What has changed?

[Brother Dad]

just be careful, sometimes other routes may seem easier or even a better route but can leave us lacking in the end and cause more problems than what we thought we were walking away from

So true.

[Backseat Radio]

just be careful, sometimes other routes may seem easier or even a better route but can leave us lacking in the end and cause more problems than what we thought we were walking away from

My main concern is I want to be part of something that is completley scriptural and I see things in the apostolic faith that don't line up with what I see in the scripture.

[titushome]

My main concern is I want to be part of something that is completley scriptural and I see things in the apostolic faith that don't line up with what I see in the scripture.

Your desire to follow the Scriptures is laudable, but your desire to "be part of something that is completely scriptural" is not.  Here's why:

1. I doubt you'll ever find anyone - not even one person, let alone a whole church - who agrees with you 100% when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.
2. Our fellowship within the family of God is not based on our agreement on interpreting the Scriptures; it's based on the fact that we're washed in Jesus' blood and filled with His Spirit, and He has made us part of His family.

Keep reaching for Truth; never stop.  But don't let that quest cause division between you and your brothers and sisters in the Lord.

[Brother Dad]

My main concern is I want to be part of something that is completley scriptural and I see things in the apostolic faith that don't line up with what I see in the scripture.

Your desire to follow the Scriptures is laudable, but your desire to "be part of something that is completely scriptural" is not.  Here's why:

1. I doubt you'll ever find anyone - not even one person, let alone a whole church - who agrees with you 100% when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.
2. Our fellowship within the family of God is not based on our agreement on interpreting the Scriptures; it's based on the fact that we're washed in Jesus' blood and filled with His Spirit, and He has made us part of His family.

Keep reaching for Truth; never stop.  But don't let that quest cause division between you and your brothers and sisters in the Lord.

I agree, anyone can twist the Scripture and make it sound right.  But without being washed in the blood by baptism in His name and filled with His Spirit it will do you no good.  We can not seek to please ourselves but God.  Sometimes we blind ourselves to truth because we wish to.  As long as we are looking at the grass on the other side we will never be happy with what we have.

[apsurf]

Sometimes that may be true that we may blind ourselves to truth, but it usually happens when we think that we now have all the truth, and we are not willing to examine something by the bible.  We have alot of traditions that scripture doesn't support, but maybe doesn't deny, and we begin to preach them as being the scripture, and it becomes  that we are not willing to personally sit down and examine what it is that is being taught (regardless of the topic).  We become unwilling for anything to be shown to us.
  The changes that have happened to me over the last couple years theologically and in other areas, I have fought against screaming and sometimes within my own spirit, violently.  It has become  a progression to where I am and   I know this journey for myself is not finished.
I know that I don't line up with much of Christiandom, but I also have learned that there are things that are salvational, and other things that are more cultural to be decided.

That which the bible doesn't spell it out, I have to look at church tradition, church history, and principles that are established for similar areas in the bible and then make my own decision logiclly after prayer, fasting and study. That is one reason I have ended up in the methodist church.  The apostolic pentecostal doctrine i was taught is part of the foundation that I build upon, the rose colored glasses that I see everything through, but ultimately, I have to stand where I stand, and let things be as they must be. 

If I can not be part of a group, I will seperate from them (or let them sperate from me depending on the case).  If the path I follow doesn't seem to make sense or doesn't seem to follow what I think it progressively should follow, I will step back and take a long hard look at it.  I do not step forward unless certain of my steps, but I know I must go where I must go, even if it doesn't always make sense.

[Backseat Radio]

This brings up another area that we've changed over the years...  Not teaching according to the scripture.  This can be done at least 3 different ways...

1)  not rightly dividing the word
Theres plenty of things that are taught in churches today that were for the nation of Isreal but not for the gentile church.  The early church had to deal with the Judiazers that taught gentile christians that they had to be circumcized and keep the law of Moses to be saved.  Acts 15 and the book of Galatians deals with this matter extensively. 


2)  Adding to the scripture
Do we add requirements that the early church never bound on Christians?  Christ talked about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.  Have we added our traditions and lead people to believe that these traditions are scripture and binding for salvation?


3)  Taking away from the scripture
This is another thing we tend to do usually ignoring something the scripture teaches and then arguing our way around why a passage can't mean what it clearly says.

[Brother Dad]

This brings up another area that we've changed over the years...  Not teaching according to the scripture.  This can be done at least 3 different ways...

1)  not rightly dividing the word
Theres plenty of things that are taught in churches today that were for the nation of Isreal but not for the gentile church.  The early church had to deal with the Judiazers that taught gentile christians that they had to be circumcized and keep the law of Moses to be saved.  Acts 15 and the book of Galatians deals with this matter extensively. 

I know there are some things that some people require that are not backed up by the New Testament.  I of course could not get into these here for they would be me teaching standards which is not a good place to try and that.   


2)  Adding to the scripture
Do we add requirements that the early church never bound on Christians?  Christ talked about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.  Have we added our traditions and lead people to believe that these traditions are scripture and binding for salvation?

We should never lead people to believe anything we can not back up with Bible.


3)  Taking away from the scripture
This is another thing we tend to do usually ignoring something the scripture teaches and then arguing our way around why a passage can't mean what it clearly says.

I am unsure about the Church you go to but I know the scripture means what it says.  I have always made it a point in the Churches I preach to show in the Bible why I am preaching what I am preaching.  I have taught for years to be ready to always give a Biblical answer for what we believe.
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I recently address a link posted by a COC man name Mike Cornwell.  He said he had been a Pentecostal for 42 years and preached for 18 years.  I read his article "Why I Left The Pentecostal Church".  After reading his article it was plain to see he left because he really didn't know what we really taught.  I wrote a paper and sent a rebuttal to someone who sent me the link.  I will address anything in a pm in to you as I would not want to get out of line on the thread.

[Backseat Radio]

I am unsure about the Church you go to but I know the scripture means what it says.  I have always made it a point in the Churches I preach to show in the Bible why I am preaching what I am preaching.  I have taught for years to be ready to always give a Biblical answer for what we believe.

I'll agree the Bible very much means what it says.  Sadly though I've seen things practiced and heard things preached even in apostolic churches that I couldn't find scripture to back.  I've also asked preachers about things I didn't see in scripture and been blown off and not provided scripture to back what the minister taught, or what they did provide was an explanation to get around what the scripture said.

[Brother Dad]

I am unsure about the Church you go to but I know the scripture means what it says.  I have always made it a point in the Churches I preach to show in the Bible why I am preaching what I am preaching.  I have taught for years to be ready to always give a Biblical answer for what we believe.

I'll agree the Bible very much means what it says.  Sadly though I've seen things practiced and heard things preached even in apostolic churches that I couldn't find scripture to back.  I've also asked preachers about things I didn't see in scripture and been blown off and not provided scripture to back what the minister taught, or what they did provide was an explanation to get around what the scripture said.

I can not nor would I myself say anything against those you have talked to.  All I can say i have always welcomed questions from people when they came to me in the right Spirit. I am certain there is enough in the Scriptures I sure don't need to add anything else.  If I can bring myself in line to the Word of God I will do well.

[ChangedByGod]

This brings up another area that we've changed over the years...  Not teaching according to the scripture.  This can be done at least 3 different ways...

1)  not rightly dividing the word
Theres plenty of things that are taught in churches today that were for the nation of Isreal but not for the gentile church.  The early church had to deal with the Judiazers that taught gentile christians that they had to be circumcized and keep the law of Moses to be saved.  Acts 15 and the book of Galatians deals with this matter extensively. 


2)  Adding to the scripture
Do we add requirements that the early church never bound on Christians?  Christ talked about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.  Have we added our traditions and lead people to believe that these traditions are scripture and binding for salvation?


3)  Taking away from the scripture
This is another thing we tend to do usually ignoring something the scripture teaches and then arguing our way around why a passage can't mean what it clearly says.

What I have noticed myself too is when you are talking to someone who doesnt understand things, it seems many times one of those is thrown up like you are just reading into the Bible things that are not there ir you are adding to things.
When I was in the hospital the other week, I was talking to a nurse and somehow water baptism got brought up. I started telling her some scriptures that stated you needed to be baptized and the first thing she said was I was adding to the scripture an then she threw up the scripture about rightly dividing the word.
Just came across to me she was using those 2 as arguments to dismiss somthing she did not understand

[Brother Dad]

This brings up another area that we've changed over the years...  Not teaching according to the scripture.  This can be done at least 3 different ways...

1)  not rightly dividing the word
Theres plenty of things that are taught in churches today that were for the nation of Isreal but not for the gentile church.  The early church had to deal with the Judiazers that taught gentile christians that they had to be circumcized and keep the law of Moses to be saved.  Acts 15 and the book of Galatians deals with this matter extensively. 


2)  Adding to the scripture
Do we add requirements that the early church never bound on Christians?  Christ talked about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.  Have we added our traditions and lead people to believe that these traditions are scripture and binding for salvation?


3)  Taking away from the scripture
This is another thing we tend to do usually ignoring something the scripture teaches and then arguing our way around why a passage can't mean what it clearly says.

What I have noticed myself too is when you are talking to someone who doesnt understand things, it seems many times one of those is thrown up like you are just reading into the Bible things that are not there ir you are adding to things.
When I was in the hospital the other week, I was talking to a nurse and somehow water baptism got brought up. I started telling her some scriptures that stated you needed to be baptized and the first thing she said was I was adding to the scripture an then she threw up the scripture about rightly dividing the word.
Just came across to me she was using those 2 as arguments to dismiss somthing she did not understand

So very true and no doubt you were giving her the very Scripture where she could have read it herself.  It seems to alway be a good excuse to say you are adding to the Scripture when the truth is they don't want to know the truth.  It would require something of them.

[Raven180]

Maybe it's just me, but something about this post isn't sitting right.

Let me explain.

In an effort to talk about "church", we, in fact (whether we realize it or not) are talking about THE CHURCH, i.e. the Bride of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, trying to determine and enumerate all the "bad" ways that "church" has changed over the years and listing ad nauseum the many problems and flaws that local (Apostolic) congregations have seems to also finger point and criticize THE CHURCH, for whom Christ died.

I am wary in doing this. It's very easy to sniff out all the ugly spots in a church. If someone wants to find all the faults, they will have little difficulty in doing so. Especially as they focus on their own problems and hurts.

It's more difficult to allow the love of God to cover a multitude of sins and forgive the manifold weaknesses from which we all suffer, while seeing the goodness and even greatness that is the Body of Christ.

The humorous quip goes something like this:

Jesus had B+ blood type (i.e. Be Positive!)

Cynicism and pessimism about God's saints is a very dangerous position to take.

I mean, what are our expectations for God's Church? Do we expect more of our brothers and sisters than we expect of ourselves? Do we judge/condemn the New Jerusalem of God in ways that God NEVER does, simple because WE feel that a particular church is somehow lacking or subpar according to OUR standards?

You know, we can't really control the actions, words, or general behavior of others. We can, through the fruit of temperance, however, control our reaction. Remember this verse:

Great peace have they that love of the law of the LORD, nothing shall offend them.

The law is love: and love covers a multitude of sin, i.e. offences.

So again, maybe it's just me, but I advocate turning this post around and enumerating the successes, the positive impacts, and the manifold blessings and graces of the Body of our dear Savior. Let's talk about the good changes that God has affected and effected in His ekklesia, and not the bad that has (sometimes, but not always) occured.

The bottomline is this:

Carrying an unhealed wound for long and not allowing JESUS CHRIST (not His church, but Him) to heal it suggests something is wrong with the heart of the hurt person. As long as a person holds to their wound and brings it up and focuses on IT, instead of focusing on the fact that Jesus suffered worse hurt and offense than we ever will (at our own sinful hands, no less) and He still forgives and saves, and allowing that fact to HEAL us, we will always fault find and blame. As someone who (as with many of us) understands deep, ravaging wounds to the spirit, so, too, do I understand the virtuous power of Christ to heal every one of them when we forgive.

The emotional, spiritual torment of a wound is not the wound in and of itself. The torment is the unforgiveness one has at the person or groups that wounded them. See Matthew 18:32-35.

Let us forgive even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven us, and see the good in all of God's people, just like Jesus does.

Peace and God bless,

Aaron

[Brother Dad]

In reality Raven180 is has a point.  There is nothing wrong with the Church.  God has never changed and so the Church can and will be same.  Our goal must be what I can I do to make Church better.  it is easy to stand and wait for someone else to move, but don't we be the first.  If we are in the the Church and we feel it is not where it should be maybe we need a self examination.  As I said earlier ask yourself these two questions.

1.  What do I expect from the Church?

2.  What am I willing to give to the Church to make it happen?

[Raven180]

In reality Raven180 is has a point.  There is nothing wrong with the Church.  God has never changed and so the Church can and will be same.  Our goal must be what I can I do to make Church better.  it is easy to stand and wait for someone else to move, but don't we be the first.  If we are in the the Church and we feel it is not where it should be maybe we need a self examination.  As I said earlier ask yourself these two questions.

Since we are "members in particular", we must then individually examine ourselves to see what part we are playing. For example, do I fast and pray and intercede when I see a weakness or flaw in the ministry, or do I label and gossip, and justify my reasons for disrespecting the people God has called to be servants-leaders?

1.  What do I expect from the Church?

I fear that sometimes, it's easy for people to want the Church to be Jesus for them. The Word declares we are complete in HIM. It does not read that we are complete in HER, i.e. the Church.

Everyone, to one degree or another, in the church is a flawed mess of problems, earnestly seeking perfection and help from God to live righteously. There are no extra standards. We are all called to be saints, to live holy, to submit ourselves one to another, to love. To think that some in the church have an extra obligation to be more saintly, live more holy, submit more often, or love more than anyone or everyone else isn't consistent. My pastor is working out his own salvation with fear and trembling just as much as I am. So why should I expect more from him than I do of myself?

2.  What am I willing to give to the Church to make it happen?

Giving is the hardest part, but it is also the most Christlike. Christ gave His life for the Church. We should do no less.

"Take up your cross" means suffering: hurt, offense, betrayal, anguish, accusations, etc. The works. The cross is designed to kill us. Only in the death of the cross is there any real liberty to live a resurrected life of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. One must ask theirself:

If you don't have righteousness, peace, or joy in the Holy Ghost, are you truly resurrected, i.e. have you truly been crucified with Christ and died His death?

If not, get the wood, the nails, and a hammer, find the place of the Skull and lose your life.

[Backseat Radio]

What I have noticed myself too is when you are talking to someone who doesnt understand things, it seems many times one of those is thrown up like you are just reading into the Bible things that are not there ir you are adding to things.
When I was in the hospital the other week, I was talking to a nurse and somehow water baptism got brought up. I started telling her some scriptures that stated you needed to be baptized and the first thing she said was I was adding to the scripture an then she threw up the scripture about rightly dividing the word.
Just came across to me she was using those 2 as arguments to dismiss somthing she did not understand

This is where we have to be dilligent to study and find out how the early church divided the word of truth.  We must teach what they taught.  In the case of baptism you can show them through Paul's letters that Paul himself believed baptism is essential to salvation.

[Backseat Radio]

1.  What do I expect from the Church?

I expect that the church will strive to remain steadfast in the apostles doctrine
- teaching and practicing the things that were handed down to us through the ministry of the apostles

[Brother Dad]

1.  What do I expect from the Church?

I expect that the church will strive to remain steadfast in the apostles doctrine
- teaching and practicing the things that were handed down to us through the ministry of the apostles

Not what we want to perceive as what was handed down.  The Apostles taught nothing more and nothing less than Jesus had taught them.  I feel that we need to expect a lot more out of the Church than just what it teaches, like what it practices.  I hear some people says tongues aren't for everyone but then no one speaks in tongues in their church.  Like when I was a teenager the church I grew up in stop teaching standards and just teach by example.  After a while no one had standards anymore.  When we stop teaching certain things we will cause a lot of people to be lost. 

[Backseat Radio]

Not what we want to perceive as what was handed down.  The Apostles taught nothing more and nothing less than Jesus had taught them. 

Unfortunatley too many today don't teach what the apostles taught - especially when it concerns the basic salvation message. 

[Brother Dad]

Not what we want to perceive as what was handed down.  The Apostles taught nothing more and nothing less than Jesus had taught them. 

Unfortunatley too many today don't teach what the apostles taught - especially when it concerns the basic salvation message. 

It is also true that too many don't teach or won't receive because they have built walls to keep from it.  God's plan never changes.

[ChangedByGod]

I have learned from first hand experience, its easy if you let it to let pain and past experiences build up walls and walls that are sometimes hard to tear down

[Backseat Radio]

I have learned from first hand experience, its easy if you let it to let pain and past experiences build up walls and walls that are sometimes hard to tear down

very true

[ChangedByGod]

Or just sick of people. Tired of interaction and putting forth more effort for a cause we don't really believe in. I don't have enough faith or will power or desire to even want to go to a church service that lasts all day and all night. I'm too selfish, I have too much to do, I'm sick of fighting with a screaming baby all service to the point that I'd rather not go most of the time. I know I'm wrong, but that doesn't change things.

I had this post come to mind lately. I have been trying to get more into studying my Bible more and into prayer asking God to help strenghten my beleifs to the point I am willing to do somthing about it. I can say yes this is what I beleive, but what am I doing about it. Has made me realize more I need to fight  to get back right with God

[Brother Dad]

The hardest battle we all fight is with our self.

[RainbowJingles]

I just discovered this thread and have only skimmed it, but as to the "what can we do about things" question, I have only one answer:

Take the "church" outside the walls!!

I agree with what several have said:
the CHURCH is not about a preacher and a building.  It isn't about a song service, an altar call and a spaghetti dinner fund raiser.

The church is ME.
The church is YOU.

So what would Christ do if He were on the earth?
Love his enemies.
Fellowship with and love sinners.
Give when He had nothing.
Heal the sick.
Raise the dead.
Cast out devils.

So...  ARE we in the "true" church?  Or are we part of the church at all?
You may be a member of a local congregation, but if you're not doing what HE desires, then are you really a PART of the TRUE church?
Let me get personal so no one thinks this is an attack on them...
Am I sitting on the platform/singing/playing an instrument in a "church" that I don't even belong in?  Am I part of the CHURCH?  Or am I loyal to a meeting a few times a week?  Am I part of the BODY, or am I just an accessory?  It seems to me that the body of Christ doesn't need so many scarves and hats and neckties (figuratively speaking).  The body needs more arms and legs and feet.

I was just reading I John 4 this morning.  Talk about strong language!

Love.

He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is LOVE.

If you can't love, then you're not of God.

None of this is said to encourage anyone to leave your local assembly.  It is said to encourage us to provoke one another to good works.  Are we encouraging one another to do good things?

This weekend, my Sunday school class (at this point it's just Cameron and I) will be making pumpkin rolls for our neighbors.  I already had one amazing experience with giving this past weekend, where God gave me an opportunity to talk to someone about HIM because I obeyed and gave.

The most important part of our Christian walk is not the number of sermons we listen to, but how we put them into action.
It's not nearly as much about what we take in as what we give away.

I may be a bit off-topic, but it just seems that it's a matter of moving outside of our little circle of self and reaching out to others.  It helps in many ways, not the least of which is just helping cure the selfishness that begins to draw us inward.

What has changed?  Society at large is busier.  We have tried to keep up with the pace, and in doing so have lost sight of SOULS.  WHY do we do the things we do?  For bigger numbers that come from other churches?  To save people from "that preacher"?  Or to save souls from hell?

:endrant:

[The Purple Fuzzy]

Well said, RJ.