The Bible: Understand, or Just Believe?

[Rattlesnake]

The epsitles are full of Paul telling the saints that they are to hold fast the faith and teachings that they have been taught by him, so when that day comes he will not be sad but rather joyful when he presents them to Christ. You will find all the examples you need there - I just gave you scripture.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Let me make this real clear, again:

Understanding is intrinsic to belief.  How can I belive if I do not have at least a basic understanding of what I proport to believe?

My comments are directed toward those delusional souls who wrest and twist scripture to fit their world viiew. 

While I believe we all must study and know the scripture to be saved, that does not diminish the role of a pastor in our lives.

Oh, ok.

A pastor is helpful in our lives. Yet, how long does the role hold importance? Doesn't scripture tell us that you do not need any man to teach you, but the Lord will teach you? Doesn't scripture tell us that the role of pastor is a gift to the Body to help bring to maturity in Christ?

Seems like the role of ministry diminishes sharply. If it doesn't, isn't that signaling immaturity and continual need for milk? Not counting revealing an unscriptural dependence upon a religious system.

Spiritual innmaturity and a continual need for milk does not apply to saints and preachers alike that have spent years under the direction of a pastor, on their knees, interceeding for the lost and the hurting of this world ! I thank God for the so called "spiritual innmature" that have sent many prayers on my behalf, had it not been for those, I would not where I am today. Pastors are not one of the spiritual gifts, the Pastorship is a God appointed office.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Spiritual innmaturity and a continual need for milk does not apply to saints and preachers alike that have spent years under the direction of a pastor, on their knees, interceeding for the lost and the hurting of this world

Really? Then why would Paul say to an established church membership - you should be teachers and eaters of meat, yet I still have to give you milk?

Spending time under someones direction and praying for the lost does not automatically equate to maturity. Scripture says these are to be used until coming to perfection {maturity} of the fullness of Christ {a son} and we be no more children tossed about with carnal doctrine of man, but grow up into Christ where He is head {authority/leader}?

Pastors are not one of the spiritual gifts, the Pastorship is a God appointed office.

Ephesians 4:8,11 - When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. And he gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers.

According to this.... the gifts are not offices.

Remember when Jesus said: the Gentiles exercise authority over one another but it shall not be so among you? Remember, Jesus is the head and we are the body. Historically, the "office" began after the council of Nicea when the pagans infiltrated the Church. Take a search to see the origin of "pastorship". In fact, the Nicolatians practiced a division between pulpit and pew. The Church didn't start out that way.

[onli-one-jehovi]

The epsitles are full of Paul telling the saints that they are to hold fast the faith and teachings that they have been taught by him, so when that day comes he will not be sad but rather joyful when he presents them to Christ. You will find all the examples you need there - I just gave you scripture.

There is a difference between submission to hearing and considering a teaching, and subservience to another person. I hold to and consider Paul's words also, but I am not subservient to Paul or anyone who teaches his words. Jesus said He was the Head. Jesus said the HG will teach you. We have a tendency to abdicate personal responsibility to anyone but ourselves. We want the pulpit to hold all the consequences. That way, it's not our fault if the teaching was wrong.

We submit from strength and not weakness. We submit as siblings and not underlings. We are all responsibile for what we say to everyone. That's why we must speak only what the Father says. That's why we go back and confirm every teaching and not take anything blindly. In the OT, the priesthood mediated God and Man. In the NT, Jesus mediates between God and Man. We have simply rebuilt the priesthood.

Something to consider: Philip and the Ethiopian. Philip brought this man to salvation and then disappeared. The Ethiopian then went back on his own. Who "pastored" him?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Yes,

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17

Need more?

When you look at the meaning of "obey" it says: convince, pacify, conciliate, assent {to authority}, rely, agree, believe, have confidence, trust, yield.

We are to have confidence and trust in those gifted to lead. Your soul is your mind and emotions. Anyone given as a gift to the Body will give account to the Lord for what they teach and fill saints heads with. Feeding leavened bread is unprofitable to the Body. In fact, the primary reason most of the Church still needs milk, is due to the trust placed in "the ministry". One of the primary reasons for apostasy is due to leavened bread dished out from pulpits/leaders we trusted.

We cannot blindly follow or do w/o question, what anyone says. Jesus is our head. The HG is our teacher. We have to study to show ourselves approved and hide the word in our heart. We have to be open to the voice of the Lord for our own lives and work out our own salvation. We have a tendency to make the gift greater than the Giver.

Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.

[Rattlesnake]

Yes,

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17

Need more?

When you look at the meaning of "obey" it says: convince, pacify, conciliate, assent {to authority}, rely, agree, believe, have confidence, trust, yield.

We are to have confidence and trust in those gifted to lead. Your soul is your mind and emotions. Anyone given as a gift to the Body will give account to the Lord for what they teach and fill saints heads with. Feeding leavened bread is unprofitable to the Body. In fact, the primary reason most of the Church still needs milk, is due to the trust placed in "the ministry". One of the primary reasons for apostasy is due to leavened bread dished out from pulpits/leaders we trusted.

We cannot blindly follow or do w/o question, what anyone says. Jesus is our head. The HG is our teacher. We have to study to show ourselves approved and hide the word in our heart. We have to be open to the voice of the Lord for our own lives and work out our own salvation. We have a tendency to make the gift greater than the Giver.

Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.

I gave you scripture earlier, plainly telling you that there are one's here that will answer for you're soul. I'm sorry you find it so hard to understand. I also am sorry that you feel like Pastors are simply our equals - that says a lot about how you feel about submission to proper athority, rest assured God will speak to a Pastor about a situation that he will not include me or you in!

No one says to follow anyone blindly, try the spirits and see if they are of God! Jesus is our teacher, however, at this point he uses Pastors to feed his flock, he will teach us all things when he returns.

The Holy Ghost uses the Foolishness of Preaching "ie" (By Man)to save those which are lost.

The primary reason that the church still needs milk is because they have not learned how to be subjective to God's word and understand that the bible tells us to be subject to those who have rule over us, for they watch for our souls and will give an account, either in rejoicing or sadness, which will be unprofitable. They are a stiff necked people who will rebel at the simple teaching of God's word and be led by their own devices down a path of distruction beause of their unbelief in Gods infalliable word.

Please tell me, if we are all equal, who then is the scripture referring to when it says "be subject to those who have rule over us because they will give account for our souls?

To tell me that you have no athority over you in the Kingdom of Christ except Jesus himself is against ALL scriptural teaching.

There are many wolves in sheeps clothing, it is our responsibility to know the word well enough to avoid them, not blame the ministry for our short comings.

One more time, please show me where the Pastors, teachers or ministers fall under the classification of spiritual gifts?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Yes,

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17

Need more?

When you look at the meaning of "obey" it says: convince, pacify, conciliate, assent {to authority}, rely, agree, believe, have confidence, trust, yield.

We are to have confidence and trust in those gifted to lead. Your soul is your mind and emotions. Anyone given as a gift to the Body will give account to the Lord for what they teach and fill saints heads with. Feeding leavened bread is unprofitable to the Body. In fact, the primary reason most of the Church still needs milk, is due to the trust placed in "the ministry". One of the primary reasons for apostasy is due to leavened bread dished out from pulpits/leaders we trusted.

We cannot blindly follow or do w/o question, what anyone says. Jesus is our head. The HG is our teacher. We have to study to show ourselves approved and hide the word in our heart. We have to be open to the voice of the Lord for our own lives and work out our own salvation. We have a tendency to make the gift greater than the Giver.

Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.

I gave you scripture earlier, plainly telling you that there are one's here that will answer for you're soul. I'm sorry you find it so hard to understand. I also am sorry that you feel like Pastors are simply our equals - that says a lot about how you feel about submission to proper athority, rest assured God will speak to a Pastor about a situation that he will not include me or you in!

No one says to follow anyone blindly, try the spirits and see if they are of God! Jesus is our teacher, however, at this point he uses Pastors to feed his flock, he will teach us all things when he returns.

The Holy Ghost uses the Foolishness of Preaching "ie" (By Man)to save those which are lost.

The primary reason that the church still needs milk is because they have not learned how to be subjective to God's word and understand that the bible tells us to be subject to those who have rule over us, for they watch for our souls and will give an account, either in rejoicing or sadness, which will be unprofitable. They are a stiff necked people who will rebel at the simple teaching of God's word!

To tell me that you have no athority over you in the Kingdom of Christ except Jesus himself is against ALL scriptural teaching.

There are many wolves in sheeps clothing, it is our responsibility to know the word well enough to avoid them, not blame the ministry for our short comings.

One more time, please show me where the Pastors, teachers or ministers fall under the classification of spiritual gifts?

OK.

[onli-one-jehovi]

One more time, please show me where the Pastors, teachers or ministers fall under the classification of spiritual gifts?

Ephesians 4:8,11 - When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men. And he gave some, apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers.

The "some" refers to the gifts Jesus gave men.

Jesus destroyed the priesthood office at Calvary. Why in the world would he re-establish it afterwards?

You don't have to answer that. You already have. 

[Rattlesnake]

In 1 Cor. 12: 7-12 the spiritual gifts are listed, I have read this several times and still have not found Pastor listed as a sprititual gift!

Destroyed the Priesthood? I don't think so! "See below"

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The gift Jesus gave to men was the mercy he showed in providing us with Pastors, Apostles, Ministers and such to help us escape eternal damnation, not to use as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!

[Brother Dad]

Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance.  They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

As Scott so well pointed out on another thread there are others that read what we write.  If we allow people to get us into what they like to call mature teachings, which is just some easy way to rebel against the plan of God, then people see that Apostolics cannot get along one with another.  I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over.  I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul.  Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.

[onli-one-jehovi]

In 1 Cor. 12: 7-12 the spiritual gifts are listed, I have read this several times and still have not found Pastor listed as a sprititual gift!

Destroyed the Priesthood? I don't think so! "See below"

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The gift Jesus gave to men was the mercy he showed in providing us with Pastors, Apostles, Ministers and such to help us escape eternal damnation, not to use as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!

I Cor is talking about gifts given to the Body as manifestations of the Spirit. Ephesians is talking about the gifts Christ gave us upon leaving earth. Two totally different things.

The priesthood abolished is the priesthood mediating between God and man. There is no human {pastoral} High Priest. Jesus is the High Priest and we are all equally priests unto Him. There is no heirarchy in the NT priesthood.

Ephesians teaches us that the purpose of the ministry gifts is to bring us to maturity in Christ, that we be no more children. Children need milk. A 40 year old saint still suckling on milk has a problem. And there should come a day when individual dependency upon any minister/ministry  becomes "as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!" Jesus repeatedly told us the HG will guide and teach us, needing no dependency upon Man.

After all, in the natural, don't we mature to the point of not needing the minutae input of others? Do we not determine when we are capable of facing life on our own? Why would spiritual life be any different?

[Rattlesnake]

I totally agree Bro Dad, and have done this in a spirit of love. That maybe by some inspiration of the Holy Ghost truth might be revealed. At no time has this conversation been intended to do more than to prompt the mind to at least be subjected to the true word of God (the word will not return void).

I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first but felt compelled to reach out one more time. All souls are worth that "one more reasoning session". If any one discerned my conversation, then they would understand that it was not for the sake of an argument, but for the reaching of those who need a further explaining of the truth.

I truly apologize to anyone if the wrong impression was given.. It was not my intention.

[Brother Dad]

I totally agree Bro Dad, and have done this in a spirit of love. That maybe by some inspiration of the Holy Ghost truth might be revealed. At no time has this conversation been intended to do more than to prompt the mind to at least be subjected to the true word of God (the word will not return void).

I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first but felt compelled to reach out one more time. All souls are worth that "one more reasoning session". If any one discerned my conversation, then they would understand that it was not for the sake of an argument, but for the reaching of those who need a further explaining of the truth.

I truly apologize to anyone if the wrong impression was given.. It was not my intention.

Oh no Brother RS in no way did I mean you were arguing, I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.  But thank you just the same for your concern and apology.  I sent you a pm.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance.  They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

As Scott so well pointed out on another thread there are others that read what we write.  If we allow people to get us into what they like to call mature teachings, which is just some easy way to rebel against the plan of God, then people see that Apostolics cannot get along one with another.  I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over.  I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul.  Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.

Wondering when you'd turn up.  

You want to say something about me..... say it to my face.

You have a question.... ask.  

You have a comment..... post.

Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Rattlesnake

Thanks for the conversation. It was nice.

I'm calling it a night before I say something I shouldnt.

[yosemite]

I totally agree Bro Dad, and have done this in a spirit of love. That maybe by some inspiration of the Holy Ghost truth might be revealed. At no time has this conversation been intended to do more than to prompt the mind to at least be subjected to the true word of God (the word will not return void).

I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first but felt compelled to reach out one more time. All souls are worth that "one more reasoning session". If any one discerned my conversation, then they would understand that it was not for the sake of an argument, but for the reaching of those who need a further explaining of the truth.

I truly apologize to anyone if the wrong impression was given.. It was not my intention.

              (IMO) you were right on <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZSman000%2526i%253D12%252F12%255F9%255F10%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">

[Rattlesnake]

In 1 Cor. 12: 7-12 the spiritual gifts are listed, I have read this several times and still have not found Pastor listed as a sprititual gift!

Destroyed the Priesthood? I don't think so! "See below"

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The gift Jesus gave to men was the mercy he showed in providing us with Pastors, Apostles, Ministers and such to help us escape eternal damnation, not to use as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!

I Cor is talking about gifts given to the Body as manifestations of the Spirit. Ephesians is talking about the gifts Christ gave us upon leaving earth. Two totally different things.

The priesthood abolished is the priesthood mediating between God and man. There is no human {pastoral} High Priest. Jesus is the High Priest and we are all equally priests unto Him. There is no heirarchy in the NT priesthood.

Ephesians teaches us that the purpose of the ministry gifts is to bring us to maturity in Christ, that we be no more children. Children need milk. A 40 year old saint still suckling on milk has a problem. And there should come a day when individual dependency upon any minister/ministry  becomes "as an old rag and then throw away when we decided we were spiritual enough to not need them anymore!" Jesus repeatedly told us the HG will guide and teach us, needing no dependency upon Man.

After all, in the natural, don't we mature to the point of not needing the minutae input of others? Do we not determine when we are capable of facing life on our own? Why would spiritual life be any different?

In keeping the spirit of good faith, I will bow out of this conversation. I am truly waiting on the day to come when Jesus will himself will teach us all things. Until then, I will continue to follow the Holy Ghost and the inspired men of God sent my way to help advance my walk and advancement in the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. I trust you will do the same.

This conversation was not intended to as an argument, but simply a discussion and I will leave it as such! May the love of the Lord Jesus Christ abound in all our hearts until the day of his coming.

[Brother Dad]

Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance.  They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

As Scott so well pointed out on another thread there are others that read what we write.  If we allow people to get us into what they like to call mature teachings, which is just some easy way to rebel against the plan of God, then people see that Apostolics cannot get along one with another.  I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over.  I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul.  Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.

Wondering when you'd turn up.  

You want to say something about me..... say it to my face.

You have a question.... ask.  

You have a comment..... post.

Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

I used they and did not call names for that would not be nice.  And I can assure there is more than just one snake in the grass.

[Rattlesnake]

Thanks Yosemite...

[yosemite]

Thanks Yosemite...

yowsa!!

[Rattlesnake]

Rattlesnake let me tell you now that are people on here only to try and argue with anyone who will give him the chance.  They have long ago decided they didn't need a Pastor or the Church attendance even as the scripture says it is a sin not to assemble together.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

As Scott so well pointed out on another thread there are others that read what we write.  If we allow people to get us into what they like to call mature teachings, which is just some easy way to rebel against the plan of God, then people see that Apostolics cannot get along one with another.  I for one have decide that people like that who rebel against the rule of God are not worth wasting time over.  I refuse to try and convince them, because by doing so I allow them to post their false teachings and thus maybe deceive so weaker soul.  Some people feel they have out grown God's plan.

Wondering when you'd turn up.  

You want to say something about me..... say it to my face.

You have a question.... ask.  

You have a comment..... post.

Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

I used they and did not call names for that would not be nice.  And I can assure there is more than just one snake in the grass.

To approach a Brother in the Lord in such a manner as you just did is very disrespectful to say the least. I do not think it necessary to respond in such a manner as it shows what true type of spirit you walk in.

[Rattlesnake]

I totally agree Bro Dad, and have done this in a spirit of love. That maybe by some inspiration of the Holy Ghost truth might be revealed. At no time has this conversation been intended to do more than to prompt the mind to at least be subjected to the true word of God (the word will not return void).

I understand that there are those who believe they don't need a Pastor or Church to survive only to be sadly mistaken on the last day. I reconized this to be such at the first but felt compelled to reach out one more time. All souls are worth that "one more reasoning session". If any one discerned my conversation, then they would understand that it was not for the sake of an argument, but for the reaching of those who need a further explaining of the truth.

I truly apologize to anyone if the wrong impression was given.. It was not my intention.

Oh no Brother RS in no way did I mean you were arguing, I just wanted you to be aware there are snakes in the grass here who have denied the Truth and live a life of self will.  But thank you just the same for your concern and apology.  I sent you a pm.

[doogie]

Rattlesnake

Thanks for the conversation. It was nice.

I'm calling it a night before I say something I shouldnt.

Um, too late for that....

[doogie]

Great posts, Rattlesnake & Brother Dad!

[Brother Dad]

Great posts, Rattlesnake & Brother Dad!

May God richly bless you and yours.

[OGIA]

Do we need pastors, etc? Of course we do. We just need to remember they are not above us. They are not rulers in authority over us. They are brethren just like me. We are equal. As far as knowing when being mature.... the HG is more than capable of revealing that.

Jerry,

Do you not think the example Paul gave us, not only of his authority over the saints but the authority he appointed (elders, Timothy, etc), shows us that there are those "above us" and to whom we should be in subjection?  I sense the feeling here is that you are a rebel, striking out on your own, with no accountability, even if you claim to be an apostle, pastor, or whatever.