety lies in Him.

How appropriate the mention of the Ten Virgins, for that parable is a very good object lesson to where we find ourselves today. All of us came out of the World and into the Church while on our way to Heaven. We've been in here waiting for the Bridegroom for 2000 years. Subsequently – as the Bridegroom tarried - the entire Church fell into slumber and sleep. Then the 3rd Day arrived and the cry went out that the Bridegroom comes! {Hosea says after two days He will revive us. A day is like 1000 years. I believe the events of 9/11/01 began the Time of Sorrows setting up the soon return of Jesus the Messiah.}

Since that time, the wise in the Church have begun to trim their lamps. (The lamp, the wick, and the oil are all types of the Word of GOD.) I understand this to mean removing all the soot and waste that prevents the wick from providing full illumination.  A lot happened while we slumbered and slept. Tradition replaced the oil and gummed up the wick, thereby giving off a sooty, sporadic light that is very dim. That's why so much of the Church has trouble comprehending anything beyond what brought them to salvation: there is no oil and the wick needs trimming. Now the time of the Bridegroom's coming is here, and He commands us to go out (into the dark) and meet Him.

I believe what you are seeing/sensing is a result of personally "trimming your lamp". The body is the container, the Word is the oil, the transformed mind is the wick, and the Holy Spirit is the flame. In our minds, we are to "trim" everything that doesn't line up with the Word in order for the oil to burn purely. The wise do this and the foolish do not. The foolish are stirring from sleepy incomprehension, without oil, and preparing to meet the Bridegroom based upon inaccurate understandings like works to earn salvation and keeping religious "don'ts" The sad part is: we can't give them our oil (illumination/understanding) because they must go to the source and buy it for themselves. They must return to the pure Word for 100% illumination, rather than depend upon anyone else. Only that will make the foolish, wise.

We are dry bones because we're coming out of slumber. Remember, we do not die, but sleep. The vision of Ezekiel's bones is a type of us being made into the image of Christ prior to His return. We are awaiting the moment when we truly become the sons of GOD. The moment we too perform miracles, testify boldly, see continual results of the Holy Spirit when multitudes are instantly converted in the streets and homes. But we can't do that by staying in the Camp. By that I mean simply doing what we've always done and expecting different results. The Virgins are called to go out and meet the Bridegroom. Because of that, the wise will observe many who refuse to be comforted, seemingly w/o hope.

There's a price to understanding the gap engulfing the Church. The LORD is requiring a choice to be made, just as Joshua did long ago. Some will choose to stay where they are accustomed to; while others will move on into the dark wilderness to meet Christ. To move on will mean there are friends, relatives, and congregations who do not yet understand "why?" Again, it may not be physical, but the separation will happen. It's impossible not to and meet the Bridegroom. {Lest any misunderstand – not talking about the rapture at this time. Talking about being 100% led of the Holy Spirit by the Word of GOD.}

I know it sounds like a cliché, but keep praying. Pray that their eyes will be opened to see; ears will be opened to hear, and heart will be opened to understand what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

When someone is walking outside the Word: Father forgive them they do not know what they do. Lay not this sin to their charge.

When given the opportunity to witness, exhort, correct – be ready to do so according to the Word.

Judgment must begin with the Church. Pray in judgment, He remembers mercy.
We're nearer the end where things get worse and worse. A line is being drawn in the sand. Let's be sure we make the right choice. Let's choose Jesus and trust Him as never before.

I hope there was some help in there. Not what I intended to write. It just came out this way. 