The Bible: Understand, or Just Believe?

[yosemite]

Wondering when you'd turnup.  

ohhhhhh! bro dad we got a new nick name fer ya! "turnup"!! hahahahaha

[Brother Dad]

Just loving God and standing for truth.  It is so awesome to be a child of God.

[Rattlesnake]

Gentlemen,

Good afternoon! Hope all is well in Cyber Space today.

[Brother Dad]

Yes all is well here and we had an awesome service this morning and I am expecting one tonight. 

[Rattlesnake]

We had an awesome service this morning also, tonight, I get to hear my youngest son preach!!! He is 22.

[Brother Dad]

We had an awesome service this morning also, tonight, I get to hear my youngest son preach!!! He is 22.

Awesome, tonight I won't get to hear my son preach.  He Pastors the Church I started and will be preaching somewhere else.  Billy is 28 and is an awesome preacher.  I am very proud of him as I am RS is of his son.

[Rattlesnake]

Both of my sons are Preachers, the youngest has been preaching for a couple of years, my oldest, (23) just accepted the call. Man, God has been so good to me..

[Brother Dad]

Prasie God He is so good.  I have t0ree kids and they are all in Church today.  And they love truth.  My youngest is 26 my oldest 3just turned 30.

[yosemite]

Gentlemen,

Good afternoon! Hope all is well in Cyber Space today.

all is well here. had a great service this morning. great altar call even if there was no infilling. i expect there to be another great service tonight. *hope,hope*

[Rattlesnake]

It's coming Yosemite, it's coming.

[yosemite]

It's coming Yosemite, it's coming.

nervous! anxious!!    <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZSman000%2526i%253D4%252F4%255F6%255F200v%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">

[Brother Dad]

Just get in there tonight and worship god with all you have.

[Rattlesnake]

Thank him for it.........

[yosemite]

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[titushome]

Oh, boy - here we go again.  A few more rounds of misunderstanding. 

I haven't read anything from anyone to suggest that we don't need pastors, teachers, or leadership within the Church.  One of the most important points made - with which I agree - is that Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone, is the Head of the Church.  Under Him, we are all equal, and we are all priests.  We are to submit to one another; we are accountable to one another.

I am truly waiting on the day to come when Jesus will himself will teach us all things. Until then, I will continue to follow the Holy Ghost and the inspired men of God sent my way to help advance my walk and advancement in the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. I trust you will do the same.

Brother, you need not wait: the day is today.  Jesus Himself does teach us all things - or desires to - via the Holy Spirit.  He also uses anointed men and women, and the Scriptures, but His greatest desire for us as far as learning goes is that we learn to communicate with Him directly.

[titushome]

Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance.  They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.

I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over.  I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul.  Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.

I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first....

...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.

I used they and did not call names for that would not be nice.  And I can assure there is more than just one snake in the grass.

I'm so sorry for some of the comments made in this thread.  It breaks my heart to see brothers display such attitudes.

And in case you're wondering why I don't also call out these comments -

You want to say something about me..... say it to my face.

You have a question.... ask.  

You have a comment..... post.

Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

- it's because I agree with OOJ.  If you disagree with what he's written, then say so.

Derisive comments and egregious accusations directed toward thinly veiled targets are not becoming of God's people, nor are they constructive ways to conduct a conversation - even one in which you couldn't disagree more strongly.

Saying you're "not going to call names" is not only an excuse for applying labels without explicitly naming names, it's also failing to directly engage the person with whom you disagree.  If you don't wish to engage OOJ directly, then as he said, you're better off keeping your comments to yourself.

Thanks and God bless.

[Brother Dad]

There has and always will be those who try to cause trouble.  To point out a fact is not pointing a finger.  If OOJ, you or anyone else falls into the facts that are called out I am sorry.  As I pointed out to OOJ, I did not call his name, your name or anyone else's.  The fact remains, there are those who post for the sake of arguing.  I refuse to attack anyone.

[titushome]

I refuse to attack anyone.

How is an oblique reference to OOJ as a "snake in the grass" NOT an attack?

Review again the statements below:

They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance....

...people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over....

...Some people feel they have out grown God's plan....

...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.

Such statements can be valid criticisms - but only if you directly address them to the person(s) about whom they are concerned, and only if you back up your criticisms with evidence.  Phrasing these statements in such a way as to make it perfectly clear whom you're talking about, yet refusing to directly address that person, is certainly nothing less than an attack.

You can deny they're attacks if you want to, but that's still what they are.

[doogie]

I refuse to attack anyone.

How is an oblique reference to OOJ as a "snake in the grass" NOT an attack?

Review again the statements below:

They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance....

...people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over....

...Some people feel they have out grown God's plan....

...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.

Such statements can be valid criticisms - but only if you directly address them to the person(s) about whom they are concerned, and only if you back up your criticisms with evidence.  Phrasing these statements in such a way as to make it perfectly clear whom you're talking about, yet refusing to directly address that person, is certainly nothing less than an attack.

You can deny they're attacks if you want to, but that's still what they are.

Maybe OOJ should be the one defending himself and the offensive doctrines he has postulated.  I have read VERY recent posts from OOJ that embrace the very teachings that Brother Dad referred to.  If not overtly implying that those who need a pastor are "weak and in need of milk" he at least alluded to it.  This is offensive, and contrary to sound NT doctrine as taught by the Apostle Paul.

Words do have meaning and consequence - they could lead an eternal soul astray. 

Just my two cents...

[onli-one-jehovi]

Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.

Jerry,

Do you not think the example Paul gave us, not only of his authority over the saints but the authority he appointed (elders, Timothy, etc), shows us that there are those "above us" and to whom we should be in subjection?  I sense the feeling here is that you are a rebel, striking out on your own, with no accountability, even if you claim to be an apostle, pastor, or whatever.

"even if you claim to be an apostle, pastor, or whatever"



This is hilarious – even though you didn't mean it to be!  I choose – whatever.

***************************************************

Scripture records no pastorship or leadership – as currently practiced and accepted – anywhere in the entire NT. History records a first mention by Ignatius after 100 AD and put into excepted practice around 250 AD. {Just about the time of the forming of the RCC}.  The writings and advising of Paul regarding elders is intended to be in an overseeing context. Such were the experienced and wiser members of a congregation – the mature saints if you will. They helped to keep things in order. Remember how Paul admonished the Corinthians that all should not speak in tongues at the same time? All should not give a message at the same time? Elders kept things in order: akin to older siblings watching over the younger and correcting their exuberance. I have 8 elder siblings and none of them are my boss. They watched over me when younger, but Daddy was king.

Same with the church: Christ is the head. He rules and orchestrates His Body via the Holy Ghost. His Body comes together in submission to His guidance. Pastors, teachers, and other ministry are there to share with the Body things of God. No one is there to lord-it-over another. There is no elite priesthood in the Body of Christ. All in attendance are free to participate. How unlike today's "church" where the Body sits quietly in the pews and hear the oration of one or two men. The Bible doesn't teach that.

I am subject to you in the same manner I am subject to society. If we were having a conversation, I would submit to you voicing some input. I would submit attentively to your knowledge of a subject I knew little about. If you wanted to teach me something, I would submit to your expertise. Does that make you "above" me? Does that give you authority over my life? No, of course not. It just means I yielded to your input in that situation.

There are so many others better suited to explaining this. One whom I've gleaned from is Frank Viola. Do a web-search or look at the local bookstore. I think you will find him informative.

(continued)

[onli-one-jehovi]

Rebel with no accountability huh? I can see where that comes from. In relation to today's accepted, organized religious church – I am. I'm against much of what it does. Not everything though. See, the Body of Christ is in bondage to spiritual Babylon. It is chained and brainwashed into believing in another Jesus, and practicing another gospel. There is such a mix of leavened and unleavened bread. Revelation continuously warns us to come out of there. And it's hard to do so. That's why a lot of you here get so angry at what I'm saying. I did too, at first.

No one is greater or lesser than anyone else. I have bound myself to accountability to Jesus Christ via the Holy Ghost and the Word of God. I no longer bind myself to the absolute authority of any unscriptural system. Submit to counsel, respect, and input from the Lord? Sure, but not unto elevation above everyone else. I won't do that ever again.

The time has come for the Body of Christ to come out of Babylon and enter the wilderness. That is where true dependence upon the Lord begins. He is trying to prepare us for the darkness upon the horizon. Soon, church as we know it will be a thing of the past. How many then will be able to stand? How many then will be able to hear the voice of the Lord for themselves? I think we should get ready.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I refuse to attack anyone.

How is an oblique reference to OOJ as a "snake in the grass" NOT an attack?

Review again the statements below:

They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance....

...people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over....

...Some people feel they have out grown God's plan....

...I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.

Such statements can be valid criticisms - but only if you directly address them to the person(s) about whom they are concerned, and only if you back up your criticisms with evidence.  Phrasing these statements in such a way as to make it perfectly clear whom you're talking about, yet refusing to directly address that person, is certainly nothing less than an attack.

You can deny they're attacks if you want to, but that's still what they are.

Maybe OOJ should be the one defending himself and the offensive doctrines he has postulated.  I have read VERY recent posts from OOJ that embrace the very teachings that Brother Dad referred to.  If not overtly implying that those who need a pastor are "weak and in need of milk" he at least alluded to it.  This is offensive, and contrary to sound NT doctrine as taught by the Apostle Paul.

Words do have meaning and consequence - they could lead an eternal soul astray. 

Just my two cents...

If not overtly implying that those who need a pastor are "weak and in need of milk" he at least alluded to it.

Totally misunderstood. The reference was to a 40 year-old saint still suckling on milk being immature. Not talking about natural age, but spiritual. I know many such persons who still can't make a decision w/o running it thru the pastor. They hear the voice of God as nothing more than "thunder", remaining scared and clueless to what's going on. Such are very shallow in their relationship and need to grow up!

People get offended when introduced to a concept that challenges established belief. I offend you because I do not regurgitate the status quo Apostolic/Pentecostal doctrine. I offend you because I challenge you to read the book for yourself and cut the apron strings of religion. I offend you because I dare to equate myself with "the ministry". I offend you because in the deep recesses of your heart you wonder if I'm right. I offend you because you've dared to consider this or something similar yourself. I offend you because you love God and you want more than what "church" can give.

I offend you because I offer freedom. Not freedom from the church, but freedom from religion. Freedom to seek and serve our King and His Body in ways not dreamed of, nor offered by the status quo. Freedom to know God will and does speak to us individually and guides us individually for His purposes. Freedom to know the Church is bigger than any denomination. Yes that is offensive. Just like the words and concepts of Jesus were offensive to the Jews. Look again at how many times He said: "your synagogues". He never claimed them to be from the Father. He referred to them primarily as from religious man.

I'm not sorry I've offended you. It wasn't my intention though. Never is. Beware of those who are so quick to condemn others to protect their position. I'm sure Bro Dad is a good man who loves God with all his heart. He is simply responding the only way he knows how. I understand that. It's easy to fire off the corporate answers. Takes a real man though to disagree and look into the matter. I was there once. Until I looked into the matter.

We're here to discuss biblical topics. This is one to discuss w/o getting hateful. Below is a hiistorical record regarding the origin of the pastor. I hope it proves beneficial and thought provoking.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Origin of Pastors 


The first mention of the practice of having a single overseer (Bishop) as a form of church government was in the questionable letters of Ignatius of Antioch in 107 AD.  It was another 50 years until it was widespread and an additional 100 years until it was the established practice in the heart of the Empire.  "Bishops" were over city areas that still had individual "house church" meetings (the commonest way originally) and were without any single leader (unless Jesus) until trying to create one caused the great schism between Constantinople and Rome which resulted in two men as "heads" in the mid third century.  The adaption of Pagan Temples to Christian meeting palaces is another story though.  Let me explain a little.

Writings highly regarded among believers within the first century such as The Didache, The Shepherd of Hermas and  Ist Clement agree with the N.T. in making no distinction between particularly the "bishops" (episkopos) and "elders" (presbyteros,) as  well as "shepherds" (poimenos)  All of them are interchangeable and always in the plural.  "Shepherds" or, "pastors" did not have the connotations that have developed since the end of the 1500's when those caught up in The Reformation started calling their priests "pastors."  Actually, there are no "Pastor" is ever mentioned when God tells the  story of the Church in the Bible (mostly the book of Acts.)

A passage which illustrates the three aforementioned terms is in Acts 20 where Paul addressed the Ephesian elders, "Take heed to yourselves and to the entire flocklet, among which the Holy Spirit placed you overseers to be shepherding the ecclesia of God, which He procures through the blood of His Own." (v.28)  Here, as a verb, is the only occurrence of any form of "shepherd" in Acts.  He uses it in warning them what to be doing because some of their own will arise "to pull away disciples after themselves." (v.30) Does this sound to anyone else  like part of the job description of a modern pastor?  The term "disciple" is applied in the N. T. only to those subjected to the person of Jesus Himself, never of anyone else.  The apostles were never said to have disciples.  Timothy or Titus were never called "disciples" of Paul.

In the beginning and, hopefully, more and more today, as a gathering of believers develop over time in a location, among them are some more reliably advanced in "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (so can be "recognized," or "pointed out," not "appointed.") "Elders is who they are.  Shepherd is what they do.  Oversee is how they do it." (--quoted from Johnny Bergstrom)  What Paul usually did was to leave a little gathering of believers without anyone but the Holy Spirit in charge.  From the Scriptural record Galatia and Crete were the only churches we know elders were acknowledged, as well as elders mentioned at Ephesus.  At Jerusalem where "elders" are first mentioned 17 years after Pentecost it is as part of the convention to decide what to have Spirit filled Gentiles do with the laws of Moses.  At any rate, after a year or two left ministering to one another as members of Christ's body with the Holy Spirit leading forth through each of them it hardly seems likely they'd allow someone to come into their midst and lift one among them up over the others with instructions to become an audience for his performances, the very thing Paul had warned the Ephesian elders of.  In James 1:25 "the perfect law," that is, "the law of maturity" is  "liberty." Isn't that what "elders" or "older ones" are, those who guard the liberty? (Gal 5:1) The twenty-four elders are an epitome of what elders do.  "They are casting their crowns (victor's wreath's) before the throne... "(Rev 4:10)  Knowing they have no authority of their own, that it is all just Jesus, is what makes them "seniors" in The Faith.  We are to be "subject to one another" (Eph 5:21,) not "all to one."

It wasn't until the year 107 that we have historical evidence of one elder being elevated in authority over other believers.  On his way to being martyred in Rome Ignatius (b.35-d.107) wrote seven letters.  (Since the oldest copy of his letters is from about a thousand years later and their content very much predates such concepts in the contemporaneous culture, we should ask how much of what he said was inserted by others much later.)  While we will no doubt enjoy fellowship together one day, he didn't follow the teaching of Jesus and the apostles concerning the church but admitted it was the Roman political structures he sought to copy for strength against his perceived threat of heresy.  He taught baptism, the Lord's Supper, marriage, counseling, exhorting and so on and on was to be done only by the Bishop or when He was present.  This  practice of one overseer  (mono episcopacy) took another 50 to 100 years to become the norm. Even so, it must be remembered the bishop was over a city of house churches.  To have one pastor over a specific congregation had to wait until the end of the 1500's when Lutherans started calling their priests pastors.

Tertullian (b.155-d.220,) who was converted in 195, was the first to speak of an elite class  separate from other believers as "clergy" and, along with Clement of Alexandria (b.150-d.215) popularized such thinking.  Tertullian was also the first to call  presbyters "priests" (Latin: sacerdos) and bishops "high priests" (sacerdos summus) in about the year 200.  It was apparently through Cyprian (also of Carthage) that the use of Temple Judaism's language in our Old Testament about sacrifices and altars, priests and temples began to be popularized as applying to "Christian" leaders, buildings and practices contrary to the use the apostle's made of such terms in Scripture as they wrote it.  Unlike any religion before, followers of Jesus had no priests and no temples.  We were the priests and the temple(s.)  Around Constantine's time hierarchializm was pretty well entrenched in "Christianity" as it became "Christendom," which is, for some of us, that prophesied "great falling away," or, "apostasy." (2 Thes 2:3)  Jesus said , "My kingdom is not of this world..." and now a religious system of this world with soldiers to fight for it claimed to be God's kingdom come.

The reason I came so far forward in time away from the N. T. documents, when what is or is not written should decide these things, is to point out when and where they began as another witness confirming the Scripture's every member functioning as well as complete absence of words establishing titled religious professionals to do church for us.  Odd, how unable we are to submit our understanding to only the words chosen by the Holy Spirit, yet  how ready we are to defend men's explanations of what God meant to say!  Indeed, how readily we defend the authority of men who recognize each other with titles of honor, rather than defend the authority of God alone in the midst of His people!  The apostles were raised in Judaism.  If they wanted to recognize a special class of leaders in the Church or call them priests they certainly could have.  If they'd intended one man be over the others why did we have to wait a while after they were all gone before it's mentioned, and certainly not in the Bible?  Many today believe revelation continued after the N.T. was written.  They mean it when they call certain of the early Christian bureaucrats Church Fathers, though Jesus bluntly said not to.  I assure you they are not "Our Father!"  Tertullian about 218 AD in On Chastity was again the person to provide the first reference we have, even though he was speaking sarcastically, of the bishop of Rome being called the "supreme pontiff."

Whether it's priests renamed as pastors or what in practice is a local Pope ("papa") in a "neighborhood Bible study," these are another "Headship" than the presence of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. The ground of the Church is our basis for meeting, flowing with the other brethren in ministry.  What "Lordship" is to our individual life, "Headship" is to our corporate life.  Consider the following verses (1 Cor 14:24-26) describing the normal "round table" structure meeting as God's mandate:  "Now if all should be prophesying, yet some unbeliever or plain person be entering, he is being exposed by all, he is being examined by all.  The hidden things of his heart are becoming apparent, and thus, falling on his face, he will be worshiping God, reporting that God really is among you.  What, then, is it brethren?  Whenever you may be coming together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a language, has a translation.  Let all occur toward edification."  What is expressed should be publicly critiqued or judged, on the spot. (v.29)  "Yet if it should be revealed to another sitting by, let the first hush, for you can all be prophesying one by one, that all may be learning and all be consoled." (1 Cor 14:30-31)
---James Rohde

[Brother Dad]

  I challenge to teach a Bible study to someone and watch God convict them, Then Baptize them in Jesus name and let God fill them with the Holy Ghost.  Teach them to Assembly themselves with believer like the Bible says, so they can be saved.  I do not have anything against OOJ or Titushome.  I do desire that they too be saved.  I do disagree with the doctrine they teach as they do me.  And yes there are snakes in the grass.  If someone feels that I am referring to them let them check theirselves and see.  I can assure you there are now and always will be snakes in the grass.  And the term snake in the grass is not attached to anyones name.  So please stop the attachs.  I stand by my statement there are and will always be those that like to stir up strife and trouble.

[OGIA]

"even if you claim to be an apostle, pastor, or whatever"



This is hilarious – even though you didn't mean it to be!  I choose – whatever.

Sometimes I'm funny without even knowing it!!   

The writings and advising of Paul regarding elders is intended to be in an overseeing context. Such were the experienced and wiser members of a congregation – the mature saints if you will. They helped to keep things in order. Remember how Paul admonished the Corinthians that all should not speak in tongues at the same time? All should not give a message at the same time? Elders kept things in order:

Eh, Jerry, I don't know.  I just did a cursory study of the Greek from Acts 20:28 and the uses of the words "overseer" and "shepherd", and it looks like this office was more than just for "mature saints".  Here is the definitions GBS gives for the word translated "shepherd":

1. feed -ed, -eht, -ing, fed
to exercise the whole office of a ποιμήν (poimēn 4166) (a shepherd), which involves not merely the feeding on grass (ποιᾲ (poiai) whence ποιμαίνω (poimainō 4165)), but the entire leading, guiding, guarding, and folding of the flock.
Reference(s)
Luk 17:7, Joh 21:16, Act 20:28, 1Co 9:7, 1Pe 5:2, Jud 1:12, Rev 7:17

2. rule [verb] -eth, -ing
to tend a flock or herd; that is to say to provide for, lead, cherish, and defend, as well as to feed a flock.
Reference(s)
Mat 2:6, Rev 2:27, Rev 12:5, Rev 19:15

3. cattle (feed)
to exercise the care of a ποιμήν (poimēn 4166) (shepherd) (Act 20:28), to tend as shepherds do their flocks, hence, to rule, govern (Mat 2:6. Rev 2:27).
Reference(s)
Luk 17:7

The use of the word in the reference verses gives it much more than just the duty of "keeping order", IMO.

Pastors, teachers, and other ministry are there to share with the Body things of God. No one is there to lord-it-over another.

That's why a true pastor knows these things and can still pastor as you seem to now be opposed to and do it according to the above thoughts of yours.

There is no elite priesthood in the Body of Christ. All in attendance are free to participate. How unlike today's "church" where the Body sits quietly in the pews and hear the oration of one or two men. The Bible doesn't teach that.

I don't think the dysfunction the Body is solely because of the office of pastor, Jerry.  I agree that there are some guys who I couldn't sit under as a saint, and I agree that there are some men who have been exalted WAY ABOVE where I am comfortable with.  But, that does not negate the role and function of pastor, IMO.

That's why a lot of you here get so angry at what I'm saying. I did too, at first.

OR.....maybe it's the same anger I have towards people who teach trinitarianism or the belief that "believing" equals being born again.  Yep, boils my blood, but it ain't cuz they are right.   

I no longer bind myself to the absolute authority of any unscriptural system. Submit to counsel, respect, and input from the Lord? Sure, but not unto elevation above everyone else. I won't do that ever again.

Do you have anyone you are accountable to, Jerry?  Do you have an elder in your life, someone whose opinion usurps yours at times?

The time has come for the Body of Christ to come out of Babylon and enter the wilderness. That is where true dependence upon the Lord begins. He is trying to prepare us for the darkness upon the horizon.

If there was EVER a pastor, Moses was one.  Great analogy!!