Is Speaking in Tongues necessary for Bible Salvation

[Luke 7:35]

Since the Bible says that "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:9 Does it not say that we MUST have the Holy Ghost in order to be saved and therefore If we do not speak in tongues we cannot know that we are filled with the Holy Ghost and therefore are not yet saved?

Personally I believe that the initial outward evidence of being filled with the Holy Ghost. I recently did a study on Mark chapter 16 and found that the sign following believers included "Speaking in Tongues". A new Global Forum on Speaking in Tongues
It has just begun in Australia. It is to be found here: http://speakingintonguesforum.aimoo.com/General-Discussion/What-is-Speaking-in-Tongues-1-59261.html

One example of the types of posts is as follows:

MARK CHAPTER 16

On the surface Mark chapter 16 appears to clearly say that believers will speak in tongues. Upon further investigation however the following question arises.
If Speaking in Tongues accompanies ALL believers, then the same must be said of the other four signs listed herein. How can this be rationalised in the scriptures?
The answer becomes apparent upon close examination of the way in which these signs were apparent in the early church. Consider the following:

The 5 Signs that follow Believers are:

1) Casting out Devils
2) Speaking in Tongues
3) Taking up Serpents
4) Drinking Poison &
5) Laying hands on the sick

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mar 16:17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they 1) cast out devils; they shall 2) speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18  They shall 3) take up serpents; and 4) if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall 5) lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:20  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Looking in the word of God, especially New testament lets see the signs following doctrine in action.

1) Casting out devils    
Act 16:17  The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation.
Act 16:18  And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. (Clearly the Apostle Paul exercised this sign) This is not questioned. The fact is that those who are filled with his (God's) Holy Spirit are filled with light. We read in 1 John...1Jo 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

2) Speaking in new tongues
There are several accounts of this sign following believers: Acts 2:4, Acts10:44 and  Acts 19:1-5 are obvious examples.

3) They shall take up serpents
Only one Biblical case of a serpent or viper confronting one of the Apostles in the NT  Acts 28:3-7   Certainly there were no acts of "Taking up" serpents. Some translations translate Mark 16:18  {they will pick up snakes in their hands} ISV This flies in the face of verses like; Matt 4:7 (see below) Perhaps a better application can be found by exploring the Acts of the Apostles through whom these signs would be evident.

Mat 4:6  And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Mat 4:7  Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Further we read in Luke... Luke 10:17  And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Luk 10:19  Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
In this passage Jesus give a clear picture that a) "Power to tread on Serpents" is the defined as having "Power over the enemy" We all know who the enemy is don't we! ...Further we read in the Psalms...Psa 140:3  They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah. Psa 140:4  Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from the violent man; who have purposed to overthrow my goings.

Here again the Psalmist defines the "Violent Man" as having Tongues like Serpents. If this seems unclear breaking the term up in the Greek can be helpfull.

A) The Act { taking up}
I have highlighted the translation I believe is supported by evidentury substance in the Bible
αἴρω  airo  ah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, expose, take (away, up).

Above I have underscored the meaning "Make to doubt". This is the way that the same word αἴρω was translated in John 10:24 as follows:
John 10:24  Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? ( αἴρω  airo ) If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
Further in Matthew we read:
Mat 21:21  Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed,( αἴρω  airo ) and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Thirdly in Luke we read:

Luke 17:12  And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: Luke 17:13  And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
Act 4:24  And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice ,( αἴρω  airo )to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Act 21:36  For the multitude of the people followed after, crying, Away with him. And the very next chapter...Act 22:22  And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

I believe it is plain to see that the term "Take up" realy speaks to confronting and defeating the power of the enemy. This can ofen mean religious leaders.

Next we will look at the Object being "Taken up".

B) The object { Serpents}
When it comes to the term "Serpents I do not need to elaborate at all. A simple cursary glance at a handfull of scriptures clearly defines what Jesus was really talking about.

Mat 23:33  Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luk 10:19  Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
1Co 10:9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Rev 9:19  For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Psa 58:4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Psa 140:3  They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah. I really do not need to say any more. Serpents are those who speak not according to God's word. The things that they say is poison because it leads to death.

4) Drinking any Deadly thing:
The word used here for "Drink" is (πίνω, πίω, πόω pino  pio  poo) pee'-no, pee'-o, po'-o)
The first is a prolonged form of the second, which (together with the third form) occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses; to imbibe (literally or figuratively): - drink. To: imbibe; absorb; Take in & Keep Mentally; {The deadly poison of the World!}
Similar to "Serpents" the term "Poison" or "Drinking" are figurative terms representing the potentially deadly words of false teachers. Consider the following:

Jam 3:5  Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! Jam 3:6  And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity; so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. Jam 3:7  For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: Jam 3:8  But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom 3:13  Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Rom 3:14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psa 58:4  Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Lastly I will repeat Psalm 140 in full:
Psa 140:1  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man; Psa 140:2  Which imagine mischiefs in their heart; continually are they gathered together for war. Psa 140:3  They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah.

5) They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover:

Act 5:15  Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. Act 5:16  There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. Act 5:17  Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
Notice that the religious leaders who did not possess the signs following "rose up" in "Indignation"
Jam 5:14  Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: Jam 5:15  And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Jam 5:16  Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Jesus went on to say... Mar 16:20  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. There are many doctrines being presented today and often they lack the signs that Jesus pronounced would "Confirm" the words being spoken as being from God. Jesus had similarly said in... Luke 10:19  Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Jesus did this by giving us "Power" he repeated this promise in Acts Chapter one...

Act 1:4  And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. Act 1:5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Act 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Act 1:7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Act 1:8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

This occurred on the Day of Pentecost when as we read in Acts Chapter two... Act 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Act 2:2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. Act 2:3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. This event marked the beginning of the Church. Just as Jesus had promised this event was confirmed as being from God by the "Sign" of Speaking in Tongues. A few verses later Peter standing up to explain what this meant says the following:

Act 2:37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

This question could just as well be asked today and the answer would not be any different today as it was on that day.  Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Act 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Act 2:42  And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Act 2:43  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. Act 2:44  And all that believed were together, and had all things common; Act 2:45  And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Act 2:46  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Act 2:47  Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Those that were added to the Church in verses 41 & 47 could only have been added to the Church by the Spirit. As we read in 1Corinthians 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

In the end it is up to the individual as to whether or not they wish to believe that Jesus confirms his word with EACH AND EVERY Christian with SIGNS FOLLOWING. The concept of God confirming his word by signs following is not a new one. This is exactly the way that God confirmed his word with Elijah in the Old Testament. In that case we read. 1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. 1Ki 18:22  Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men. 1Ki 18:23  Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: 1Ki 18:24  And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken. The New Testament equivalent of the confirmation by God with "Fire from Heaven" is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is why when Jesus spoke of the Apostles receiving "Power" he referred to what John had said ...Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: So it comes as no surprise that shortly after Jesus recounted this for the Apostles in Act 1:5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. That Fire from Heaven did indeed fall (figuratively speaking) "there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them"  The question then must be Has God answered you "By Fire" has Jesus confirmed his word in you "By signs following" If the answer is NO. Then is just possible that you have fallen victim to what Jesus warned us in Matthew chapter 24 verse 11 would come in these last days..."And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many". Remember that Paul warned us as well in 2nd Timothy 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Don't accept anything less than the Full, 100% sure Gospel that was preached and confirmed on the Day of Pentecost and is currently being experienced by millions worldwide today.

God Bless

Luke 7:35

[Scott]

You need to break up long posts into smaller posts to make them easier to read.

[gospelgirl]

Yes one sure must speak in tongues!
Its NOT the baptist way, accept Jesus Christ as personal saviour and walaaaaaaaaaaa!

What I dont get are those that argue this.There is such  fear I think.There afraid of how they might act.

[yosemite]

Yes one sure must speak in tongues!
Its NOT the baptist way, accept Jesus Christ as personal saviour and walaaaaaaaaaaa!

What I dont get are those that argue this.There is such  fear I think.There afraid of how they might act.

i agree with the speaking in tongues and since we are talking language (so to speak) since you brought it up:

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

if you notice the baptist wear this verse except they take the word should and exchange it for the word shall. i was raised baptist and have some insight to what they believe. they think the era of the apostles is over and such miracles are too. of course there are no direct scriptures for this, unless taken out of context. some are even reworded like the one above. the biggest reason baptists and all others argue this is cause they dont read their Bibles. they take another mans word for truth.

My mom, who i have tried to teach has recently asked me if i believe i/we should be baptized. i told her yes and showed her the scripture. with tears streaming down her face she rejected the teaching of direct scripture cause it went against her baptist doctrine and all she has heard from the baptist pullpit. hmmm! what happened to trust no man lest he deceive you.

on the matter of John 3:16
beleiveth is an actionary word. it is meant for more than a face value word. who do you believe? what did they stand for? what morals or rules did they hold? if you truly believe then you will follow all comands of said belief.
the just believe as in just a mental capacity thing dont work. satan believes in Jesus. are we gonna see him in Heaven?

should is a word that means chance. its like it almost implies a but. you should not perish but....
shall takes away the chance. you shall not perish.

the almost funny but terribly sad part is that a couple of great movies that were made by some baptists also quoted this scripture wrongly and it was on their screen for all to read and has led many others to misquote the verse also.

[Raven180]

I would say the question is more fundamental than this.

It's not "Is speaking in tongues necessary for Bible salvation?". To me, that's the wrong question.

Rather, I would ask, Is being baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit necessary for salvation?

One can then augment the original question to look something like this: Is speaking in tongues necessary for proving the Bible evidence of Holy Spirit baptism?

With these two questions, you have two "yes's", which make for a stronger case.

Otherwise, if it's only relegated to "tongues", then speaking in tongues becomes the evidence of salvation, as opposed to the atonement of Jesus Christ received by grace through faith. There are a whole mess of "tongue-talkers" in the world, but not all of them are saved. But there is the few in number who have found the narrow, strait way to eternal life, and they all have spoken, and/or do speak in tongues.

See the difference?

[Mark2010]

No, absolutely not. If it were, Jesus would have said so.

[yosemite]

No, absolutely not. If it were, Jesus would have said so.

you may be in the wrong place for that comment. then again, maybe not. depends on what the admin let you get away with on your stand on tongues. this is (mostly) an apostolic discussion board. we believe in tongues as an evidence of the infilling of the Holy Ghost (or at least me and mine do).


not gonna do it!! somebody else can chime in here.

   

[onli-one-jehovi]

No, absolutely not. If it were, Jesus would have said so.

you may be in the wrong place for that comment. then again, maybe not. depends on what the admin let you get away with on your stand on tongues. this is (mostly) an apostolic discussion board. we believe in tongues as an evidence of the infilling of the Holy Ghost (or at least me and mine do).


not gonna do it!! somebody else can chime in here.

   

Sooooo

Rather than searchingly discuss what the context of the Bible tells us.....

we censor anyone who doesn't agree with the apostolic denomination?

   


Yes, this board is operated by a Spirit-filled portion of the Body of Christ.

Yes, the conclusions do tend to be "across-the-board" members wise.

No, it shouldn't be censored just to pander to infantile sensibilities of some who cannot handle biblical truth that undercuts their accepted doctrine.

Yes, that includes all doctrines of all denominations, and all members of the Body of Christ; "apostolic" or not.

When you're open to the Body - you deal with the Body.

Otherwise, do a more stringent background search, police every poster, cancel memberships, censor like crazy, and become a Secret Society Cult.

That's my 2 cents. 

[Mark2010]

The question, as I read it, was "is it NECESSARY (required) to speak in tongues for salvation"? Absolutely, 100 percent no!! I have many friends who are devote Christians who have never spoken in tongues. does that negate their faith in Christ?

All throughout the New Testament, it is clear that faith in Christ is what is required for salvation. Not anything else.

Look, I think tongues and spiritual gifts are wonderful. They are tools to help Christians in their walk while on this earth. But to put them in the place of faith for salvation is incorrect.

As adults, we should all be able to agree to disagree and remain friends. I would not want to be part of a community where freedom of thought and freedom of speech are not encouraged. You will never find me attacking or ridiculing another person's belief and I expect my views to be respected as well.

[(R.I.P.) YooperYankDude]

Hey Mark2010... welcome to GP... 

In reference to your comment...

Acts 19:1-3 KJV
(1)  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
(2)  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(3)  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Question... How were you baptized?

[yosemite]

No, absolutely not. If it were, Jesus would have said so.

you may be in the wrong place for that comment. then again, maybe not. depends on what the admin let you get away with on your stand on tongues. this is (mostly) an apostolic discussion board. we believe in tongues as an evidence of the infilling of the Holy Ghost (or at least me and mine do).


not gonna do it!! somebody else can chime in here.

   

Sooooo

Rather than searchingly discuss what the context of the Bible tells us.....

we censor anyone who doesn't agree with the apostolic denomination?

   


Yes, this board is operated by a Spirit-filled portion of the Body of Christ.

Yes, the conclusions do tend to be "across-the-board" members wise.

No, it shouldn't be censored just to pander to infantile sensibilities of some who cannot handle biblical truth that undercuts their accepted doctrine.

Yes, that includes all doctrines of all denominations, and all members of the Body of Christ; "apostolic" or not.

When you're open to the Body - you deal with the Body.

Otherwise, do a more stringent background search, police every poster, cancel memberships, censor like crazy, and become a Secret Society Cult.

That's my 2 cents. 

i am a bit brash and blunt and a bit arguminitive about what i believe. i was only trying to let others chime in cause they may be more sensitive to the question and handle it a little better than I. thats all OOJ. no big spill or indepth thought required from or on your behalf was nessesary. thanks, Allen

[Mark2010]

Hey Mark2010... welcome to GP... 

In reference to your comment...

Acts 19:1-3 KJV
(1)  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
(2)  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(3)  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Question... How were you baptized?

My understanding of the verses quoted on Acts 19 is that they are referring to Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Paul met these believers (who were already converted to Christianity) and asked if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed. This tells me that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was and often can be a separate and distinct event aside from and after salvation.

I could ask the same question to many Christians today: "Have you received the Holy Ghose since you believed?" Many would say no. Fine, it doesn't negate the fact that they did believe. Heck, there are a lot of Christians who have never been baptized in water, either. Yet they are still true Christians.

[jfrog]

Yes one sure must speak in tongues!
Its NOT the baptist way, accept Jesus Christ as personal saviour and walaaaaaaaaaaa!

What I dont get are those that argue this.There is such  fear I think.There afraid of how they might act.

Many people that are against the doctrine of initial evidence tongues are those that either have spoken in tongues before or still speak in tongues.

[bishopnl]

No, it shouldn't be censored just to pander to infantile sensibilities of some who cannot handle biblical truth that undercuts their accepted doctrine.

I believe receiving the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, is necessary for the salvation of every believer.  I don't believe in censoring people from discussing openly and honestly, but the way you've worded this makes it appear that everyone who believes as I do possesses "infantile sensibilities."  I accept that you may not see things the way I do, but I find it irritating that the implication seems to be those who don't agree with you are slobbering juveniles who aren't as spiritually mature as you.  I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but nevertheless, it certainly comes across that way.  You might want to consider for future postings how the use of words such as "infantile" can be perceived.

Mark:

You make the statement:  "The question, as I read it, was "is it NECESSARY (required) to speak in tongues for salvation"? Absolutely, 100 percent no!! I have many friends who are devote Christians who have never spoken in tongues. does that negate their faith in Christ?"

I think Raven summed it up a few posts prior to yours.

It's not "Is speaking in tongues necessary for Bible salvation?". To me, that's the wrong question.

Rather, I would ask, Is being baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit necessary for salvation?

Perhaps you believe there is a distinction between baptism of the Holy Spirit and being "filled" with the Spirit.  Paul asked the question, "have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?"  Since the answer was clearly no, it lets us know that just believing does not = reception of the Spirit.  Romans 8:9 tells us that if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.  Receiving the Spirit is ESSENTIAL for every person who believes on Christ.  It's a non-negotiable.  If you don't have the Spirit, you are none of His.

So that leaves us with the second part of Raven's question. 

"Is speaking in tongues necessary for proving the Bible evidence of Holy Spirit baptism?"

This has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, although I certainly would not censor anyone from discussing it again.  I think contextual evidence of scripture shows that tongues is a part of receiving the Spirit, in the same way that getting wet is part of being baptized. 

Being baptized and receiving the Spirit are essential elements of a person's faith in Christ.  We can argue ins and outs regarding salvation all day, but I contend that even if you feel  a person is saved merely by confessing faith in Christ, there is an overwhelming amount of scriptural evidence commanding us to be baptized and receive the Spirit.  Perhaps there are many who have a misplaced emphasis on seeking tongues, but that in no way negates the experience.

[onli-one-jehovi]

No, it shouldn't be censored just to pander to infantile sensibilities of some who cannot handle biblical truth that undercuts their accepted doctrine.

I believe receiving the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, is necessary for the salvation of every believer.  I don't believe in censoring people from discussing openly and honestly, but the way you've worded this makes it appear that everyone who believes as I do possesses "infantile sensibilities."  I accept that you may not see things the way I do, but I find it irritating that the implication seems to be those who don't agree with you are slobbering juveniles who aren't as spiritually mature as you.  I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but nevertheless, it certainly comes across that way.  You might want to consider for future postings how the use of words such as "infantile" can be perceived.

If the word "infantile" offends you... accept my apologies.

And no... I do not believe anyone who doesn't agree with me are "slobbering juveniles who aren't as spiritually mature as you".

I do believe that the Church is full of "infants" "outer court functionaries."

Again... my apologies. I hope the desire of being a Christian is stronger than being an apostolic.

They definitely are not the same thing.  :grin:

[bishopnl]

It's not the use of the word "infantile" that bothers me.

Your statement as it is written seems to suggest that those who don't agree with you just can't handle "biblical" truth and possess "infantile sensibilities."  Disagreement doesn't relegate your opponent to being "infantile."  Again, I doubt this is what you meant, but it's the way it comes across.

And I believe discussion forums are full of confused people who believe they have a handle on Truth, but in reality have little understanding of it.  It's up to the discerning believer to imitate the Bereans and immerse themselves in the Word of God.

[yosemite]

  ((((I hope the desire of being a Christian is stronger than being an apostolic.))))

this is what stumps me. they were first called Christians!! what were they called before? I believe that apostolic is as much a title for the true born as Christian is a title. I hold to the foundational roots that the apostles taught, therefore a apostolic.

so many false doctrines have taken on the title Christian and wanting nothing to do with his name, i dont know if i want to associate to that term. Apostolics taught Jesus and lived Jesus. I feel honored to be of those who worship Jesus in truth and in spirit. of course it is a title of men, but who were the men? they were the foundation upon the rock. they had no power of there own save that of Jesus through them. what better a title that could be as level as Christian!!

Lu 6:48  He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

call me Christian or apostolic or call me for dinner, just as long as you call me gone when Jesus returns!! maybe even quickend or follower or Jesus freak, Holy roller, bible thumper, dont matter to me. PRAISE THE LORD!!! I'm bout ta get happy here thank ya Jesus!!!!!!!!!

[jfrog]

No, it shouldn't be censored just to pander to infantile sensibilities of some who cannot handle biblical truth that undercuts their accepted doctrine.

I believe receiving the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, is necessary for the salvation of every believer.  I don't believe in censoring people from discussing openly and honestly, but the way you've worded this makes it appear that everyone who believes as I do possesses "infantile sensibilities."  I accept that you may not see things the way I do, but I find it irritating that the implication seems to be those who don't agree with you are slobbering juveniles who aren't as spiritually mature as you.  I'm sure this isn't what you meant, but nevertheless, it certainly comes across that way.  You might want to consider for future postings how the use of words such as "infantile" can be perceived.

Mark:

You make the statement:  "The question, as I read it, was "is it NECESSARY (required) to speak in tongues for salvation"? Absolutely, 100 percent no!! I have many friends who are devote Christians who have never spoken in tongues. does that negate their faith in Christ?"

I think Raven summed it up a few posts prior to yours.

It's not "Is speaking in tongues necessary for Bible salvation?". To me, that's the wrong question.

Rather, I would ask, Is being baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit necessary for salvation?

Perhaps you believe there is a distinction between baptism of the Holy Spirit and being "filled" with the Spirit.  Paul asked the question, "have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?"  Since the answer was clearly no, it lets us know that just believing does not = reception of the Spirit.  Romans 8:9 tells us that if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.  Receiving the Spirit is ESSENTIAL for every person who believes on Christ.  It's a non-negotiable.  If you don't have the Spirit, you are none of His.

So that leaves us with the second part of Raven's question.  

"Is speaking in tongues necessary for proving the Bible evidence of Holy Spirit baptism?"

This has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere, although I certainly would not censor anyone from discussing it again.  I think contextual evidence of scripture shows that tongues is a part of receiving the Spirit, in the same way that getting wet is part of being baptized.  

Being baptized and receiving the Spirit are essential elements of a person's faith in Christ.  We can argue ins and outs regarding salvation all day, but I contend that even if you feel  a person is saved merely by confessing faith in Christ, there is an overwhelming amount of scriptural evidence commanding us to be baptized and receive the Spirit.  Perhaps there are many who have a misplaced emphasis on seeking tongues, but that in no way negates the experience.

If you believe A is necessary for B.  And if you believe that C is necessary for A then the syllogism A -> B and C -> A then C -> B is applicable.  So, if you believe that the Holy Ghost baptism is necessary for salvation and if you believe that the evidence of tongues is necessary in order for someone to have the Holy Ghost, then it is logical to conclude that you believe that the evidence of tongues is necessary for salvation.  Personally I don't know why people try to deny that these premises lead to that conclusion?

[Mark2010]

I personally do not believe that being baptized in water or of the Holy Spirit is a prerequisite for salvation. My belief is that both can come afterward.

As I posted earlier, I know MANY Christians who do not speak in tongues. I'm certainly not negating their faith and salvation experience.

I tend to be a broad thinker. If, as some has suggested, that only those who speak in tongues are saved, that limits the list considerably. Not wanting to go down that road.

[yosemite]

I personally do not believe that being baptized in water or of the Holy Spirit is a prerequisite for salvation. My belief is that both can come afterward.

As I posted earlier, I know MANY Christians who do not speak in tongues. I'm certainly not negating their faith and salvation experience.

I tend to be a broad thinker. If, as some has suggested, that only those who speak in tongues are saved, that limits the list considerably. Not wanting to go down that road.

neither do i negate it, but it dont line up with the word. i tend not to be so broad in my own thinking, nor do i tend to enlarge myself in false doctrine. here are a few stater verses.

Joh 15:7  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

mat 15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9  But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Isa 5:14  Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

mark 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

john 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

isa 28:9 ¶  Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11  For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12  To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

heb 5:11  Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[Raven180]

I didn't really have much more to add to this post from what I originally wrote, but, since I was quoted a few times, I figured I should chime in.

The if A = B, and B = C, then A = C syllogism is correct. I don't think anyone, at least those that believe that speaking in tongues is the only Bible evidence of Holy Spirit baptism, disagree or avoid it. I only point to how we have probably focused too much on tongues and not enough on Spirit baptism. It would be better to preach and seek being filled with the Holy Spirit then it is to simply "speak in tongues". It's only a question of emphasis. I've met people that call the Holy Spirit "tongues". Kids who seek the Holy Spirit sometimes are so confused and cannot receive It because of the misinformation and poor choice of emphasis.

Secondly, I like that Romans 8:9 was brought up. It's not the only proof text, but it might be the best one. Everyone wanting to be a Christian must line up with "...if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you". Why? Because if the Spirit of God does not dwell in someone, then they are in the flesh, and those in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:8 ) which means that they don't have faith, because without faith it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6), hence they are not saved by grace according to Ephesians 2:8.

And in order to line up with Romans 8:9, one needs to go all the way back to Joel 2:28. Yes we can look in Mark 16, or in Acts, or wherever, but God promised that when He poured out His Spirit upon all flesh they would, I repeat, they WOULD prophesy. If God poured His Spirit out on you, me, or any other person, and we did not prophesy, the prophet is a liar, and God's Word is not true. Peter makes it pretty clear in Acts 2:16-17 that speaking in tongues is how one "prophesies" so as to fulfill Joel 2:28. Since, just ten days before this event, Jesus had just ascended to heaven promising the gift of the Holy Ghost (Luke 24:49) and for forty days prior to that, He taught the Apostles things pertaining to the Kingdom of God (which is the Holy Spirit - Romans 14:17) according to Acts 1:3, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Jesus taught them how to correctly interpret Joel 2:28 so that, when it came to pass, Peter would be able to explain what was happening to those people who witnessed it. And, then, as an added reminder, just before He ascended, He told them that those who believe in His name would, quite literally "in tongues speak new things" (Mark 16:16).

So, just for a moment, everyone needs to ask themselves, did I personally experience Joel 2:28? Did I prophesy at any time when I received the Holy Spirit? And if so, does my prophetic utterance match what Peter said, and most likely also what Jesus taught His Apostles, that that prophetic utterance would be?

If we answer "no" to any of these questions, then we must be honest enough and love truth enough to realize that the Spirit of God does not dwell in us and we are still in the flesh, and do not have the kind of God-pleasing faith He requires in order to save us by His grace.

[BroTrey]

I personally do not believe that being baptized in water or of the Holy Spirit is a prerequisite for salvation. My belief is that both can come afterward.

Jesus would disagree with you. "5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." From the Jewish stand point, as Jesus was talking to a learned Jew and a teacher of the Law, this is undeniably referencing baptism and receiving the spirit of God.

As I posted earlier, I know MANY Christians who do not speak in tongues. I'm certainly not negating their faith and salvation experience.

Faith alone does not save, if it did the devils would be saved as they believe there iis one God, they believe Jesus is the savior....but they cannot nor would they ACT on that belief...  James talked about faith without works being dead.....there are works that we must do, and baptism is one of them.   Some people can be very sincere, but they can also be sincerely lost.

I tend to be a broad thinker. If, as some has suggested, that only those who speak in tongues are saved, that limits the list considerably. Not wanting to go down that road.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

There is no salvation outside of the way Jesus and his disciples taught in the scripture. EVERY time someone was saved under the time of grace, they have repented, been water baptized in Jesus name, and received the Holy Ghost. 

[yosemite]

way to go Bro Trey!! most eloquent and compasionatly spoken!! 

[sismargie]

AMEN Bro Trey

I am grateful for the Holy Ghost, and  according to the Bible, in the word of God it is required that we are baptized by water and fire (Holy Ghost).

There are things in the word that at times  I don't understand or something that God asks of us doesn't make sense to me, even Jesus when he knew he was going to be crusified he prayed "let this cup pass, but not my will, but let your will be done".  He didn't want to be crucified but it was the instruction of God.  Abraham did not want to do the burnt offering of  his son, I couldn't imagine but he was willing to obey God, even though God stopped him.

In the natural I cannot see what occurs when we are baptized, and I don't understand exactly what God is doing.  But God gives us directions and commandments and I believe and trust him even when I don't understand why he is telling me do something.  Who am I to tresspass God, I will not do that, he is God, it is his will not mine.

There are some things that I really did not want to comply with as I was coming to God, rebelious I can say.  When I learned that having faith is beleiving all the word of God is important and in believing I will obey him and surrender my will to him.  I am a living sacrifice, he is my teacher, father, saviour, creator, and Most of all he is God.  I believe God is looking for someone to be willing to obey his every word.

[jfrog]

I didn't really have much more to add to this post from what I originally wrote, but, since I was quoted a few times, I figured I should chime in.

The if A = B, and B = C, then A = C syllogism is correct. I don't think anyone, at least those that believe that speaking in tongues is the only Bible evidence of Holy Spirit baptism, disagree or avoid it. I only point to how we have probably focused too much on tongues and not enough on Spirit baptism. It would be better to preach and seek being filled with the Holy Spirit then it is to simply "speak in tongues". It's only a question of emphasis. I've met people that call the Holy Spirit "tongues". Kids who seek the Holy Spirit sometimes are so confused and cannot receive It because of the misinformation and poor choice of emphasis.

Secondly, I like that Romans 8:9 was brought up. It's not the only proof text, but it might be the best one. Everyone wanting to be a Christian must line up with "...if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you". Why? Because if the Spirit of God does not dwell in someone, then they are in the flesh, and those in the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:8 ) which means that they don't have faith, because without faith it is impossible to please Him (Hebrews 11:6), hence they are not saved by grace according to Ephesians 2:8.

And in order to line up with Romans 8:9, one needs to go all the way back to Joel 2:28. Yes we can look in Mark 16, or in Acts, or wherever, but God promised that when He poured out His Spirit upon all flesh they would, I repeat, they WOULD prophesy. If God poured His Spirit out on you, me, or any other person, and we did not prophesy, the prophet is a liar, and God's Word is not true. Peter makes it pretty clear in Acts 2:16-17 that speaking in tongues is how one "prophesies" so as to fulfill Joel 2:28. Since, just ten days before this event, Jesus had just ascended to heaven promising the gift of the Holy Ghost (Luke 24:49) and for forty days prior to that, He taught the Apostles things pertaining to the Kingdom of God (which is the Holy Spirit - Romans 14:17) according to Acts 1:3, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Jesus taught them how to correctly interpret Joel 2:28 so that, when it came to pass, Peter would be able to explain what was happening to those people who witnessed it. And, then, as an added reminder, just before He ascended, He told them that those who believe in His name would, quite literally "in tongues speak new things" (Mark 16:16).

So, just for a moment, everyone needs to ask themselves, did I personally experience Joel 2:28? Did I prophesy at any time when I received the Holy Spirit? And if so, does my prophetic utterance match what Peter said, and most likely also what Jesus taught His Apostles, that that prophetic utterance would be?

If we answer "no" to any of these questions, then we must be honest enough and love truth enough to realize that the Spirit of God does not dwell in us and we are still in the flesh, and do not have the kind of God-pleasing faith He requires in order to save us by His grace.

Maybe a few erroneously call the Holy Ghost tongues.  However, its far more amazing to me at how many apostolics I've spoken to that erroneously tell me that they believe the Holy Ghost is required for salvation and believe tongues are required for the Holy Ghost but then try to deny believing tongues are required for salvation.  I applaud you for not doing this!

Any time a person strings together one verse here and one verse there in order to make a doctrine it raises a red flag for me.  In fact, I can prove to you rather easily that people have faith and don't have the Holy Ghost.  Did you have the Holy Ghost when you were baptized?  Probably not.  Did you have faith when you were baptized?  If you didn't then you might should think about being rebaptized because baptism must be done with faith, otherwise you just got wet.

I am very glad you brought up the joel prophecy because, if his prophecy indicates anything is to accompany the Holy Ghost it indicates that prophecy instead of tongues are to accompany the reception Holy Ghost.  We also know that tongues and prophecy oftentimes are not the same thing.  1 Corinthians 14 shows this well.  So does Acts 19 where it says they spoke with tongues and prophesied.  In fact, 1 Corinthians 14 even tells us the difference between prophecy and tongues.  Prophecy is to men and tongues are to God unless there is an interpretor.  If there is an interpretor then tongues can be to men and can essentially serve the same purpose as prophecy.  If there is not an interpretor then tongues cannot be to men because such tongues are said to be to God and if what is being spoken is not to men then it is not prophecy.  The point is that the presence of tongues themselves doesn't imply prophecy but instead what is said in tongues may or may not be prophecy.  So in Acts 2 what do we find them saying in tongues?  Well, in Acts 2:11 we find they are speaking to men and that they are speaking of the wonderful works of God.  So it seems logical to conclude that speaking of the wonderful works of God is what fulfilled Joel's prophecy.  In Acts 10 we don't know if anyone understood the tongues they spoke so we don't know if they were speaking of the wonderful works of God in tongues to men or not.  We do know that they magnified God.  Magnifying God and speaking of the wonderful works of God could be the same thing even though one was done in tongues and one was not.  In Acts 19 we know they spoke in tongues and prophesied.  We don't know if anyone understood their tongues here either so we don't know if they were speaking of the wonderful works of God/Magnifying God in tongues to men or not.  We do know that they prophesied which we already concluded must have meant to be speaking of the wonderful work of God/Magnifying God to men.  Also, there is no context here to suggest that there prophesizing was in tongues.

Oh, I forgot one other thing.  There is not one bible translation that supports Mark 16:17 being "in tongues speak new things".  Here is a list of how a number of bibles render that verse http://bible.cc/mark/16-17.htm