I just spent almost 3 weeks in the hospital due to a medical condition I have. 3 days after being there I was roomed up with a lady that has the same thing. Her grandfather, who is 91 came and sat with her almost daily. Her grandfather and I, over that period of time had some very interesting conversations, that has got me thinking.
He grew up in the early days of this pentecostal movement and was in it until I think he said his early 30s. He was telling me some stories, not secondhand but stuff he saw for himself, of people being healed, like a young man that was paralysed from a fall as a kid, and due to lack of use both his legs had become stiff and not even where they appeared to be usable. He came to a meeting and was anointed and prayed for by several men. He not only got up and started walking but started running around the tent. Thats just one of many stories he personally witnessed. He was telling of how people came in and the spirit would be so strong, that the alters would just fill up with people wanting what the others had. And that back then you did not have people tarrying for the Holy Ghost, It was they got it right then like in acts as he put it. He says the power of God was so strong. There was no doubt what it was and even people walking by knew something was there.
He was telling me also they had daily prayer meetings, some that would last into the wee hours of the morning. Church did not end at 9pm but many times would end around midnight or later.
Thats just a bit of things he was telling me about Church back then
Anyways he told me in his 30s, he got caught up to as he put it, moving to the city and running a store there. Well through that church was not important in his mind. and he said with him not raising his kids in church. He has 2 out of his 4 kids that re found this on their own and has 5 grandkids and 2 great grandkids in church.
He has told me every few years he has had an inkling to go and will go to an apostolic church and he says while he likes it. Its nothing like back in the old days. And he broke down sobbing and was telling me how much it hurts him that he just wants to find what they had back then.
Two months ago. They had a bday party for him and while there he heard his grandson saying how glad he was that church had been condensed to one service on sunday due to gas being too much and that they canceled the one prayer meeting too they had each week because no one would come.
He said the last church service he attended. There was an evangelist preaching and the preacher came and sat on the pew in front of him and at 8:45 was looking at the evangelist and when he made eye contact raised up his arm a bit and taped on his watch and it was then the evangelist made the alter call and they were out of church in 5 min after that.
You would have to get to know this guy, but he was not complaining but rather he was in tears alot wishing he could find what the church had back then.
What has changed? Has the church changed?
An interesting side note, He was telling me the group he was with was located in Alabama and his preacher then had never heard of azusa street or any of the movements as news didn't travel well as he put it out in the boondocks but that God started pouring out the spirit there and even reveled the need for baptism and it being in Jesus name back around 1910
I think one thing that has changed is that the people of God now desire less a genuine move of God than we desire a nice, tidy "church service" where more or less the same things always happen and we always finish about the same time. We desire less a real, life-changing expression of Christ through the assembly of His Body than we desire an event where other people do most of the work, and we can just sit back and enjoy the show. We desire less to have real, meaningful, potentially messy relationships with others in the family of God than we desire relatively superficial relationships where we don't have to do much more than say "Praise the Lord" while shaking people's hands on Sunday mornings.
It amazed me some of the things he said he seen back then. Hes been out since his 30s and now at his age he dont see it as the same church that was back then.
Is it possible for the church to go back to what we seen back then or are just a modern version?
Just some stuff that talking to him so much got in my mind
Even is the church as a whole willing to make the sacrifices they did back then?
Please pray for me. I have been out myself and talking to this guy has made me think alot myself
Angela
Also plz pray for him. His name is Hubert
Angela:
I am by no means "right" enough with God to cast judgment on the local assemblies as a whole. I am as guilty as others, at times, of church being "routine". I got in that rut for about a year. It just seems the thing to do when it seems everyone else is doing it; when everyone else neglects the things that made church what it was in this man's early life.
However, God mercifully prods me as needed and He shows me people who still have the passion they knew years ago. They still pray and fast and seek God. They may not be altering the services and restoring those long nights in services and prayer meetings, etc; but they are still seeking God. It reminds me of the prophet who thought he was the only one left serving God. It sure looked like it on the outside, but God knew differently.
I have got to stay focused on Him and not others. Others will fail and disappoint. They will not "pull their weight" or exhibit concern for the local assembly. But, there are those who are enduring in a time of extreme apathy, complacency and selfishness (always wanting something instead of desiring to give something to the service/God). I am struggling to keep my eyes on Calvary and on the hope of His return. I can't let what others are doing keep me out of heaven!!
I've got to pray, deny myself, seek His will and direction and be obedient to the man He has put me under. Not easy. In fact it's just downright difficult at times. But, I keep asking for mercy and grace. If my heart is right, He will provide them both. I have that confidence in Him.
Hang in there. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. But....so what? I promise you it WILL be worth it!!!
wow!! OGIA that was a gooden. i couldnt top it or even give much more advise except to not look upon the church's time settings if you or he wants to pray, letem cut the lights out and you or he could pray at home. have charity and go out into the highway and hedges, and like OGIA says be obedient and keep your eyes on calvary. i too knew a church that stayed till the wee hours. my thoughts are that the apostolic churches are letting in more of the world and letting more of the standards slip, for i too am one tarrying to receive the gift.
I apologize if I sounded like I was judging. Wasn't my intention. Just after talking to this guy, It got me thinking
You didn't come across as judging. If you are referring to my post, I started it that way as a disclaimer to indicate that I didn't want to come across as the judge of what is called "church" today. I took your post as sincere and concerned. I am, too. :grin:
Quote from: OGIA on September 03, 2008, 01:46:12 AM
You didn't come across as judging. If you are referring to my post, I started it that way as a disclaimer to indicate that I didn't want to come across as the judge of what is called "church" today. I took your post as sincere and concerned. I am, too. :grin:
dito!! i just added that it seems the church is more worried about the world and its time schedule than "haveing church" as in the ole days.
Or just sick of people. Tired of interaction and putting forth more effort for a cause we don't really believe in. I don't have enough faith or will power or desire to even want to go to a church service that lasts all day and all night. I'm too selfish, I have too much to do, I'm sick of fighting with a screaming baby all service to the point that I'd rather not go most of the time. I know I'm wrong, but that doesn't change things.
here's some things I'd venture to say has changed...
1) As a whole Christians don't put much time anymore into developing a personal relationship with God. For years my own relationship with God consisted of the list of church activities I was involved in and what little praying we did at church. It wasn't until recent years that I've started trying to develop the daily disciplines of prayer and Bible study. Our daily lives have become more bogged down with other interests and responsiblities that we tend to neglect daily time with God.
2) We've exchanged deep studies of the word of God for something thats little more than a motivational speech with a few verses tucked in.
3) Seems we've exchanged encouragement and love for guilt trips and fear as the ways to motivate people.
Quote from: iridiscente on September 03, 2008, 06:01:06 PM
Or just sick of people. Tired of interaction and putting forth more effort for a cause we don't really believe in.
The 2nd part of your statement here is very true. When doubts about any faith system begins to take root one of the first things it causes is the person not to put forth the whole hearted effort into supporting that faith system. If the causes of those doubts are never addressed, the doubter eventually either leaves that faith system, or keeps a facade of faith up to keep from rocking the boat.
So, what do we about it?
The first and main thing, of course, is personal: it's up to me to maintain my intimate relationship with God to the best of my ability.
It's also up to me to reach out to others and attempt to forge the relationships I wish to have with them; if I just wait for it happen on its own, it never will.
It's up to me to be as involved as I am able in my church, and to not let anyone make me feel guilty about those times I'm not able to contribute much - such as when my baby is fussy and requires my attention (my wife and I are currently often experiencing this :D).
Quote from: titushome on September 04, 2008, 01:38:28 PM
The first and main thing, of course, is personal: it's up to me to maintain my intimate relationship with God to the best of my ability.
It's also up to me to reach out to others and attempt to forge the relationships I wish to have with them; if I just wait for it happen on its own, it never will.
It's up to me to be as involved as I am able in my church, and to not let anyone make me feel guilty about those times I'm not able to contribute much - such as when my baby is fussy and requires my attention (my wife and I are currently often experiencing this :D).
Agreed.
Babies take priority. :teeth:
Quote from: titushome on August 30, 2008, 03:44:39 PM
I think one thing that has changed is that the people of God now desire less a genuine move of God than we desire a nice, tidy "church service" where more or less the same things always happen and we always finish about the same time. We desire less a real, life-changing expression of Christ through the assembly of His Body than we desire an event where other people do most of the work, and we can just sit back and enjoy the show. We desire less to have real, meaningful, potentially messy relationships with others in the family of God than we desire relatively superficial relationships where we don't have to do much more than say "Praise the Lord" while shaking people's hands on Sunday mornings.
That's about what I see. It is time to repent and get our lives right with God.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 04, 2008, 01:28:43 PM
So, what do we about it?
As Titus already pointed out I think doing something about it starts with us as individuals. We're the ones that need to recognize these issues in our own life and put forth effort to do something about them.
Another area I think we've changed is we've gotten the idea that quantity is better than quality. It seems to me our daily check list is focused on the wrong place as it consists of things like...
# of hours spent in prayer
# of hours spent studying the Bible
# of chapters read in the Bible
# of hours spent involved in church services and church activities
Lots of hours in these things is great if we're reaping good from the amount of time we spend in the activity. But if we're not getting much good from it we need to rethink our ideas and put them in terms of quality of what we're putting into it and getting out of it instead of the amount of time spent in the activity.
Quote from: ChangedByGod on August 30, 2008, 05:25:25 PM
It amazed me some of the things he said he seen back then. Hes been out since his 30s and now at his age he dont see it as the same church that was back then.
Is it possible for the church to go back to what we seen back then or are just a modern version?
Just some stuff that talking to him so much got in my mind
Even is the church as a whole willing to make the sacrifices they did back then?
Please pray for me. I have been out myself and talking to this guy has made me think alot myself
Angela
Also plz pray for him. His name is Hubert
The question should not be can Church be what it was back then. The question should be what am I going to do to make the Church more Spirit more alive in our services. God has not change, the people have changed. I am reminded of something I heard the other day. A woman put a note on the mirror of her bathroom, it said "Revival starts with me". Everytime she went to get ready she seen the very one that she must be concerned about bringing in revival. As for can it be like it used to be, Yes if you and I are willing to pay the price.
Quote from: bsr on September 04, 2008, 12:41:53 PM
For years my own relationship with God consisted of the list of church activities I was involved in and what little praying we did at church. It wasn't until recent years that I've started trying to develop the daily disciplines of prayer and Bible study. Our daily lives have become more bogged down with other interests and responsiblities that we tend to neglect daily time with God.
2) We've exchanged deep studies of the word of God for something thats little more than a motivational speech with a few verses tucked in.
3) Seems we've exchanged encouragement and love for guilt trips and fear as the ways to motivate people.
Isn't it amazing how we can get so wrapped up in our Church activities we forget what we there for in the first place. Not just you bsr, but all of us can so engrossed in the Work of the Lord we forget the Lord.
Quote from: bsr on September 04, 2008, 02:05:55 PM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 04, 2008, 01:28:43 PM
So, what do we about it?
As Titus already pointed out I think doing something about it starts with us as individuals. We're the ones that need to recognize these issues in our own life and put forth effort to do something about them.
Another area I think we've changed is we've gotten the idea that quantity is better than quality. It seems to me our daily check list is focused on the wrong place as it consists of things like...
# of hours spent in prayer
# of hours spent studying the Bible
# of chapters read in the Bible
# of hours spent involved in church services and church activities
Lots of hours in these things is great if we're reaping good from the amount of time we spend in the activity. But if we're not getting much good from it we need to rethink our ideas and put them in terms of quality of what we're putting into it and getting out of it instead of the amount of time spent in the activity.
Again right on!! Many times we read our Bible, pray, and do the other things just because we fell it is the right thing to do. But we should do them desiring a closer walk with God and seeking true Revival.
Also for the record I like the unity on this thread. I feel something good can come out of it, as I see we are looking to ourselves for the problem.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 04, 2008, 02:18:17 PM
Also for the record I like the unity on this thread. I feel something good can come out of it, as I see we are looking to ourselves for the problem.
I like that too.
Isn't it a difference between following Church and following Christ?
Even the man in question admitted to leaving his first love. He got "caught up".
Maybe too many early Pentecostals got "caught up" too, abandoning Christ and didn't leave the kind of legacy in the Church that the man is now seeking but not finding in modern congregations?
Quote from: iridiscente on September 03, 2008, 06:01:06 PM
Or just sick of people. Tired of interaction and putting forth more effort for a cause we don't really believe in.
Wow That right thre just reminded me of a preacher that preached a revival when I was a teen. He spent the whole week with the topic " How much do we believe what we say we believe". Was sorta stuff like Do we believe things enoygh to take action,. Was different sermons but he stuck to that topic. Just thinking about it got me thinking if I still believe as I say I do even not being in church, Why am I not doing anything
Quote from: bsr on September 04, 2008, 02:05:55 PM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 04, 2008, 01:28:43 PM
So, what do we about it?
As Titus already pointed out I think doing something about it starts with us as individuals. We're the ones that need to recognize these issues in our own life and put forth effort to do something about them.
Another area I think we've changed is we've gotten the idea that quantity is better than quality. It seems to me our daily check list is focused on the wrong place as it consists of things like...
# of hours spent in prayer
# of hours spent studying the Bible
# of chapters read in the Bible
# of hours spent involved in church services and church activities
Lots of hours in these things is great if we're reaping good from the amount of time we spend in the activity. But if we're not getting much good from it we need to rethink our ideas and put them in terms of quality of what we're putting into it and getting out of it instead of the amount of time spent in the activity.
True I guess its mre why do we do as we do not what do we do
Quote from: Raven180 on September 04, 2008, 09:57:38 PM
Isn't it a difference between following Church and following Christ?
Even the man in question admitted to leaving his first love. He got "caught up".
Maybe too many early Pentecostals got "caught up" too, abandoning Christ and didn't leave the kind of legacy in the Church that the man is now seeking but not finding in modern congregations?
I guess things change slowly so if he stayed in it, it might not have been so noticable to him, but he was out so long that to him its like night and day.
You know I do believe God put his daughter in the same room as me as I have been so sick lately, I have just been ready to give up and die. I dont know, just talking to him has been an inspiration to me. Me and his daughter have become friends so hopefully I will see more of Hubert
wow! hang in there. :thumbsup2:
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 05, 2008, 12:09:30 AM
I guess things change slowly so if he stayed in it, it might not have been so noticable to him, but he was out so long that to him its like night and day.
The danger is when become comfortable in our surroundings. It is said you can take a frog and put in a pot of boiling water he will jump out. But if you put him in cold water and slowly heat the water to a boil he sit there until he cooks to death. As we sit in church and the surroundings slowly change we don't notice it. After a while what we held dear no longer matters. Also the further we get from our roots the more we are willing to settle for less. I remember a time in my life that I was 210 lbs and wnated to lose weight. Now if I could just get down to 210 I would be happy. The same thing happens to us in our walk with God. We get to the place where will settle for less than what we used to expect out of our Christian life. We settle for ourselves doing less.
also another point I wanted to make. I was recently talking to a man who was critical about his Pastor and the standards his Pastor was teaching. Yet the Pastor was teaching higher standards than the man was living. He was using what he was finding fault with as an uncuse to stay out of church or begin to find another Church. Sometimes maybe the Church hasn't changed as much as we have changed.
Sometimes we are the one thats changed. Its very easy to get bored, critical, angry, offended, ect and any of those will change how we perceive the church.
Also makes me wonder if the church and Christians have fallen into the same trap the Judiazers of Paul's day fell into - attempting to bind a yoke on the disciples that is impossible to bear. Feeling overwhelmed by a list of expectations that can't be met definatley would effect a person's desire to be involved in the church.
Quote from: bsr on September 05, 2008, 01:19:32 AM
Also makes me wonder if the church and Christians have fallen into the same trap the Judiazers of Paul's day fell into - attempting to bind a yoke on the disciples that is impossible to bear. Feeling overwhelmed by a list of expectations that can't be met definatley would effect a person's desire to be involved in the church.
My Pastor that I sit under while working on getting into the Ministry always told me "never draw the circle so tight you can't even live within it yourself". So true, so let us get down on our knees or our backs or sit in a chair whatever your mode is and let us begin to pray search me Lord. Revival must start with me.
:offtopic:
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 05, 2008, 12:38:23 AM
It is said you can take a frog and put in a pot of boiling water he will jump out. But if you put him in cold water and slowly heat the water to a boil he sit there until he cooks to death.
That's actually a myth. Total fabrication. The frog will notice the heat, and will jump out.
The question was asked earlier "what can we do about it?" Here's one that come to mind...
Instead of shooting for several hours of Bible reading in a day, take a short period of time each day and dig deeper into a short passage of scripture. Look up meanings of any words your not familiar with. Meditate on what the writer of the passage was trying to convey to the person or group it was written to. Doing this may require looking into the cultural aspect of the people the passage was origionally written to. Then meditate on what the meaning of the passage shows in your own life and make any changes it shows you to make. All to often we just aimlessly read chapter after chapter after chapter but don't really stop to think about and anaylize what we've read and what it means for us as modern day Christians.
Quote from: titushome on September 05, 2008, 01:58:49 PM
:offtopic:
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 05, 2008, 12:38:23 AM
It is said you can take a frog and put in a pot of boiling water he will jump out. But if you put him in cold water and slowly heat the water to a boil he sit there until he cooks to death.
That's actually a myth. Total fabrication. The frog will notice the heat, and will jump out.
As I said it is said, haven't tryed it myself have you. Maybe next time I find a frog I will see.
Quote from: bsr on September 05, 2008, 02:39:47 PM
The question was asked earlier "what can we do about it?" Here's one that come to mind...
Instead of shooting for several hours of Bible reading in a day, take a short period of time each day and dig deeper into a short passage of scripture. Look up meanings of any words your not familiar with. Meditate on what the writer of the passage was trying to convey to the person or group it was written to. Doing this may require looking into the cultural aspect of the people the passage was origionally written to. Then meditate on what the meaning of the passage shows in your own life and make any changes it shows you to make. All to often we just aimlessly read chapter after chapter after chapter but don't really stop to think about and anaylize what we've read and what it means for us as modern day Christians.
This is why I don't like the BREAD program because all it does is gets you to read the Bible. Bible reading (and I think we should read the Bible from cover to cover) must take on meaning not just reading so I can say I have read the Bible from Gen. to Rev.
Quote from: bsr on September 05, 2008, 02:39:47 PM
...take a short period of time each day and dig deeper into a short passage of scripture. Look up meanings of any words your not familiar with. Meditate on what the writer of the passage was trying to convey to the person or group it was written to. Doing this may require looking into the cultural aspect of the people the passage was origionally written to. Then meditate on what the meaning of the passage shows in your own life and make any changes it shows you to make.
Excellent advice!
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 05, 2008, 06:07:30 PM
Quote from: titushome on September 05, 2008, 01:58:49 PM
:offtopic:
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 05, 2008, 12:38:23 AM
It is said you can take a frog and put in a pot of boiling water he will jump out. But if you put him in cold water and slowly heat the water to a boil he sit there until he cooks to death.
That's actually a myth. Total fabrication. The frog will notice the heat, and will jump out.
As I said it is said, haven't tryed it myself have you. Maybe next time I find a frog I will see.
I haven't tried it, and I don't need to. Someone else already has:
http://www.uga.edu/srel/ecoviews/ecoview021118.htm
I do think simple Bible reading is a good place to start as its rather hard to do deeper study on something you've not read.
Quote from: titushome on September 05, 2008, 07:27:09 PM
Quote from: bsr on September 05, 2008, 02:39:47 PM
...take a short period of time each day and dig deeper into a short passage of scripture. Look up meanings of any words your not familiar with. Meditate on what the writer of the passage was trying to convey to the person or group it was written to. Doing this may require looking into the cultural aspect of the people the passage was origionally written to. Then meditate on what the meaning of the passage shows in your own life and make any changes it shows you to make.
Excellent advice!
Ditto! :great:
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 05, 2008, 06:07:30 PM
Quote from: titushome on September 05, 2008, 01:58:49 PM
:offtopic:
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 05, 2008, 12:38:23 AM
It is said you can take a frog and put in a pot of boiling water he will jump out. But if you put him in cold water and slowly heat the water to a boil he sit there until he cooks to death.
That's actually a myth. Total fabrication. The frog will notice the heat, and will jump out.
As I said it is said, haven't tryed it myself have you. Maybe next time I find a frog I will see.
But the concept is true, easy to let things change slowly than a drastic change
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 05, 2008, 12:41:30 AM
also another point I wanted to make. I was recently talking to a man who was critical about his Pastor and the standards his Pastor was teaching. Yet the Pastor was teaching higher standards than the man was living. He was using what he was finding fault with as an uncuse to stay out of church or begin to find another Church. Sometimes maybe the Church hasn't changed as much as we have changed.
Didnt think of that one but true
Quote from: bsr on September 05, 2008, 07:47:57 PM
I do think simple Bible reading is a good place to start as its rather hard to do deeper study on something you've not read.
That is one thing I have started on more myself is just sittting and reading. Not by a chart but try to find a subject and read on it
I did get in contact with a church here and am going to try to go Sunday if I am not too sick
awesome
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 05, 2008, 11:18:01 PM
I did get in contact with a church here and am going to try to go Sunday if I am not too sick
Awesome, hope to hear a good report.
Quote from: bsr on September 05, 2008, 01:19:32 AM
Sometimes we are the one thats changed. Its very easy to get bored, critical, angry, offended, ect and any of those will change how we perceive the church.
Also makes me wonder if the church and Christians have fallen into the same trap the Judiazers of Paul's day fell into - attempting to bind a yoke on the disciples that is impossible to bear. Feeling overwhelmed by a list of expectations that can't be met definatley would effect a person's desire to be involved in the church.
Sometimes we are the one thats changed.This pretty much hits it on the head. The Day in which we are now living has accelerated the calling of the Remnant. Revelation warns us to come out of the Harlot Church System. Come out of spiritual Babylon's idolatrous ways and join in a pure relationship with the Son of God. This causes much change.
I also tend to believe that much of the anger, boredom, critisism, etc comes from men. The church system of today is overall geared to women. Services are filled with songs more attuned to romance, than worship. Songs of being showered with "blessings", much as a man wooing a woman. Men are left out. Men are consigned to "sitting on the bench" and relegated to being little more than "open wallets" of finances. This is another major cause for change.
Also makes me wonder if the church and Christians have fallen into the same trap the Judiazers of Paul's day fell into - attempting to bind a yoke on the disciples that is impossible to bear. Feeling overwhelmed by a list of expectations that can't be met definatley would effect a person's desire to be involved in the churchSo true. And not just in Pentecost. Thus the Lord allows such pressure to reveal the false and drive out the Remnant. Good observation bsr.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on September 06, 2008, 02:35:51 PM
I also tend to believe that much of the anger, boredom, critisism, etc comes from men. The church system of today is overall geared to women. Services are filled with songs more attuned to romance, than worship. Songs of being showered with "blessings", much as a man wooing a woman. Men are left out. Men are consigned to "sitting on the bench" and relegated to being little more than "open wallets" of finances. This is another major cause for change.
Your observation about the songs is very true too. I remember as a kid we commonly sang the old hymns and a lot of what I learned came from those old hymns. Services today tend to have mostly the 7/11 (7 words, sing them 11 times) songs that are more geared towards emotional appeal and a fast beat to dance to than really teaching an indepth concept through song. Have we forgotten that the New Testament commands us to teach and admonish in songs, hymns, and spiritual songs?
pentacostals used to draw huge crowds to their singing. ;)
Tia, I'd like to meet you in real life to study the bible together some day. You have good insight.
Quote from: iridiscente on September 07, 2008, 10:37:30 PM
Tia, I'd like to meet you in real life to study the bible together some day. You have good insight.
It would be cool to get together and study the Bible sometime. I love to discuss the Bible.
Society in general has changed dramatically, if not exponentially over the past 50-100 years. The choice we have as disciples of Christ is whether or not we are going to allow our surroundings to dictate our relationship with God or let our relationship with God dictate what happens in our surroundings.
Consider this:
If I dont think there is enough prayer going on in my church...
If I dont think there is enough worship going on during the song service...
If I dont think the saints are "getting behind" the preacher...
If I dont think there is enough outreach going on...
If I dont think the power of God is evident in our services...
Am I willing to step out by faith, break the ice and lead others by example?
Just food for thought...
ooo good words doogie!
Quote from: iridiscente on September 03, 2008, 06:01:06 PM
Or just sick of people. Tired of interaction and putting forth more effort for a cause we don't really believe in.
Was reading back through this and what iridiscente mentiones here is why my church involvement has become sporatic and half hearted and why I tend to drag my feet when pastor comes up with an idea like me teaching sunday school or going out and doing door to door visitation. Even my piano duties, I do about enough to get them by for worship service. I'm flat out tired of putting forth the effort when my heart isn't there.
Quote from: bsr on September 19, 2008, 05:28:31 AMWas reading back through this and what iridiscente mentiones here is why my church involvement has become sporatic and half hearted and why I tend to drag my feet when pastor comes up with an idea like me teaching sunday school or going out and doing door to door visitation. Even my piano duties, I do about enough to get them by for worship service. I'm flat out tired of putting forth the effort when my heart isn't there.
Jesus, when talking about the heart, said that where our treasure is, there also will be our heart. (See Matthew 6:21)
If you're heart is not there, maybe it's because those things are not where your "treasure" is, if you will.
So, then, where is your treasure?
Quote from: bsr on September 19, 2008, 05:28:31 AM
I'm flat out tired of putting forth the effort when my heart isn't there.
I have found that when ever I got to feeling that way it was usually because I felt isolated. The best way to fix this is to find an Apostolic rally or conference on evangelism and out reach. Somewhere there will be a good number of services and alot of people.
I know many people will say you need to go pray until you feel the right joy. Prayer is awesome and is needed, even Moses had to have Aaron and Hur hold up his arms.
I agree with Brother Dad about the feelings of isolation being a likely cause. But I think maybe attending a rally with lots of people isn't the answer. Instead, I would try to forge more intimate relationships with people in my own church. It's lack of intimacy that results in feelings of isolation.
Quote from: titushome on September 19, 2008, 01:55:04 PM
It's lack of intimacy that results in feelings of isolation.
Amen, just find a friend in Church. Also I recommend reading the thread "Humble Pie".
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 19, 2008, 02:12:33 PM
Quote from: titushome on September 19, 2008, 01:55:04 PM
It's lack of intimacy that results in feelings of isolation.
Amen, just find a friend in Church. Also I recommend reading the thread "Humble Pie".
That's a great thread!
Hope its ok to throw a thought in here
Could the biggest change be in our heart?
Quote from: Tricia Lea on September 19, 2008, 02:24:24 PM
Hope its ok to throw a thought in here
Could the biggest change be in our heart?
I am sure the biggest change is in our heart when we go to feeling that way. However we must be careful not to listen to our heart all the time. Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
We must be sure our heart is not leading us to self satisfaction.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 19, 2008, 01:12:58 PM
Quote from: bsr on September 19, 2008, 05:28:31 AM
I'm flat out tired of putting forth the effort when my heart isn't there.
I have found that when ever I got to feeling that way it was usually because I felt isolated. The best way to fix this is to find an Apostolic rally or conference on evangelism and out reach. Somewhere there will be a good number of services and alot of people.
For some feeling socially isolated is what causes their heart to turn to someplace else. For those in that boat yes they should reach out and make friends. Those around should also try to reach out to that person if it becomes apparent that they're socially isolating themself. Other things can cause a person's heart to turn away from a particular church or group. Here's a few...
1) Emotional collapse under the weight of expectations that can't be lived up to. When a person constantly hears "Your not good enough", that takes its toll and sooner or later it will either destroy them or they'll look elsewhere to find approval and encouragement.
2) doctrinal differences... A person won't stay for very long where they don't agree with whats being taught or practiced. If they do stay there to please family and such, they won't be putting their full heart and effort into participating and bringing others into the group.
I just remembered I had some files that Tia had sent me...while not very long in length, she put alot of thought into them.
Quote from: [{(nwlife)}] on September 19, 2008, 04:04:10 PM
I just remembered I had some files that Tia had sent me...while not very long in length, she put alot of thought into them.
I don't even remember what I sent you :o Been too long ago
Wasn't it something about a proposal? LOL! Just kidding!!!! :laughhard:
IT was some files with a chart on HG baptism and some of your thoughts on it.
Quote from: bsr on September 19, 2008, 03:58:55 PM
For some feeling socially isolated is what causes their heart to turn to someplace else. For those in that boat yes they should reach out and make friends. Those around should also try to reach out to that person if it becomes apparent that they're socially isolating themself. Other things can cause a person's heart to turn away from a particular church or group. Here's a few...
1) Emotional collapse under the weight of expectations that can't be lived up to. When a person constantly hears "Your not good enough", that takes its toll and sooner or later it will either destroy them or they'll look elsewhere to find approval and encouragement.
2) doctrinal differences... A person won't stay for very long where they don't agree with whats being taught or practiced. If they do stay there to please family and such, they won't be putting their full heart and effort into participating and bringing others into the group.
In reality number 1 above can cause number 2. When we become burnt out on trying to please everyone, we begin to question the very things they stand for. You are right the Church should be reaching out for those they see slipping into isolation and not become judgmental toward them. As I said earlier even Moses needed someone to hold his arms up. If you were closer Sister Mom and I would have you come over for supper and become a friend to you, But since your not I guess I will just have to try and encourage you from where we are. I will be praying that God blesses you and encourages you as well.
Its very common for cases of doctrinal difference to start out as cases emotional collapse from overbearing expectations - probably more so among those that have been raised in that religious teaching.
For the 3 cases we've been talking about... social isolation, emotoinal collapse from expectations, and doctrinal differences this scripture would apply
Galatians 6:1 (KJV)
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
If a person is trying to pull away from the social network of the church, step in and try to bring them back into fellowship and show them that you care.
If someone is being shoved out of the social network, step in and try to deal with the ones that are pushing that person away from the church.
If a person has suffered emotoinal collapse due to expectations or due to being hurt by someone in the church, try to bridge the gap of forgiveness and healing.
If a person is heading off into false doctrine, attempt in kindness to bring them back around to the true doctrine.
If both emotional and doctrinal componets are involved, the emotoinal componet has to be dealt with first usually before the doctrinal componet can be dealt with.
Quote from: bsr on September 19, 2008, 05:22:45 PM
For the 3 cases we've been talking about... social isolation, emotoinal collapse from expectations, and doctrinal differences this scripture would apply
Galatians 6:1 (KJV)
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
If a person is trying to pull away from the social network of the church, step in and try to bring them back into fellowship and show them that you care.
If someone is being shoved out of the social network, step in and try to deal with the ones that are pushing that person away from the church.
If a person has suffered emotoinal collapse due to expectations or due to being hurt by someone in the church, try to bridge the gap of forgiveness and healing.
If a person is heading off into false doctrine, attempt in kindness to bring them back around to the true doctrine.
If both emotional and doctrinal componets are involved, the emotoinal componet has to be dealt with first usually before the doctrinal componet can be dealt with.
These are awesome thoughts and I agree with everyone of them I am going to save them in my computer so I may can use them to teach with someday. If the Church needs to ask god to open our eyes so we may see the hurting people. The devil likes to attack our wounded souls. Thank you BSR for laying this out in such a way. I really agree with dealing with the emotional first. When I have preached for years that Jesus became a friend first. Then He became salvation. We need to befriend people first then they will be more open to doctrine. God Bless You
Friendship evangelism... They don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
BSR has posted some great thoughts. It makes my mind realize the Church needs to check our LOVE level. I think one thing that has changed is the way we love and care one for another.
One of the greatest things about the GP meet up in IN back in April was the love we all showed to one another. we had just meet many of us for the first time and you could feel the family ties.
have we gotten a reputation for abandoning our wounded? Are we being like the priest and the levite in the story of the good samaritian and leaving the job of binding up wounds to those that aren't even part of the faith? Who do you suppose the person will cling to... those that passed by on the other side of the road and ignored their need or those that cared enough to stop and help them? If the ones that cared about them are part of another faith, don't be surprised if that person becomes part of that other faith shortly down the line.
Quote from: bsr on September 19, 2008, 05:41:36 PM
have we gotten a reputation for abandoning our wounded? Are we being like the priest and the levite in the case of the good samaritian and leaving the job of binding up wounds to those that aren't even part of the faith? Who do you suppose the person will cling to... those that passed by on the other side of the road and ignored their need or those that cared enough to stop and help them? If the ones that cared about them are part of another faith, don't be surprised if that person becomes part of that other faith shortly down the line.
This so true. We must take time to pick up our wounded. I think that sometimes we are so concerned about how many new folks we can get baptized, we forget about those God has trusted us with. I am all for soul winning, but what does it advantage us to if we don't take care of the ones we have. New people would come in more easily when they see we really love one another. I encourage us all to reach out to those in our own church and lift them up. Sometimes all it takes is letting someone know you care.
John 13:35 KJV
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Mybe also some who are wounded in the church have seen how others that are wounded have been treated and they themselves start reaching out for help other places besides their church, being afraid to reach out to their own
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 19, 2008, 05:59:18 PM
Mybe also some who are wounded in the church have seen how others that are wounded have been treated and they themselves start reaching out for help other places besides their church, being afraid to reach out to their own
This very true. Even more true for those whose family is in the ministry. They can get a sense of helplessness because they feel there is no one to talk to. This is why we need to pray and ask God to open our eyes so we may see the husrting. It is not easy for someone to ask for help. Love would reach out remember John 3:16.
True
And sadly some people are afraid to reach out asking for help that by the time the people in the church realize somthings wrong, They are gone, either to the world or a false church.
The devil wants us to feel isolated, If we are he can send those he wants to "help" us
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 19, 2008, 06:04:38 PM
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 19, 2008, 05:59:18 PM
Mybe also some who are wounded in the church have seen how others that are wounded have been treated and they themselves start reaching out for help other places besides their church, being afraid to reach out to their own
This very true. Even more true for those whose family is in the ministry. They can get a sense of helplessness because they feel there is no one to talk to.
What Bro Dad says is so true. All too often a minister or pastor is so involved in his ministry that he neglects to minister to those that are most important to him... his family. Then he wonders later why his wife leaves him for someone else or why his kids leave the church and turn bitter towards the church. This could also go for non ministry families that are heavily involved in the church.
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 19, 2008, 06:11:01 PM
True
And sadly some people are afraid to reach out asking for help that by the time the people in the church realize somthings wrong, They are gone, either to the world or a false church.
could this be because when they or someone close to them did reach out for help, those that should have been helping ignored them or even pushed them away? If you or someone close to you has already been ignored or pushed away by a ministry or church when seeking help, are you likely to try again to seek help from that ministry or church? A hurting person who is turned away will eventually get to where they won't reach out for help anymore.
A hurting person can also eventually get to where they'll push away any attempts to help them.
Quote from: bsr on September 19, 2008, 07:01:14 PM
A hurting person can also eventually get to where they'll push away any attempts to help them.
This does not excuse me from giving my very best effort to let the hurt person know I care. Also the Lord teaches forgiveness so a hurt person would either have to wind up lost or find a place of forgiveness and pray for those who ignored them in their time of need. Also a hurt person could use their experience to better help others in the future. There is no way they could even feel comfortable in false doctrine as long as hatred is in their hearts.
This topic brought up somthing I remember hearing preached a long time ago.
The preacher was refering to how many will use the parable of the prodigals son to say when they are ready they will come back but if you think about it there is one parable of that happening and yet there are 2 parables of the backsliders being sought
Luke 15:3-10 (KJV)3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost. 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
He said many times we forget its our job as a church to go find and bring them back. We get the attitude they left let them come back
Yes we can set and see where the Church is falling short. The Big qeustion is what am I going to do about it. Maybe sometimes when we feel hurt and isolated, we can look around for someone hurting more than I am. My lifting up someone else it might make me a new friend as well as saving a Child of God.
Outreach is very inportant to the growth of a Church but we must not forget about inreach. Inreach where we are reaching for each other in the body of Christ.
I know this may be rare but I remember hearing of a church that had a ministry specificly targeting backsliders
I know when I pastored sometimes when we had outreach we just went and visited the folks who have not been coming to Church. We must bring in new folks, but also must do our best to keep the body together.
I would suggest we all ask ourselves these questions.
1. What am I expecting from Church?
2. What am I willing to give to Church?
If we would ask ourselves these two question I feel we would look at Church a little different.
Can I join?
Come one come all, let us encourage one another. We need each other.
Thanks Bro. Dad!
bsr did make some very enlighting comments! It would behoove us all, as Bro. Dad so eloquently put it, "to check our love level"! Out reach is a great thing and is needed very much, but if we do not have an inreach, how will we expect to keep the ones who are brought in by the out reach!!! Well said Bro. Dad and bsr!!
One thing we must be careful about is not wearing our feelings on our shirt sleeve. Remember this is about Jesus. We all will become hurt from time to time, I know I have been hurt. But Church is not about me, but about Jesus Christ. I must remember what I am going for so that I may be a blessing to others. I remember when I was a kid sometimes I would get a sore and it would itch. My mom would say don't scratch it or you will have a scar. This is true in our Spiritual life as well. When we become hurt if we scratch the sore place everytime we get the chance we make it worse. After a while we will have a scar for life. I have found when I get hurt just to talk to God that much more. When I feel longly reach out to someone. When I try to lift up someone else and help them carry their burden, then mine seems to become so much lighter.
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 20, 2008, 02:47:43 PM
I know this may be rare but I remember hearing of a church that had a ministry specificly targeting backsliders
Good ministry to backsliders is actually a very rare thing from what I've experienced. In my time being unstable and even completley quitting the Apostolic faith here's what I discovered...
1) most churches will only call the person a time or two to find out whats going on when that person leaves the church. I actually had a church that never even bothered to call to find out whats going on. That particular church taught that if someone left the church they were to be considered as a bowel movement and not needed.
2) when I completley left the apostolic faith and moved to go to college, the churches in the area of the college didn't even know I was around and didn't even make contact with me until after I'd gone to visit a service there. Then even after I'd visited a service they sometimes didn't seem to be too interested in actively trying to minister to me.
3) I've also found that alot of churches don't take initative to help the backslider or soon to be backslider break the fear barrier that keeps them from going to the alter and praying. Been in lots of services that I wanted to go pray but I was too terrified to step out.
Quote from: bsr on September 20, 2008, 03:31:41 PM
Been in lots of services that I wanted to go pray but I was too terrified to step out.
What would you like to see done to fix this? How could the Church better serve those who have backslid? Maybe you and God could channel your own experiences into something positive that would help the Church.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 20, 2008, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: bsr on September 19, 2008, 07:01:14 PM
A hurting person can also eventually get to where they'll push away any attempts to help them.
This does not excuse me from giving my very best effort to let the hurt person know I care. Also the Lord teaches forgiveness so a hurt person would either have to wind up lost or find a place of forgiveness and pray for those who ignored them in their time of need. Also a hurt person could use their experience to better help others in the future. There is no way they could even feel comfortable in false doctrine as long as hatred is in their hearts.
Your right, just because the person pushes us away doesn't excuse us from trying to help the hurting person. Actually those that have progressed to that point need someone who's persistant in praying and showing care. Ultimately it is the individuals decision whether or not they'll let hurt destroy them.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 20, 2008, 03:40:25 PM
Quote from: bsr on September 20, 2008, 03:31:41 PM
Been in lots of services that I wanted to go pray but I was too terrified to step out.
What would you like to see done to fix this? How could the Church better serve those who have backslid?
As far as alter calls, a church should have a few seasoned saints that are willing to be the ice breakers by going to the alter so the person doesn't feel like they have to be up there alone as a spectacle in front of everyone. Also if you notice someone in the crowd that you know is struggling in their walk with God or has been out of the church for a while, just simply stepping over to them and asking "would you like to go pray" and being willing to go up with them is all the ice breaker some need.
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 20, 2008, 03:07:08 PM
bsr did make some very enlighting comments!
The comments I've made on here is my obervations from my own journey through emotional collapse, bitterness, questioning the doctrine, seeking help, not finding the help I needed, and eventually turning away from the apostolic teachings.
If you will excuse me bro's and sistersin the Lord, I have to go to the bank, I shall return shortly. Please pray for me, I was supposed to sing for the Woodmen of the world today, but can hardly talk this morning! Bronchitis at it's worst!!!
Quote from: bsr on September 20, 2008, 03:59:36 PM
Quote from: Rattlesnake on September 20, 2008, 03:07:08 PM
bsr did make some very enlighting comments!
The comments I've made on here is my obervations from my own journey through emotional collapse, bitterness, questioning the doctrine, seeking help, not finding the help I needed, and eventually turning away from the apostolic teachings.
I would have to say realizing the problem and where it lies is the first step but not the only step and BSR I am not just refering to you but I myself am in the process of trying to return too, I am realizing the second step is even harder.
What are we going to do from here? Believe me I know its easy to sit and dwell on whats wrong, but I know I am trying to get to focus more on what can I do to make it right in my life. Those that have hurt me are not the ones that are going to have to face God on my behalf. I am. Believe me I know the moving on part is hard but we need to fight for what we know is right.
It maay be a struggle but wont it be worth it in the end?
Here are a couple things I found online I think speak volumes
QuoteCry of a Backslider
Have you ever wondered what goes thru the mind of a backslider, do they ever think about God? Does God ever deal with them??? Do they miss the things of God?? To all of these questions the answer is yes.
So many times backsliders are looking for someone that cares, someone who is not afraid to speak to them about the goodness of God, of his Love, and not whats wrong in the church. Some backsliders leave because they were not allowed enought time to be grounded in truth, others because of things that happen they don't understand.
Does it always take preaching the Word to these to see them saved. In truth there is nothing you can preach or say that will move them. Let me explain ......when a backslider leaves God, God doesn't leave them, He is sealed to them, they wear the Name of God Almighty in baptism.
Though God may not dwell within them because of some sin, He said I will never leave you nor forsake you. If you were to ask any backslider what they feel, many, if they were honest, would tell you, miserable. You see God can't use them, because of the state they're in and the Devil doesn't want them. So to eliminate these feelings many backsliders turn to the beggerly elements of the world, drinking, drugs, or anything else that will remove the emptiness within them.
Have You ever wondered what battles the backslider must face everyday? Knowing that within him is the knowledge of the One True God. Yet for all of this, here he sits in a backslidden condition unable to make his way back to Calvary. The is a struggle everyday just to face the world and know that he really doesn't fit in it for on him is the precious name of Jesus.
How many times does he say to himself, "I need to go back to church", only to have the enemy of his soul send something to distract him. How many times has he walked or driven by the church and heard the singing and preaching and started to go in, only at the last minute to turn away. Once more defeated by the enemy of his soul.
You see the life of a backslider is one of turmoil. Never able to come to grips with the desire to completely make a change and turn himself around. Always looking, always listening, trying to stay as close to those in the church without he himself having to make that dedication.
Many nights as he sits in his lonely world trying to remove the craving and desire to live for God, he falls upon the beggerly elements of this world to take away his pain, never really able to drown out the voice of God calling, even in his sinful binge.
Each drink, each drug, or any other sinful thing is there solely for the purpose of deadening the pain of knowing that they are bound for hell and can't seem to get off this roller-coaster ride.
When he finally gets the nerve to one day darken the doors of church, the struggle that goes on within him only grows stronger. He has made the first step....some people never really realize how hard it is even for the backslider to get this far.
Then the fight begins, for you see, the minute the backslider steps through the door there is a tug upon his soul, a drawing that happens that no one can see, yet for all of this he stands feeling unworthy to even be in God's house, let alone asking God for his help. Standing knuckles white from grasping the pew in front of him the battle rages.
He knows that all it will take is letting go of the pew and God will do the rest. But for everything within him he can't seem to release his grip and the battle continues. Torn between the love he truly feels for God and feeling the guilt of the sins he has committed, he is spell bound, unable to make that move for deliverance. Yet God continues to call, to draw, to show his love for this child who has strayed from the fold.
Finally the time has come, he must make a decision. Sometimes his direction will lead to an alter where tears of repentance flows. Other times, sad to say, the steps of this lost child are toward the door thankful to once again be released from the call of the Master.
Knowing full well that later that night the cry of this backslider starts all over again. Everything you can ever say to a backslider, he has already preached it to himself.
QuoteThe Silent Preacher
Within each and every backslider there lives a silent preacher. He doesn't have a pulpit, you never see him in a suit and tie. He never takes up an offering. But what he will do is in the wee hours of the morning when the world is asleep,he mounts his lonely place in your heart and begins to speak.There is no elegance to His words, no music to add suspense or even heighten His words.
All He has is an audience to which He much reach deep down into the areas where hurt and despair dwell. He must in a brief few moments between slumber and wakefulness move that piece of God that has been left from when this person walked with God. He must use Words like Love, and Hope.
He must walk into areas that have been closed off to all men, the area where hurt hangs its hat, and is foreman of this soul. Where despair and heart-ache laugh and have a good time as they slowly try to close all doors that were once opened to God. This silent preacher gets no recognition, no awards, no meals. He is never called upon to Preach a church service, or even to lead a testimony.
All His job consists of is to move the backslider to a place where God can once again deal with him. This Preacher though never preaching a Camp-meeting or even a fellowship meeting has preached more sermons in his time than all the other ministers put together, this silent preachers name you ask ........Your Conscience.
If every backslider were honest they would tell you the worst preacher they have to listen to is this still small voice in the wee hours of the morning, because you can't shut him out, turn him off or even drowned him out with noise.
Quote from: bsr on September 20, 2008, 03:53:28 PM
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 20, 2008, 03:40:25 PM
Quote from: bsr on September 20, 2008, 03:31:41 PM
Been in lots of services that I wanted to go pray but I was too terrified to step out.
What would you like to see done to fix this? How could the Church better serve those who have backslid?
As far as alter calls, a church should have a few seasoned saints that are willing to be the ice breakers by going to the alter so the person doesn't feel like they have to be up there alone as a spectacle in front of everyone. Also if you notice someone in the crowd that you know is struggling in their walk with God or has been out of the church for a while, just simply stepping over to them and asking "would you like to go pray" and being willing to go up with them is all the ice breaker some need.
Many Churches now are having everyone come to front and pray at the end of the service so people don't feel like everyone is watching them. By doing this we can begin to pray one for another and feel the burdens.
I must confess that the posting of BSR and changedbyGod have cause me to have a greater burden for the backslider and the hurting. I will pray and reach out to them like I never had. I do not wish to make them feel that I am judging them, but loving them. If we are to have revival then we must have restoration. We must reach the new converts but we must also reach our backsliders. Where would some of us be today if someone had not reached for us when we strayed.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 21, 2008, 03:23:01 AM
Many Churches now are having everyone come to front and pray at the end of the service so people don't feel like everyone is watching them. By doing this we can begin to pray one for another and feel the burdens.
I have seen churches do this and I'll agree it does help a lot both with breaking the ice and with being able to pray for one another. My current church doesn't always have alter calls.
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 20, 2008, 06:31:08 PM
I would have to say realizing the problem and where it lies is the first step but not the only step and BSR I am not just refering to you but I myself am in the process of trying to return too, I am realizing the second step is even harder.
Anymore I'm not sure the apostolic faith is really where I belong
Quote from: bsr on September 21, 2008, 04:08:53 AM
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 20, 2008, 06:31:08 PM
I would have to say realizing the problem and where it lies is the first step but not the only step and BSR I am not just refering to you but I myself am in the process of trying to return too, I am realizing the second step is even harder.
Anymore I'm not sure the apostolic faith is really where I belong
Well that is all there is. What you need to do is get in there and stand for what is right. And ask God to show you where you can be used to help others that are hurting. Anyone can run and hide, but it takes someone that really cares to stand up and make a difference.
just be careful, sometimes other routes may seem easier or even a better route but can leave us lacking in the end and cause more problems than what we thought we were walking away from
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 21, 2008, 04:29:25 AM
just be careful, sometimes other routes may seem easier or even a better route but can leave us lacking in the end and cause more problems than what we thought we were walking away from
So true.
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 21, 2008, 04:29:25 AM
just be careful, sometimes other routes may seem easier or even a better route but can leave us lacking in the end and cause more problems than what we thought we were walking away from
My main concern is I want to be part of something that is completley scriptural and I see things in the apostolic faith that don't line up with what I see in the scripture.
Quote from: bsr on September 21, 2008, 04:40:29 AM
My main concern is I want to be part of something that is completley scriptural and I see things in the apostolic faith that don't line up with what I see in the scripture.
Your desire to follow the Scriptures is laudable, but your desire to "be part of something that is completely scriptural" is not. Here's why:
1. I doubt you'll ever find anyone - not even one person, let alone a whole church - who agrees with you 100% when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.
2. Our fellowship within the family of God is not based on our agreement on interpreting the Scriptures; it's based on the fact that we're washed in Jesus' blood and filled with His Spirit, and He has made us part of His family.
Keep reaching for Truth; never stop. But don't let that quest cause division between you and your brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Quote from: titushome on September 21, 2008, 05:29:55 AM
Quote from: bsr on September 21, 2008, 04:40:29 AM
My main concern is I want to be part of something that is completley scriptural and I see things in the apostolic faith that don't line up with what I see in the scripture.
Your desire to follow the Scriptures is laudable, but your desire to "be part of something that is completely scriptural" is not. Here's why:
1. I doubt you'll ever find anyone - not even one person, let alone a whole church - who agrees with you 100% when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.
2. Our fellowship within the family of God is not based on our agreement on interpreting the Scriptures; it's based on the fact that we're washed in Jesus' blood and filled with His Spirit, and He has made us part of His family.
Keep reaching for Truth; never stop. But don't let that quest cause division between you and your brothers and sisters in the Lord.
I agree, anyone can twist the Scripture and make it sound right. But without being washed in the blood by baptism in His name and filled with His Spirit it will do you no good. We can not seek to please ourselves but God. Sometimes we blind ourselves to truth because we wish to. As long as we are looking at the grass on the other side we will never be happy with what we have.
Sometimes that may be true that we may blind ourselves to truth, but it usually happens when we think that we now have all the truth, and we are not willing to examine something by the bible. We have alot of traditions that scripture doesn't support, but maybe doesn't deny, and we begin to preach them as being the scripture, and it becomes that we are not willing to personally sit down and examine what it is that is being taught (regardless of the topic). We become unwilling for anything to be shown to us.
The changes that have happened to me over the last couple years theologically and in other areas, I have fought against screaming and sometimes within my own spirit, violently. It has become a progression to where I am and I know this journey for myself is not finished.
I know that I don't line up with much of Christiandom, but I also have learned that there are things that are salvational, and other things that are more cultural to be decided.
That which the bible doesn't spell it out, I have to look at church tradition, church history, and principles that are established for similar areas in the bible and then make my own decision logiclly after prayer, fasting and study. That is one reason I have ended up in the methodist church. The apostolic pentecostal doctrine i was taught is part of the foundation that I build upon, the rose colored glasses that I see everything through, but ultimately, I have to stand where I stand, and let things be as they must be.
If I can not be part of a group, I will seperate from them (or let them sperate from me depending on the case). If the path I follow doesn't seem to make sense or doesn't seem to follow what I think it progressively should follow, I will step back and take a long hard look at it. I do not step forward unless certain of my steps, but I know I must go where I must go, even if it doesn't always make sense.
This brings up another area that we've changed over the years... Not teaching according to the scripture. This can be done at least 3 different ways...
1) not rightly dividing the word
Theres plenty of things that are taught in churches today that were for the nation of Isreal but not for the gentile church. The early church had to deal with the Judiazers that taught gentile christians that they had to be circumcized and keep the law of Moses to be saved. Acts 15 and the book of Galatians deals with this matter extensively.
2) Adding to the scripture
Do we add requirements that the early church never bound on Christians? Christ talked about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. Have we added our traditions and lead people to believe that these traditions are scripture and binding for salvation?
3) Taking away from the scripture
This is another thing we tend to do usually ignoring something the scripture teaches and then arguing our way around why a passage can't mean what it clearly says.
Quote from: bsr on September 21, 2008, 05:25:14 PM
This brings up another area that we've changed over the years... Not teaching according to the scripture. This can be done at least 3 different ways...
1) not rightly dividing the word
Theres plenty of things that are taught in churches today that were for the nation of Isreal but not for the gentile church. The early church had to deal with the Judiazers that taught gentile christians that they had to be circumcized and keep the law of Moses to be saved. Acts 15 and the book of Galatians deals with this matter extensively.
I know there are some things that some people require that are not backed up by the New Testament. I of course could not get into these here for they would be me teaching standards which is not a good place to try and that.
2) Adding to the scripture
Do we add requirements that the early church never bound on Christians? Christ talked about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. Have we added our traditions and lead people to believe that these traditions are scripture and binding for salvation?
We should never lead people to believe anything we can not back up with Bible.
3) Taking away from the scripture
This is another thing we tend to do usually ignoring something the scripture teaches and then arguing our way around why a passage can't mean what it clearly says.
I am unsure about the Church you go to but I know the scripture means what it says. I have always made it a point in the Churches I preach to show in the Bible why I am preaching what I am preaching. I have taught for years to be ready to always give a Biblical answer for what we believe.
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
I recently address a link posted by a COC man name Mike Cornwell. He said he had been a Pentecostal for 42 years and preached for 18 years. I read his article "Why I Left The Pentecostal Church". After reading his article it was plain to see he left because he really didn't know what we really taught. I wrote a paper and sent a rebuttal to someone who sent me the link. I will address anything in a pm in to you as I would not want to get out of line on the thread.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 22, 2008, 02:09:44 AM
I am unsure about the Church you go to but I know the scripture means what it says. I have always made it a point in the Churches I preach to show in the Bible why I am preaching what I am preaching. I have taught for years to be ready to always give a Biblical answer for what we believe.
I'll agree the Bible very much means what it says. Sadly though I've seen things practiced and heard things preached even in apostolic churches that I couldn't find scripture to back. I've also asked preachers about things I didn't see in scripture and been blown off and not provided scripture to back what the minister taught, or what they did provide was an explanation to get around what the scripture said.
Quote from: bsr on September 22, 2008, 02:36:50 AM
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 22, 2008, 02:09:44 AM
I am unsure about the Church you go to but I know the scripture means what it says. I have always made it a point in the Churches I preach to show in the Bible why I am preaching what I am preaching. I have taught for years to be ready to always give a Biblical answer for what we believe.
I'll agree the Bible very much means what it says. Sadly though I've seen things practiced and heard things preached even in apostolic churches that I couldn't find scripture to back. I've also asked preachers about things I didn't see in scripture and been blown off and not provided scripture to back what the minister taught, or what they did provide was an explanation to get around what the scripture said.
I can not nor would I myself say anything against those you have talked to. All I can say i have always welcomed questions from people when they came to me in the right Spirit. I am certain there is enough in the Scriptures I sure don't need to add anything else. If I can bring myself in line to the Word of God I will do well.
Quote from: bsr on September 21, 2008, 05:25:14 PM
This brings up another area that we've changed over the years... Not teaching according to the scripture. This can be done at least 3 different ways...
1) not rightly dividing the word
Theres plenty of things that are taught in churches today that were for the nation of Isreal but not for the gentile church. The early church had to deal with the Judiazers that taught gentile christians that they had to be circumcized and keep the law of Moses to be saved. Acts 15 and the book of Galatians deals with this matter extensively.
2) Adding to the scripture
Do we add requirements that the early church never bound on Christians? Christ talked about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. Have we added our traditions and lead people to believe that these traditions are scripture and binding for salvation?
3) Taking away from the scripture
This is another thing we tend to do usually ignoring something the scripture teaches and then arguing our way around why a passage can't mean what it clearly says.
What I have noticed myself too is when you are talking to someone who doesnt understand things, it seems many times one of those is thrown up like you are just reading into the Bible things that are not there ir you are adding to things.
When I was in the hospital the other week, I was talking to a nurse and somehow water baptism got brought up. I started telling her some scriptures that stated you needed to be baptized and the first thing she said was I was adding to the scripture an then she threw up the scripture about rightly dividing the word.
Just came across to me she was using those 2 as arguments to dismiss somthing she did not understand
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 22, 2008, 12:13:24 PM
Quote from: bsr on September 21, 2008, 05:25:14 PM
This brings up another area that we've changed over the years... Not teaching according to the scripture. This can be done at least 3 different ways...
1) not rightly dividing the word
Theres plenty of things that are taught in churches today that were for the nation of Isreal but not for the gentile church. The early church had to deal with the Judiazers that taught gentile christians that they had to be circumcized and keep the law of Moses to be saved. Acts 15 and the book of Galatians deals with this matter extensively.
2) Adding to the scripture
Do we add requirements that the early church never bound on Christians? Christ talked about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. Have we added our traditions and lead people to believe that these traditions are scripture and binding for salvation?
3) Taking away from the scripture
This is another thing we tend to do usually ignoring something the scripture teaches and then arguing our way around why a passage can't mean what it clearly says.
What I have noticed myself too is when you are talking to someone who doesnt understand things, it seems many times one of those is thrown up like you are just reading into the Bible things that are not there ir you are adding to things.
When I was in the hospital the other week, I was talking to a nurse and somehow water baptism got brought up. I started telling her some scriptures that stated you needed to be baptized and the first thing she said was I was adding to the scripture an then she threw up the scripture about rightly dividing the word.
Just came across to me she was using those 2 as arguments to dismiss somthing she did not understand
So very true and no doubt you were giving her the very Scripture where she could have read it herself. It seems to alway be a good excuse to say you are adding to the Scripture when the truth is they don't want to know the truth. It would require something of them.
Maybe it's just me, but something about this post isn't sitting right.
Let me explain.
In an effort to talk about "church", we, in fact (whether we realize it or not) are talking about THE CHURCH, i.e. the Bride of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, trying to determine and enumerate all the "bad" ways that "church" has changed over the years and listing ad nauseum the many problems and flaws that local (Apostolic) congregations have seems to also finger point and criticize THE CHURCH, for whom Christ died.
I am wary in doing this. It's very easy to sniff out all the ugly spots in a church. If someone wants to find all the faults, they will have little difficulty in doing so. Especially as they focus on their own problems and hurts.
It's more difficult to allow the love of God to cover a multitude of sins and forgive the manifold weaknesses from which we all suffer, while seeing the goodness and even greatness that is the Body of Christ.
The humorous quip goes something like this:
Jesus had B+ blood type (i.e. Be Positive!)
Cynicism and pessimism about God's saints is a very dangerous position to take.
I mean, what are our expectations for God's Church? Do we expect more of our brothers and sisters than we expect of ourselves? Do we judge/condemn the New Jerusalem of God in ways that God NEVER does, simple because WE feel that a particular church is somehow lacking or subpar according to OUR standards?
You know, we can't really control the actions, words, or general behavior of others. We can, through the fruit of temperance, however, control our reaction. Remember this verse:
Great peace have they that love of the law of the LORD, nothing shall offend them.
The law is love: and love covers a multitude of sin, i.e. offences.
So again, maybe it's just me, but I advocate turning this post around and enumerating the successes, the positive impacts, and the manifold blessings and graces of the Body of our dear Savior. Let's talk about the good changes that God has affected and effected in His ekklesia, and not the bad that has (sometimes, but not always) occured.
The bottomline is this:
Carrying an unhealed wound for long and not allowing JESUS CHRIST (not His church, but Him) to heal it suggests something is wrong with the heart of the hurt person. As long as a person holds to their wound and brings it up and focuses on IT, instead of focusing on the fact that Jesus suffered worse hurt and offense than we ever will (at our own sinful hands, no less) and He still forgives and saves, and allowing that fact to HEAL us, we will always fault find and blame. As someone who (as with many of us) understands deep, ravaging wounds to the spirit, so, too, do I understand the virtuous power of Christ to heal every one of them when we forgive.
The emotional, spiritual torment of a wound is not the wound in and of itself. The torment is the unforgiveness one has at the person or groups that wounded them. See Matthew 18:32-35.
Let us forgive even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven us, and see the good in all of God's people, just like Jesus does.
Peace and God bless,
Aaron
In reality Raven180 is has a point. There is nothing wrong with the Church. God has never changed and so the Church can and will be same. Our goal must be what I can I do to make Church better. it is easy to stand and wait for someone else to move, but don't we be the first. If we are in the the Church and we feel it is not where it should be maybe we need a self examination. As I said earlier ask yourself these two questions.
1. What do I expect from the Church?
2. What am I willing to give to the Church to make it happen?
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 22, 2008, 07:16:25 PM
In reality Raven180 is has a point. There is nothing wrong with the Church. God has never changed and so the Church can and will be same. Our goal must be what I can I do to make Church better. it is easy to stand and wait for someone else to move, but don't we be the first. If we are in the the Church and we feel it is not where it should be maybe we need a self examination. As I said earlier ask yourself these two questions.
Since we are "members in particular", we must then individually examine ourselves to see what part we are playing. For example, do I fast and pray and intercede when I see a weakness or flaw in the ministry, or do I label and gossip, and justify my reasons for disrespecting the people God has called to be servants-leaders?
1. What do I expect from the Church?I fear that sometimes, it's easy for people to want the Church to be Jesus for them. The Word declares we are complete in HIM. It does not read that we are complete in HER, i.e. the Church.
Everyone, to one degree or another, in the church is a flawed mess of problems, earnestly seeking perfection and help from God to live righteously. There are no extra standards. We are all called to be saints, to live holy, to submit ourselves one to another, to love. To think that some in the church have an extra obligation to be more saintly, live more holy, submit more often, or love more than anyone or everyone else isn't consistent. My pastor is working out his own salvation with fear and trembling just as much as I am. So why should I expect more from him than I do of myself?
2. What am I willing to give to the Church to make it happen?Giving is the hardest part, but it is also the most Christlike. Christ gave His life for the Church. We should do no less.
"Take up your cross" means suffering: hurt, offense, betrayal, anguish, accusations, etc. The works. The cross is designed to
kill us. Only in the death of the cross is there any real liberty to live a resurrected life of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. One must ask theirself:
If you don't have righteousness, peace, or joy in the Holy Ghost, are you truly resurrected, i.e. have you truly been crucified with Christ and died His death?
If not, get the wood, the nails, and a hammer, find the place of the Skull and lose your life.
Quote from: ChangedByGod on September 22, 2008, 12:13:24 PM
What I have noticed myself too is when you are talking to someone who doesnt understand things, it seems many times one of those is thrown up like you are just reading into the Bible things that are not there ir you are adding to things.
When I was in the hospital the other week, I was talking to a nurse and somehow water baptism got brought up. I started telling her some scriptures that stated you needed to be baptized and the first thing she said was I was adding to the scripture an then she threw up the scripture about rightly dividing the word.
Just came across to me she was using those 2 as arguments to dismiss somthing she did not understand
This is where we have to be dilligent to study and find out how the early church divided the word of truth. We must teach what they taught. In the case of baptism you can show them through Paul's letters that Paul himself believed baptism is essential to salvation.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 22, 2008, 07:16:25 PM
1. What do I expect from the Church?
I expect that the church will strive to remain steadfast in the apostles doctrine
- teaching and practicing the things that were handed down to us through the ministry of the apostles
Quote from: bsr on September 26, 2008, 04:36:50 PM
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 22, 2008, 07:16:25 PM
1. What do I expect from the Church?
I expect that the church will strive to remain steadfast in the apostles doctrine
- teaching and practicing the things that were handed down to us through the ministry of the apostles
Not what we want to perceive as what was handed down. The Apostles taught nothing more and nothing less than Jesus had taught them. I feel that we need to expect a lot more out of the Church than just what it teaches, like what it practices. I hear some people says tongues aren't for everyone but then no one speaks in tongues in their church. Like when I was a teenager the church I grew up in stop teaching standards and just teach by example. After a while no one had standards anymore. When we stop teaching certain things we will cause a lot of people to be lost.
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 26, 2008, 06:30:28 PM
Not what we want to perceive as what was handed down. The Apostles taught nothing more and nothing less than Jesus had taught them.
Unfortunatley too many today don't teach what the apostles taught - especially when it concerns the basic salvation message.
Quote from: bsr on September 26, 2008, 08:04:39 PM
Quote from: Brother Dad on September 26, 2008, 06:30:28 PM
Not what we want to perceive as what was handed down. The Apostles taught nothing more and nothing less than Jesus had taught them.
Unfortunatley too many today don't teach what the apostles taught - especially when it concerns the basic salvation message.
It is also true that too many don't teach or won't receive because they have built walls to keep from it. God's plan never changes.
I have learned from first hand experience, its easy if you let it to let pain and past experiences build up walls and walls that are sometimes hard to tear down
Quote from: ChangedByGod on October 03, 2008, 02:10:11 PM
I have learned from first hand experience, its easy if you let it to let pain and past experiences build up walls and walls that are sometimes hard to tear down
very true
Quote from: iridiscente on September 03, 2008, 06:01:06 PM
Or just sick of people. Tired of interaction and putting forth more effort for a cause we don't really believe in. I don't have enough faith or will power or desire to even want to go to a church service that lasts all day and all night. I'm too selfish, I have too much to do, I'm sick of fighting with a screaming baby all service to the point that I'd rather not go most of the time. I know I'm wrong, but that doesn't change things.
I had this post come to mind lately. I have been trying to get more into studying my Bible more and into prayer asking God to help strenghten my beleifs to the point I am willing to do somthing about it. I can say yes this is what I beleive, but what am I doing about it. Has made me realize more I need to fight to get back right with God
The hardest battle we all fight is with our self.
I just discovered this thread and have only skimmed it, but as to the "what can we do about things" question, I have only one answer:
Take the "church" outside the walls!!
I agree with what several have said:
the CHURCH is not about a preacher and a building. It isn't about a song service, an altar call and a spaghetti dinner fund raiser.
The church is ME.
The church is YOU.
So what would Christ do if He were on the earth?
Love his enemies.
Fellowship with and love sinners.
Give when He had nothing.
Heal the sick.
Raise the dead.
Cast out devils.
So... ARE we in the "true" church? Or are we part of the church at all?
You may be a member of a local congregation, but if you're not doing what HE desires, then are you really a PART of the TRUE church?
Let me get personal so no one thinks this is an attack on them...
Am I sitting on the platform/singing/playing an instrument in a "church" that I don't even belong in? Am I part of the CHURCH? Or am I loyal to a meeting a few times a week? Am I part of the BODY, or am I just an accessory? It seems to me that the body of Christ doesn't need so many scarves and hats and neckties (figuratively speaking). The body needs more arms and legs and feet.
I was just reading I John 4 this morning. Talk about strong language!
Love.
He that loveth not knoweth not God, for God is LOVE.
If you can't love, then you're not of God.
None of this is said to encourage anyone to leave your local assembly. It is said to encourage us to provoke one another to good works. Are we encouraging one another to do good things?
This weekend, my Sunday school class (at this point it's just Cameron and I) will be making pumpkin rolls for our neighbors. I already had one amazing experience with giving this past weekend, where God gave me an opportunity to talk to someone about HIM because I obeyed and gave.
The most important part of our Christian walk is not the number of sermons we listen to, but how we put them into action.
It's not nearly as much about what we take in as what we give away.
I may be a bit off-topic, but it just seems that it's a matter of moving outside of our little circle of self and reaching out to others. It helps in many ways, not the least of which is just helping cure the selfishness that begins to draw us inward.
What has changed? Society at large is busier. We have tried to keep up with the pace, and in doing so have lost sight of SOULS. WHY do we do the things we do? For bigger numbers that come from other churches? To save people from "that preacher"? Or to save souls from hell?
:endrant:
Well said, RJ.
RJ I think the part about the Pumpkin rolls would go goo on the Humble Pie thread. So keep us updated.