A dichotomy is a division into two parts or concepts. These parts/concepts can be equal or unequal. They can be complimentary or contradictory. Essentially, what the parts/concepts are is less important than the fact of their division/separation.
Focus, obviously, is the intentional attention directed at a particular point or object.
Dichotomy of Focus, then, is having intentional attention directed at one of two separated parts or concepts, points or objects. It's not having one's focus divided or diverted; rather it's focusing solely in one direction as opposed to another.
A simple example will suffice. In a dish of ice cream, one may have vanilla ice cream topped by chocolate syrup. These two, separate--and in this case, complimentary--ingredients make up the dichotomy. As you eat, you may focus your attention through your taste buds on either the vanilla or the chocolate. You may even focus on the co-mingling of favors, as well. But if you are to taste the difference between the two ingredients, you must have a dichotomy of focus. If your taste buds are to determine which part is vanilla ice cream as opposed to which part is chocolate syrup, your brain must make a concentrated effort to focus solely on the taste of the vanilla and not on the chocolate.
In an example of a contradictory dichotomy, we can listen to a song that makes us feel happy or we can listen to a song that makes us feel sad. We then have a dichotomy of emotions: happiness and sadness. These are opposites, and so, contradictory. Depending on our mood, we may choose one song over another, and so focus our attention on one particular emotion. There may even be songs that are bittersweet, with a co-mingling of such emotions. But if we want pure happiness (or vice versa, i.e pure sadness) we must reject the bittersweet song and listen only to the song that makes us happy, and etc. This, again, is our dichotomy of focus.
In sum, complimentary dichotomies are usually joined by an "and". Contradictory dichotomies are usually joined by an "or".
Now let's get spiritual. There will come a time in your life, if you believe in God and follow the Lord Jesus Christ, that you will come to a dichotomy of focus. Let me explain. In the Bible, there are many dichotomies. Some are contradictory, and some are complimentary. An example of a contradictory dichotomy is "heaven or hell". An example of a complimentary dichotomy is "the blood of Jesus and the remission of sins". In both of these cases, the items in question are different, and thus divided into two concepts. But in the first example, "heaven or hell" are contradictory in that they do not share the same qualities, have a different purpose for their existence, and are two wildly different places to which one's eternal soul may go. The second, however, are complimentary because, though two different things, they inform and influence one another. Said another way, they go together. They are by no means a matching pair, but hand-in-glove, they are designed, one for another. "Heaven or hell" are not like this. One doesn't go to both after they die. They are mutually exclusive to each other.
So then, what is this dichotomy of focus to which we all must come? It comes down to this: what will our focus be? In any given, Biblical dichotomy, like heaven or hell, life or death, lost or saved (examples of contradictory dichotomies) or like the Father and Son, faith and works, commandments and obedience (examples of complimentary dichotomies), we will inevitably pay more attention to one than the other.
We can focus on heaven or hell. We can focus on life or death. We can focus on the lost or the saved. Eventually, no matter what we do, we end up paying more attention to one than the other. Even in complimentary dichotomies, we tend to focus more on one than the other. Some people focus more on the Father than the Son, some on faith more than works, and etc. It just naturally happens.
Of course, we must strive for balance and not over-emphasize one to the neglect of the other. But let's be honest. Who actually takes a balanced approach? Very few people do, in my experience. Take the Godhead debate. One can side so much with the trinitarian view that they end up in tri-theism. And one can dive so deeply into oneness they end up believing divine flesh. It is innately in us to go for the extremes, set up camp, and so, forever live there, in whatever side of the dichotomy we choose.
The question then is: What side or part of these various dichotomies will you choose to focus on? It is a supremely important question that must be asked. My answer, your answer, any given church's answer, will determine what we believe, preach, teach, and uphold as the standard for true orthodoxy and orthopraxy. If we allow ourselves an unbalanced approach (which is our natural tendency) we may end up over-emphasizing one aspect of the Bible to the exclusion of the other.
One may preach and teach the love of God so much that they, along with their listeners, come to forget about the wrath of God. Some may preach or teach so much against sin, that grace is never mentioned or is so infrequently mentioned, as to become meaningless with no real world application to those who constantly are warned about the consequences of sin.
Make sense?
(Continued in the next post...)
(Continued from above...)
Here are two Scriptural examples, both of which are found in Romans, to help explain what I mean.
Romans 4:25,
25. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
and
Romans 6:23,
23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
In both of these verses, dichotomies are presented (These happen to be examples of contradictory dichotomies, but it wouldn't matter which kind they are, since the main point is that they are dichotomies, not that they are equal or unequal, etc). So then, we have a choice. We can make our focus be on one or the other, but not both. We may switch our focus at times, but it's very difficult to balance such concepts together, i.e focus on both of them at the same time, especially at all times.
So what end's up happening? This: we either end up focusing on Jesus being delivered for our offenses and that the wages of sin is death or we end up focusing on His resurrection which causes justification and eternal life.
I submit that we need to try and not allow this to occur. Doing this divides the Gospel and thus, never allows for the other side of the story to be told. Focusing solely on the problem never allows a solution to be implemented. Conversely, attempting to solve everything without correctly analyzing and understanding the problem is a disaster waiting to happen.
Therefore, this tendency towards a dichotomy of focus is actually, Scripturally and Biblically speaking, not a good thing. When it comes to ice cream or music, it doesn't matter all that much and maybe not at all. But to do this to God's Word is eventually detrimental to our cause as Christians. An imbalanced approach, such as we so often take, leads us to having undernourished saints who can't get over the hump because they're lacking the other half of the equation in their life and walk with God. To me, this is all just another sign of our demonically controlled and influenced bi-polar world.
The truth is, Christ came for many reasons to this earth. One of them is so that we could be made complete, i.e. whole, in Him (Colossians 2:10). But right now, we are a divided Body, full of bi-polar type faith in God. We lack balance and the spiritual rest that comes with balance. Very few love God just to love God. Now, it's either out of fear and the feeling like we to have walk on egg shells around our Savior, or because we think God's just some sugar daddy who can't say no to our kind of Veruca Salt "affections".
We need a healing Church, both individually and locally, corporately and globally. This bi-polar approach is slowly strangling the life right out of our faith. I don't know about you, but I can feel the pain of the Lord through the Spirit for an ailing, spiritually-as-opposed to mentally-ill, dysfunctional Bride.
The bottomline is this: Faithful messengers must tell the WHOLE old, old story of the Savior who came down from glory, not just the parts most easily focused on and so, allow the Word to do It's chief work: which is restore lost souls into a right, saving, healing relationship with the God of the Word.
To conclude, I make no other demands than this: Please prayerfully seek God and ask Him:
- What, if anything, am I missing in my walk with Him?
and
- Do I have a bi-polar dichotomy of focus that leads me to trump only one side of the Word to the harmful neglect of the other?
If God shows you that you are missing something and then also answers yes to question #2, then ask Him:
- To please send restorative, spiritual healing and so, make you whole
and
- To heal others who have so divided His Word that they can't faithfully embrace all of it or at all without constantly drawing lines in the sand and/or compartmentalizing It to pieces to find the parts they like.
After that, simply wait and trust that He will answer.
God bless you all and I hope this helps. Peace.
Good thought, well expressed.
I'm surprised you didn't use "...they that worship him must worship him in spirit AND in truth." :cool:
Most of the churches I know either bias toward faith or works.
Yes, a very good thought. Excellent in fact.
I think the biggest problem that leads to the situation described is: the Body overall practices the deeds of the Nicolatians, wherein the pulpit rules the pew. Conversely, the pew serves the pulpit above & beyond the Word & Holy Spirit, deceiving itself as being "righteous & holy".
The Body needs to obey Jesus and come out of that bondage; study individually to show themselves approved; and be taught/led by the Holy Spirit. This would allow true maturity & growth that increases knowledge/understanding to the nth degree. A proper Berean philosophy would "fix" so much in a saint's life, as well as strengthen involvement with the whole Body. Add to that a repentance from the pulpit and destruction of the "elite ministry" in order to share knowledge/experience with every member of the Body, and we go a long way toward healing the Church.
One thing for certain: Jesus will heal as much of His Church as He can. But He's going to do it with fire. Everything that is not gold, silver, precious stones will be consumed and blown away as chaff. Then we all will definitely focus on the true Word and not any errors or additions we tend to make.
Very good article. So much to ponder.
Thanks, guys.
To Psalm_97:
That is a great dichotomy, one that many don't know how to properly balance. I suppose the reason I didn't refer to John 4:24 has to do with the inspiration of the content. The issue I was facing had to do with how much sin, death, wrath, and hellfire get preached, and how little righteousness, life, grace, and heaven get preached. Sometimes it seems people forget Jesus didn't stay in the tomb.
Regarding your faith and works comment, do you care to elaborate? I'd like to read your experiences.
To OOJ:
I know such sentiments are not always popular, but I find they tend to ring true. I guess we have Iraeneus to blame for that. Rome still rules in a lot of hearts. So does organizing a church according to secular models with traditional business world hierarchies. Such a division in the church--clergy and laity--is in itself its own dichotomy, one that lends itself toward the very bi-polarism I described. I'm not against elders. I very much acknowledge that local churches have pillars that are there to support and help the church at large. But I agree that the current model is out of balance and doesn't reflect the intention of the Lord for His people. Nor is it End Time sustainable.
Right now, the model is (and has been for a long time) that 20% of the people do 80% of the work. That 20% is the local clergy (licensed or not). Occasionally, they get help but otherwise, it has become the norm that the spiritual needs of an entire church are supposed to be (only?) met by a select qualified few. To me, this creates laziness on the part of the Body, because hey, life is easier when someone else does all the heavy lifting. But it also creates what you said: Nicolaitianism, where some have dominion over others, and the Lord is an afterthought. We tend to still treat other humans as the Mediator, when only Jesus can fit the position. The church in Corinth seemed to suffer this problem.
So, tell me, what do you think a practical solution is? You've hinted at it already, but do you care to go into greater depth? Do you know of any examples where change is occuring and can you share what benefits are being enjoyed because of such a change?
Hope to hear back soon.
Peace
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on October 08, 2012, 01:57:07 PM
I think the biggest problem that leads to the situation described is: the Body overall practices the deeds of the Nicolatians, wherein the pulpit rules the pew. Conversely, the pew serves the pulpit above & beyond the Word & Holy Spirit, deceiving itself as being "righteous & holy".
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with that one. First, define "Body." In my church certainly this is not the case. I have seen some churches that do this, but (given the churches I have personally been to) I would not consider it a widespread problem. Are you speaking of the majority of the churches you have visited? And what is your general geographic area? Perhaps this problem exists in your area but not is not widespread in mine.
Whenever you say the Church in general does something, that's very hard to back up. Each church is different.
I have to agree with Psalm. And I appreciate the wording of OOJ's post in that it provided solutions rather than criticism. I think the very title of this thread is applicable to the issue brought up.
While the letters to the Church held and hold an element of truth and application across the board, they were addressed to specific churches with specific issues first.
We should learn from this. It can be edifying to analyze where the church needs improvement, but we should be careful to make blanket statements.
My church is one of many that does not have preacher worship. I know many do, but not all. It is not a problem everywhere. My church has the primary emphasis on discipleship, which is ever growing. My pastor also is a leader that trains leaders, not just in governmental offices per say but in general to win a lost world. Our goal this year is to be teaching 300 Bible studies. That requires far more than 20% to be involved. And we are doing well, I believe!
Also, we are not going to get away from the basic 20/80 no matter how much people study for themselves, it would however increase the Church as a whole. The more people grow, the more people will be won, forever keeping the scale similiarly. Because once a person is called out to start a work from the ground up, they begin discipling maybe one or a few. Those then will ideally win and disciple more causing the leaders to be outnumbered by new converts. As the first batch of leaders grows and the leader of that work imparts their vision, there is a strong family being built, moving in unity. New converts, and many young Christians can only do so much. Personality, maturity, abilities have to be accounted for, regardless of how much they apply themselves unto Godly things. There will never be a point in which everyone is on the same level and until Jesus comes, there will always be humanity/carnality throughout, magnified by position.
Yes, the church needs to shore up this subject, some churches more than others. However, there are healthy churches, discipling people into leaders. We know that not all Israel is Israel. So then it will be that tares will grow right up next to the wheat until the rapture. This is in part what purifies us! We have equal opportunity to follow after the power hungry legalistics or the anointed walking in humility and authority. It is not going to become clearer as a whole, if anything it will become crazier to where we individually must know God for ourselves. We see it becoming crazier daily. I don't think it is the Church getting crazier though, I see Christians buckling down like never before and being more passionate and honest! I know in my church particularly God is educating us in financial stewardship for work of God, and it's not coming from the pulpit, it's coming from personal relationships with Christ, unbenounced to others, yet at the same time! THAT IS GOD. When the bridegroom called the 10 virgins, the first scene is chaotic, with half prepared and ready to go and the other half scrambling to get it together, until they parted ways, they were all mixed in together.
Jesus had 3 disciples he held the closest out of the 12 which were the closest out of many that followed Christ. I find it interesting that Jesus 25% of the named disciples in a higher plane of revelation. Matt 17. I find it interesting that we have 11 apostles when right away there were 70 that Jesus sent out to do work in His name. Luke 10. Why not 70 Apostles? Why does the family unit begin with 2 parents and many children? Why do companies of any sort not be solely share holder ran equally across the board? Why aren't armies more effective with everyone being a private going to do battle with the same equipment? I believe that is the only way we'll be able to participate in the endtime, let alone sustain it. Churches are being won by the congregation you guys. That cannot be done with a socialistic mentality toward the church.
If we indeed follow Christ's example of leadership, there will always be less leaders and more followers that are following how to be what the leaders are who are following what Christ is. 1 Cor. 11.
I really enjoyed the first two posts of this thread but feel the ball was dropped in demonstrating how it's done right, specifically with the issue brought up.
Hi, Mel
Thanks for the input. I agree with you and Psalm that blanket statements are not advisable, since we all have very limited experience with the universal Body as it operates in the world. For my part, I wasn't trying to generalize that badly. There are definitely local assemblies (like your own) where such things are not an issue.
The question, I think, comes down to: To what end does the ministry exist?
Interestingly, the answer appears to come down to a comma.
QuoteEphesians 4:11-16,
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
If you notice the embolded commas in verse 12, those two little marks change everything. They have been supplied by the translators (since Koine Greek doesn't have such grammatical marks) as an attempt to clarify the passage. But what if they don't belong? It not, then suddenly the whole verse reads differently. Check it out:
Quote12. For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ...
Now, the five-fold ministry is not designed to do all the work of the ministry to edify the Body. Rather, now, the five-fold ministry is merely required to perfect the Body so the Body can minister to Itself and receive edification from It's own efforts. Such a paradigm is self-sustaining and helps to, if not completely eliminate the 20/80, at least helps it level out so that entire local assemblies aren't completely dependent upon one or two people to do everything.
I'll give you a case in point. This past week, we had a foreign missionary from Cyprus come to our church. He told us that he and his wife are the only Apostolic ministers in the entire nation and that he feels the burden to reach 1M+ people (which is the total population of the entire island).
I ask you, is this effective? Such percentages cannot get the job done. Now, I realize the man is called and has the right mind and burden for the work. But if no one else steps up to help, how successful will his mission really be?
I leave you with this idea (taken from Unseen Hands by Nona Freeman). She wrote that the members of the Apostolic church in Ethiopia came to the point that every single one of them was capable of winning one soul a week. Even the newest of the new converts came to believe this about themselves. And so they did. And in approximately 10 years, over 1,500,000 people were saved. Yes, it was God's sovereign plan in action, but it was also God's holy Bride doing the unthinkable: actually being the Body!
I think that's the proper view all saints need to take. The Gospel doesn't preach itself, and if there's only so many people in ministry doing the preaching (as opposed to the whole Body preaching, teaching and working together to save the lost) then we can only get what gets put into it. So, for me, it's not about an overly controlling, elistist ministry. It's just about, as you seemed to indicate, building a bigger base. I know it takes time and all need a chance to mature and grow, but some simply will not grow if they just sit and absorb someone else's labor in the Gospel. Their hands have to get on that plow, too.
Now, I don't know if that's where OOJ was coming from for his comments, but those are my sentiments. So I hope I've clarified.
(BTW, the post doesn't have to be about this. It's just where it ended up heading. This subject can easily be dropped, no hard feelings. :) )
Both the last two posts are good.
I would only add that they had the problem in the first church in Acts. It ain't nothing new.
6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Well, I've had schedule change which has thrown me off, a text-eating computer which has almost gotten my goat, and I've started over 3 times so far.
Sorry for the delay!
I think a practical solution is for each individual saint to conciously & purposely quit going to "church" for at least a month. Don't listen to any TV, radio, internet, or taped sermons at all. Take that time to studiously read the Word w/o any pre-conceived conclusions whatsoever. Allow the Holy Ghost to restructure, re-examine, and remove as much as possible what is not gold, silver, or precious stone. Allow the wood, hay, and stubble of our erroneous understandings to burn off. This will begin a teachable mind/spirit capable of better discernment regarding "Thus saith the Lord."
Jesus changes things in the Wilderness. It is there that He teaches us to solely depend upon Him for everything. It is there that we begin to understand and walk in "thy will be done". It is there that the our minds are transformed by the renewing of the Word. Thus, when we walk among the saved and the lost, we are confident in not being so easily deceived. We learn the Great Shepherd's voice and can therefore be more likely to discern an imposter.
Please, do not misunderstand what I'm saying. I am not predicating the abolishment of churches. (Although what we currently have isn't working very well. There is a reason Jesus questions whether He will find faith when He returns. The great falling away or apostasy is our overall re-interpretation of the Word of God, and adding to/perverting its principles.) What I am predicating is the abolishment of absolute pastoral authority. The Bible says that Jesus is the head of His Body. Period. That means He alone is to be obeyed. He alone is to guide and teach us. He alone is the "ruling class" and not the current pastoral/ministerial system of the Nicolations. When a saint finally accepts that all members of the Body are equal; all members of the Body have a gift; all members of the Body are to exhort and encourage one another; then the bondage of religion is truly broken.
Scripturally, meetings are supervised by the elders. The younger are taught by the older, wiser saints. Take this forum for example: we gather together and share what the LORD has been speaking to us as individuals. We choose whether or not to accept or reject any advice given. Moderators oversee w/o attempting control. Each is free to speak their minds within the bounds of the guidelines. Likewise the Body of Christ. The Word is our guideline and the Holy Spirit the moderator. We are to use the Spirit to moderate everything that comes from both the pulpit and the saints. If it doesn't line up - you ignore it. Most irregularities are simply error through lack of understanding anyway. The wolves are there too, but a lot easier to spot.
Change is occuring all over the Body. Not so much in a large congregational or denominational capacity, but among the saints themselves. It happens here and there. It's that saint who always seemed so strong in the doctrine who suddenly questions everything and dares compare it to the Bible. It's the sister who insists her children feed widows, orphans, and the poor before helping to pay for Youthnight at Six Flags. It's the brother who thinks introducing someone to Jesus is more important than introducing them to our church. I could go on. But you can see it in every denomination. There are some who fearfully but trustingly, left the Camp to go into the Wildernss with Jesus.
What are the benefits? Freedom. Freedom to give to whomever the Spirit wills. Freedom to go where the Spirit leads. Freedom to camp when the Spirit says camp. Freedom to see Christ in all the denominations and not just mine. Freedom to work out my own salvation. Freedom to stop comparing myself with anyone else. Freedom from the guilt of "not measuring up". Freedom to know the "pastor" is not automatically right and I'm wrong. But mostly - freedom to know Jesus in a deeper, more intimate vein.
There are some organic churches who are practicing eldership. Lots of smaller Spirit-filled ones too. They are scattered all over the country, so you just have to look for one near you. We do much of our "assembling" outside the traditional course. Much contact online and in more relaxed venues. When we do go to church, it is usually enjoyable. The group praise and friendships are great. You just have to discern the preaching though. Jesus pounded that in very well. lol!
I personally do not think that we will see Biblical church until a big enough catastrophe occurs to rip us out of our current system. We're so used to meeting in a big sanctuary that has lots of musical instruments and a crowd to praise. The concept of meeting on the internet, or over coffee, or breakroom at work, or even in a parking lot is strange to us. To think "I" may have something important to say w/o a preacher's approval is really way out there. But that's our conditioning. In the meantime, we continue to be led of the Spirit as we take full advantage of those times He allows fellow believers to cross our path.
I hope all this at least gives something to ponder. We'll all be perfect when Jesus comes. Until then, we just have to dig deeper in the Word and obey His Spirit.
Raven, I wish I had your command of words. Maybe you can clear it up for me. :)
Quote from: Raven180 on October 12, 2012, 07:18:32 AM
Hi, Mel
Thanks for the input. I agree with you and Psalm that blanket statements are not advisable, since we all have very limited experience with the universal Body as it operates in the world. For my part, I wasn't trying to generalize that badly. There are definitely local assemblies (like your own) where such things are not an issue.
The question, I think, comes down to: To what end does the ministry exist?
Interestingly, the answer appears to come down to a comma.
QuoteEphesians 4:11-16,
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
If you notice the embolded commas in verse 12, those two little marks change everything. They have been supplied by the translators (since Koine Greek doesn't have such grammatical marks) as an attempt to clarify the passage. But what if they don't belong? It not, then suddenly the whole verse reads differently. Check it out:
Quote12. For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ...
Now, the five-fold ministry is not designed to do all the work of the ministry to edify the Body. Rather, now, the five-fold ministry is merely required to perfect the Body so the Body can minister to Itself and receive edification from It's own efforts. Such a paradigm is self-sustaining and helps to, if not completely eliminate the 20/80, at least helps it level out so that entire local assemblies aren't completely dependent upon one or two people to do everything.
I'll give you a case in point. This past week, we had a foreign missionary from Cyprus come to our church. He told us that he and his wife are the only Apostolic ministers in the entire nation and that he feels the burden to reach 1M+ people (which is the total population of the entire island).
I ask you, is this effective? Such percentages cannot get the job done. Now, I realize the man is called and has the right mind and burden for the work. But if no one else steps up to help, how successful will his mission really be?
I leave you with this idea (taken from Unseen Hands by Nona Freeman). She wrote that the members of the Apostolic church in Ethiopia came to the point that every single one of them was capable of winning one soul a week. Even the newest of the new converts came to believe this about themselves. And so they did. And in approximately 10 years, over 1,500,000 people were saved. Yes, it was God's sovereign plan in action, but it was also God's holy Bride doing the unthinkable: actually being the Body!
I think that's the proper view all saints need to take. The Gospel doesn't preach itself, and if there's only so many people in ministry doing the preaching (as opposed to the whole Body preaching, teaching and working together to save the lost) then we can only get what gets put into it. So, for me, it's not about an overly controlling, elistist ministry. It's just about, as you seemed to indicate, building a bigger base. I know it takes time and all need a chance to mature and grow, but some simply will not grow if they just sit and absorb someone else's labor in the Gospel. Their hands have to get on that plow, too.
Now, I don't know if that's where OOJ was coming from for his comments, but those are my sentiments. So I hope I've clarified.
(BTW, the post doesn't have to be about this. It's just where it ended up heading. This subject can easily be dropped, no hard feelings. :) )
Like I said.... you have a better way with words than I. You hit the nail on the head.
onli-one-jehovi I still must disagree with you. I do not claim the problems you cite are nonexistent (I don't go to your church, so I can't say whether they are or not) but I do not see the specified problems in my church or in most of the churches around here. When you mention the problem being a part of the whole church system you completely threw me - what system? UPCI? PAW? ALJC? The Roman Catholic Church?
By the same token, while studying the Bible is essential for any christian, I do not think cutting oneself off from the church to devote yourself to study is advisable. If in your church the pastor has made his church a dictatorship it is regrettable, and taking a break from church to refocus your priorities, perceptions and beliefs might be a good thing, even essential. But as I said before, most churches I have attended do not have this problem. And if one deliberately cuts oneself off from his church body for a time, he leaves himself open to all manner of spiritual attacks that would have no chance if he had remained in the church body.
A lone animal is far easier to take down than a herd. Unless you are certain the herd is running off a cliff, you should stay with it. And if your church is indeed running off a cliff, by all means cut out. But I repeat, most churches I have been in do not have the problem against which you are taking a stand.
Quote from: Psalm_97 on October 12, 2012, 11:06:11 PM
onli-one-jehovi I still must disagree with you. I do not claim the problems you cite are nonexistent (I don't go to your church, so I can't say whether they are or not) but I do not see the specified problems in my church or in most of the churches around here. When you mention the problem being a part of the whole church system you completely threw me - what system? UPCI? PAW? ALJC? The Roman Catholic Church?
By the same token, while studying the Bible is essential for any christian, I do not think cutting oneself off from the church to devote yourself to study is advisable. If in your church the pastor has made his church a dictatorship it is regrettable, and taking a break from church to refocus your priorities, perceptions and beliefs might be a good thing, even essential. But as I said before, most churches I have attended do not have this problem. And if one deliberately cuts oneself off from his church body for a time, he leaves himself open to all manner of spiritual attacks that would have no chance if he had remained in the church body.
A lone animal is far easier to take down than a herd. Unless you are certain the herd is running off a cliff, you should stay with it. And if your church is indeed running off a cliff, by all means cut out. But I repeat, most churches I have been in do not have the problem against which you are taking a stand.
I agree completely, Isaac. Was thinking exactly what you've put, just didn't know quite how to put it without coming off as abrasive and offensive.
And I also feel that Hebrews 10:24 and 25 have something to say about cutting yourself off from the body.
24 "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
In my way of seeing it- my opinion only, no intention of contesting anyone- it would be somewhat akin to becoming ones own priest to pull away from your church and Man of God. Seems to me that if your church is going haywire in the manner these last posts have addressed, a person would be well advised to seek out a solid church body and attend there.
After all, it is plain throughout the Bible what fate befalls those that become their own priest- Saul for example. If God says plainly that He will lead us in paths of righteousness, He will do so- but I don't feel He will go around the ministry, who He has ordained and established.
Now, I think a person should study, and seek the face of God, but the body of Christ in the church and the being with likeminded believers is invaluable. Personally there is not a time in my life that I would want to be seperated from my family in God, because they are there to uplift and strengthen me- and I them.
I may have taken us off on a tangent, and completely misunderstood the way the post was flowing- if so, I am sorry. It is just that I have lost friends who studied and cut themselves off. Now, they are backslidden and don't even pretend to know God.
:lurk:
I want to reply so badly but am in the processs of moving so I just my phone @the moment.
Ooj, I feel you have a wounded view & as much as I'd love to try & convince you that the Church is doing better than ever, it is something you may just have to experience for yourself. We have a few who come to cell groups but haven't come to service yet, &some that began that way.
We all need a pastor. I think there is an element of submission with grace towards a leader's humanity that we desperately need to learn.
QuoteI think the very title of this thread is applicable to the issue brought up.
It is certainly listing that way, isn't it?
We have, in this very post, a dichotomy of how a church should operate. Advocates from both camps are speaking. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
QuoteRaven, I wish I had your command of words. Maybe you can clear it up for me.
I read and received your comments clearly. I think you articulated your position very well. Your post is quite lucid.
Thank you, though. :)
QuoteI think a practical solution is for each individual saint to conciously & purposely quit going to "church" for at least a month. Don't listen to any TV, radio, internet, or taped sermons at all. Take that time to studiously read the Word w/o any pre-conceived conclusions whatsoever. Allow the Holy Ghost to restructure, re-examine, and remove as much as possible what is not gold, silver, or precious stone. Allow the wood, hay, and stubble of our erroneous understandings to burn off. This will begin a teachable mind/spirit capable of better discernment regarding "Thus saith the Lord."
Three questions, OOJ.
1.) Have you personally done this?
2.) Should a new convert (as an individual saint) partake in such an action?
3.) What, if any, negative or harmful results might come about if say, the average saint does what you suggest here? Basically, can this solution backfire (even if in only unintended or unforeseen ways)?
Good morning everyone! I'm here and reading your responses. Just want you to know I will answer as quickly as I can, but I'm slow and have to think about what/how to say things. No need to just rattle something off. :)
Let me state again that I am not a novice Disciple. I'm 54 years old and have followed Jesus for 48 years. Received the Holy Ghost & baptized in Jesus' name for 37 years. If you believe nothing else, believe and consider that I just might know whereof I speak.
When I use the term "church", I am speaking about the entire Body of Christ made up of all denominations or lack thereof. Believers are not confined to the Apostolics. The Body is a whole lot bigger than that. So, to even begin to comprehend what I'm talking about requires chucking that belief point. It's a stumbling block that blinds one to the larger issues. If someone can't fathom anyone else in "their" club, then how will they see the truth about the entire system? No, you have to be willing to step out of the camp for the journey into the wilderness.
I use the term "wilderness" because it demonstrates so accurately what Christ does. Repeatedly He left the city/town/village and went out into the desert wilderness. He taught in the wilderness area. Scripture examples show GOD leads His people out of bondage into the wilderness. Think the Exodus. Look again at Revelation where safety lies in the wilderness. Think about Jesus being led immediately into the wilderness after baptism. Wasn't any priest there with Him. Wasn't any friends there with Him. Just He and GOD - alone - for 40 days. {Btw - that's longer than the 30 days I suggested.}
But look at the difference in Him when the Holy Spirit led Him back out!
That's an inkling of what I'm trying to convey.
If we want to understand what is truth and what is lies, then we have to take the red pill, Neo. Doing so will take things you thought were gold, silver, and precious stone standing firm upon solid rock; and reveal them to be wood, hay, and stubble propped up on sinking sand. Going into the wilderness with Jesus will change you forever, but it will become for the better.
Please, don't anyone blindly accept or reject. Take it to the LORD in prayer and search the scriptures. Not superficially, but intently to see if this is so.
Ooj I think you would absolutely LOVE Galen Thompson's writings on this subject.
QuoteWhen I use the term "church", I am speaking about the entire Body of Christ made up of all denominations or lack thereof. Believers are not confined to the Apostolics. The Body is a whole lot bigger than that. So, to even begin to comprehend what I'm talking about requires chucking that belief point. It's a stumbling block that blinds one to the larger issues. If someone can't fathom anyone else in "their" club, then how will they see the truth about the entire system? No, you have to be willing to step out of the camp for the journey into the wilderness.
This is really going to be the crux of it all. Some can and will do what you are asking; other can't or won't (or both).
In my experience, however, I've had true wilderness experiences with the Lord, where it was just me and Him, without having to leave behind my church, my fellowship, etc. I've found the wilderness to be a deeply personal, intensely private spiritual experience not contingent upon my surroundings or even the people in my life.
I had a full two years (at least) the first go around, and then again over a year the next go round where God took me into the wilderness. At the end of the first time, God gave me a vision of myself all alone standing in a hole. I asked Him, "God, where have I been these last two years"? He said "Digging ditches". And so I was, for in the vision, I was standing in a massive ditch I myself had dug out. God then told me to end with a fast (which I did) after which, God built in my mind/spirit a hedge, founded in the ditch I had built. This hedge finished God's healing process in my mind from before I was born again. Spiritual attacks from the enemy of which I used to have no defense suddenly couldn't get to me. I was protected. This was my first wilderness experience.
My second, one that I am still currently in, has had to do with my health. Long story short, God told me in prayer "To the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak" From that, I knew God was going to allow me a time of personal weakness for the express purpose of being changed, so I could continue to become all things to all men that I may by all means win some.
Two weeks later I had a massive asthma attack that eventually cost me my job. From that point forward, I've had so many varied health concerns and issues (including all sorts of tests and treatments, including a surgery from which I am still not recovered and the possibility of needing a much more severe surgery that I am putting off) and when I pray, or have elders anoint me in the name of the Lord, the answer is always the same: God re-energizes my mind and attitude toward suffering, but does not heal my body. And I'm okay. I have changed and grown much. I have, as you say, re-evaluated many things, including my own mortality, and have come to different views and conclusions that I would have never come to without the experience.
But through it all, I've never had to leave behind or walk away from anything but my self. We will, of course, see where things take me and my family, and sometimes it's a challenge to stay reconciled when there are fundamental disagreements, but God has not yet instructed me to do anything else but be a servant, wash the saints feet, and love.
Ok...here we go.
Mellow: Wounded? Probably no more or less than any other saint who walks this narrow path. Life is full of woundings. They come from all quarters. No, I'm not angry and lashing out at the church or anyone associated. On the contrary, I love His people. All of them. Pulpit and pew alike. It simply breaks my heart to see so many precious saints deceived by the doctrine of Nicolations. A doctrine I must stress - Jesus hates!
Q: Has anyone here ever really researched this doctrine to find out exactly why Jesus hates it so? I hazard to say such an endeavor will be a real eye-opener, and hopefully, a game-changer.
Respectfully, no I do not need a pastor. At least not in the sense the current system implies. None of us require an ongoing, fabricated "pastoral covering" to maintain biblical relationship with Christ Jesus. What is needed is access to mature elders with whom advice and wisdom can be gleaned. Doesn't have to be a preacher at all. It might surprise folks to know I glean from some saints who post on this forum. How? By being respective of their experiencial input and submissive to their place within the Body. What the LORD reveals to the pew is just as - if not more - important as what He reveals to the pulpit. Remember, in the Body, Jesus is the head. Besides, He already did the priest covering thing back in the OT. Calvary changed all that. Now we're married.
Scripture says marriage is a type of Christ and the Church. Family life is the embodiment of our interactions. Does one brother have authority over another brother's wife? Does she look to another for protection and provision? Of course not. No husband in his right mind would stand for such a thing. Neither does Jesus.
Rest assured I do appreciate the spirit of your concerns.
Forgive me, but I can't find the poster who mentioned backslidden. I will just answer blanketly.
Thank you for your concern. That's not the first time fearful implications have come my way. I assure you, I am not backslidden. Nor have I abandoned the LORD. Matter of fact, I'm closer to Him than ever before. No problem at all with the gifts of pastor, prophet, apostle, teacher, & evangelist. These were given to the Body for all our benefit. Raven covered that earlier. I am simply challenging the biblical validity of the current church system overrun with the hated Nicolation Doctrine.
Oh, the mention by someone about being culled from the herd? Perhaps the herd is not actually ranging free under the watchful eye of the Shepherd. Perhaps it is actually penned in the massive corrals of the slaughter house and doesn't know it. Perhaps the "culled" ones are truly free. Perhaps.
I have a rhetorical question to ask:
Are you a disciple/servant of Jesus the Christ?
Or
Are you a disciple/servant of your church?
No, they are not the same.
Raven: Have you done this?
Yes I have. Many times over the last seventeen years. Up until then, I spent most of my life pretty much immersed in church. Every time the doors opened, every project, every prayer meeting, every revival, every area possible found me in the thick of it. Then the LORD gave me a great job with what I thought was a single flaw - shift work. Sometimes I could attend and participate, but most times not. I came to the conclusion real quick that it was my personal responsibility to maintain a relationship with GOD. Thus I began to read the Bible for myself w/o the influence of others conclusions. Don't misunderstand - I'd always been a reader and student. But it was mainly along the lines of cementing interpretations that came from and was approved by my church. It's amazing what the Bible really says when you read it.
For me it was not a quick process. I stubbornly clung to my beliefs even as the Holy Ghost gently shred them to pieces. It took years for the shackles and strongholds I'd established to be brought down. Oh so slowly - a chink at a time - Jesus set to work. Hasn't been easy. Hasn't been pretty. But it has been worth it. And He is still at it.
Suffice to say, the more the Holy Spirit reveals; the harder it is to embrace the error I see. It's so widespread throughout the Body. Naturally within varying degrees, but there all the same. So I limit involvement, choosing instead alternate avenues of fellowship and instruction until the LORD sees fit to lead to the next assignment.
Btw: there has been no falling out with our congregation. The purpose for which we came has ended. It is in the interim that we wait, regardless of the time involved.
Scenario: If a catastrophe occurred in which church-as-we-know-it was impossible to engage in for an unknown amount of Time; could you survive and thrive alone with Jesus?
Scenario: If suddenly bed/house ridden and attending church-as-we-know-it was impossible to engage in for an unknown amount of Time; could you survive/thrive alone with Jesus?
If the answer is anything other than the likes of: Yes.. I don't know but I'd try my best.., then there's a problem.
Raven: Should a new convert partake?
Let's look at a scriptural example: the Ethiopean Eunuch.
Philip is led by the Holy Spirit to a man pondering the meaning of scripture. Philip explains that passage is about the Messiah who was recently crucified in Jerusalem. He shares the gospel and give him a choice to obey. They come upon water and the man is baptized. Phillip immediately disappeared, leaving the eunuch with nothing but a Bible and an understanding of Jesus. As far as we know, he returned to Ethiopia and lived for GOD w/o the "covering" of a church or pastor.
We are commanded to make disciples, not bring them to church. New converts come to Jesus by the testimony of someone within the Body, or by direct revelation via the Holy Ghost. If it's you, then the Holy Ghost should have already placed upon your heart a desire to pray for and oversee their infant beginnings with Christ. Like a big brother or sister, we watch over those younger until they come to a maturity in Christ. {Eph 4:13} Perhaps it includes mega involvment with a congregation, or perhaps not. What we do is encourage them to read and obey the Word, pray and communicate with the LORD Jesus, and allow the Holy Spirit to lead and teach them. The LORD will show them what to do and where to go. I think we've both been around long enough to realize a lot of saints were doing fine until they joined a church and got religious.
Remember the scripture about the birds lodging in the tree grown by the mustard seed? And the one with the birds eating the seed before it takes root?
The birds represent the demons and their demonic doctrines within the church. The birds lodge there and have easy access to the seed of the Word. Also, as they are comfortable in their abode, they influence what is acceptable to them. That's what births the obvious and hidden perversions of scripture meaning.
So to answer your question: Pray and leave it up to the Holy Ghost to lead you both.
Raven: Any harmful/negative effects? Can it backfire?
Oh yeah, just like things do in the currrent system. We're dealing with people maturing in Christ and learning to be led by His Spirit. I would say harmful can occur as a refusal to the Holy Spirit. Saints can be as tyrannical as any preacher. It can be so easy to succomb to the deception of self-rule. That's when you see meglomanical incidents manifest and the creation of "another Jesus". We've all seen some people whom you just can't teach period. Such who receive not a love for the Truth {Word}, GOD allows them to believe a lie and be damned. I guess that is also an example of backfire.
Other harmful effects could easily lean toward the stony, thorny, barely-rooted ground parable. One could wind up shying away too much from contact with others in the Body and cause unnecessary struggles in the flesh. But these things happen regulary within the Body.
Negative effects more accurately fulfill Jesus' warning that a disciple's foes will be those of their own household. Conditioned assumptions are: backslid, rebellious, demon possessed, deceived, never saved, nut, crackpot, etc. The Bible if full of people called the same things. Paul comes to mind.
Reverse the effects though on the Nicolation system. History shows how desparately the Catholic Church has striven to keep the pew from reading the scriptures and stop depending upon the pulpit. It threatens their control. The Prostestant Church has done the same thing. How harmful would it be to the established ministerial heirarchy if the saints realized godly, Holy Ghost filled elder Bob is just as qualified to speak/teach the Word as godly, Holy Ghost filled, Bible College educated Paster Joe? How harmful would it be if the saints accept their individual responsibility for their own salvation and began to depend upon the Holy Spirit to discern/teach them in all things?
It would be catastrophic! The saints might actually begin to concentrate upon people - the widows, orphans, and poor among the congregation and the community - instead of financing mega cathedrals, exhorbiant salaries, and entertainment events. The LORD might even see fit to collectively restore healings, miracles, and deliverance. Trust me - the day is swiftly approaching when this will happen.
Again, simply looking at the Church as a whole; not any particular congregation. We are in the last of the last days and much of the Church has/is fallen into apostasy. That's why we must all discern what we hear and study against the Word for confirmation. We must mature quickly and be fully led of the Spirit. If the Holy Ghost tells us to take a break - we obey. If the Holy Ghost tells us to go elsewhere - we obey. If He tellls us to quit going altogether - we obey. He is LORD and He is more than capable of leading, guiding, and keeping us in right standing with Him.
You may never have to make that decision. Then again - you might. Regardless, continue to be sure to listen to the right Spirit. :)
Quote from: MellowYellow on October 13, 2012, 06:41:38 PM
Ooj I think you would absolutely LOVE Galen Thompson's writings on this subject.
Send me a link.
Quote from: Raven180 on October 14, 2012, 10:34:04 AM
QuoteWhen I use the term "church", I am speaking about the entire Body of Christ made up of all denominations or lack thereof. Believers are not confined to the Apostolics. The Body is a whole lot bigger than that. So, to even begin to comprehend what I'm talking about requires chucking that belief point. It's a stumbling block that blinds one to the larger issues. If someone can't fathom anyone else in "their" club, then how will they see the truth about the entire system? No, you have to be willing to step out of the camp for the journey into the wilderness.
This is really going to be the crux of it all. Some can and will do what you are asking; other can't or won't (or both).
In my experience, however, I've had true wilderness experiences with the Lord, where it was just me and Him, without having to leave behind my church, my fellowship, etc. I've found the wilderness to be a deeply personal, intensely private spiritual experience not contingent upon my surroundings or even the people in my life.
I had a full two years (at least) the first go around, and then again over a year the next go round where God took me into the wilderness. At the end of the first time, God gave me a vision of myself all alone standing in a hole. I asked Him, "God, where have I been these last two years"? He said "Digging ditches". And so I was, for in the vision, I was standing in a massive ditch I myself had dug out. God then told me to end with a fast (which I did) after which, God built in my mind/spirit a hedge, founded in the ditch I had built. This hedge finished God's healing process in my mind from before I was born again. Spiritual attacks from the enemy of which I used to have no defense suddenly couldn't get to me. I was protected. This was my first wilderness experience.
My second, one that I am still currently in, has had to do with my health. Long story short, God told me in prayer "To the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak" From that, I knew God was going to allow me a time of personal weakness for the express purpose of being changed, so I could continue to become all things to all men that I may by all means win some.
Two weeks later I had a massive asthma attack that eventually cost me my job. From that point forward, I've had so many varied health concerns and issues (including all sorts of tests and treatments, including a surgery from which I am still not recovered and the possibility of needing a much more severe surgery that I am putting off) and when I pray, or have elders anoint me in the name of the Lord, the answer is always the same: God re-energizes my mind and attitude toward suffering, but does not heal my body. And I'm okay. I have changed and grown much. I have, as you say, re-evaluated many things, including my own mortality, and have come to different views and conclusions that I would have never come to without the experience.
But through it all, I've never had to leave behind or walk away from anything but my self. We will, of course, see where things take me and my family, and sometimes it's a challenge to stay reconciled when there are fundamental disagreements, but God has not yet instructed me to do anything else but be a servant, wash the saints feet, and love.
And you are being obedient to the Holy Spirit.
And this is what we must learn to respect among the brethren. Jesus even told Peter it was none of his business what the He required of John. Scripture also tells us not to compare ourselves with one another. This shows me that each of us have different purpose, function, and paths to walk in service to the Master. If we wonder on the validity of such commands, then pray. The LORD will definitely straighten one of us out.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on October 14, 2012, 04:31:50 PM
Reverse the effects though on the Nicolation system. History shows how desparately the Catholic Church has striven to keep the pew from reading the scriptures and stop depending upon the pulpit. It threatens their control. The Prostestant Church has done the same thing. How harmful would it be to the established ministerial heirarchy if the saints realized godly, Holy Ghost filled elder Bob is just as qualified to speak/teach the Word as godly, Holy Ghost filled, Bible College educated Paster Joe? How harmful would it be if the saints accept their individual responsibility for their own salvation and began to depend upon the Holy Spirit to discern/teach them in all things?
It would be catastrophic! The saints might actually begin to concentrate upon people - the widows, orphans, and poor among the congregation and the community - instead of financing mega cathedrals, exhorbiant salaries, and entertainment events. The LORD might even see fit to collectively restore healings, miracles, and deliverance. Trust me - the day is swiftly approaching when this will happen.
It sounds to me a lot like you are saying we don't need preachers. Is this what you intended to say? I'll hold further comment until you respond, because I don't want to go off half-cocked on an assumption.
Isaac, he didn't say preachers but a pastor, for himself.
Man, you guys have said so much. I don't think I can jump in and add input to it all.
But here's a bit. I get leery of the "need/have to" perspective. It sounds and feels too much like legalism. Since when do I solely judge what is good by what I think I can merely survive with/without? It should be on what the Word says God has given and what is profitable. Pastors are profitable, therefore, I want one, whether I can pinpoint them and make it a heaven or hell issue or not. I want a prophet, I want a teacher, I want an evangelist, I want an Apostle. If I can be connected to those and give them permission to speak into my life, I am experiencing MORE of God's Word! Bad pastors, or churches doing it wrong does not negate what is still ideal, and that optimum picture includes pastors.
God gave us the 5 fold ministry, the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, giftings. Therefore, since God gave it, for MY good, I want it all and feel like I'm just that human that I need it all. Also, because of it, it validates me or anyone that feels led to be used or called in that area, and values what they have to bring. It's in the Word, it's valuable, I'm not about to tout that I don't need what God has provided. Should my husband ever be called to pastor (I have no inclination that he does) then it would be hard to value something I don't think I actually need. It would also be more difficult to answer the call or receive a word from that office if I have devalued it's importance in MY life. Yet, if God established the role, I must and others need it. That's me, perhaps I'm just that pathetic. ;)
One thing I LOVE too about this discussion is a little bit of the fact that within my testimony of where God has brought me from I get to brag on God a bit about seeing Him glorified in the healthiest local assembly that I've ever seen/experienced.
Both in church services and outside in regular life and our cell groups, the gifts of the Spirit are in operation. This morning a little mama testified how last week her husband was prayed for by the laying on of hands and one of the guys that was praying specifically prayed against any blood disorder. She had not shared that is what he had. At the Dr's this week he was given a clean bill of health whereas last week the Dr.s were decided about his issue.
I love to ask the question back: "Are you seeing a liberty of God in the way you're doing things?" Because in years past when we went to a different church I struggled with the question should I ever be asked if the things we read that are available to us in the Bible, are being utilized at my local assembly, in or out of church services. If I had seen the power of God demonstrated in the unity and in the ministries and in the gifts that I profess possess truth. If we are submitted to the Word, wouldn't we reflect the Word? Boy, is it wonderful to be able to say YES. I look forward to the moments in the Bible studies I get to do where I'm asked if I've actually seen that kind of love, unity, ministering, healings, power of God demonstrated! And THAT I believe empowers those that God uses me to plant or water to be discipled into a Christian that has a great big horizon.
I KNOW it's not like that everywhere. And neither is my church perfect. It has it's own struggles. But I'm not about to seclude myself from the body which is both Christ and His Bride. And though it sounds idealistic to have an unadulterated experience with God by looking solely to my own discernment of Him, it seems to fall short when we are bombarded with SO MUCH unGodly, anti-Christ propaganda in every public setting and our own humanity. So then it seems to actually tip the scales to unnecessarily cause us to fight just to survive on our own. And I understand the appeal of wanting to become strong and see what we're made of. However, I believe that this can still be done if there is a healthy body of Christ to fellowship, not socialize, with. When we dig deeper for God, trials come anyway, and often through relationships that hit closer to home than just a co-worker. And since our hearts can be deceitfully wicked and left to ourselves we can get off on all kinds of craziness that sounds so legit in our own thinking, it seems unnecessarily dangerous. For me, to me. Let every man answer to God for himself.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on October 14, 2012, 04:34:56 PM
Quote from: MellowYellow on October 13, 2012, 06:41:38 PM
Ooj I think you would absolutely LOVE Galen Thompson's writings on this subject.
Send me a link.
It looks like they are doing some missions in Europe. I can't find a link. I heard him speak and it blew my mind. I bought his synopsis? that is crazy thick and chuck FULL of in depth study of leadership and the body's working altogether. In that setting, which was more of a casual teaching setting, the gifts were in operation. There was an acute move of God in it as the Word resonated so deeply. He doesn't advocate the propping up of any leaders whatsoever, and yet within the Biblical setup, it reverences each and every place of the body, which doesn't take away from the value of the roles of pastor and ect but reveals the necessity and value of all the other roles of the body. That is the very best I have ever heard or read on the subject and it impacted me so much that it wasn't about bringing down the 5 fold ministry, but bringing UP everyone else. Many want to just remove the role of authority in their life for everyone to be equal, but that is the beauty of it. To reverence the roles IS to make all equal.
Anyway, I'm not as articulate as you guys but I thoroughly have enjoyed this discussion. I'm not sure if either of us is really open to be swayed by the other, even if we say we are. I appreciate the chance to chime in if only to give example of a local assembly being at least somewhat successful. 10 yrs ago I would have probably agreed 100%. But I hadn't experienced what I have now that lines up with the Bible. Now, while I understand where people are coming from when they break away for something else, it's cause they focussed on all the flaws instead of pursuing with this very flawed humanity, for greater things, with grace saturating it all, working towards perfection.
Quote from: Psalm_97 on October 14, 2012, 07:32:48 PM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on October 14, 2012, 04:31:50 PM
Reverse the effects though on the Nicolation system. History shows how desparately the Catholic Church has striven to keep the pew from reading the scriptures and stop depending upon the pulpit. It threatens their control. The Prostestant Church has done the same thing. How harmful would it be to the established ministerial heirarchy if the saints realized godly, Holy Ghost filled elder Bob is just as qualified to speak/teach the Word as godly, Holy Ghost filled, Bible College educated Paster Joe? How harmful would it be if the saints accept their individual responsibility for their own salvation and began to depend upon the Holy Spirit to discern/teach them in all things?
It would be catastrophic! The saints might actually begin to concentrate upon people - the widows, orphans, and poor among the congregation and the community - instead of financing mega cathedrals, exhorbiant salaries, and entertainment events. The LORD might even see fit to collectively restore healings, miracles, and deliverance. Trust me - the day is swiftly approaching when this will happen.
It sounds to me a lot like you are saying we don't need preachers. Is this what you intended to say? I'll hold further comment until you respond, because I don't want to go off half-cocked on an assumption.
No, I'm not saying we don't need preachers. They are gifts to the Body. I'm saying - according to the Bible - we do not need "preachers" lording over us as the head {nicolations}. No part of the Body is above or below any other part of the Body. Neither do we need a "covering" of any pastor or ministry, for Jesus takes care of that.
Not just for "me" but for each one of us. We are not to depend upon any other member of the Body to impart/lead/control us in any way, shape, or form. Jesus is the Head and has sent the Holy Ghost to lead/guide/counsel us on an individual basis and not through the mouthpiece of the gift of the ministry.
We all are affected by the last 1800 years of priestly rule. As such, it is very difficult to imagine a priesthood not "above" everyone else. We say we are all equal, but we defer to preachers as being "more equal". We shouldn't do that.
Quote from: MellowYellow on October 15, 2012, 03:33:37 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on October 14, 2012, 04:34:56 PM
Quote from: MellowYellow on October 13, 2012, 06:41:38 PM
Ooj I think you would absolutely LOVE Galen Thompson's writings on this subject.
Send me a link.
It looks like they are doing some missions in Europe. I can't find a link. I heard him speak and it blew my mind. I bought his synopsis? that is crazy thick and chuck FULL of in depth study of leadership and the body's working altogether. In that setting, which was more of a casual teaching setting, the gifts were in operation. There was an acute move of God in it as the Word resonated so deeply. He doesn't advocate the propping up of any leaders whatsoever, and yet within the Biblical setup, it reverences each and every place of the body, which doesn't take away from the value of the roles of pastor and ect but reveals the necessity and value of all the other roles of the body. That is the very best I have ever heard or read on the subject and it impacted me so much that it wasn't about bringing down the 5 fold ministry, but bringing UP everyone else. Many want to just remove the role of authority in their life for everyone to be equal, but that is the beauty of it. To reverence the roles IS to make all equal.
Anyway, I'm not as articulate as you guys but I thoroughly have enjoyed this discussion. I'm not sure if either of us is really open to be swayed by the other, even if we say we are. I appreciate the chance to chime in if only to give example of a local assembly being at least somewhat successful. 10 yrs ago I would have probably agreed 100%. But I hadn't experienced what I have now that lines up with the Bible. Now, while I understand where people are coming from when they break away for something else, it's cause they focussed on all the flaws instead of pursuing with this very flawed humanity, for greater things, with grace saturating it all, working towards perfection.
That's sounds like what I am so inadequately trying to say.
Quote from: MellowYellow on October 15, 2012, 03:16:40 AM
Isaac, he didn't say preachers but a pastor, for himself.
Man, you guys have said so much. I don't think I can jump in and add input to it all.
But here's a bit. I get leery of the "need/have to" perspective. It sounds and feels too much like legalism. Since when do I solely judge what is good by what I think I can merely survive with/without? It should be on what the Word says God has given and what is profitable. Pastors are profitable, therefore, I want one, whether I can pinpoint them and make it a heaven or hell issue or not. I want a prophet, I want a teacher, I want an evangelist, I want an Apostle. If I can be connected to those and give them permission to speak into my life, I am experiencing MORE of God's Word! Bad pastors, or churches doing it wrong does not negate what is still ideal, and that optimum picture includes pastors.
God gave us the 5 fold ministry, the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, giftings. Therefore, since God gave it, for MY good, I want it all and feel like I'm just that human that I need it all. Also, because of it, it validates me or anyone that feels led to be used or called in that area, and values what they have to bring. It's in the Word, it's valuable, I'm not about to tout that I don't need what God has provided. Should my husband ever be called to pastor (I have no inclination that he does) then it would be hard to value something I don't think I actually need. It would also be more difficult to answer the call or receive a word from that office if I have devalued it's importance in MY life. Yet, if God established the role, I must and others need it. That's me, perhaps I'm just that pathetic. ;)
One thing I LOVE too about this discussion is a little bit of the fact that within my testimony of where God has brought me from I get to brag on God a bit about seeing Him glorified in the healthiest local assembly that I've ever seen/experienced.
Both in church services and outside in regular life and our cell groups, the gifts of the Spirit are in operation. This morning a little mama testified how last week her husband was prayed for by the laying on of hands and one of the guys that was praying specifically prayed against any blood disorder. She had not shared that is what he had. At the Dr's this week he was given a clean bill of health whereas last week the Dr.s were decided about his issue.
I love to ask the question back: "Are you seeing a liberty of God in the way you're doing things?" Because in years past when we went to a different church I struggled with the question should I ever be asked if the things we read that are available to us in the Bible, are being utilized at my local assembly, in or out of church services. If I had seen the power of God demonstrated in the unity and in the ministries and in the gifts that I profess possess truth. If we are submitted to the Word, wouldn't we reflect the Word? Boy, is it wonderful to be able to say YES. I look forward to the moments in the Bible studies I get to do where I'm asked if I've actually seen that kind of love, unity, ministering, healings, power of God demonstrated! And THAT I believe empowers those that God uses me to plant or water to be discipled into a Christian that has a great big horizon.
I KNOW it's not like that everywhere. And neither is my church perfect. It has it's own struggles. But I'm not about to seclude myself from the body which is both Christ and His Bride. And though it sounds idealistic to have an unadulterated experience with God by looking solely to my own discernment of Him, it seems to fall short when we are bombarded with SO MUCH unGodly, anti-Christ propaganda in every public setting and our own humanity. So then it seems to actually tip the scales to unnecessarily cause us to fight just to survive on our own. And I understand the appeal of wanting to become strong and see what we're made of. However, I believe that this can still be done if there is a healthy body of Christ to fellowship, not socialize, with. When we dig deeper for God, trials come anyway, and often through relationships that hit closer to home than just a co-worker. And since our hearts can be deceitfully wicked and left to ourselves we can get off on all kinds of craziness that sounds so legit in our own thinking, it seems unnecessarily dangerous. For me, to me. Let every man answer to God for himself.
Again.... not saying anyone has to leave their congregation. Not in the least. All I've said is to examine the Nicolation Doctrine, be led of the Spirit and not the pastor, and obey the Holy Spirit no matter what He says to do.
It may mean or be beneficial to separate ones self from "church" for an unknown amount of Time, as the Spirit leads.
Why do we assume fellowship can only be found on Wednesdays, Sundays, and Revivals in the enclosures of a "church service"? Why would fellowship with Believers at work, Walmart, the internet, telephone, or the living room be any less sanctioned by GOD than those in a "church"? Does not the Bible say: Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them? Did not Jesus say no longer would you have to worship in a central location or temple to be with GOD?
I think what upsets so many is not the
necessity of the ministry - we do need those giftings - but rather challenging the unbiblical
rule of the ministry. Most Christians are afraid to do anything w/o the approval of "pastor". Even if the Holy Ghost says differently. That's why so many condemn themselves for missing "church", for they are unwittingly - but sincerely - serving an idol. That's why it needs to be broken so that Christ can be Head of His Body.
Not everyone can yet crucify themselves in this area. However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
You sound like you have come thru this fire and are free. Interaction with the Body is not a matter of control or comparison. That's great. Many though, still do not see the need. And that's why we pray for one another and the Body in general. We pray the LORD would be merciful in judgment, opening the eyes, ears, and hearts of HIS people so we can be healed.
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on October 16, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
No, I'm not saying we don't need preachers. They are gifts to the Body. I'm saying - according to the Bible - we do not need "preachers" lording over us as the head {nicolations}. No part of the Body is above or below any other part of the Body. Neither do we need a "covering" of any pastor or ministry, for Jesus takes care of that.
Not just for "me" but for each one of us. We are not to depend upon any other member of the Body to impart/lead/control us in any way, shape, or form. Jesus is the Head and has sent the Holy Ghost to lead/guide/counsel us on an individual basis and not through the mouthpiece of the gift of the ministry.
We all are affected by the last 1800 years of priestly rule. As such, it is very difficult to imagine a priesthood not "above" everyone else. We say we are all equal, but we defer to preachers as being "more equal". We shouldn't do that.
I see what you're saying, but I still disagree with that one little word I took the liberty of bolding and underlining.
Just so everyone is aware, I've been reading along. I just don't have internet at home--only at work--so when I finish my five days on, I don't have much time to get back and get in until the next week. But I'm following. Keep up the good posts! :)
Quote from: Psalm_97 on October 17, 2012, 05:24:40 AM
Quote from: onli-one-jehovi on October 16, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
No, I'm not saying we don't need preachers. They are gifts to the Body. I'm saying - according to the Bible - we do not need "preachers" lording over us as the head {nicolations}. No part of the Body is above or below any other part of the Body. Neither do we need a "covering" of any pastor or ministry, for Jesus takes care of that.
Not just for "me" but for each one of us. We are not to depend upon any other member of the Body to impart/lead/control us in any way, shape, or form. Jesus is the Head and has sent the Holy Ghost to lead/guide/counsel us on an individual basis and not through the mouthpiece of the gift of the ministry.
We all are affected by the last 1800 years of priestly rule. As such, it is very difficult to imagine a priesthood not "above" everyone else. We say we are all equal, but we defer to preachers as being "more equal". We shouldn't do that.
I see what you're saying, but I still disagree with that one little word I took the liberty of bolding and underlining.
Would you please explain why yourself or anyone else is not?
I already have explained it. Repeatedly. And so has MellowYellow.
But to recap: While I have seen churches where the pastor is dictator, in my experience such is the exception rather than the rule. In most churches I have been in, what you refer to as "nicolations" does not exist. Perhaps you should find a different church. If you're within shooting distance you're welcome to come to ours. :cool:
Quote from: Psalm_97 on October 23, 2012, 05:25:27 AM
I already have explained it. Repeatedly. And so has MellowYellow.
But to recap: While I have seen churches where the pastor is dictator, in my experience such is the exception rather than the rule. In most churches I have been in, what you refer to as "nicolations" does not exist. Perhaps you should find a different church. If you're within shooting distance you're welcome to come to ours. :cool:
Of course. I had overlooked my own statement about non-comprehension if the term "church" was limited to a single denomination or congregation. Forgive me. Both of you.
Thank you for the invitation too. Have to pass though. Besides, I'd hate to point out evidence that might ruin your outlook. :lol:
Enjoy talking to you.
I don't think those two thoughts are synonymous, OOJ. And this is what causes me to be suspect of you. Why are you immediately accusing anyone of being what you think is small minded in a subject because they may not fully agree with you on another? This is fruit from a contention. If we agree that there are so vast a number of variables even within one individual of being mature or learned in one subject yet perhaps lacking in another, and that not diminishing their value or opportunity for iron to sharpen iron, why dismiss Isaac and apparently me on both aspects of a subject when neither of us has even addressed what we believe qualifies a believer? There is a tinge of emotion that seems to be over riding your well thought out position. I say that in gentle grace that I hope you hear. I just see there is still something that hinders really having this conversation as brethren and it would require you to acknowledge and perhaps still experience a healthy local assembly and realize there are many more. And even step from there and exercise the grace that understands there is far more GOOD to focus on that allows issues such as this to be naturally shored up by striving toward and edifying instead of criticizing. The Kingdom of God is SO big! oh the testimonies I hear and read from around the world!
And it seems that when people get a broader horizon of what God is doing all over, all the time, it affects them and their local assembly sometimes in an unforeseen way. Leadership can change or leadership can be changed! Yet, I have yet to see the results I believe you want by the avenue you are choosing. Or by what you have presented here and shared of yourself, I'm sure it's only a smidgen of the whole picture, so I reserve judgement, which I don't care to have anyway. Even a prophet, who is stirred and directed by God to chasten, ends with hope and redemption and it isn't a socialist idealism. It always honors the governmental positions God ordained in the first place and doesn't undermine them or devalue them to ever suggest we don't need them. This isn't Bible language ever. And mostly because when prophets were criticizing, it was an actual direct Word from God and then instruction toward repentance. You are simply standing aside analyzing, unless you are currently also counseling pastors on building up their congregations? Especially if you are not faithfully giving and receiving from a local assembly of some sort being accountable and honoring a pastor in your life. God appointed brethren as high priests and manifested himself not as a pedestal king but a brother. We ALL need a brother to sharpen our iron as a pastor. If not, we truly don't have all the Word working in our lives. God gave it to us "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." If we don't have a pastor, we are lacking. Because we are not engaging in what God Himself has given us for our own perfection.
It may hold true SOME places, but what profit is it to those you are addressing? And while you are focussed on the lack, the lack could be being taken care of while we speak. It IS. Guaranteed. God's patience does not negate His sovereignty. Nobody can keep another from Jesus. Not even a rotten pastor. So the church is not what is having the issue so much as shallow Christians. Those who hunger and thirst shall be filled, soo... man is getting far too much credit and attention from you. :) I am not sure if I am coming across too harsh or not. I see your desire for the Church to mature, and I share it. However, I think there is still more personal journey to go to have wisdom for it. I say that because I believe a there's a time and place in my testimony that identifies where you are currently. Let me tell you. Yes, you have accurate points, you have legitimate concerns, but perhaps the focus needs tweaked. It's like praying for "revival" instead of unity. To have a refreshing and refocus, there must be unity. So to seek a broader, bigger thing of God toward His great feats automatically takes care of the small and petty things like discord. We cannot focus so much on ourselves. God is doing such marvelous things, OOJ. There are entire congregations coming to truth more and more. The Church is growing in how she is understanding Who she really is with God. Things we cannot even put on public forum yet because of unrest still in other countries. Children, teenagers, elderly are being stirred up/again. Oh how eminent the coming of the Lord is and when He comes He WILL find faith and a spotless bride. The Church is doing well. The confusion comes I think in part in our lack of discernment in whom the Church really is. We either align ourselves with the Church or we don't. The Church's destiny is not in jeopardy!
I don't take issue with what you pose is an actual issue at many assemblies. I simply think it unwise and unprofitable to put it across the board to the entire Church. So to try and fix or analyze it lumped with places that not only don't have that issue but are a thriving example of how it should be or maybe the closest thing there is thus far how it should be, brings miscommunication as we see here, I believe.
Any saved person is part of the Church, regardless of denomination. It isn't over till we're dead, there's always more to learn and more revelation to receive but that doesn't discount how far each of us have come. When one is born into the kingdom, they are a member of the Church.
We may disagree on what being "born" consists of OOJ, but that is an entirely different conversation. :)
Quote from: MellowYellow on October 23, 2012, 04:36:29 PM
Even a prophet, who is stirred and directed by God to chasten, ends with hope and redemption and it isn't a socialist idealism. It always honors the governmental positions God ordained in the first place and doesn't undermine them or devalue them to ever suggest we don't need them. This isn't Bible language ever. And mostly because when prophets were criticizing, it was an actual direct Word from God and then instruction toward repentance.
Please excuse me cherry-picking this part out of the whole post, but I wanted to comment about this thought. One of the coolest things about being a minister is that you get to encourage so many people so much. But if God does send you a message of correction, it is not one of excoriation, blasting the person who is doing wrong. If God has to correct someone, the message is always a gentle plea, not castigation, and if the hearer has to tear down something in his life the message always gives the tools to build back up the right way. :)
By the same token, if you hear a message loaded with shame and guilt, with no positive note in the whole sermon, that preacher probably enjoys blasting people. :roll:
I hope I didn't come across as blasting OOJ. I really do identify with his desire to see a healthy church making great strides of discipling souls. It is an honorable desire, a cause greater than himself, which we should ALL have. ♥
No, I didn't see your post as blasting. I was talking about some preachers I know around where I live, who shall remain nameless.
Quote from: MellowYellow on October 23, 2012, 05:00:39 PM
I hope I didn't come across as blasting OOJ. I really do identify with his desire to see a healthy church making great strides of discipling souls. It is an honorable desire, a cause greater than himself, which we should ALL have. ♥
I didn't take it as blasting either. Not in any way, shape, or form. We're all mature believers having a nice conversation. I like those.
A lot has been said since I was last able to fully contribute, so please indulge me a moment to swim upstream and comment.
OOJ,
Thanks for answering my three questions. I anticipated such responses. Thank you for sharing. It was a nice over all contribution to the post.
Mel,
If I were you, I wouldn't doubt your capacity to contribute. Much of what you are saying is worth the read and does well to service and communicate your p.o.v. Well done.
As for my input:
All that has so far been said goes back to the main point of the post. That right now, within modern Christianity, especially in the U.S. if nowhere else, there is a great divide, an almost bi-polar approach to living for God.
There is a pull on the church right now. Two directions. Direction one is: keep your lamp full, be prepared, the Bridegroom is coming. The second pull is: use up your oil, get comfortable, and take your chances. This duality is tearing people and churches apart. Maybe no one else is seeing it, but I am seeing it daily. It's like the only thing God seem to be talking to me about lately.
While this post has gone the way that it has, the purpose for its existence still remains. Personally, I have never seen so much anguish in the lives of believers who should otherwise be full of the Holy Ghost and faith. It's more than just the law of sin and the carnal mind. It's more than just unbelief and the struggles that come with the flesh.
All that can be shaken is being shaken. And too many people don't know where they stand. Why? Simple. Because a double-minded man (i.e. a bi-polar Christian) is unstable in
ALL his ways. Such a person can receive nothing from the Lord.
Where does this all come from and what can be done about it? Those are my main concerns. OOJ offered his take on the reason why and some solutions. But is anyone else seeing what I'm seeing or am I alone in my perceptions?
The only way I can describe it is thus:
Jeremiah 31:15,
QuoteThus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
God is trying to succor and help His people, but they go on weeping, refusing to be comforted. I personally know so many saints who just can't seem to get to that place of peace and rest the Holy Ghost offers. We are supposed to be lively stones, even Jerusalem rejoicing. But instead, we are just so many dry bones living without hope. It makes no sense.
Good post.
I keep going back to the Mt. of Transfiguration. 3 disciples climbed & worked for revelation, sacrificed to be where Jesus was. While at the same time the rest of the disciples were toiling away trying the cast a demon out of a child.
We can either focus our fight on all the devils or on getting higher towards God. Both are exhausting, both will have great opportunity to see God be amazing = testimony.
But oh how the Mt. changes ME & increases my intimacy w/ Him! And the by product is more understanding and faith in who God is and His authority.
Here's my take, for what it's worth.
It is a common thing for trends, movements, revivals, and etc. to follow a typical pendulum procession from one side/extreme to the other. The modern Pentecostal movement, for lack of a better term, is relatively new in the history of Christendom (a loose term meant to mean anyone who claims affiliation with Jesus as Christ, regardless of doctrine or the current spiritual state of their soul). Oneness Pentecostalism is even newer. And OP has followed just such a pendulum-type course.
Right now, although there is growth (numerically and otherwise) the fact is, those people who might come under such an umbrella as OP, are quite small in number. While the argument could be made about the strait and narrow road having few upon it, the fact is, when a group of people find themselves as the minority in an otherwise unimaginably gigantic ocean of "others", one thing tends to always happen: an inferiority complex develops that causes the minority group to increase internal cohesion and solidarity based upon emphasizes their distinctive differences from the rest, to the almost complete exclusion or acknowledgement of the similarities. This is a standard event which occurs, and in and of itself, is not necessarily or automatically a bad thing.
However...
The doctrines, beliefs, and lifestyle choices that make OP different than the "others" of Christendom, however right they may be, have also isolated OP people. Not necessarily isolated them from other people within Christendom. Rather, it has isolated OP believers from the rest of the whole counsel of God regarding doctrines typically ignored or misunderstood to the point that all any average OP person can see is the doctrinal differences that make them an OP.
What do I mean?
Take a look at the most popular literature coming out of OP circles. It's all still and only based in the distinctives: oneness theology, speaking in tongues, baptism in the name of Jesus, holiness and standards, etc. Any other teachings out there based in other Biblical subjects only exist insomuch as they reflect and comment upon the distinctives. Granted, there's nothing wrong with having a distinctive; people of the Name should be different. But the pendulum of the movement has been far too long to one side.
Take a look at these often ignored Biblical doctrines:
- Grace
- Justification
- Propitiation
- Atonement
- Substitution
The fact is, way too many OP believers have no functional conception of these doctrines or what part they play in the message of salvation. Average OP believers only know, "I got baptized and spoke in tongues".
Jesus is highly divorced from the gospel these days. His only mention is in our baptismal formula. Otherwise, except for a quick nod toward death, burial, and resurrection, He's almost completely forgotten. Or if not, then still, what He actually did and what it means for us is.
I know so many believers who have "obeyed the gospel", who have gone through the whole Acts 2:38 experience, who can recite all the oneness proof-texts in their sleep, and can't manage to walk by faith and live in the hope of the very gospel they obeyed. My brothers and sisters in the Lord walk defeated, joyless lives, looking back on a historical moment in time when the day of salvation came and went, and don't have any faith in anything apart from memories of a baptism that happened years ago.
So why is there a dichotomy of focus? Why are there so many bi-polar Christians these days? My take is this: We've been misled. We have focused so much on our distinctives, on those things which make us OP, that we've completely missed the boat on all the other doctrines related to the gospel which under-gird our salvation. And because we don't understand these things, because they've been so routinely ignored and undervalued, we have a whole heap of people whose faith for salvation is based more on what they did to get saved than on what the Savior did to actually save them.
Only by entering into God's rest can one truly cease from their own works (Hebrews 4:10). Too many people are working at trying to add their own personal merits to the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection.
People pray. Why? Because they think prayer time makes them righteous before God. People fast. Why? Because people think it twists God's arm and grants them special favor with the Lord. People attend church. Why? Because they think God's affection and love is based on being in a certain physical location at a certain point in time on certain days of the week. People minister. Why? Because they feel like God only cares about them if they fulfill their perceived ministerial duties.
This is not so. These things are works, which while important, do not cause righteousness before God. They don't grant us extra grace and favor. They don't earn God's love. And they don't validate our existence in the eyes of God. So what says the Word?
Romans 4:4-8,
Quote4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Why are people in the church pining away at an unfulfilled life in Christ? Why do so many saints refuse to be comforted by the Comforter? Because they've been trusting in themselves and their own personal efforts to merit peace with God and living in the OP distinctives to the neglect of the rest of the Word of God. But because no personal effort or merit can grant peace with God (See Romans 5:1), and because OP distinctives are not all there is to TRUTH, people have no real spiritual peace, and therefore no rest in the Lord, and so, are being spiritually torn apart, divided asunder, not knowing which way is up or where to turn, i.e. they are bi-polar.
I recently taught a Bible study and began speaking on the relationship of the gospel to peace, that indeed the gospel is more than once called "the gospel of peace" in the Bible. Almost as soon as I started, tears hit a sister's eyes. It wasn't me, it was the Spirit ministering. Later, she tells me (paraphrasing) "It's been seven years since I've been saved, and I've never really had peace..." She said more, but the point is made. SEVEN YEARS of being filled with the Spirit and the Prince of Peace, the Lord of Peace, the God of Peace inside of her can't get her to a place of peace no matter how hard He tries and has been trying, for seven years. She's not backslidden. She's not a hypocrite. She's not false in anyway. She's just the normal OP believer, who hasn't ever been fully indoctrinated into the substitutionary atoning death of the Lord Jesus Christ. She's been otherwise indoctrinated into all the OP distinctives, but man! what a long time to be treading water, waiting for something inside of her to change. Many times, it's just about wrecked her faith. Why? Because she tries to please God with OP works, and not simple Bible faith. She admits it. This doesn't degrade obedience in any way. Rather, it upholds it and puts the necessity of it in it's proper place. Obedience just for the sake of doing so, with no real reason apart from some hard to grasp command that seems vaguely arbitrary, is not obedience; it's rote, loveless conformity.
This is what I am seeing all over, and am hearing from the Lord when I pray. I hope no one takes me the wrong way, or misconstrues my post. I am for Acts 2:38 and everything else that makes for our distinctives. I just want the rest of the story to be told and for my beloved brothers and sisters to be made whole.
I appreciate that you are not saying "all." And in so, I agree pretty much.
I have noticed another variable to that however.
We have to look at our OP American heritage. More often than not it sounds like, and makes sense, that many who experienced Acts salvation were those that were acutely aware of their need for Him beyond spiritually but also just for survival. It's been our blessing and a challenge that many converts have been lower class, lower income, lower education. I see a poor minded culture that has had much influence on the shape on the OP movement. While this does not automatically mean less manners and sense, it often can.
I have personally seen mine own struggle with it. My views on physical and emotional health growing up, even in the church, were not Godly whatsoever. My views on child rearing, money, and relationships also were such a far cry from what the Bible says. God has been and continues to be so very gracious with me. It didn't change me permanently in any area until I understood not just the surface wrong but the source perspective that causes me to not reflect the Word in the first place. Then, God could increase me. Because I wasn't merely just trying to obey another rule, which does have it's place, but I wanted the TRUTH of that rule/law to be a part of who I was so that I didn't even have to struggle with obeying, I was empowered to be. Hiding the Word in my heart. This has also given me more grace, though I still have so far to go, with others. Yes, they can have the H.G. honestly and sincerely and still be so wrong on many things. They are not done potentially growing until they're Dead. Thank the Good Lord Jesus, neither am I. THAT's my God. That is the God I want and need and thus the God I want for others. And that is who God is. Full of mercy, grace, compassion.
This is vital to recognize I believe because while I find your post is true, I think it is true relative to those still subject to simple mindedness. And on one hand, God is not confusing, He is clear and simple enough for a child to receive and because of that, many do not grow much further, afraid of compromising the sweet basic truths. The sweet simple truth brought them to the new birth experience and will continue to do so. In our American OP history, many have become preachers based on that alone. I believe this is what causes roller coaster Christians. Pray through on Sunday instead of every day, hear preaching a couple times a week instead of experiencing that deep overwhelming sovereignty of God's word daily and hearing from God themselves regularly, loving on people after a good altar call instead of getting involved in people's everyday happenings for the sake of edifying. It's plain old worldliness still thriving in an immature Christian's life. They see people around them stop preaching those things and see them FALL. What is failed to recognize is that there is a difference between teaching all the OP standard subjects WITH the rest of the Bible, and ditching the subjects altogether. That preaching grace while still holding to the fundamental truths isn't compromise or on the way to it. However, we need discernment that preaching grace while tearing down those who we once called brethren, is a sure sign that grace is NOT there.
And I say that with a very sober spirit. Regardless if it is a OP tearing down a now charismatic, or a bitter charismatic tearing down a OP. NEITHER is grace. BOTH have submitted to the same seductive spirit of pride. Preaching the Word brings conviction, revelation and discernment.
While those things are such turn offs and negative witnesses, it is something of the OP culture, and I HAVE to have grace or I am in conflict with my very self and God. Add onto that the lack of interaction with other people and churches around the WORLD and you have people who may only be hearing the preaching and teaching of a few from their church or section. Which is fine if it's healthy. Raven180, there are SO many teachers and preachers focusing on far more than initial salvation and separation! However, not everyone is hearing about it. This is why I think using media for God is such a powerful tool. There are countless sermons and lessons and commentary to keep us busy for 10+ lives each. GOOD teaching that goes into more depth. But we know that if someone is not being faithful, submitting themselves to God daily, they won't have the capacity to receive it, let alone retain and apply it. It goes over their head and they focus on style rather than substance. It somewhat is revealing. I've heard some surface extremely boring people say some profound things of God. While culture can be a stumbling block, it most certainly cannot hold a hungry soul from God increasing them. A poor backwoods preacher can be abounding in revelation, and because of that, God never leaves them out by themselves. God brings us to those that help us get to where we are trying to go and visa versa.
This issue, I believe comes down to a very bottom line. We either really love JESUS, or we love religion. I grow more appreciative of the landmarks that have been made even since Azusa St. I have to realize that they were still not perfect. They had received revelation about the new birth experience, but we know that's only the beginning. I truly cannot complain and criticize how ignorant they were when they were ground breakers for what we have today. They were leading towards God. And there are leaders today doing the same thing. I cannot bring myself to focus much on the fact that they or everything they preach isn't perfect because they are farther than their fathers, which were farther than theirs.
I'm so glad that there is such a line in the sand for oneness, new birth, and separation. We can't afford to lose it, but neither can we afford to stand there all day. We have to take it with us to the next level, having that muscle built that it's not a heavy thing but has become essential survival nutriment which we've adapted with who we are/our own weight. To put it down makes someone feel lighter and more free for sure, but they will not survive.
At some point it hit me. :pound:
*We see the birth of the Church in Acts that is grafted into Israel.
*We read historically the boom even under persecution of the Church.
*We see the evidence of the gospel preached all over the world. There are still today underground churches in closed middle east countries that it is very hard to get word to and from other than through the H.G.
*We know the turn in events that because there was such a lack of availability of the Word just a few hundred years after the Apostles that evil men took advantage of that and twisted the Word to use over man instead of empowering man. ie: Nicene creed, etc.
*It's no wonder then why the years after were called the dark ages being abused by the Roman "church." Yet, even during those times, there are cases of nuns and random people getting the HG evidenced by tongues and then being persecuted.
*We see the struggle for religious freedom as God put a conscience in us all and man yearned for the freedom to seek and worship God.
*Fast fwd to coming to America to do that. Oh man was STILL SO messed up! But he was moving forward, he was reaching.
*Until finally, the gates bust open wide to an Azusa St. and we see that though we are still such flawed humans, that strides have been made!
To look at all of that and see where we are now... Yes. there are still a great many issues that we must work out of ourselves, and many take that freedom to be complacent, butwe are growing.
I have to highlight that. It's so easy to see how we fall short. In fact that is the EASIEST thing to see and God has and continues to work a different perspective in me. That He is doing what we give Him room to do and I believe that room is growing.
I see the things you see, Raven. But I also see a bride working out her own salvation. I see some aligning with who the Bride really is and some falling away being seduced by demons appearing as angels of light. Though God will hold pastors/leaders accountable for their impact upon those around them, there will not be ONE person who can blame a pastor/leader for their demise to hell. I have come to the conclusion that while the Church is not yet perfected, neither is all the people in the churches actually in the Church. Tares up with the wheat. So I pray for discernment. Not for who's saved and who's not but for what is of God and what is His bride, really. That is only found in prayer and not just reading the Bible but Loving what the Bible says!
I know of one older gentleman who got the revelation of the oneness of God during a trinitarian Bible study. And he has never looked back. It simply hit him how very wrong it was and that there was one God and He was Jesus. Also, a man that received the revelation of Jesus Name & necessity of baptism while watching a televangelist on TV explain why baptism isn't necessary! Nothing can keep God from answering a hungry soul's yearning for Him!
Galatians 3:2 comes to mind.
Quote from: Raven180 on October 24, 2012, 07:53:44 AM
All that has so far been said goes back to the main point of the post. That right now, within modern Christianity, especially in the U.S. if nowhere else, there is a great divide, an almost bi-polar approach to living for God.
There is a pull on the church right now. Two directions. Direction one is: keep your lamp full, be prepared, the Bridegroom is coming. The second pull is: use up your oil, get comfortable, and take your chances. This duality is tearing people and churches apart. Maybe no one else is seeing it, but I am seeing it daily. It's like the only thing God seem to be talking to me about lately.
While this post has gone the way that it has, the purpose for its existence still remains. Personally, I have never seen so much anguish in the lives of believers who should otherwise be full of the Holy Ghost and faith. It's more than just the law of sin and the carnal mind. It's more than just unbelief and the struggles that come with the flesh.
All that can be shaken is being shaken. And too many people don't know where they stand. Why? Simple. Because a double-minded man (i.e. a bi-polar Christian) is unstable in ALL his ways. Such a person can receive nothing from the Lord.
Where does this all come from and what can be done about it? Those are my main concerns. OOJ offered his take on the reason why and some solutions. But is anyone else seeing what I'm seeing or am I alone in my perceptions?
The only way I can describe it is thus:
Jeremiah 31:15,
QuoteThus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
God is trying to succor and help His people, but they go on weeping, refusing to be comforted. I personally know so many saints who just can't seem to get to that place of peace and rest the Holy Ghost offers. We are supposed to be lively stones, even Jerusalem rejoicing. But instead, we are just so many dry bones living without hope. It makes no sense.
I feel with ya. The LORD has been trying to get through to His people for quite awhile now. Many do not heed Him; for whatever reason there might be. A few months ago, the LORD gave me a mental image of this. The scripture of gathering like a hen gathers her chicks came to mind. I could see - as from a great height – a gigantic Jesus kneeling on the ground, with His arms out-stretched to encircle the hundreds and thousands of saints running towards Him. Our only safety lies in Him.
How appropriate the mention of the Ten Virgins, for that parable is a very good object lesson to where we find ourselves today. All of us came out of the World and into the Church while on our way to Heaven. We've been in here waiting for the Bridegroom for 2000 years. Subsequently – as the Bridegroom tarried - the entire Church fell into slumber and sleep. Then the 3rd Day arrived and the cry went out that the Bridegroom comes! {Hosea says after two days He will revive us. A day is like 1000 years. I believe the events of 9/11/01 began the Time of Sorrows setting up the soon return of Jesus the Messiah.}
Since that time, the wise in the Church have begun to trim their lamps. (The lamp, the wick, and the oil are all types of the Word of GOD.) I understand this to mean removing all the soot and waste that prevents the wick from providing full illumination. A lot happened while we slumbered and slept. Tradition replaced the oil and gummed up the wick, thereby giving off a sooty, sporadic light that is very dim. That's why so much of the Church has trouble comprehending anything beyond what brought them to salvation: there is no oil and the wick needs trimming. Now the time of the Bridegroom's coming is here, and He commands us to go out (into the dark) and meet Him.
I believe what you are seeing/sensing is a result of personally "trimming your lamp". The body is the container, the Word is the oil, the transformed mind is the wick, and the Holy Spirit is the flame. In our minds, we are to "trim" everything that doesn't line up with the Word in order for the oil to burn purely. The wise do this and the foolish do not. The foolish are stirring from sleepy incomprehension, without oil, and preparing to meet the Bridegroom based upon inaccurate understandings like works to earn salvation and keeping religious "don'ts" The sad part is: we can't give them our oil (illumination/understanding) because they must go to the source and buy it for themselves. They must return to the pure Word for 100% illumination, rather than depend upon anyone else. Only that will make the foolish, wise.
We are dry bones because we're coming out of slumber. Remember, we do not die, but sleep. The vision of Ezekiel's bones is a type of us being made into the image of Christ prior to His return. We are awaiting the moment when we truly become the sons of GOD. The moment we too perform miracles, testify boldly, see continual results of the Holy Spirit when multitudes are instantly converted in the streets and homes. But we can't do that by staying in the Camp. By that I mean simply doing what we've always done and expecting different results. The Virgins are called to go out and meet the Bridegroom. Because of that, the wise will observe many who refuse to be comforted, seemingly w/o hope.
There's a price to understanding the gap engulfing the Church. The LORD is requiring a choice to be made, just as Joshua did long ago. Some will choose to stay where they are accustomed to; while others will move on into the dark wilderness to meet Christ. To move on will mean there are friends, relatives, and congregations who do not yet understand "why?" Again, it may not be physical, but the separation will happen. It's impossible not to and meet the Bridegroom. {Lest any misunderstand – not talking about the rapture at this time. Talking about being 100% led of the Holy Spirit by the Word of GOD.}
I know it sounds like a cliché, but keep praying. Pray that their eyes will be opened to see; ears will be opened to hear, and heart will be opened to understand what the Spirit is saying to the churches.
When someone is walking outside the Word: Father forgive them they do not know what they do. Lay not this sin to their charge.
When given the opportunity to witness, exhort, correct – be ready to do so according to the Word.
Judgment must begin with the Church. Pray in judgment, He remembers mercy.
We're nearer the end where things get worse and worse. A line is being drawn in the sand. Let's be sure we make the right choice. Let's choose Jesus and trust Him as never before.
I hope there was some help in there. Not what I intended to write. It just came out this way.
Hmm... good points made. I'll have to think about them.
Raven.... I understand exactly what you're saying. It does sadden the heart to see so many saints struggling so. Yet did not the LORD warn us that there would be a famine of the Word in the last days?
You stated OP as being primarily whom you are referring to. Believe me, the rest of the Body suffers from the same malady. So many cling to their denominal doctrines to the exclusion of all else. Getting them off their beaten paths is somewhat difficult. And when you do, it has to be baby steps not to confuse or overwhelm their comprehension.
I have family who are OP, as well as Baptist and Assembly of God. I must confess to rarely trying to delve into deeper things of Christ because they just don't understand. Somehow it always manages to come back to the basic topics of initial salvation. It's heartbreaking because there is so much more to learn and share.
All I can recommend is prayer for their eyes, ears, and heart to be opened. Pray the LORD will send someone they will listen to and grow stronger in the grace of Jesus Christ. In the meantime, keep plugging away at whoever will hear.
To all,
I only mention OP because that is all I'm familiar with. I don't know much regarding any other group within Christendom. Or, if I do, it's not enough to make any concrete statements at this level. In addition, I would certainly never make blanket statements or try to speak for all. Besides being impossible, it would be quite arrogant to assert such things about so many millions.
Apart from that, I do know my own biases. Some of this is personality (I'm pragmatic leaning toward pessimistic, generally speaking) and some of it, I'm sure, has to do with my relatively young walk with the Lord (just shy of ten years saved).
Some went on a journey into Truth. They started in whatever denominational church or Christian faith and can say that they've walked with God for their whole life, even if they never were truly born again until later.
I was 24 when God saved me. Up until that time, I was not raised to be anything. There was no presence of God or faith in my life and home. There was no Bible in the home, we never said grace, never prayed, never cared about anything Lord-related.
So, for some of this, it's also perhaps an insight granted by God because of my particular set of circumstances coming into the faith. What I see many people going through are the same things I went through before I was saved. The emotional and spiritual problems plaguing today's saint are the emotional and spiritual problems God delivered me from and healed me of when He saved me. The list is extensive and maybe has a place here for another time.
But I can't help but wonder: if I am walking in victory over things that afflicted me pre-salvation, why is that so many are crawling in defeat, post-salvation, over the same things? There appears to be a dis-connect. I am not special. God is no respecter of persons. He can easily do for anyone what He did for me. Now, I know He is sovereign and chooses to do as He pleases. That's not the issue.
The issue is that there are some very simple Bible truths, that, if embraced and believed, would go a long way toward helping the bi-polar among us overcome and level out. But, as I wrote, these simple truths are routinely ignored or not taught, at least not on a large scale, popular level. Individual churches and local assemblies may have these truths taught in spades, but at regional, and national levels, i.e. at all the big conferences and crusades, and in many local churches, too, it's still the same message of milk--which I'm not against. But children of God cannot grow without meat. So like the sister I mentioned: seven years of never really being taught the doctrines of atonement and propitiation and how such doctrines make the gospel a gospel of peace, indicates to me that something is missing. A popular former evangelist and now pastor in my neck of the woods was often known to say, "It's time to get off the Acts 2:38 ba-ba, church".
I've been in the services and have seen it for myself. Congregations thunder their approval at the pentecostalisms preached (Biblical as they may be). They can't be contained. But, if a teacher strays from that for a moment, suddenly the room gets quiet, and no one knows how to care about or be excited about the deeper things of God. It's like we're all still camped at the Door, and no one really knows what's inside the rest of the Kingdom.
Have we come a long way? No doubt we have. If I gave the impression that I think all is lost or the church is a sinking ship, that wasn't my intent. The Lord will present to Himself a glorious church. I only desire to speak to this particular issue within the church, this dichotomy of focus that is strangling the life out of so many believers.
I look at Jesus and I hear Him say "My yoke is easy and my burden is light". And yet, for too many, living for Him is the hardest thing they've ever had to do. I know the fault does not lie in Christ; it's the flesh and the loathing it has for the cross. Some are lazy and indifferent and don't really believe. There are tares, as well. But some, I fear, have been nursing at the Word's breast-milk for far too long and can't grow beyond it because they don't have the spiritual teeth needed for the meat that will actually strengthen them to walk tall for Jesus. And with this in mind, it seems to me that the cultural church-i-anity that has grown up around OP tends to keep the young from being weaned.
After all, if a child is still breastfeeding ten years into their life, it's the mother's fault, not the child's. And man! that's what I want to see rectified.
I haven't known thousands of other people in other denominations but some.
When I was a kid, I always thought some of the secular Christians were very fake. They seemed to have relatively little petty drama and coming from a simple minded Pentecost, I was put off by their lack of zeal but curious about their daily living.
Now I have known some up close and personal, some through homeschooling, that I have since been thoroughly impressed with. I have since had a complete remake of my perception from the Lord I believe. It started with asking the question: "How can they have such disciplines of goodness without the Holy Ghost? and "Why, when we have the Holy Ghost/power of God in our lives, still have so much petty drama? It was seriously frustrating that some Pentecostals could have their own reality show just as ridiculous as all the others. The only difference being they don't use cuss words, dress trashy, or smoke/drink. Same conduct though of arguing, being disrespectful- especially towards children, all around poor life/relationship skills.
2 things I believe I understand now. 1.Things are not always as they seem. I learned there is a secular Christian culture from my parent's generation and back of suppression. It is unacceptable for many to address certain issues and instead they choose a comfortable pacifying shallow Christian walk of being a good person and thus work hard on being this good person but want little part of something that doesn't look refined... and Pentecost does not look refined... LOL So secular Christians often have a more laid back but disciplined first impression character.
2. Secular Christians are of no threat to the spiritual world without actually being passionate about spiritual things and Truth, ie: starting with having the Holy Ghost. So they also are not under spiritual attack as someone with the power of God experienced in their lives. However, many Pentecostals fail to actually use this power for anything but feeling the Spirit of God and getting their prayers answered. It seems to sit on a shelf not allowing it to transform their minds, or lead and guide them to ALL truth, which means truth of what is going on in their lives and hearts specifically. I think every single person is guilty of this at some point. It's so easy to not submit to God daily, pressing through to His presence, leveling ourselves so that God may deal with us plainly, and waiting on Him until we hear what HE wants to say, and studying the Bible so as to know His voice over our own imaginations. It is even easier when we go to good churches where people HAVE been praying and fasting and we feel the anointing and move of God consistently. Still others, because they got the Holy Ghost accompanied by great physical demonstration, I believe become a bit addicted to hype. When we are active we know our bodies release the "happy" chemicals called endorphins. I am convinced that some mistake this for the Holy Ghost and because of their own culture, it is accompanied with a lot of emotions. So then there is a dependence on physical activity and emotion to feel like God is moving.
The problem with this is, is that I believe God designed our body, mind and spirit to work together like that! The problem comes when we aren't addressing and growing in our character towards God. Then really only 2 out of 3 are being utilized, and the grace of God is SO patient and vast that God shows up and shows out so often so that He might draw us near. God is patient while we have "shout down" services even when we aren't going home and letting it forever change us. Because God is that good, He loves to love on us, He loves to bless us. It is for a witness though of how much He desires for us to know Him. If we took advantage of His goodness our entire lives until the very last week and then realized how much more to God there was and truly fell down and worshipped Him, and applied all that great preaching/teaching we've heard, it would be worth it. What we do with those moves of God and His Word reveals what's in OUR hearts.
That is why some will be able to say they did miracles and cast out devils in Jesus' name. They received the Holy Ghost, they recognized the moving of the Spirit, they were even sensitive enough to be used. If you're around this long enough, you discern lots of things. They even, in the moving of the Spirit, loved God. But that is not a seal of approval. King Saul prophesied so intensely in the Spirit until he shook off all his clothes! 1Sa 19:23 -24 Yet before and afterwards, he was corrupt. He fell right back into the same familiar messed up thinking. Israel had times where they both feared the Lord and served idols. 2Ki 17:33 I think many recognize this and is why there is still great push for separation/standards. Yet, it falls short if it is the rules preached more or over the actual Word of God. Because the internet is not where the issue is, the heart is. Cleanse our hearts and our lives will line up. We are washed by the Word.
So I guess what I'm attempting to say through out all of this is that it is a valid concern. YES. But what we are seeing is the fruit of individual's hearts. And we can talk about the issue even more extensively but at the end of the day, each individual person has to be hungry for meat and not just thirsty for milk. I notice that I never cease from still needing the easily absorbed simple truths of God, they help me even ingest the tougher truths. What we are seeing IS the wide way vs. the narrow way. It's not really about standards or doctrines, it's about hearts, imo. It doesn't matter what background we come from. If we are zealous for truth, God will bring us to it. If we really want what is in the Bible for the Church, God will lead us smack dab into it. If not, all the great preaching/teaching in the world won't do any good.
I was once that ignorant new convert, though I had a church upbringing. I sat on that pew and when the preacher/teacher said something beyond Acts 2:38, it was beyond me. But it stirred me! When I read it in the Word, it stirred me. It still stirs me! So we can't even judge how much a person is receiving something based on their response in their pew during a 2 hr service. Often times I was overwhelmed at that truth of God and didn't outwardly react much but when I got home, when I got alone with Jesus, I was so broken and hungry for what was said. Those are things I treasure. And some ARE what would be demonstrated as standards but really God worked me over on my worth to Him, my place in Him, less of me and more of Him. I am passionate about separation because I am passionate about trying to be like Him, with Him, pleasing to Him.
Keep preaching the Word, you guys! It never returns void. It continues to become someone's testimony or testify against them of God's goodness. I think in part the basics get reemphasized because there is a constant flow of needing both milk and meat in every sermon. There is a desperation to bring the opportunity for salvation in every message. Today is the day of salvation.. type thing. There's a place for it. As part of a church that has visitors every_single_Sunday, it's a priority to bring the Gospel to them. If it's not in the sermon, someone has to be sensitive to know someone is receptive and make the effort to tell them about it. In a larger church like mine, there are both plenty of people AND so many people we have to be careful that none are neglected. In a smaller church, there are often so little people to do it that it becomes habit for the pastor to cover it.
I think these discussions, if anyone is reading them besides us... maybe go a long way to help people think of the work there is to be done, of the greater things God is and wants to do. I hope so, because it's God's will that everyone knows Him intimately.
Hmph. I was reading onli_one_jehovi's post, reading Raven's post, outlining what I wanted to say... and then MellowYellow said it all first. :P
Great minds think alike I guess - and it saves me a lot of typing. :cool:
:highfive:
I see the only answer is to prayerfully keep talking/teaching/preaching the whole Word with everyone. Testifying of the specific miracles happening today. The hungry people will bite.
*At Head & Heart Ministers' Meeting in Nepal, October 21-24, 36 people received the Holy Ghost, 32 people were healed and 9 were baptized!
*Scism Christian University alumnus Sathyanandam Perumalla baptized six more people (he's baptized about 1800 in the last three and a half years, including over 500 pastors). One of them, Solomon, testifies that, when his kidneys failed from heavy liquor consumption, he had an operation and doctors declared him dead. His family kept his body with other corpses all night so the body could be taken the next morning for cremation as per Hindu customs. Solomon said two angels took him up, told him Jesus is only One True God and, just when his family was to cover his face immediately before cremation, the angels brought him back and he took a long breath. All the family members present witnessed this.
Then Solomon went to a pastor without consulting any of his family and asked to be baptized. He started witnessing to many and added to that church about 80 families but was not satisfied with his baptism. Finally he came to a UPC pastor when he heard about the new ministry started in Tuni, inquired about more detail and they called Missionary Stanley Scism for further discussion. Scism went there and answered many questions and gave clarification. Immediately Solomon was ready for baptism, along with his wife and the elder of his church and the elder's wife and also another friend. Please continue to pray for these new saints to be very great witnesses among their villages and cities.
I wish there was a better network of American testimonies. Nathan and I love missions period, but foreign missions seem to share more.
I know this post kind bit the dust already (and I'm not bumping it), but OOJ asked for a link to materials written by Galen Thompson, as referred to by MellowYellow.
She couldn't find a link.
But I have.
It's here:
http://go2teach.com/resources.html
So for her, or if OOJ is still around or checks in, I wanted to be able to share.
God bless.
Galen is a good guy, he lives around the corner from me. He and his son are working on a new ministry for males without dads.
Quote from: Raven180 on May 17, 2013, 09:20:52 AM
I know this post kind bit the dust already (and I'm not bumping it), but OOJ asked for a link to materials written by Galen Thompson, as referred to by MellowYellow.
She couldn't find a link.
But I have.
It's here:
http://go2teach.com/resources.html
So for her, or if OOJ is still around or checks in, I wanted to be able to share.
God bless.
Awesome link! Thanks so much! I think a number of ministers on GP would really enjoy that link!
Yep. Thanks for the link. I'm going now to check it out.