Truth in lyrics

[The Cold Water Kid]

Our choir sings a lot of new songs. I'm trying to make the switch, but I've noticed a recurring theme that distracts me. I've noticed many of the new songs will include phrases like "I hear you [Jesus] singing over me.." or "I saw the angels in heaven...", etc. I have doubts that the writer of "I hear you [Jesus] singing over me..." literally heard Jesus singing over him/ her. I suppose it is possible, but it is also possible that they made it up because they thought it sounded good. Would making something like this up be OK? The pentecostal hymnal Sing Unto The Lord has songs like 'I see a Crimson Stream of Blood', but the author of that piece went on a three day fast locked in his study and saw a vision. He literally saw a crimson stream of Blood. To my thinking, this is not the same as getting together with a group of musicians and writing a song that sounds good; a song you think might be popular. What do y'all think? Does it matter if the writer really experienced the things they write about?

[Raven180]

This is a big deal. At least to me. I often make a careful analysis of songs to determine their doctrinal accuracy. If a song is not bearing witness to the truth, no matter how "good" it might sound, or how much we may like the artist, or the artist's other material, that one song, in my mind, must be discredited.

Or, when a song misquotes, and therefore, misappropriates a Scripture, this is also bothersome to me.

As far as assertions like the ones you mentioned, I haven't really considered it from that angle, but I guess it would depend upon the context. If the song is, for example, relaying a doxology from the Bible, it would be all well and good, even if we personally had never experienced it. However, those types of songs can exclude visitors.

One example is the old Pentecostal stand-by I've Got The Holy Ghost! Visitors, who may want to sing and worship with us, who don't have the Holy Spirit yet are put into awkward positions.

But going back to what you wrote, I have noticed that, especially in the evangelical movement, there is a tendency to go to extremes in language to try and convey meaning, that in the end, falls short, because we know the experience doesn't match the language, i.e. the language wouldn't be necessary if the experience was genuine. This creeps into music. Quite a bit, actually. When we use their songs, we tend to have more of a emotional, cathartic experience, as opposed to a worship experience. More about us and what God has done for us, then it is about God, and what we can and should do for Him. So something like "Jesus singing over us", which aludes to Zephaniah 3:17-19 or so, sounds nice, can cause us to be emotional, and experience catharsis, but it's not altogether true.

Me? I prefer the truth.

[SippinTea]

I have doubts that the writer of "I hear you [Jesus] singing over me..." literally heard Jesus singing over him/ her. I suppose it is possible, but it is also possible that they made it up because they thought it sounded good.

Considering that this particular phrase/thought is taken straight from Scripture, I hardly see where your argument holds water. Regardless of whether or not our physical ears hear Him singing over us, He is. And I see no reason why our spirit couldn't "hear" Him singing over us.

One example is the old Pentecostal stand-by I've Got The Holy Ghost! Visitors, who may want to sing and worship with us, who don't have the Holy Spirit yet are put into awkward positions.

Very, very true. But just because someone else hasn't experienced the same thing I have, doesn't mean I'm going to quit singing about it.

I DO think we need to perhaps be more cautious in how MANY songs in a particular service are along that line.

More about us and what God has done for us, then it is about God, and what we can and should do for Him.

Also true. But there's another side to that one, in my opinion. While it is indeed all about God, the songs that speak specifically of what He's done for us tend to be the ones that make our relationship with Him a little more tangible. I don't think those should be eliminated. Current popularity trends seem to have an overabundance of the "touchy-feely" songs, and I'd like to see us re-discover more songs about HIM... BUT... when you cut out ALL emotion, it would indicate to me that we're back to religion without relationship.

I'm thinking out loud here, Raven. It's not like I have all the answers.

[The Cold Water Kid]

But going back to what you wrote, I have noticed that, especially in the evangelical movement, there is a tendency to go to extremes in language to try and convey meaning, that in the end, falls short, because we know the experience doesn't match the language, i.e. the language wouldn't be necessary if the experience was genuine. This creeps into music. Quite a bit, actually. When we use their songs, we tend to have more of a emotional, cathartic experience, as opposed to a worship experience. More about us and what God has done for us, then it is about God, and what we can and should do for Him. So something like "Jesus singing over us", which aludes to Zephaniah 3:17-19 or so, sounds nice, can cause us to be emotional, and experience catharsis, but it's not altogether true.

Well said! I had begun to notice this too, but I hadn't articulated it like you have here.

[The Cold Water Kid]

Considering that this particular phrase/thought is taken straight from Scripture, I hardly see where your argument holds water.

John and Paul were called up into Heaven. They saw and heard many wonderful things. By your rational it would be OK for me to then write a story (or a song) about how I'd been called up into Heaven, so long as it was based on the Biblical accounts (or at least my interpretation of them) offered by John and Paul?

[titushome]

I think there is plenty of room for songwriters (and writers of other varieties as well) to exercise artistic/poetic license.  As long as they're not saying things that contradict the truth of the Scriptures, I often enjoy it.

[(R.I.P.) YooperYankDude]

[Raven180]

I'm thinking out loud here, Raven. It's not like I have all the answers.

All is well. No worries.

Music is, or at least can be, a pretty hot button topic. I know my inner circle of people talk about it all the time. Some of us tend toward a more extreme view, I would say, when it comes to the purpose and place of music in worship and the Christian life.

In terms of songs about what God has done for us, those are great. A song like "He set me free, yes, He set me free..." is a great song. I will sing it all day long. Although it may seem to be about what God did for me, it' really about Him and what He did to free us, ergo, it's about Him. But take a song like "I know who I am, I know who I am...I am Yours...". No offense to anyone who likes that song, but it doesn't do much to glorify God in my opinion, but rather glorifies our relationship with Him, which is a mistake in my estimation.

Our relationship with God is important. It is, or can be emotional at times. But it's by His grace that we have it. It's not automatic. It's not a right. It's a privilege. Boasting too much about our relationship leads to arrogancy and superiority. While it's good to know who we are in Christ, it's better to know Christ and to exalt Him as Lord.

Where I live, music in worship, especially at camps and conferences, is becoming more about personal catharsis and self-esteem boosting. The power and anointing of God doesn't fall as much, the preaching suffers, and altar calls become almost a waste of time. It's akin to talking more about "great men of God" rather than talking about the "great God of men". This plays out in music. It's almost like our worship, i.e. the act itself, that is extravagant, as opposed to the object of our worship deserving an extravagant amount of praise and adoration.

Like prayer, when the focus is too much on self, the results are stagnating and unsatisfactory.

[yosemite]

^^^^^^ i like that post raven!!!



the song service is a ministry as well. as much care goes into the message, so should care be given to the song ministry.                      -YO

[Melody]

though we have not all had the same experiences, I think there is place for shared rejoicing in testimonies, often there is a truth that rings true in our lives though it may not be the same experience, it is still present in us.  We sing the songs of the redeemed.  I have not seen with my eyes a crimson stream of blood, but when I think of calvary, I very much have a mental image and it blesses my soul similiarly, which is the purpose of sharing art.

I have not stood on the Mt. of Olives (?) like Clint Brown, but I very much feel "'Zion' calling me to a higher place of praise..."  

I suppose if we were always so very literal and everything had to be physical, your point would be validated.  Since, however, art is very much about carrying a message, the details are not the focal point, but merely a tool in which to convey the message.  Jesus used parables to show truths all the time, and I'm sure somewhere in the world there was good seed falling on all types of ground, but whether or not each person witnessed it to be able to repeat it is irrelevant.

it can be the 1st person's experience and every one else's metaphor.

I agree that much music today is so word picture oriented that it can lack anointing without more practical Word, but that just means we need far more balance, which we all agree.  It would not be very beneficial to always preach out of Psalms either but it doesn't discount all the mushy things David recited/sang.  I have to sit back when someone starts to complain of something and consider whether the thing they have issue with should be done completely away with or just needs more balance.

My church sings probably mostly the songs you are referring to, but there is an anointing.  Life changing anointing not just feel good charisma.  And yes, after being pressured by spirits or just life, a person comes into the strength of the body and is reminded and better able to encourage themself that they indeed DO know who they are, they are His, and Jesus is theirs.  Maybe where you're from people just feel all hoity toity over it but I've seen and myself have been mightily blessed by that song when the enemy or even maybe my own carnal insecurity tries to bring condemnation upon me. Romans is an entire book revisiting what it is that happened when salvation took place, delving deeper and reinforcing that we are indeed saved and changed and go forward by faith and grace.  We are not slaves to sin any longer, we are a royal priesthood.  It may not be quoting a scripture but it is restating a truth.  Perhaps therein lies the issue, some fail to recognize the truths behind art because it doesn't quote in verbatim, scriptures.  Many songs are just singing about a truth, in a personal way.


A true worshipper will not get around talking/singing of their relationship with Jesus and testifying of his goodness!  It's not false bragging and making us superior by saying it, but those who walk with God ARE advantaged, DO have more than don't.  I suppose on how you look at it, we aren't better, but we are better off.


Psa 68:19   Blessed [be] the Lord, [who] daily loadeth us [with benefits, even] the God of our salvation. Selah.  

Psa 44:8 In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah.

Psa 44:4a   Thou art my King, O God:          (You are mine)

[SippinTea]

Raven and Mellow, you both brought some interesting things into the conversation. Since we all seem to agree that emotion is valid is worship (even if our faith cannot be based on it) what, in your opinion, is the role of heart-attitude in relation to worship songs that have more of an emotional appeal? Do you think that if our heart-attitude is "off" (and therefore our worship), the song is "off"... while at the same time if our heart-attitude is correct (and therefore our worship of Him), the song is somehow "more valid" - even if it IS more along the lines of a "touchy-feely" song?

Interested in hearing your views on this one.

(And Raven, I have a number of musician friends that I discuss this stuff with often too. Iron sharpens iron.)

[Melody]

sometimes I think that if we are grafted into Israel then their history is ours.  Is there also a correlation between others in the body that their victories are also ours collectively?

[Melody]

I think that is a good question Ruby.  I think those are relevant variables along with also the "spirit" as a whole in that service.  Sometimes the general attitude ruins what could otherwise be a blessing.

[titushome]

I agree that too much of what passes as "worship" music is really about me, and how I feel, and my relationship with God, than it is about God himself.  Not that there isn't a place for songs with such messages - they just aren't really worship songs.  A song like "The Heart of Worship," for example, isn't so much itself worship as it is about worship.

Worship songs should focus on God and direct all our thoughts toward him.  He alone is holy, is exalted, is worthy, is God.

[The Cold Water Kid]

Raven's last post expresses what I have been seeing and feeling but not understanding. You too Titushome.

I wasn't raised in an apostolic church (or any other for that matter). I spent time in a couple of Charismatic churches on my way to truth. My gut tells me that's where these songs are coming from, the Charismatics, but I can't say for certain.

[Raven180]

I suppose on how you look at it, we aren't better, but we are better off.

Excellently stated.

I don't really have a personal problem with any one song or another. I just think the context is what matters. It is good to know, remember, and testify of our experiences and what the Scriptures indicate is our place in the divine fellowship between God and man.

However, I recognize that, just like the Psalms, each song has it's place or category, and as songs of adoration and worship, some work and some do not (in my opinion). Some work more on a personal level, useful for prayer time and devotions at home. Some work in congregational worship. Some work no matter where they are. Some probably don't work so much at all.

There is also the personal bias and favorites quotient to be factored in. But above all, I see the following verses as the litmus test of praise and worship songs:

Isaiah 42:8.

8. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

If we are ever co-mingling ourselves into the equation, and glorifying something other than God, like our relationship with Him, or who and what we are, or basically, defining Him in terms of US, and OUR relationship, then, as far as being a worship song, it misses. It may not be an evil song, but it won't help accomplish what a worship service is supposed to accomplish: the exaltation and adoration of the King of kings.

Jeremiah 9:24.

24. But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Again, if we are glorying in something other than this, I question it. We can certainly glory in knowing and understanding God and Who He is, but that revelation only comes as a privilege. We do not stand on equal footing with our Creator. He is supreme. Without Him we are nothing.

Galatians 6:14.

14. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Too often we sing and boast about being saved, and not enough about the Savior that saved us. It is good to rejoice, don't get me wrong, but not, as you pointed out, in such an unbalanced way that we dismiss or ignore Who did the saving in the first place.

I'm not saying that every worship service must be a down on our face, weeping in the presence of the Lord while crying "Unworthy!" type of service.

But our joy, our peace, our love, our emotional health and general well being, indeed every aspect of our testimony is only understood and definable when it is understood and defined in terms of the Lord Jesus Christ. And I am finding that many songs, which we sing but are coming out of the evangelical/charismatic world are denigrating Christ's role in order to soothe the flesh and help us to feel loveable and worthy of God's grace.

Paul gloried in his infirmities, i.e. that he was weak, unloveable, not deserving of God's grace, a chief sinner without the Savior, etc. When's the last time anyone heard a song like that???

Instead we have songs like "I am a friend of God", "I'm a Pentecostal", "I am the righteousness of Christ", and many like, which, in their own place and context are not necessarily bad, but they leave much to be desired when it comes to boasting about the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity, whose name is holy.

[Raven180]

sometimes I think that if we are grafted into Israel then their history is ours.  Is there also a correlation between others in the body that their victories are also ours collectively?

We rejoice with them that rejoice. I know a brother who preached once upon a time about healing, and since this is a Body of believers, when one is healed, the Body is healed, and therefore, we are all healed as well.

That seems to tie into what you're saying and seems valid.

[Raven180]

Raven and Mellow, you both brought some interesting things into the conversation. Since we all seem to agree that emotion is valid is worship (even if our faith cannot be based on it) what, in your opinion, is the role of heart-attitude in relation to worship songs that have more of an emotional appeal? Do you think that if our heart-attitude is "off" (and therefore our worship), the song is "off"... while at the same time if our heart-attitude is correct (and therefore our worship of Him), the song is somehow "more valid" - even if it IS more along the lines of a "touchy-feely" song?

I think we are too dependent upon a song or a group of songs to lead and/or motivate us to worship God. How many times do people wait for the bridge or for a key change before they get "moved on"?

How many times have you seen the adoration of God drop off the moment the music stops?

So, heart-attitude may have less to do with the type of song and more to do with how much praise is resident in that particular person. Praise really means to appraise, i.e. to assign value. If the praise of a person toward God is dependent upon the music playing, rather than upon the value they personally assign to God, then the problem lies there. And what I mean is, it shouldn't matter what song is or is not playing. Music shouldn't determine the heart-attitude. Knowledge of the holy and an understanding of Who and What God is should be sufficient. Music is good, and plays a key role, but a person should be able to worship and not have their worship be off, no matter what song is or isn't playing.

With that said, I admit that the wrong songs at the wrong moment can have an overall negative impact on the worship as a whole, but that may be attributed more to how much the Spirit pulls back when the service stops reflecting God's glory for something else.

[Melody]

However, I recognize that, just like the Psalms, each song has it's place or category, and as songs of adoration and worship, some work and some do not (in my opinion). Some work more on a personal level, useful for prayer time and devotions at home. Some work in congregational worship. Some work no matter where they are. Some probably don't work so much at all.


......Instead we have songs like "I am a friend of God", "I'm a Pentecostal", "I am the righteousness of Christ", and many like, which, in their own place and context are not necessarily bad, but they leave much to be desired when it comes to boasting about the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity, whose name is holy.

This I completely agree with.  I think there are enough variable to consider and our own personal tastes that affect what we deem as profitable songs.  But there are some where I'm kind of scratching my head thinking, "in order to sing this song I can't worship, and in order to worship, I can't sing this song."  lol  Like the ones that say come on and worship the Lord.  Singing it seems counter productive, we'd think people would worship instead of singing about getting ready to worship but usually people sing the song and thus can't worship!  hahaha

Friend of God is ok, but I loathe the I'm a Pentecostal song, for the very reasons you've already explained.  One thing I appreciate about my church is that when service starts, so does worship, often before the 1 key is played, and most certainly it seems more sometimes when the song is over before the next one starts.  We've even have times where the music just stops and we just give praise to God for a good couple of minutes.  Music is a wonderful beautiful thing, but it isn't necessary.  So since we have music, it needs to be carefully considered for it's conduciveness for the best worship possible.  That is what makes music leaders great, when they are sensitive to the H.G. to lead and inspire the rest of the Church toward balanced worship.

[Melody]

oops, I posted the same thing twice!

[The Cold Water Kid]

Maybe the idea is to create an atmosphere where Charismatics will feel comfortable and thereby gradually be won over?

[nwlife]

Just as long as it's not rick pino doing the song you spin me like a record lord, or the other group that does the holy ghost hokey pokey that I found on youtube...

[Raven180]

But there are some where I'm kind of scratching my head thinking, "in order to sing this song I can't worship, and in order to worship, I can't sing this song."

Preaching to the choir on that one. My wife has said almost identical words. Some of these songs, because of their content and message, aren't really conducive to leading people into worship, and so, by the very nature of the song, it causes difficulty. Granted, like I said, worship shouldn't be dependent upon a song, but a song can seriously hurt or at least negatively affect people's ability to worship, especially in song or in music, since that's the song currently blaring out at 150 decibels.