The Bible: Understand, or Just Believe?

[titushome]

In the thread "Apostolic Truth Questions" Doogie made this statement:

The Bible is more a book to be believed than understood.

(Click on the "Quote from: doogie..." line to read the statement in context.)

Doogie, I think I understand where you're coming from: that even if we don't understand why the Bible says to do a certain thing, we still ought to be obedient and do what it says.  And that while we may strive to understand the reasons behind the command, in the meantime our obedience should not be lacking.

But the flip side of the issue is that we cannot genuinely believe what we do not truly understand.  If we obey what we do not understand, then we are merely parroting or mimicking.  But the Lord wants more from us and for us than that we should merely do the right thing; He also desires that we should become righteous men, that we should be transformed, that we should conform to His image.  Righteous action needs to flow from a righteous heart; otherwise it's empty and meaningless, a mere cartoon of what the Lord desires and expects for us.

What good can it possibly do anyone to obey a command they do not understand?  I tried to come up with an example of how obedience devoid of understanding might benefit a person, but I failed.  Can you give me an example?

The discussion in which this statement was made is about tithing.  So how about tithing?  Does a person who tithes even though they don't understand why they're doing it benefit from that action?  I don't see how - because they're merely going through the motions, giving their tithe because they're "supposed to," rather than giving from the heart.  There must be at least some level of understanding.

[Brother Dad]

What good can it possibly do anyone to obey a command they do not understand?  I tried to come up with an example of how obedience devoid of understanding might benefit a person, but I failed.  Can you give me an example?

I have heard many people testify that when they read the Bible they did not understand God, but after getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ the Scriptures opened up to them.  It is truely from the heart when we obey even if we do not understand why.  True love will cause us to act on what God tells us without us having to an understanding of why.  I remember as child there were certain people my Dad would not allow me to hang around with.  I did not understand why but I obeyed my Dad.  Years later when they are all going to jail I was not.  Why because I obeyed without understanding.

How many times have we awoke in the middle of the night with the Lord telling us to pray.  Maybe He tell us who but not why, maybe He just wants us to pray.  Then sometime later we find out the why for our need to pray.  God wants us to obey not understand everything. 

As far as tithes and offerings even if you don't understand all the working of the plan of God.  If you obey Him because you Love Him the understanding may come.  Is it better to obey without understanding or disobey without understanding?

[The Purple Fuzzy]

I thought this fit in well here.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

[Raven180]

Wouldn't it be accurate to think that a great majority of certain OT laws were nigh un-understandable, either because the spiritual typology was not visible until and after the coming of Christ, or simply because God did not give a reason or understanding for them?

Consider the commands to not boil a kid in his mother's milk, or to not mix certain types of clothes/linens together. We look at those verses, and WE may see a spiritual significance that comes with or through the Holy Spirit. But how much did those laws make sense to those that were commanded to obey, who didn't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit to enlighten their eyes?

I doubt the average Jewish male understood the full rammifications of the festivals, especially in terms of future, Christian salvation and eschatology. But did they need to obey? Yes. Same with the Tabernacle/Temple. Who knew what the Menorah was truly for until Zechariah gaves us some insights? Before John received his revelation of Jesus Christ walking in the midst of the candlesticks. Did they still have to obey in creating it? Yes. Did the priests still have to obey by keeping the oil full and the wicks burning? Yes.

Even Christ's disciples did not understand the psalms and prophets regarding the suffering of the Messiah until Christ opened their understanding. So would a Jew living in 846 B.C. have understood the greater spiritual significance of the sin offering or the burnt offering, having never known, in his lifetime, the fulfillment of those commandments?

The Law is/was the schoolteacher that leads a person to Christ, right? But many Jews died in the faith, having never received the promises, i.e. the fulfillment of the commands that they obeyed. So did they understand what they obeyed by faith, having no tangible fulfillment in their lifetimes of what God was attempting to teach them through the Law?

An example I can give of obedience without understanding comes from my mom. She was baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost just over five years ago. Before her salvation, she had already made an appointment with a hairstylist for a hair cut. (No, I'm not going standards, don't worry anyone. Just making a point.) So after her baptism and infilling of the Spirit, she was talking to me about this appointment. She didn't understand anything from 1 Corinthians 11 regarding this topic. She may not have even read it. So, she was going to go ahead with the appointment. I didn't tell her not to. I just told her what it said. I didn't understand it, either. I just told her what it said and asked her if she thought she should go ahead and have her hair cut. We hung up the phone and I didn't know what she would do. But I prayed. She called me back and told me she cancelled the appointment. These were her words:

"I may not understand why it says it, but if it says it, I want to obey it."

My mom didn't understand anything about hair length for women in the Bible for a long time after that. But she obeyed a passage in Scripture by faith, not knowing why or the importance. Her hair has not been cut since. It is long, Biblically speaking and it is a glory to her and covers her head, i.e. her husband, my stepdad. He was saved nine months later.

She honored her God with her obedience, and not her understanding, and God honored and continues to honor her.

When I was baptized, I didn't fully understand the purpose and power of water baptism in Jesus' Name, nor the full meaning of remission of sins. I had no understanding of the New Covenant relationship I would have with God, nor anything of the circumcision made without hands. I didn't understand speaking in tongues. I just knew what it said. I obeyed. God saved me.

Many people refuse to obey so long as they do not understand. Their lack of understanding is (or appears to be) a carnal tool used to justify disobedience.

I for one will obey and rather obey, even if I don't understand. Again, another example: Fasting. Most people don't fast, and even more don't understand it, so they choose not to fast. I've fasted many times throughout my walk with God, and I still don't have a perfected understanding of it. I can quote the verses and I have taught on it, but there is still something about it that eludes me and really, almost everyone it seems like. Still, I obey. When ye fast...

So, I hope this all sheds some light on the original question.

One last thing:

Abraham commanded to sacrifice Isaac. Did Abe understand God and all the meaning behind the commandment? No. He just knew that if Isaac died, God was able to raise Him from the dead. He knew this by faith i.e. by his obedience to God and not by understanding what it would mean in typological Christology.

[Brother Dad]

Good post Raven180.  I think doing without understanding the whys is faith at work.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Don't overlook the Disciples either. They believed but continually were asking Jesus what He meant. After the resurrection, Jesus opened their understanding that they might understand the scriptures. Luke 24:45

Acts 8:30-31 - And Philip ran thither to him and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me.

Philip preached Jesus, the eunuch saw water and desired baptism, understanding its meaning & importance. Philip said ok, if you believe.

We can obey w/o understanding, but understanding with believing brings the best results.

[yosemite]

OOJ, can you comment on the men just before acts 2:38 that were preached to and their hearts were pricked. did they fully understand what was going on?

then after 2:38 did they fully understand? well they were confused as to what all the chatter in other tongues was.

i dont want to lead this post astray but there is a lot of acts that i dont understand. were they drunk in the spirit as we call it today. i have never known of anyone who i know only speaks english, drink a few beers and speak another language fluently. were they falling, stumbling, and laughing as they were speaking? i got into this on another board a long time ago and i said that this was true and that the reason the men were asking if these men were drunk on new wine was because they were really complaining as they were catching those who were slain in the spirit.
comments?  ( i dont have to have a whole understanding of what they were doing at this time only the 2:38 is the verse to retain and beleive, the other is an example.)

[Tricia Lea]

Here is a scripture that comes to mind when I see this topic
Acts 17:11 (KJV)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.   

This is just my opinion but I think there are some things that we may not be able to understand but if we don't , we should make every attempt to.
In the scripture they first did recieve the word but they searched the scripture to make sure it was right
If we don't have an understanding behind what we do or say would that not make it easier to be swayed?

Just my 2 cents for whatever thats worth

[onli-one-jehovi]

OOJ, can you comment on the men just before acts 2:38 that were preached to and their hearts were pricked. did they fully understand what was going on?

then after 2:38 did they fully understand? well they were confused as to what all the chatter in other tongues was.

i dont want to lead this post astray but there is a lot of acts that i dont understand. were they drunk in the spirit as we call it today. i have never known of anyone who i know only speaks english, drink a few beers and speak another language fluently. were they falling, stumbling, and laughing as they were speaking? i got into this on another board a long time ago and i said that this was true and that the reason the men were asking if these men were drunk on new wine was because they were really complaining as they were catching those who were slain in the spirit.
comments?  ( i dont have to have a whole understanding of what they were doing at this time only the 2:38 is the verse to retain and beleive, the other is an example.)

Let's look at what the scripture says: Acts 2:4-17

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues {another language}, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded {troubled in mind}, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?  {List of nationalities}... we do hear them speak in our tongues {languages} the wonderful works of God. And they {the crowd} were all amazed, and were in doubt {perplexed}, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking {jeering} said, These men are full of new wine {drunk}. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken {pay attention} to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose {take up or continue a topic; assume}, seeing it is but the third hour of the day {9 A.M.}. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God...

No, they did not understand what was going on. This was a totally new experience for them. I do not believe the saints were falling down or turning cartwheels or any of the other supra-exuberant antics we sometimes get into. Notice what the scripture says: the crowd heard their own language coming from Galilaeans. The Galilaeans were not known for their extended education. They were generally unlearned. Maybe they finished high school. They were simply average, hard working folks.

Thus the shock when these folks came up to foreign Jews speaking, not Hebrew, but their natural language. These simple country people were speaking fluent classical Greek, with the proper accent. And they were making sense! They were  speaking of the wonderful works of God. The crowd understood the words spoken, but not the ability of the speakers to speak. It was like... Dude. Can you believe this? Jethro Bodine is speaking Egyptian! That is the effect it was having.

But some mocked and said: they are just drunk. They are spouting gibberish and it just sounds like Greek. It just sounds like Latin. Listen close and you'll hear La la la la la. They are stoned, Dude. Jethro's been in Granny's moonshine!

Peter stands up and clarifies the issue:

Hey, you're wrong. Nobody is drunk. You're the ones claiming drunkenness. Trust me, they're not. It's only 9 o'clock in the morning! Who gets drunk at 9 o'clock in the morning? They're not drunk. What you are seeing and hearing is the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy; how God will pour out the Holy Ghost upon all people. That's what is happening here.

Peter goes on to bring the prophecy around to Jesus. He tells of Him being the long-awaited Messiah looked for by these same Jews. He explains to them the meaning of His life, death, burial, and resurrection. He explains to them the meaning of the Holy Ghost being poured out this day. He explains to them how Jesus is both Lord {God} and Christ {Savior}.

Because they understood his words and meanings regarding Jesus, the crowd responded asking: What shall we do? Notice they did not ask: What shall we do to be saved?; as we tend to add. The crowd had seen the miraculous change in the Galileans by the Spirit; they heard of the mighty works of God in language they could understand; and they understood Jesus was the Messiah, Lamb of God. The crowd wanted to be a part of this. They wanted this miraculous move of God in their lives. So they asked: What do we do? How does God give this to me?

Peter told them: Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name {nature, character, authority} of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward {away from God} generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:

Kinda long answer, but maybe it opens up a visual. I remember when my son was very young. He was with me one night while I was praying. I was carrying him in my arms and walking around in the church. At some point, the Spirit shifted to tongues. There was not wild tornado blowing around; no helicopter shouting going on; just a calm shift in language, which he noticed. After a couple of minutes, he tapped on me, saying: "Dad. Dad. How do you do that? I want to do it to."

He understood who I was talking to, and he recognized something new to him. It pricked his heart and he wanted to know God like that. The Lord may have let him understand some of it, I don't know.

That's how it was in Acts 2. There was just enough exuberance to attract attention, but not enough to seem like weirdoes. Plain, clear language and not a bunch of muh-muh-muhs or buh-buh-buhs.

I hope that answered the question. I'm in long mode tonight. 

[titushome]

Thank you, everyone, for some terrific posts.  You've certainly given me a lot to think about.

We can obey w/o understanding, but understanding with believing brings the best results.

I think maybe OOJ's words above best express what I was reaching for in my opening post.  Yes, there are times when obedience without understanding is necessary; and it may be that there are some commands we will never understand, but to which we must still be obedient.  But obedience with understanding is always better, when we can get it.  Even as we obey, we should strive to understand.

[Brother Dad]

I would very much like to agree, it is better to have an understanding.  A lack of understanding does not excuse us from doing what ever God commands.   I agree we should seek the face of God as we study the Word that we may get the understanding.  I also feel that ever one that has posted on here would agree with that.  I know as a Pastor I used this text many times.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

We should obey, but we should seek the understanding so that we might convince others of the truth.  When I was growing up I was told I could not do certain things, when I ask why I was told because the Church teaches against them.  When I grew in God this began to bother me.  So I started studying the Word of the Lord to see what God taught concerning these matters.  I will continue to study and grow until at which point the Lord calls me home.

[johndoherty]

(NOT TO BRING UP AN ATHEISTIC ARGUMENT BUT TO STAY ON TOPIC AND ADD MY 2 CENTS)

Understanding for me has just made me turn atheist, and has caused disbelief. So maybe if you want to be a christian, to believe and have faith and leave it in the back of your mind when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of the truth.

Understanding is to a point and then there is a large gap for faith only. If you want to believe. BELIEVE. Otherwise you'll be 

[onli-one-jehovi]

(NOT TO BRING UP AN ATHEISTIC ARGUMENT BUT TO STAY ON TOPIC AND ADD MY 2 CENTS)

Understanding for me has just made me turn atheist, and has caused disbelief. So maybe if you want to be a christian, to believe and have faith and leave it in the back of your mind when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of the truth.

Understanding is to a point and then there is a large gap for faith only. If you want to believe. BELIEVE. Otherwise you'll be 

That's a good point. I am reminded of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and asked about eternal life. He understood Jesus' answer. He did not believe and went away  .

It all comes down to MY WILL vs HIS WILL.  For humanity: to lose is to win and to win is to lose.

[titushome]

(NOT TO BRING UP AN ATHEISTIC ARGUMENT BUT TO STAY ON TOPIC AND ADD MY 2 CENTS)

Understanding for me has just made me turn atheist, and has caused disbelief. So maybe if you want to be a christian, to believe and have faith and leave it in the back of your mind when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of the truth.

Understanding is to a point and then there is a large gap for faith only. If you want to believe. BELIEVE. Otherwise you'll be 

That's a good point. I am reminded of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and asked about eternal life. He understood Jesus' answer. He did not believe and went away  .

It all comes down to MY WILL vs HIS WILL.  For humanity: to lose is to win and to win is to lose.

In the case of the rich young ruler, he understood that Jesus was asking him to choose between serving God and serving wealth.  He could not give up his riches, so he walked away from Jesus.  Like OOJ said, it's about my will vs. His will.

But I don't think that was exactly Doherty's point: it seems to me he's saying that if you want to serve God, you're better off with blind obedience - because if you understand too much, you may start asking too many questions, and end up walking away from God if they aren't answered satisfactorily.

It is my opinion that belief is not supposed to be easy; belief is supposed to be, at times at least, .  Belief is to be engaged.  Jacob was renamed Israel because he wrestled with God.

[onli-one-jehovi]

(NOT TO BRING UP AN ATHEISTIC ARGUMENT BUT TO STAY ON TOPIC AND ADD MY 2 CENTS)

Understanding for me has just made me turn atheist, and has caused disbelief. So maybe if you want to be a christian, to believe and have faith and leave it in the back of your mind when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of the truth.

Understanding is to a point and then there is a large gap for faith only. If you want to believe. BELIEVE. Otherwise you'll be 

That's a good point. I am reminded of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus and asked about eternal life. He understood Jesus' answer. He did not believe and went away  .

It all comes down to MY WILL vs HIS WILL.  For humanity: to lose is to win and to win is to lose.

In the case of the rich young ruler, he understood that Jesus was asking him to choose between serving God and serving wealth.  He could not give up his riches, so he walked away from Jesus.  Like OOJ said, it's about my will vs. His will.

But I don't think that was exactly Doherty's point: it seems to me he's saying that if you want to serve God, you're better off with blind obedience - because if you understand too much, you may start asking too many questions, and end up walking away from God if they aren't answered satisfactorily.

It is my opinion that belief is not supposed to be easy; belief is supposed to be, at times at least, .  Belief is to be engaged.  Jacob was renamed Israel because he wrestled with God.

That makes sense.

[doogie]

I stand by my quote "The Bible Is More A Book To Be Believed Than Understood."

Obviously, a certain level of understanding is intrinsic to belief.

There are many who profess to "understand" scripture that do not really believe it.  Or, they fail to "correctly divide" the Word of God, but instead do as Peter warned in 2 Peter 3: 15-16:

15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

My point in making the statement in it's original context is the same as what I will say now - namely that there are some who love to argue and defend THEIR interpretation of a particular scripture or topic, but in their efforts to appear "theological" miss out on simple truth, emanating from the very scriptures they are "wresting" to their own demise.

Shalom.

[onli-one-jehovi]

I stand by my quote "The Bible Is More A Book To Be Believed Than Understood."

Obviously, a certain level of understanding is intrinsic to belief.

There are many who profess to "understand" scripture that do not really believe it.  Or, they fail to "correctly divide" the Word of God, but instead do as Peter warned in 2 Peter 3: 15-16:

15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

My point in making the statement in it's original context is the same as what I will say now - namely that there are some who love to argue and defend THEIR interpretation of a particular scripture or topic, but in their efforts to appear "theological" miss out on simple truth, emanating from the very scriptures they are "wresting" to their own demise.
Shalom.

Which is why it is so very important for those who believe to understand. If "I" believe the Bible is true, then "I" will ask the Lord to open my understanding {which scripture records Him doing} and give "me" the wisdom to discern proper division of the Word. If "I" understand what "I" believe, then it is a far simpler task to ferret out and recognize the carnal interpretations and errors.

Otherwise, "I" remain trapped in religious relationship wherein "I" depend solely upon "another's" {THE MINISTRY} understanding. "I" am no better off than all the God-fearing-people who lived before Jesus came.

I refuse to do that anymore. I must understand as well as believe.

[doogie]

Let me make this real clear, again:

Understanding is intrinsic to belief.  How can I belive if I do not have at least a basic understanding of what I proport to believe?

My comments are directed toward those delusional souls who wrest and twist scripture to fit their world viiew. 

While I believe we all must study and know the scripture to be saved, that does not diminish the role of a pastor in our lives.

[onli-one-jehovi]

Let me make this real clear, again:

Understanding is intrinsic to belief.  How can I belive if I do not have at least a basic understanding of what I proport to believe?

My comments are directed toward those delusional souls who wrest and twist scripture to fit their world viiew. 

While I believe we all must study and know the scripture to be saved, that does not diminish the role of a pastor in our lives.

Oh, ok.

A pastor is helpful in our lives. Yet, how long does the role hold importance? Doesn't scripture tell us that you do not need any man to teach you, but the Lord will teach you? Doesn't scripture tell us that the role of pastor is a gift to the Body to help bring to maturity in Christ?

Seems like the role of ministry diminishes sharply. If it doesn't, isn't that signaling immaturity and continual need for milk? Not counting revealing an unscriptural dependence upon a religious system.

[doogie]

Uhmmm, ok.

My point in making the statement in it's original context is the same as what I will say now - namely that there are some who love to argue and defend THEIR interpretation of a particular scripture or topic, but in their efforts to appear "theological" miss out on simple truth, emanating from the very scriptures they are "wresting" to their own demise.

[Rattlesnake]

You're pastor will give account for you're soul, that's how long his influence will be in you're life.

[onli-one-jehovi]

You're pastor will give account for you're soul, that's how long his influence will be in you're life.

Scripture?

[Rattlesnake]

Yes,

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17

Need more?

[onli-one-jehovi]

Yes,

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb. 13 : 17

Need more?

Sure.  And examples in scripture.

[Rattlesnake]

Let me make this real clear, again:

Understanding is intrinsic to belief.  How can I belive if I do not have at least a basic understanding of what I proport to believe?

My comments are directed toward those delusional souls who wrest and twist scripture to fit their world viiew. 

While I believe we all must study and know the scripture to be saved, that does not diminish the role of a pastor in our lives.

Oh, ok.

A pastor is helpful in our lives. Yet, how long does the role hold importance? Doesn't scripture tell us that you do not need any man to teach you, but the Lord will teach you? Doesn't scripture tell us that the role of pastor is a gift to the Body to help bring to maturity in Christ?

Seems like the role of ministry diminishes sharply. If it doesn't, isn't that signaling immaturity and continual need for milk? Not counting revealing an unscriptural dependence upon a religious system.

Spiritual innmaturity and a continual need for milk does not apply to saints and preachers alike that have spent years under the direction of a pastor, on their knees, interceeding for the lost and the hurting of this world, and should not be included in the same sentence out of respect and reverence. ! I thank God for the so called "spiritual innmature" that have sent many prayers on my behalf, touching God for me when I did not even know who he was! Had it not been for those, I would not be where I am today. Many of you're saints that have been in the same church and under the same Pastor for years are some of the most stable and mature people in the Lord, who's prayers reach heaven long before the one's of us who think we are beyond teaching and submission. One more thing, Pastors are not one of the spiritual gifts, the Pastorship is a God appointed office.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.